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Darklord Xavez
2010-05-19, 03:26 PM
I know what you're thinking, but please don't all use the same argument over and over.

More to the point: I have seen that many people greatly overestimate arcane spellcasters, especially the wizard. The wizard isn't too powerful, actually, due to the fact that they only get a MAXIMUM of 4 spells per day (5 for lower-level spells), assuming a base race and no magic items to boost intelligence. Once they run out, they're just walking fleshbags, which make for excellent targets.

Sorcerers are also pretty weak. Their spells are very limited, but they get more than the wizard (about 6 per day). They are the best spellcasters in one-offs or small series of adventures, but are usually a bit worse outside of combat and in long campaigns.

We're not even going to mention the bard. They're a useless class and are just too cheesy (not in the cheating sense either) unless you can actually give your character a unique personality and make up songs on the spot.
-Xavez

Rixx
2010-05-19, 03:27 PM
Not that I disagree on disliking the general attitude of nonmagical classes being worthless, but isn't stating your opinion and telling people not to argue with you a little pointless?

Also, bards are awesome.

sofawall
2010-05-19, 03:28 PM
I was being mean.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-19, 03:29 PM
Not that I disagree on disliking the general attitude of nonmagical classes being worthless, but isn't stating your opinion and telling people not to argue with you a little pointless?

Also, bards are awesome.

I'm telling people to not use the same argument over and over. I will edit my OP to say so.
-Xavez

The Glyphstone
2010-05-19, 03:30 PM
....this is satire, right? Please tell me it's satire. You didn't hide any white text in your post, so I'm worried.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 03:31 PM
And with Magic Items (Wand of Lesser Mnemonic Enhancement, anyone? Pearls of Power, Int-boosters, I needn't go on), racial Int-bonus and so on, they'll have plenty of spell slots. And one spell slot is generally enough per encounter early on and later on they have enough to burn. Yes, the limit exists, but Wizards (and Sorcs) can handle it. Scrolls and Wands further enhance their durability, as does their ability to rest safely in just about any environment (thanks to extradimensional safehavens like Rope Tricks or Magnificent Mansions).

Are you honestly thinking people who have played this game for years and know it inside-out haven't encountered and overcome this problem? Do you think people would say they are as strong as people do, if this problem were a real showstopper? Give us some credit, man. And the same arguments? They need to be repeated as long as it seems they are not considered. If people desiring to argue Wizards' power covered and considered the damnable arguments before posting, we'd save a lot of time (and most of the threads for that matter). Since the whole discussion is readily available on the search function among others, I'm really a bit surprised by its frequency of appearance.

Doc Roc
2010-05-19, 03:31 PM
Rather than a persuasive argument, would you like some empirical evidence?
I have nearly 120 duels, three specialist challenges, and one core-only dungeon crawl for you, if you like.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-19, 03:32 PM
....this is satire, right? Please tell me it's satire.

It is the TRUTH! I like arcane spellcasting classes (bard doesn't count as a class in my opinion), but I like the other classes equally well (as long as you optimize with the fighter).
-Xavez

Greenish
2010-05-19, 03:32 PM
loltroll.

No, really, just loltroll.Don't be so harsh on him, he's really new (as in "monks are totally awesome"-new).

I'll copy-pasta Lycantromancer from the other thread:
I say wizard 5.

No, really.

With a 5th-level wizard, I can deal Xd6 force damage (with X being arbitrarily high numbers of thousands, Reflex save for half) using a book full of explosive runes and an area dispel. In a 10' radius, no less. The guy at the epicenter of the explosion? No saves.

Infinite wishes and armies of epic creatures, no XP cost. A scroll of planar binding and some careful prep-work is all that's needed. Bind an efreeti, trap it in a magic circle against evil with a curtain around it, in a room covered in large, easy-to-read explosive runes, and torture it with debuffs and other cruelties until it fails its Charisma check (and buff yours up until you overpower it handily - not hard). Wish for simulacrums of more efreet, subservient to you, then start wishing for more simulacrums for more wishes. You can upgrade to solars at any time you like, then on to epic level monstrosities, as you wish.

Both are core-only, and pretty easy.

There's more, but should I really bother at this point?

