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View Full Version : [3.5] Spell-Selection for an Infinite-Spell per day Sorcerer



balistafreak
2010-05-19, 09:30 PM
My friends and I were having a discussion about spellcaster endurance compared to spellcaster versatility. One of us proposed that sorcerers (and by extension spontaneous casters) aren't particularly broken at ECL 10 or below even if they could cast an infinite amount of spells. (By particularly broken, we mean in the whole scope of D&D. Obviously a tireless spellcaster is relatively broken, but it could much, much worse. :smalltongue:) Apparently the spell selection of a sorcerer combined with action economy limits their potential cheese to a manageable level. Sure, they might be powerful, but their cheese is weak. They can be ridiculous in one area but spell selection prevents them from being ridiculous in all areas.

Now I'm trying to find a hole in our plans. Let's say I can cast an infinite amount of spells per day, per encounter! Alright! That's awesome!

But I'm a sorcerer. @#$!

Other than the "Extra Spell" feat, are there any ways to dramatically expand my spell selection at below ECL 10?

What spells 5th level and below would you pick if they were infinitely spammable? Remember that spell selection is limited, so even though a spell might be really cool, you give up casting all the other spells for it. Opportunity cost is a real [REDACTED].

We're already aware of single-spell cheese (polymorph, groan), but are there any spells that become much more powerful with repeated castings?

nekomata2
2010-05-19, 09:34 PM
Polymorph immediately comes to mind. Also, Wings of Flurry, Wings of Cover, Black Tentacles, and probably shadow conjuration all come to wind as useful to be able to cast repeatedly. Oh, and Alter Self.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-19, 09:38 PM
My friends and I were having a discussion about spellcaster endurance compared to spellcaster versatility. One of us proposed that sorcerers (and by extension spontaneous casters) aren't particularly broken at ECL 10 or below even if they could cast an infinite amount of spells. (By particularly broken, we mean in the whole scope of D&D. Obviously a tireless spellcaster is relatively broken, but it could much, much worse. :smalltongue:) Apparently the spell selection of a sorcerer combined with action economy limits their potential cheese to a manageable level. Sure, they might be powerful, but their cheese is weak. They can be ridiculous in one area but spell selection prevents them from being ridiculous in all areas.

Now I'm trying to find a hole in our plans. Let's say I can cast an infinite amount of spells per day, per encounter! Alright! That's awesome!

But I'm a sorcerer. @#$!

Other than the "Extra Spell" feat, are there any ways to dramatically expand my spell selection at below ECL 10?

What spells 5th level and below would you pick if they were infinitely spammable? Remember that spell selection is limited, so even though a spell might be really cool, you give up casting all the other spells for it. Opportunity cost is a real [REDACTED].

We're already aware of single-spell cheese (polymorph, groan), but are there any spells that become much more powerful with repeated castings?

Althought it looses a spell level, an two level dip into sandshaper gives quite a bit of spells KNOWN, across all spell levels.

Summon Monster line might be useful due many of the summonable cratures having SLA that are useful, grease and glitterdust also seem to be a good option

Greenish
2010-05-19, 09:39 PM
Explosive Runes.

Yorrin
2010-05-19, 09:40 PM
Use Arcane Disciple or something to gain Spiritual Weapon. They last a number of rounds equal to your CL, meaning you'll essentially have a number of attacks equal to your CL every round. Those become full attacks if you don't have to move the blades. Find some way to cast Divine Power on yourself and you've got 4xCL attacks against immobile foes.

Optimystik
2010-05-19, 09:43 PM
Both Sand Shaper (Sandstorm) and Exalted Arcanist (BoED) give you a pile of free spells known. SS can be entered at 5th-level, or even earlier with CL-boosting cheese and a permissive DM. EA can be entered at 6th level and grants two extra spells known at each level up to the capstone, at which point they add every sanctified spell in the game to their spells known as well.

gbprime
2010-05-19, 10:01 PM
You can also extend a sorcerer's usefulness by taking the Searing Spell feat from Sandstorm. This completely bypasses energy resistance and chops energy immunity off at the knees, allowing one or two damage dealing spells to be univerally useful. This leaves more spells known available for defense and altering the conditions of the fight (which is arguably an arcane caster's primary job).

The Glyphstone
2010-05-19, 10:08 PM
Arcane Disciple (Healing)?

Optimystik
2010-05-19, 10:11 PM
Arcane Disciple (Healing)?

Unfortunately, AD only adds the spells to your class list - a sorcerer must still use his spells known to actually learn them.

