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View Full Version : Help beta test my logic problem before I give it to my PCs



valadil
2010-05-19, 03:42 PM
Hey. I don't usually do puzzles like this. I'd rather not screw over my PCs and waste their time by giving them a puzzle that doesn't work. So would any playgrounders mind testing it for me?

The PCs went to a new city where an important vote is taking place. They dug up some dirt, but rather than give them a huge info dump, I'm giving them bits and pieces of information which they can sort out themselves. This is taking place in the form of a logic problem.

(Just in case they happen to find this, my PCs please don't read this. You should be able to recognize my username.)

Here are the clues (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1266065/nobles_clues.pdf) and the work sheet (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1266065/nobles_puzzle.pdf). I also have master sheet (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1266065/nobles_answers.pdf) with answers, if you want to check your work. Ideally there should only be one correct answer, but I haven't built a logic puzzle before, so I recognize the possibility that someone may correctly arrive at another valid answer.

Now, one thing that makes this different than your standard logic puzzle is that I'm going to be giving out an incomplete set of clues. What I give the PCs will be missing a quarter of the information they need to solve the puzzle. They'll have to dig up everything else on their own. What I'm hoping is that they'll run into a situation with two or three distinct possibilities, so they investigate those options instead of stabbing blindly.

However, I included all the clues for you beta testers. I haven't figured out which ones to take out yet. So we're doing this D&D style. Please roll 5d20. Hide that particular clue. If you get a 20 or a repeat number, awesome, you get that clue for free. Try to solve the puzzle without looking out those hidden clues. If you get stuck, then look at them.

Please let me know if this works out, or if it's broken. It would also be useful if I knew which clues you used. If some of them are completely useless, that's good too and I can eliminate them.

Thanks!

(edit: final version of files available here (http://files.sagotsky.com/nobles_puzzle.zip).)

PId6
2010-05-19, 05:21 PM
It took a while, but it worked for me. I made a mistake and kinda just jumped in there when I saw the links though, so I didn't read the whole post at first and didn't do the random rolling thing :smallredface:. It took nearly all the clues to figure out though, or at least, it didn't become clear until I had the vast majority of them.

I'm not sure which ones aren't necessary, except for clue 10, since I wasn't sure what it meant. From the result, I'm guessing that the number of votes a noble has is based on how many he sells beforehand, but I wasn't sure at the time so I didn't use that clue. I do know that a few are very important though; Clues 11, 18 and 19 were probably the most necessary.

If I were you, I'd err on the side of caution and give more clues than necessary. It's better if they solve it too easily than if they get completely stuck. A few more very revealing clues, possibly well hidden, would be nice to have as a backup so the PCs can solve through investigation if they're stuck on logic.

Asheram
2010-05-19, 05:24 PM
If I were you, I'd err on the side of caution and give more clues than necessary. It's better if they solve it too easily than if they get completely stuck. A few more very revealing clues, possibly well hidden, would be nice to have as a backup so the PCs can solve through investigation if they're stuck on logic.

I agree with this assessment. We had trouble with it, and we weren't under any of the pressure that your players will feel.

Mooch
2010-05-19, 05:30 PM
I love these puzzles so I will try beta test and update with what I find

sofawall
2010-05-19, 05:45 PM
It took some time, but just like all of these types of puzzles a meticulously kept chart will result in victory.

Swordgleam
2010-05-19, 06:26 PM
You have "gay noble" and "no other scandals" in clue 2, but gay is listed under scandals. I assume you mean he has no other secrets. You also might want to not use "clean" twice as that almost tripped me up at one point. Maybe "guilt-free" and "innocent?"

10 was a little confusing. I interpreted "all his votes" to mean "he has neither zero nor one vote."


11 was not obvious. I interpreted it to mean "not the largest bribe" but it could easily be interpreted to mean "the smallest bribe."

I'd be careful with the "Caelish is celibate" thing. If I were a player and heard that rumour, I'd assume he was the gay one. Since I read it on the sheet, I took it at face value.

I would definitely give more clues. And perhaps consider dropping a variable or two. It's a really cool puzzle, but I'm not sure your players will be able to figure it out at the table fast enough to not get frustrated.

valadil
2010-05-19, 08:13 PM
TY for all the comments. I'm making notes and revising.

I forgot to mention one thing in the initial post. If you do get through it (or even if you get most of the way, but give up), please let me know how long it took. Having built the puzzle I'm no longer able to test it myself to get a feel for how long it'll take.


You have "gay noble" and "no other scandals" in clue 2, but gay is listed under scandals. I assume you mean he has no other secrets. You also might want to not use "clean" twice as that almost tripped me up at one point. Maybe "guilt-free" and "innocent?"