Morty
2010-05-19, 03:33 PM
I'm never going to cease to be amazed by the people's willingness to assume that if someone uses an argument they disagree with it must obviously mean they're overlooking some facts.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-19, 03:33 PM
More flames! It's the only way to kill a troll!
Red is green. Don't refute me with the tired old "red isn't green" argument. Be original.
obnoxious
sig

The Glyphstone
2010-05-19, 03:33 PM
It is the TRUTH! I like arcane spellcasting classes (bard doesn't count as a class in my opinion), but I like the other classes equally well (as long as you optimize with the fighter).
-Xavez

Mind = broken.

I'll let other people take to the fight now, who are more articulate than myself and have the numbers to back up their arguments. But trust me, you're not the first person to try and decide that arcane spellcasters lack endurance.

Gorbash
2010-05-19, 03:36 PM
More to the point: I have seen that many people greatly overestimate arcane spellcasters, especially the wizard. The wizard isn't too powerful, actually, due to the fact that they only get a MAXIMUM of 4 spells per day (5 for lower-level spells), assuming a base race and no magic items to boost intelligence. Once they run out, they're just walking fleshbags, which make for excellent targets.

Erm... You do realize that they have 4 spells... of every level? And why are you assuming no magic boost to intelligence? That's the same why I could say - Barbarians can do absolutely no damage at all, assuming they have no hands.

Grey Elf is also a base race. So even with base race and no magic boosts, you can pump up starting Int of 22 (by taking Venerable, or whatever age category gives you +2 mental and -3 physical stats) with no magic items (I'm indulging you on this one) which gives them additional 8 spells per day. Consider in the fact that you can play a Focused Specialist too, giving you base 6 spells per day (base) and these additional 8 and let's say you're 11th lvl that means you have around 40 spells per day.

Mastikator
2010-05-19, 03:36 PM
This isn't wow when you just keep on grinding and grinding. Running out of spells is only a problem at lower levels.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-19, 03:37 PM
Don't be so harsh on him, he's really new (as in "monks are totally awesome"-new).

I'll copy-pasta Lycantromancer from the other thread:

About me being "new": Tha'ts also being harsh (misplaced apostrophe for your convenience). Monks are the best possible class in 3.5 if you have at least two +3 or better abilities and 2 +2 abilities. But I digress.

About lycanthromancer's post: Contrary to popular belief, Explosive Runes only detonate when read out loud. Unless your'e playing D&D OOTS style, which wouldn't work.

@ sofawall: that was just plain rude. Onto the ignore list you go!
-Xavez

pinwiz
2010-05-19, 03:37 PM
Before I tell this story, please note that I don't claim to be good at D&D.

The power of spells is great enough to overcome the endurance of non-casters. I had a Crusader, who could do a lot of damage with some ok effects and last a long time. I duelled my friend 11 times. He played a bard. Guess how many times he beat me? 11 times. If I had gotten lucky, yes I could've beaten him, but lucky doesn't match good. He would Hold person me and then coup de grace me. Not that I had the best saves (level 7 or 8 by the way), but it worked every time. I almost killed him ONCE.

And wizard and sorcerer endurance is moot if they can teleport away as their final spell. The strength of spells is in their versatility.

sofawall
2010-05-19, 03:37 PM
You say 4 spell slots per level? I say 10 spells per encounter (using the DMG recommended guidelines).

You say half those spells are so weak as to be useless? I say blind as a level, 2 spell doesn't seem weak.

I say Focused Specialist. You say spell school loss. I say it doesn't matter much when you ban Enchantment, Evocation and Necromancy.

You say no int-boost and no magic items? I say why not? Also, I say let's say Fighters can no longer have stat boosts or magic items. I think Wizards come out ahead there.

So, spells slots looking more like 8+ of each level, so 24 levels 7-9, so 6 encounter-ending spells per encounter, with another 50 or so left over to hit any night-time ambushes with.

Wings of Peace
2010-05-19, 03:38 PM
Dragonfire Inspiration called. It wants to rape you.

2xMachina
2010-05-19, 03:38 PM
This is only true if you're running it through a Solo Endurance crawl.

With support, 1 BC spell can help kill stuff.
4 encounters per day doesn't use all that many spell

Solo, and lots of encounters? Sorry, you're dry.