This makes Arcane Disciple almost useless for Sorcerers, though it comes in much more handy for prepared casters (like wizards) or spontaneous casters that automatically know their entire list (war mages, beguilers, dread necros.)

balistafreak
2010-05-19, 10:32 PM
Let's see, going down the list:

Wings of Cover will be awesome when you don't have to make the decision whether or not to burn the slot, and Wings of Flurry remains as stupidly good as always.

Why a two-level dip into Sand Shaper? It seems you only need one level to get the spells known. The only thing you get for a two level dip is Sandform, and quite frankly I think there are better PrCs out there. :smallconfused: The Summon Monster line is a bit awkward - the entire line eats a lot of spells known.

Oh gods, infinite Explosive Runes. One Dispel Magic later, hey! :smallbiggrin:

Spiritual Weapon seems a bit underwhelming. Using the Domain Access ACF in Complete Champion seems like a terrible idea - the wording only lets us cast the Domain spell once per day. Same with the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine. Nuts. :smallannoyed:

Sand Shaper we just covered... Exalted Arcanist? Nice for spell gains, but the feat requirements hurt somewhat. So does losing a level of casting on entrance. Hmmmm.

Searing Spell is cool, but don't all the Metamagic-quickeners for spontaneous casters have limits on daily uses? If there's one that doesn't have such a problem, awesome. Searing Spell isn't bad without it, but it could be better.

... so yeah, Arcane Disciple is sadly quite useless for our purposes. Hmmmm.

I have to bounce for now; I'll see what else I can dig up tomorrow.

The Shadowmind
2010-05-19, 10:45 PM
Grab a spellwurm and if you have room the feat a mother cyst as well.

lsfreak
2010-05-19, 10:45 PM
Arcane Fusion and its big brother comes to mind. Every single round you get 4 spells (arcane fusion + quickened arcane fusion). Throw in Repeat/Twin plus Residual Metamagic and Sanctum Spell cheese on the lesser version and nest it in Greater for fun, profit, and headaches.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-19, 10:50 PM
... Wall of Iron/Wall of Stone/Fabricate. Build your own city.

In the standard dungeon crawl setting, minutes/level and 10 minutes/level buffs just became all day buffs.

JeminiZero
2010-05-19, 10:53 PM
Summon Monster line might be useful due many of the summonable cratures having SLA that are useful, grease and glitterdust also seem to be a good option

The real power of Summon Monster is that their effects extend beyond the initial casting time.

So lets say you are a Sorcerer with infinite spells per day. You could polymorph your familiar into something rideable and sit on him. While your familiar is carrying you around as such, you can cast Summon Monster, non-stop. You can now start fights with X summon monsters out and ready, where X depends on CL.

Optimystik
2010-05-19, 10:54 PM
Sand Shaper we just covered... Exalted Arcanist? Nice for spell gains, but the feat requirements hurt somewhat. So does losing a level of casting on entrance. Hmmmm.


The lost level doesn't hurt as much with EA as it does with other PrCs, because you still gain spells known at that level - just not spells/day or CL.

Well, CL is a dime a dozen to boost, and spells/day has rarely ever been a sorcerer's problem (especially in this scenario, where the sorc has infinite.)

So in general you lose very little, and in this specific scenario you lose almost nothing.

I'm not sure why you say the feat requirements hurt. Consecrate Spell = half of all your damage becomes untyped. Purify Spell = your good allies no longer take damage from your spells. Not only does this eliminate the possibility of friendly fire; fiends take extra.

Can you tell EA is one of my favorite PrCs? :smallsmile:

AmberVael
2010-05-19, 11:03 PM
Here's one trail my mind is going down.

If you have infinite spells per day, you have no reason not to use your highest spell slots.
If you have no reason not to use your highest spell slots, things that increase spell slots but grant a bonus are now much more desirable and useful.

Things like say, metamagic. You've essentially taken metamagic's cost and turned it into a slight limit. You've got no reason not to Extend that spell, unless it is simply too high of level to extend. You have no reason NOT to quicken a spell every round if you can.

Honestly, I think Heighten Spell might actually be a viable metamagic in this. It allows you to boost your lower level spells to higher level points, to an extent- therefore granting you more versatility. It's not a waste to raise a spell up, say, six levels if you've got no other metamagic to stick on it. You don't lose anything by doing it.

PId6
2010-05-19, 11:15 PM
Wings of Cover and Arcane Fusion are must-haves. Casting 3 spells a turn definitely helps break the action economy aspect of it. I'd suggest Arcane Fusion + Celerity, but that would just be abusive. :smallwink:

Knowstones (Dragon-Something) gets you extra spells at level^2 * 1000 gp, so you can get quite a few extra spells that way. 3rd level spells are only 9k each, while 2nd level ones are 4k which is very affordable at that level.

