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View Full Version : Help with grappling larger creatures (3.5)



Kelunas
2010-05-19, 10:52 AM
I'm a relatively new to DMing and am a bit puzzled exactly how I should rule this so I figured I would ask the experts. Whenever I throw a creature a few size categories larger than medium at the party, one of my players (barbarian) will try to leaps off a ledge to try and grab onto the creature and attack it while hanging on (shadow of the colossus style, even if the creature is in flight).

How exactly should I rule that? The grappling rules in the book are not exactly crystal clear on the subject. I assume there should be an attack of opportunity for entering it's space but then would it be a grapple or a climb? Is that part of his move action in which he jumped?

If it's a grapple it doesn't seem very fair (big bonuses for size category but he's not trying to pin the whole creature, just trying to grab on). If it's a climb check what kind of DC would you put? Can the creature oppose it somehow (shake it off or try to dodge him)?

A little help please...

Emmerask
2010-05-19, 11:27 AM
Such actions are not really covered by raw so we have to improvise a bit :smallwink:

First its a jump check to leap at the creature the dcs depends on a lot of things and can be found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm

Then a climb check to grab a hold again it depends on the creature in question slippery surface or good holds etc so again:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Climb_Skill :smallwink:

A balance check after that might be a good idea too though I would make this one a dc10-20 depending on the creature and on how well he did the climb check -1 for every point he comes over the climb dc for example.

The attack action depends a bit on how he wants to attack while hanging on?
Is he using a weapon and if yes what kind of weapon.

If its a small weapon like a dagger, shortsword or handaxe I would let him make a strength check to hang on while hitting.

If it is something bigger longsword etc a strength check + a medium difficult balance check.

If it is a two handed weapon the only real option would be a very difficult balance check.


Oh and yes I would give the creature an AoO :smallwink:

/edit Yes, I would also allow a shaking off action (movement action) strength check and balance check depending on how well the strength check went (ie again -1dc for every point above strength dc) if 0 obviously no balance required.

ProfMoriarty
2010-05-19, 11:35 AM
You can't initiate a grapple against something more than 1 size category larger (though it could initiate a grapple with you) so that’s completely out.

A huge creature will get AOO against the barbarian, for moving through threatened squares, though the barbarian could get tumble checks. If there is a 3 size category difference - medium to gargantuan or small to huge - then the barbarian could enter without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the size difference is smaller, then the giant will get an attack of opportunity.

After the barbarian has entered the giant's squares, you could fluff it as him fighting the giant shadow of the colossus style.

If you wanted to add challenge to this strategy you could give him climb or ride checks for the smaller giants and balance or ride checks to stay on a colossus sized creature, perhaps granting him soft cover (+4 AC), but this will be up to you.

Caphi
2010-05-19, 12:12 PM
This is actually a Tiger Claw maneuver in the Book of Nine Swords, Wolf Climbs the Mountain, so let's check that out.

As a full-round action, initiating the maneuver moves you into a large enemy's space. You then get a single attack, doing an extra 5d6 points of damage, and gain cover. However, if the enemy moves, he leaves you behind, provoking an attack of opportunity.

It is a level 6 maneuver, so some of those should probably be clipped. For one thing, initiating WCTM doesn't provoke, so feel free to add that back in to the barbarian's trick, and for another, you don't need the extra 5d6. For the rest, maybe soft cover instead of full cover (unless the creature is insanely big). Add some sort of check to do the initial grab, and have a climb check to stay on if the creature moves rather than having it automatically drop you.

PId6
2010-05-19, 12:20 PM
The Giantbane tactical feat from Complete Warrior seems to be perfect here. It lets you duck underneath a giant creature, stab it as you go past, and climb aboard its back. It takes a DC 10 Climb check to climb onto its back and it takes -4 to attack against you while you're there. It can try to shake you off with a grapple check opposed by our Climb check. It makes sense that you have to take a feat to do these things, since it takes training to perform stunts like these.

The feat is a bit weak by itself, so I'd houserule it to make it a bit better. First of all, ducking underneath should be doable if the foe doesn't attack you as well (rather than just attack and miss), and stabbing it from below should add extra damage, say equal to your Str or Dex modifier, whichever is higher. Climbing aboard should make the creature flat-footed against you as well and maybe take -2 to AC, since it's hard to dodge someone who's standing on your back stabbing you. Finally, I'd add a fourth option of Death from Above, which lets you leap from a nearby ledge or fall from a height on top of the monster. You have to make a Jump check to get on, equal to the distance you have to travel from the ledge or DC 15, if you're falling from above. It gets an AoO against you with your AC as your Jump result or your AC, whichever is higher. If it misses you, you can make a charge attack against it, and afterward you are lodged on its back as if you've climbed aboard.

Person_Man
2010-05-19, 12:26 PM
On a meta level, 3.5 is really bad about spur of the moment player creativity. You can do anything - as long as you have the right feat or spell. But if you suddenly want to Climb up your enemy and mess with him, you basically can't without a house rule.

In this case, the Giantbane feat lets your PC do what he wants, and Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk give similar "I screw bigger people" maneuvers. But if it's a one time thing, there's really no reason you shouldn't just let him make a Climb check to mount an enemy. Just remember that he provokes an attack of opportunity for moving into his enemy's square.