The scandal/secret terminology was a bad choice on my part. Originally when I planned this it was going to be something more like race/class, but that's all public information so it didn't make sense. Then I realized I had more ideas for corrupt political stuff than for any other category, so I went with that. In this case I think I slipped up because they're both S words.




I'd be careful with the "Caelish is celibate" thing. If I were a player and heard that rumour, I'd assume he was the gay one. Since I read it on the sheet, I took it at face value.



That one is deliberately tricky. I intended for it to knock out gay or mistress, but it also eliminates infanticide because the infanticide description mentioned it was a first born. No sex, no first born.

I'm also intending to let the players know that this is in fact a logic problem and the clues given are all 100% true. If they have to guess that things are lies or misleading, they'll never solve it.


I would definitely give more clues. And perhaps consider dropping a variable or two. It's a really cool puzzle, but I'm not sure your players will be able to figure it out at the table fast enough to not get frustrated.

Glad you think it's cool :) Play time is why I'm actually considering removing clues. The way I see it is that they can work on it until they get stuck. Then they'll be at a point where they know one of two nobles is the murderer, but they can't continue until they have that fact. So they roleplay an investigation of both nobles and then return to the puzzle when they have their answer. I'm hoping going back and forth to the puzzle would keep the frustration away. I could be wrong though. The game isn't being run for another month (we're on hiatus so I can get married) so you have plenty of time to convince me to make it more solvable.

mucat
2010-05-19, 09:08 PM
That one (celibacy) is deliberately tricky. I intended for it to knock out gay or mistress, but it also eliminates infanticide because the infanticide description mentioned it was a first born. No sex, no first born.
I don't think it works, then. The clue says that he is celibate, not that he has been celibate his entire married life. I read it as "he and his wife no longer have sex", which doesn't at all eliminate the possibility that they have kids (or even that he is having an affair, while being publicly considered "celibate".)
EDIT: It also doesn't say she is celibate, which means they could have kids who are publicly acknowledged as theirs even if he's not actually the biological father.

You might also need to specify that all the nobles listed are men. It took me a couple of readings to realize that the noble who is having an affair with a male elf is necessarily meant to be a gay male, and not a woman.

The biggest problem I might have with whole thing if I were a player, though, it that it seems jarring and artificial. One moment, the characters are moving through a world full of realistic-seeming people and shades of grey, and then suddenly they receive this huge info dump full of unquestionably-true facts that fit neatly onto a little grid, as if they've been dumped into a video game. Depending on the players and the tone of the campaign, it might work as a fun diversion, or it might shatter their sense of immersion.


I forgot to mention one thing in the initial post. If you do get through it (or even if you get most of the way, but give up), please let me know how long it took. Having built the puzzle I'm no longer able to test it myself to get a feel for how long it'll take.
I think it was about 20 minutes, but I wasn't timing myself, and was thinking about how to improve the clues as well as how to solve them...

PId6
2010-05-19, 09:20 PM
I forgot to mention one thing in the initial post. If you do get through it (or even if you get most of the way, but give up), please let me know how long it took. Having built the puzzle I'm no longer able to test it myself to get a feel for how long it'll take.
Took me ~30-40ish minutes, but I was doing something else at the time. In practice, it might take 10-20 minutes for one person without distractions, but that'll probably be significantly longer in actual game with multiple people and with clues missing (ironically, I've found that the more people going at a puzzle, the longer it tends to take :smalltongue:).

Yorrin
2010-05-19, 09:31 PM
It took me quite a while- nearly an hour, but I was highly distracted. I got 'em all thought, even using the "Caelish is celibate" hint to only take away the mistress. And using the #11 as him not having the 15k bribe only.

But I'll agree with some of my fellow posters- find better names for this stuff.

Mando Knight
2010-05-19, 09:31 PM
If they're not inclined towards logic puzzles, it may take them a lot longer. Long puzzles (as opposed to simply long puzzles) are bad for a game session, since they eat up time and get boring quickly without the proper motivation, such as a countdown to death. I recommend slowly grinding death traps, like falling ceilings or flooding the room with deadly neurotoxin.

valadil
2010-05-19, 09:35 PM
I don't think it works, then. The clue says that he is celibate, not that he has been celibate his entire married life. I read it as "he and his wife no longer have sex", which doesn't at all eliminate the possibility that they have kids (or even that he is having an affair, while being publicly considered "celibate".)
EDIT: It also doesn't say she is celibate, which means they could have kids who are publicly acknowledged as theirs even if he's not actually the biological father.