Greenish
2010-05-19, 03:39 PM
Grey Elf is also a base race. So even with base race and no magic boosts, you can pump up starting Int of 22 (by taking Venerable, or whatever age category gives you +2 mental and -3 physical stats)Going up to venerable actually gives you +3 to mental stats and -6 to physical ones. You can get around the penalties with a dragonwrought kobold.

kamikasei
2010-05-19, 03:39 PM
About lycanthromancer's post: Contrary to popular belief, Explosive Runes only detonate when read out loud. Unless your'e playing D&D OOTS style, which wouldn't work.

Two things.

- What's that based on?
- The "box of explosive runes" trick uses a dispel magic as the trigger, not a reading.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-19, 03:40 PM
This is only true if you're running it through a Solo Endurance crawl.

With support, 1 BC spell can help kill stuff.
4 encounters per day doesn't use all that many spell

Solo, and lots of encounters? Sorry, you're dry.

Reserve feats would like to have a word with you. Right after you check with the mangled corpse of the noncaster over there, who ran out of HP long before you ran out of spell slots.

gbprime
2010-05-19, 03:40 PM
Wizards, bards, and sorcerers ARE in fact very weak... until you give them feats and/or equipment. Then things even out considerably. :smallamused:

Honestly, if you find yourself in a campaign where the wizard frequently runs low on battery power, a reserve feat is the cure for you. Throw in a staff, and you've solved the problem without sacrificing versatility.

Sorcerers need prestige classes more than the other two. Do that and they're fine.

And bard... bard DOESN'T need a prestige class (or even any equipment at all) if you take 1 feat and 1 specific 1st level spell. Then they're awesome at buffing party members. Search this board to find out which feat and which spell.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-19, 03:40 PM
I'm never going to cease to be amazed by the people's willingness to assume that if someone uses an argument they disagree with it must obviously mean they're overlooking some facts.

I think you're right. Everybody on this forum is a bit stubborn and rude to those who are outside the norm (as in, wizards win every time and monks lose every time and only magic-using classes are any good and factotums are awesome). By the way, I disagree strongly with the items in the parentheses, and not everyone has the same beliefs, so if you are like me, you shouldn't be disliked.
-Xavez

2xMachina
2010-05-19, 03:41 PM
RE: Explosive Runes.

Nowhere does it say read out loud.

Looking at it, and reading is enough.

Gauntlet
2010-05-19, 03:41 PM
I disagree, Xavez. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiverunes.htm)

Let me quote the relevant section for you.

attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion.
Yeah, I'm afraid you're wrong there.

On the DMG recommended 4 encounters per day, tell me exactly how a wizard is going to run out of spells when at least 50% of the choices you would make end an encounter instantly (or at least, make it so easy your allies can finish it for you).

Smiling Knight
2010-05-19, 03:42 PM
Monks are the best possible class in 3.5 if you have at least two +3 or better abilities and 2 +2 abilities. But I digress.

BOOOM! *Head explodes*


*Headless body prays this is troll*

ErrantX
2010-05-19, 03:42 PM
http://lh5.ggpht.com/carlos57775/SCobc6EL_hI/AAAAAAAABys/RG0y66Z3ZDY/s288/Don%27t%20feed%20the%20troll.jpg

sofawall
2010-05-19, 03:43 PM
The runes detonate when read, dealing 6d6 points of force damage.

Nothing about "out loud" there.


...attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion.

Oh look, another way!

No I understand with your houserules and DM Fiat, casters may not be the strongest class. However, with the rules as they are in the book, no modifications, casters tend to do fairly well.

2xMachina
2010-05-19, 03:44 PM
Reserve feats would like to have a word with you. Right after you check with the mangled corpse of the noncaster over there, who ran out of HP long before you ran out of spell slots.

Hmm, yeah.

Casters rule high lvls.

You can't do it for a 1 to 20 dungeon run though. Don't think you can survive to get reserve feats. (Else, try a full caster//full caster in Neverending Dungeon)

Gorbash
2010-05-19, 03:44 PM
Xavez, two questions...

1. Are you even reading our posts? We've empirically concluded that wizards can have a ton of spells, meaning your initial arguement is invalid.

2. Where did you get the idea that they can cast maximum of 4 spells PER DAY?

Ernir
2010-05-19, 03:44 PM
Solo, and lots of encounters? Sorry, you're dry.