A way to bust infinite spells/day easily would be just loading up on buff spells with 1 min/level or greater duration and just casting them all whenever needed. Using those spells on an improved familiar can lead to a very powerful killing machine. Likewise Extended SMIV lets you have an army of size 2*CL with you wherever you go.

Also, Spellblade Tennis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151109).

lsfreak
2010-05-19, 11:16 PM
Arcane Fusion and its big brother comes to mind. Every single round you get 4 spells (arcane fusion + quickened arcane fusion). Throw in Repeat/Twin plus Residual Metamagic and Sanctum Spell cheese on the lesser version and nest it in Greater for fun, profit, and headaches.

Actually, you know what, I revise my statement. If you can get Arcane Fusion down to 4th level, you get truly infinite spells per round. Considering you will eventually roll a 20 or they're roll a 1 on whatever save or check needs to be made since it is a truly infinite number of spells per round, rather than the normal 'limited by spell slots,' you can afford to throw billions of spells at someone in a 6-second period in order to get the effect off that you want.

Optimystik
2010-05-19, 11:22 PM
Note that the above say more about the brokenness of Arcane Fusion than that of having unlimited spells/day.

lsfreak
2010-05-19, 11:33 PM
Note that the above say more about the brokenness of Arcane Fusion than that of having unlimited spells/day.

Actually, probably more about the brokenness of letting Sanctum Spell actually lower a spell's level, rather than a more reasonable houserule of lowering the save DC. The rule in question is a guaranteed 2 spells a round at 9th level (Rapid Metamagic + Quickened spell, using Versatile Spellcaster if necessary); Arcane Fusion bumps it up to 4 spells a round but doesn't allow for Versatile Spellcaster to let you use higher-level metmamagic slots than you should be able to.

Which, btw, leads to the first 4 feats I'd take with this rule in effect. Versatile Spellcaster (ups your level-limit for metamagic), Heighten Spell (so that you're always casting a max-level spell as limited by Versatile Spellcaster or Arcane Fusion), Quicken Magic, and Rapid Metamagic.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-19, 11:40 PM
Unfortunately, AD only adds the spells to your class list - a sorcerer must still use his spells known to actually learn them.

This makes Arcane Disciple almost useless for Sorcerers, though it comes in much more handy for prepared casters (like wizards) or spontaneous casters that automatically know their entire list (war mages, beguilers, dread necros.)

Still, if we have infinite spells per day, it's worth it. I'd take the feat just to get Heal at-will, for truely infinite endurance.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-19, 11:41 PM
:smallconfused: The Summon Monster line is a bit awkward - the entire line eats a lot of spells known.

But you only need the highest level one, if you can cast it at will. If you're doing it over the course of a campaign, just switch them out as you gain levels.

PId6
2010-05-19, 11:43 PM
There's a Sor-only 5th level healing spell in Dragon Magic, Undying Vigor of the Dragon Lords. There's infinite healing for you.

Optimystik
2010-05-19, 11:44 PM
But you only need the highest level one, if you can cast it at will. If you're doing it over the course of a campaign, just switch them out as you gain levels.

Keep SM1 though - Celestial Monkeys can turn latches and open chests for you.

PId6
2010-05-19, 11:45 PM
Keep SM1 though - Celestial Monkeys can turn latches and open chests for you.
Can't Bearded Devils do that just as well?

Divide by Zero
2010-05-19, 11:47 PM
Keep SM1 though - Celestial Monkeys can turn latches and open chests for you.

And you can't use SMIX for 1d4+1 of them because...

Optimystik
2010-05-20, 12:28 AM
And you can't use SMIX for 1d4+1 of them because...

Because... the concentration check is easier! :smalltongue:

(I forgot that the 1d4+1 option applies to anything 7 and below, and not just 7.)

jseah
2010-05-20, 02:48 AM
Infinite spells?

Divination spells suddenly own. Never EVER have to scout again, never fail to get that surprise round.

5th level - CoP (take 10 on the check) or Prying Eyes if that's not allowed
4th - Arcane Eye if no Prying Eyes
3rd - Clairaudience/clairvoyance
0th - Detect magic, never ever miss that enchantment again

Don't forget to check out whereever you're going first.

Optimystik
2010-05-20, 03:23 AM
Can't Bearded Devils do that just as well?