You might also need to specify that all the nobles listed are men. It took me a couple of readings to realize that the noble who is having an affair with a male elf is necessarily meant to be a gay male, and not a woman.


Both of those are really good points. I'll have to either eliminate the celibate clue or rewrite it so that she's celibate too.



The biggest problem I might have with whole thing if I were a player, though, it that it seems jarring and artificial. One moment, the characters are moving through a world full of realistic-seeming people and shades of grey, and then suddenly they receive this huge info dump full of unquestionably-true facts that fit neatly onto a little grid, as if they've been dumped into a video game. Depending on the players and the tone of the campaign, it might work as a fun diversion, or it might shatter their sense of immersion.


I can see why that would be a problem normally. However this is going to be the start of a session after a 2 month hiatus. Since we're going from not playing to puzzle to game, I don't think it'll be as jarring as going from game to puzzle to game.

valadil
2010-05-19, 09:41 PM
If they're not inclined towards logic puzzles, it may take them a lot longer. Long puzzles (as opposed to simply long puzzles) are bad for a game session, since they eat up time and get boring quickly without the proper motivation, such as a countdown to death. I recommend slowly grinding death traps, like falling ceilings or flooding the room with deadly neurotoxin.

I don't know how they're inclined. I haven't given them a puzzle like this before. I actually haven't given this group any puzzles at all yet, so it's a bit of a test run for them. As I've said before, they're more than welcome to do research outside of the puzzle to get more clues. I figure that if the puzzle is too much, that's an easy way out for them to complete it by means more suitable to their preferences.

Bugbeartrap
2010-05-19, 10:10 PM
Still working on it right now. Slight nitpick is #2 says that the gay noble doesnt participate in a scandal but you have placed the gay affair under scandal. Do you really mean that he has no other secret?

valadil
2010-05-19, 10:45 PM
Still working on it right now. Slight nitpick is #2 says that the gay noble doesnt participate in a scandal but you have placed the gay affair under scandal. Do you really mean that he has no other secret?

Yes, there was some confusion there on my part. I think I mentally lost track of which were scandals and which were secrets during the creation of the puzzle. But that's what I have beta testers for :smalltongue:

Mando Knight
2010-05-19, 10:48 PM
I don't know how they're inclined. I haven't given them a puzzle like this before. I actually haven't given this group any puzzles at all yet, so it's a bit of a test run for them. As I've said before, they're more than welcome to do research outside of the puzzle to get more clues. I figure that if the puzzle is too much, that's an easy way out for them to complete it by means more suitable to their preferences.

Start with a shorter, easier puzzle to test them out, then.

FlamingKobold
2010-05-19, 10:57 PM
I did the puzzle in 6.5 minutes. It's a clever, short little one, but fun all the same.

Swordgleam
2010-05-19, 11:11 PM
Thinking on it more, I have another question. What is the party's goal? You hand me that puzzle, I want to fill it all out. But the PCs might just need to know, "Who is the Bane worshipper? we can blackmail him into changing his vote" or "who has the most votes? that's who we want to talk to" or "who got paid the least? we can probably change their mind."

EccentricOwl
2010-05-20, 01:07 AM
Have your worksheets been revised to reflect the update, by any chance?

Also, this is a delight! I wonder if there are any other good, well, puzzles for the NPCs to work for.

Swordgleam
2010-05-20, 01:14 AM
Hey EccentricOwl, have you noticed that the banner in your sig breaks the forum layout for most resolutions? If you could put it in spoiler tags or resize it smaller, that'd be great.

valadil
2010-05-20, 08:51 AM
Thinking on it more, I have another question. What is the party's goal? You hand me that puzzle, I want to fill it all out. But the PCs might just need to know, "Who is the Bane worshipper? we can blackmail him into changing his vote" or "who has the most votes? that's who we want to talk to" or "who got paid the least? we can probably change their mind."

The party's goal will be to pick a side and change some votes. They can do that however they like. The reason I put in the number of votes controlled category was so that if they realized they didn't have time to talk to everyone, they could pick the nobles with the biggest payoffs. I also wouldn't be surprised if they try and kill off a few of nobles who have done more evil acts.


Have your worksheets been revised to reflect the update, by any chance?

Also, this is a delight! I wonder if there are any other good, well, puzzles for the NPCs to work for.

Glad you enjoyed :-) No, I haven't had time to update. I started to last night but each time I made a change I got another suggestion. I may update later this afternoon.

Asheram
2010-05-20, 09:18 AM
The game isn't being run for another month (we're on hiatus so I can get married)

Congratulations!

EccentricOwl
2010-05-27, 02:29 PM
How goes? You feel confident in the puzzle?