In a solo endurance run, you pick up a Reserve Feat. :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-05-19, 03:44 PM
About me being "new": Tha'ts also being harsh (misplaced apostrophe for your convenience). Monks are the best possible class in 3.5 if you have at least two +3 or better abilities and 2 +2 abilities. But I digress.I was merely defending you. You're entitled to your own opinions, and we are allowed to tell you that you're wrong. And you are new to the game. That's okay, everyone was once.

About lycanthromancer's post: Contrary to popular belief, Explosive Runes only detonate when read out loud. Unless your'e playing D&D OOTS style, which wouldn't work.HEre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm), read that again. Specifically: "attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion".

arguskos
2010-05-19, 03:45 PM
http://lh5.ggpht.com/carlos57775/SCobc6EL_hI/AAAAAAAABys/RG0y66Z3ZDY/s288/Don%27t%20feed%20the%20troll.jpg
This picture is so unbelievably cute, like, I'm not even gonna lie guys. I like this thread for giving me this picture.

Wings of Peace
2010-05-19, 03:45 PM
For the sake of debate. When you compare wizzies, sorc, etc to the other classes. What parameters besides "They run out of spells" are you using? Are you comparing them all by available prc options? Are you assuming they're each playing their stereotypical roles or specializing in something like debuff or tripping? Because "They run out of spells" is an issue most practiced wizards have worked around.

Morty
2010-05-19, 03:45 PM
I think you're right. Everybody on this forum is a bit stubborn and rude to those who are outside the norm (as in, wizards win every time and monks lose every time and only magic-using classes are any good and factotums are awesome). By the way, I disagree strongly with the items in the parentheses, and not everyone has the same beliefs, so if you are like me, you shouldn't be disliked.
-Xavez

I really hate to break it to you, but I was referring to your assertion that if you don't think the claims that spellcasters are overpowered it means everyone who says they are is "using the same argument over and over" and are simply wrong.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-19, 03:45 PM
I think you're right. Everybody on this forum is a bit stubborn and rude to those who are outside the norm (as in, wizards win every time and monks lose every time and only magic-using classes are any good and factotums are awesome). By the way, I disagree strongly with the items in the parentheses, and not everyone has the same beliefs, so if you are like me, you shouldn't be disliked.
-Xavez

We're stubborn and rude? You've put forth an opinion that you call a fact. We supplied evidence, empirical and otherwise, that your 'facts' are incorrect. You have 1) told us we are wrong in case where the 2 elements involved explicitly state how they work - the explosive runes bomb; 3) ignored people who presented said evidence; 3) strawmanned repeatedly 3) reiterated your assertions while insulting us.

You can disagree that a Ferrari is better than a VW Bug. This is a matter of opinion (and one I'd agree with, Bugs are sweet), and one free to dispute.
You can disagree that a Ferrari is faster than a VW Bug. However, you would be wrong, as this is a matter of fact.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 03:45 PM
I think you're right. Everybody on this forum is a bit stubborn and rude to those who are outside the norm (as in, wizards win every time and monks lose every time and only magic-using classes are any good and factotums are awesome). By the way, I disagree strongly with the items in the parentheses, and not everyone has the same beliefs, so if you are like me, you shouldn't be disliked.
-Xavez

Generally those beliefs are based on tried and true facts regarding classes' abilities and as such, arguing against all that without a real basis can be considered an insult to all the work that has been put into the analysis on all this. That's why some tempers might flare.

Your personal opinions are your business, but what the classes are capable of depends on the abilities given to them and Slow Fall even on level 20 just doesn't compare to Feather Fall, no matter how you slice it.

pinwiz
2010-05-19, 03:45 PM
I'd like to request that people stop calling the OP a troll, it's kind of insulting, as I know there was a time I thought casters were weak. It doesn't make you stupid or baiting people, it just means that that is their opinion, however right it may be. Please.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-19, 03:46 PM
You say 4 spell slots per level? I say 10 spells per encounter (using the DMG recommended guidelines).

You say half those spells are so weak as to be useless? I say blind as a level, 2 spell doesn't seem weak.

I say Focused Specialist. You say spell school loss. I say it doesn't matter much when you ban Enchantment, Evocation and Necromancy.

You say no int-boost and no magic items? I say why not? Also, I say let's say Fighters can no longer have stat boosts or magic items. I think Wizards come out ahead there.