A Bearded Devil is more likely to plot eons of revenge against your bloodline for being humiliated than a celestial monkey :smallwink:

2xMachina
2010-05-20, 03:30 AM
Too bad you don't get 9th lvl spells.

When you do, Arcane Disciple (Luck) for unlimited Miracles.

Wings of Cover: Once every round, NO to anything (better than IOTSV)
Dim Door: Travel options!
Maximized Power Word: Pain: Hit them with it, and leg it with Dim. Door.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-20, 04:10 AM
The Bloodline feats (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) (start on page 112, skip native bloodlines) grant you a spell known at every spell level. Mother Cyst from Libris Mortis adds quite a few spells known.

Fortuna
2010-05-20, 04:15 AM
Ooh, and on page 114 of that pdf is Infernal Sorcerer Heritage (blech) and Infernal Sorcerer Howl (10d6 Sonic damage in a cone at-will).

2xMachina
2010-05-20, 05:00 AM
Dip DFA and take metabreath spells? You can do this every round.

lvl 3:
Blinding breath. Ref Save or blind
lvl 4:
Dispelling breath. Ref Save or Targetted Dispel as many targets as you can fit in 30ft cone
Stunning breath. Fort Save or stun 1 round
lvl 7:
Animate Breath. Pets?
Greater Stunning Breath. Fort save or stun 2d4 rounds.
lvl 8:
Enervating breath. Ref Save or 2d4 negative lvls

Given that your Con would be decent, and most people dump their ref save...

jseah
2010-05-21, 03:31 AM
^One would imagine that fabricate conserves mass. But that's physics... XD

2xMachina
2010-05-21, 05:03 AM
I say it's different.

Raw platinum is worth less than platinum that has been made into coins.

See real world money (copper pennies excluded). Pretty sure your $100 bill does not have $100 worth in paper and ink.

Critical
2010-05-21, 05:26 AM
Infinite Time Stop?..

The Mentalist
2010-05-21, 06:26 AM
Arcane Strike from Complete Warrior.

Infinite spell slots = infinite damage

jseah
2010-05-21, 06:31 AM
I say it's different.

Raw platinum is worth less than platinum that has been made into coins.

See real world money (copper pennies excluded). Pretty sure your $100 bill does not have $100 worth in paper and ink.
That is fine. You can turn metal into currency and justifiably get the 3x increase.

But you can't use currency to get more currency by melting down the metal since the metal doesn't increase in mass.


Of course, it's magic, it could very well increase in mass but eh...

2xMachina
2010-05-21, 06:33 AM
I thought you were buying raw Platinum with platinum coins, then fabricating those raw platinum into platinum coins to buy more raw platinum.

Coin making machine FTW.

jseah
2010-05-21, 06:38 AM
Of course, this being a medieval setting (I assume) the currency is likely silver/gold/platinum forged itself and is literally worth its weight in gold.
You are not earning that 3x bonus in a non-diluted currency. Which if it is, doing so is extremely illegal.


That said, if your setting has fiat currency, I say it's totally awesome and an unfolding economic disaster is far more interesting to watch than some lizard in a mudhole.

Last Laugh
2010-05-21, 07:10 AM
Edit:Nothing to see here.

AmberVael
2010-05-21, 07:18 AM
First, that's on page 61. Second, the next paragraph:


You can use this class feature a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Int modifier (minimum 1). This is an extraordinary ability.

2xMachina
2010-05-21, 07:21 AM
Arcane preparation.

Prepare your metamagic spells. Leave the rest as spontaneous.

EDIT: Also opens up the juicy Mage of the Arcane Order.

Munchkin-Masher
2010-05-21, 07:21 AM
Try to get a Arcane Familiar From Fiend Folio (Page 219) It gives you 2 spells know of any level (as Spell Knowlegde (DMG page 210)).

Last Laugh
2010-05-21, 08:39 AM
First, that's on page 61. Second, the next paragraph:

oops, ya thanks. dumbolme

Draz74
2010-05-21, 11:16 AM
Lots of good ideas here, but nobody has mentioned Runestaves, which (after Knowstones, which are often banned for being Dragon material) are the most normal, awesome way to increase Sorcerer spells known quite nicely. (Well, not spells "known," actually; but spells castable.)

PId6
2010-05-21, 04:51 PM
Lots of good ideas here, but nobody has mentioned Runestaves, which (after Knowstones, which are often banned for being Dragon material) are the most normal, awesome way to increase Sorcerer spells known quite nicely. (Well, not spells "known," actually; but spells castable.)
Unfortunately, Runestaves are limited uses per day. So while they're nice to have anyway, they don't really do anything to break the infinite spells/day thing.