You've really inspired me, by the way. I'm doing the same thing in my Mass Effect d20 game. I'll make sure to mention you and the thread for credit! =D

EccentricOwl
2010-06-03, 03:05 PM
Seems like your DL dropbox has timed out. I can't download the files.

Binks
2010-06-03, 07:05 PM
Just a few notes:
I see 2's been mentioned, so I'll skip it.
10 doesn't make much sense...might want to look at that one
11 isn't all that useful (all it tells you, directly, is that shar != 15K. If you were looking to say the worshiper of shar got 1K you might want to be more direct)

I didn't finish it, it's fairly difficult. I'd recommend just giving all the clues, and fixing the ones with errors. I could see it was solvable with less than all the clues (I ended up skipping 3), just didn't have the time to finish it.

valadil
2010-06-05, 03:06 PM
How goes? You feel confident in the puzzle?

You've really inspired me, by the way. I'm doing the same thing in my Mass Effect d20 game. I'll make sure to mention you and the thread for credit! =D

Feeling pretty good about it. It didn't have to change too much. The biggest problem I've had was the celibate hint. I reworded it and gave it to the wife. It completely ruined her puzzle.

Glad to hear it! That kind of thing is what motivates me as a GM.


Seems like your DL dropbox has timed out. I can't download the files.

Didn't realize it would do that. Here's some updated links. I (think) I fixed all the questions, aside from the celibate one. Still not sure how I want to reword it.

http://files.sagotsky.com/nobles/nobles_clues.pdf
http://files.sagotsky.com/nobles/nobles_puzzle.pdf
http://files.sagotsky.com/nobles/nobles_answers.pdf


Just a few notes:
I see 2's been mentioned, so I'll skip it.
10 doesn't make much sense...might want to look at that one
11 isn't all that useful (all it tells you, directly, is that shar != 15K. If you were looking to say the worshiper of shar got 1K you might want to be more direct)

I didn't finish it, it's fairly difficult. I'd recommend just giving all the clues, and fixing the ones with errors. I could see it was solvable with less than all the clues (I ended up skipping 3), just didn't have the time to finish it.

Glad to know it's difficult. I've been having trouble challenging my PCs lately. Can't let them think they're all smarter than me :-P For what it's worth, I plan on having the answer sheet on hand during game. If they want to spy on some nobles and look for specific clues I'll be able to put those out there for them. The clues on the paper are not the only clues that will be available to them.

I've added some help to 10 and 11. It's in the updated sheet. It specifics that minimal means 1k and that sold all his votes means 0.

I'm still stuck on a good fix for celibate though. Noble and wife need to be celibate. They need to always have been celibate. I had used religious reasons to explain this, but the wife interpreted that as blocking Shar and Bane worship, which breaks the puzzle. Maybe I should just strike that clue instead of trying to fix it.

Sliver
2010-06-05, 03:28 PM
Make sure you give us an update when you finally use it and how it went! :smalltongue:

valadil
2010-06-05, 04:25 PM
Make sure you give us an update when you finally use it and how it went! :smalltongue:

Wasn't planning on it, but if you insist I'll be more than happy to up my post count :-P That'll probably happen on the 25th or 26th. I'm having trouble building up to writing game again post wedding hiatus.

valadil
2010-06-28, 10:44 PM
Make sure you give us an update when you finally use it and how it went! :smalltongue:

It went very well, thanks for asking. Took 45 minutes (though the players insisted they'd have had it in 30 if we weren't having cake at the time). All but one of them was involved - he was too tired for that kind of thinking. They got the puzzle right, but I haven't told them that yet. Gonna let them act on their answers and hope they don't shank the wrong nobles.

I would definitely use this type of puzzle again if the situation called for it. Probably not again in this campaign though.

EccentricOwl
2010-08-10, 02:26 PM
Glad things turned out all right. It went all right in my game as well, though most of the party didn't participate.

Keep us posted if you think of doing something similar in the future.

Marnath
2010-08-10, 02:29 PM
You do know he posted that more than a month ago right?

valadil
2010-08-10, 02:35 PM
You do know he posted that more than a month ago right?

Yes, but I also linked to it in a more recent thread on puzzles. Out of curiosity, what qualifies as thread necro? I figure anything up to a month is fair game and above 6 months is necro, but I'm not real sure about stuff in between.

Marnath
2010-08-10, 02:45 PM
The forum rules say:
Thread Necromancy
Bringing a thread back from “the dead.” If a thread has fallen to page three and hasn’t been posted in for a month and a half, don’t post to it. Start a new topic if you want to discuss the subject.

so i guess you're ok yet on the time issue, and i think i remember them being more relaxed on the page thing on this forum because of how much activity there is.