So, spells slots looking more like 8+ of each level, so 24 levels 7-9, so 6 encounter-ending spells per encounter, with another 50 or so left over to hit any night-time ambushes with.

I didn't say no magic items, I said no magic items Which boost intelligence. And calm down. Read Morty's post about people on this forum in arguments and my response to it.


Dragonfire Inspiration called. It wants to rape you.

That's two who go on the ignore list. And actually, you are just using that as an insult you can't get in trouble for.
-Xavez

2xMachina
2010-05-19, 03:47 PM
Ninjas a-plenty!

We're posting too fast here...

Yeah, full casters pwn high lvls. Even at endurance.

I'd say making a full caster go from lvl 1 solo endurance is hard though.

kamikasei
2010-05-19, 03:47 PM
By the way, I disagree strongly with the items in the parentheses, and not everyone has the same beliefs, so if you are like me, you shouldn't be disliked.

On the one hand you state here that your posts are just, like, your opinion, man, and so immune to criticism as a matter of personal taste, but on the other hand you also seem to want to argue that your conclusions are true as a matter of fact. Which is it?


That's two who go on the ignore list. And actually, you are just using that as an insult you can't get in trouble for.

I think you might have misread his point. Do you know what Dragonfire Inspiration is?

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-19, 03:47 PM
Xavez, two questions...

1. Are you even reading our posts? We've empirically concluded that wizards can have a ton of spells, meaning your initial arguement is invalid.

2. Where did you get the idea that they can cast maximum of 4 spells PER DAY?

Per level.
-Xavez

DaedalusMkV
2010-05-19, 03:48 PM
About me being "new": Tha'ts also being harsh (misplaced apostrophe for your convenience). Monks are the best possible class in 3.5 if you have at least two +3 or better abilities and 2 +2 abilities. But I digress.-Xavez

*Boom*

That was the sound of my brain exploding. Please, stop. You're only making yourself look like an idiot. Trust me, we were all new once, with fancy ideas that we're right and everyone else is wrong. Read some handbooks, get a better understanding of the rules and how the game works and then come back. You won't accomplish anything the way you're doing it now.

Actually, you know what? I agree with Sofa. This is a classic troll thread. I'm out of here. Troll or not, there's nothing to be gained from continuing this argument.

Greenish
2010-05-19, 03:48 PM
Wizards, bards, and sorcerers ARE in fact very weak... until you give them feats and/or equipment. Then things even out considerably. :smallamused:Lack of equipment and feats hurts non-casters even more, though.

I think you're right. Everybody on this forum is a bit stubborn and rude to those who are outside the norm (as in, wizards win every time and monks lose every time and only magic-using classes are any good and factotums are awesome). By the way, I disagree strongly with the items in the parentheses, and not everyone has the same beliefs, so if you are like me, you shouldn't be disliked.
-XavezIf you want to argue, you should listen to other people's arguments too.

Also, why aren't factotums awesome?

[Edit]: When arguing, you should also present arguments on your own.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-19, 03:49 PM
Hmm, yeah.

Casters rule high lvls.

You can't do it for a 1 to 20 dungeon run though. Don't think you can survive to get reserve feats. (Else, try a full caster//full caster in Neverending Dungeon)

All you need to do is survive till level 3 and get Fiery Burst.

What's Neverending Dungeon?

Gorbash
2010-05-19, 03:50 PM
Per level.
-Xavez

And why is that a low number, in your opinion? Even barring magical int boosts (which is kinda stupid), we've presented you evidence over and over that wizards get about 40-50 spells per day, yet you still say nothing to prove us otherwise.

gbprime
2010-05-19, 03:51 PM
Man, this thread is updating faster than I can press ctrl-F5. :smalleek:


Per level.
-Xavez

I saw where you were going with that. And even if you start with a 17 stat and no stat boost items, you're still looking at a 20 caster stat by level 12. 22 or 24 with the right feat or race. So it's more like 5 or 6 per day of each lower level.

Still, with that kind of restriction, reserve feats get even more attractive.

Arakune
2010-05-19, 03:51 PM
About me being "new": Tha'ts also being harsh (misplaced apostrophe for your convenience). Monks are the best possible class in 3.5 if you have at least two +3 or better abilities and 2 +2 abilities. But I digress.

About lycanthromancer's post: Contrary to popular belief, Explosive Runes only detonate when read out loud. Unless your'e playing D&D OOTS style, which wouldn't work.

@ sofawall: that was just plain rude. Onto the ignore list you go!
-Xavez

Really? The Monk is the best class for an 16 16 16 14 14 8 arrangement?

First, that's a quite high point buy (42 for start) or a quite lucky roll. Second, it's a consensus here that the monk is a weak class and badly designed, just a forum search is enough to come up with lot's of threads explaining and discussing.

Contrary to your belief, explosives runes DO explode when dispelled, you just need to fail to dispel your explosive runes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm)

pinwiz
2010-05-19, 03:51 PM
And why is that a low number, in your opinion? Even barring magical int boosts (which is kinda stupid), we've presented you evidence over and over that wizards get about 40-50 spells per day, yet you still say nothing to prove us otherwise.

And even if it IS a low number, it doesn't matter because a powerful wizard can end encounters with one or two spells.

Glimbur
2010-05-19, 03:53 PM
I'd say making a full caster go from lvl 1 solo endurance is hard though.

Druid//Cleric could make a good run at it. You might have to actually cast healing spells to keep your animal companion up at low levels, and the spell lists have a lot of overlap, but it should be serviceable.

sofawall
2010-05-19, 03:53 PM
I didn't say no magic items, I said no magic items Which boost intelligence.

So basically, what you are saying is "When the wizard is denied magic items which are optimal for him, which every wizard wants, which even WotC says wizards want above all else, the single best item for a wizard, the wizard is weaker." Well, yeah. When you take away a fighter's weapon they're a bit weaker too, dont'cha think?

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-19, 03:54 PM
I'd like to request that people stop calling the OP a troll, it's kind of insulting, as I know there was a time I thought casters were weak. It doesn't make you stupid or baiting people, it just means that that is their opinion, however right it may be. Please.

Thank you. Thank you very much. *hugs*
-Xavez

gbprime
2010-05-19, 03:54 PM
So basically, what you are saying is "When the wizard is denied magic items which are optimal for him, which every wizard wants, which even WotC says wizards want above all else, the single best item for a wizard, the wizard is weaker." Well, yeah. When you take away a fighter's weapon they're a bit weaker too, dont'cha think?

Actually, it's a better analogy to take away the fighter's access to things like haste and displacement. He can still get the job done, it just hurts more. :smallbiggrin:

Arakune
2010-05-19, 03:55 PM
Before I let this thread fall to obscurity Mr. Troll, it's better to put sofawall out of your ignore list until the end of this thread since he, Doc Roc and a few others rank quite high here on the optimization end, and listening to them a bit is a wise course of action.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-19, 03:55 PM
On the one hand you state here that your posts are just, like, your opinion, man, and so immune to criticism as a matter of personal taste, but on the other hand you also seem to want to argue that your conclusions are true as a matter of fact. Which is it?



I think you might have misread his point. Do you know what Dragonfire Inspiration is?

Not entirely, but saying that anything wants to rape me is not very nice.
-Xavez

iElf
2010-05-19, 03:56 PM
Read Morty's post about people on this forum in arguments and my response to it.


In case you still don't get it, It was directed at YOU. and please just stop. your embarrassing yourself, and not making yourself popular.

.
.
.
and bards are awesome.

Greenish
2010-05-19, 03:57 PM
Not entirely, but saying that anything wants to rape me is not very nice.
-XavezDeclaring that everyone but you is wrong is not very nice either.

Smiling Knight
2010-05-19, 03:57 PM
All wizards can do is:

-Lockdown entire encounters with a single spell
-Obviate the need for any form of transportation
-Provide a safe place to rest, no matter the locale
-Do hundreds of no-save damage, every turn
-Be practically unkillable with buffs
-Create their own completely impregnable plane of existence
-Learn about any and all enemy preparations via divination
-Break any semblance of WBL

Now, look at monks:

-Hit stuff
-Hit stuff several times
-Fall slowly
-Try and immobilize a single enemy
-Run away quickly
-Spend most of WBL and skillpoints to emulate a weak wizard
-Once a week, try and kill something in one hit

Roland St. Jude
2010-05-19, 03:58 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Calling someone a troll is explicitly prohibited by the Forum Rules. Thread locked for review and obvious violations.