Something that's been bothering me ever since the desert scenes... [Archive]

enh

2010-05-19, 11:50 PM

The ages of the Order of the Scribble are really messing with my head.

From #277, we know that after splitting up, they spent "years" setting up their various and sundry ways of guarding their respective gates. Soon Kim lived long enough to be considered "aged" and died when Shojo was a boy; that was 70-ish years ago if the "octogenarian" comment in #408 was accurate (and leaves a decade of wiggle room).

Start of Darkness lets us know what happens to Dorukan and Lirian. If memory serves, D&D halflings are long-lived like Tolkien's halflings, so Serini could conceivably be alive if perhaps not in peak fighting condition.

Girard's recorded message is clearly pretty old, as he allows for the possibility that Soon his present in person. But the party talks (#698) as if his betting pool is a recent thing, instead of being some 140+ years ago. Then they catch the 10,000 gp line and reason that a winner will be spending it, but that sum was "if it's been no more than 12 weeks," and it's been a lot longer than that since the Order of the Scribble split up to guard their gates.

Why is the party expecting Girard to be alive? Why are they expecting the betting pool to still be in place?

5tephen

2010-05-20, 12:06 AM

That's....

A really good point.

Zevox

2010-05-20, 12:19 AM

But the party talks (#698) as if his betting pool is a recent thing, instead of being some 140+ years ago.
This is where you're stumbling. The Order of the Scribble's adventures are much more recent than that. Soon's wife was killed sixty-six years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), and presumably he set up his group shortly after that. How long their adventures lasted, when the gate construction began, etc is unknown, but is certainly much more recent than what you assumed. Which is in part why Girard may still be alive - assuming he was no more than in his 30s during their adventure, he could be alive and simply very old by Human standards, even without magical enhancements to keep him alive beyond the normal limits (which are also possible, given he was an epic-level spellcaster).

You also mentioned Start of Darkness showing Dorukon's fate - remember that he was Human, but only met his fate 6 months before the comic proper began according to SoD.

Oh, and Shojo's exact age, according to War and XPs, was 72. In case that helps.

Zevox

snikrept

2010-05-20, 12:25 AM

I too thought the asumption that the betting pool was still on was a bit weak on the OOTS' part. Also that the people they were looking for would go on a spending spree immediately; presumably if Girard's allies can casually bet ten thousand GP they're pretty rich already.

But then again their other option was 'comb the entire desert 10 foot square by 10 foot square'...

Darius1020

2010-05-20, 12:32 AM

The octogenarian comment was just an exaggeration that Roy said, probably to point out how screwed up Miko's killing of an old man was. The Scribble was around 66 years ago, and since Shojo was a kid when Soon gave the throne to Shojo's dad, and Shojo ruled for 47 years, that puts him at around sixty something when he died.

Soon was probably a good twenty (likely more) years or so older than Dorukon and Girard, and since he couldn't magically extend his life (I think), and Dorukon and Girard, both being spell casters, likely could, its reasonable to assume that Soon died significantly before the others.

Also, years of fighting and stress could have made Soon look older than he actually was, thus explaining Shojo's "Aged Soon."

At some point in there I may have lost track of the question at hand, so I'm not sure how relevant that wall of text will end up being...

enh

2010-05-20, 01:15 AM

Ah, I'd forgotten about #276, that helps considerably. Thanks to all who pointed it out.

Oh, and Shojo's exact age, according to War and XPs, was 72. In case that helps.

So far I've only purchased the first of the non-prequel books. Unlike Girard and his allies, I do not have 10,000 gold burning a hole in my pocket. :-)

Teddy

2010-05-20, 01:39 AM

Then they catch the 10,000 gp line and reason that a winner will be spending it, but that sum was "if it's been no more than 12 weeks," and it's been a lot longer than that since the Order of the Scribble split up to guard their gates.

What Girard said was that if it had been no more than 12 weeks, he would have won the 10 000 gp. That means that if it has been more than 12 weeks, someone else has won them instead.

factotum

2010-05-20, 01:48 AM

The Scribble was around 66 years ago, and since Shojo was a kid when Soon gave the throne to Shojo's dad, and Shojo ruled for 47 years, that puts him at around sixty something when he died.

There's a flaw in the logic there--you seem to be assuming that Shojo started ruling as soon as the throne was given to his father, which doesn't follow. As said above, Shojo's age at his death was given as 72 in War and XPs.

That still makes things hard to add up, though--Shojo would already have been 6 years old when Soon's wife was killed, and he didn't look much older than that when an "aged" Soon handed the Sapphire over to his father. Suggests Soon was a lot older during the adventures of the Order of the Scribble than he appeared.

Kurald Galain

2010-05-20, 03:17 AM

Girard's recorded message is clearly pretty old, as he allows for the possibility that Soon his present in person. But the party talks (#698) as if his betting pool is a recent thing, instead of being some 140+ years ago. Then they catch the 10,000 gp line and reason that a winner will be spending it, but that sum was "if it's been no more than 12 weeks," and it's been a lot longer than that since the Order of the Scribble split up to guard their gates.

I think that still works, though. Girard's spell lasts until triggered, even if it takes years. And then he sits in his lair with his old friends and mentions, "Hey guys, you know that spell I set up twelve years ago? It just went off." It's precisely the kind of event that may rouse them from boredom and gives them an excuse to head into town.

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-05-20, 05:56 AM

There's a flaw in the logic there--you seem to be assuming that Shojo started ruling as soon as the throne was given to his father, which doesn't follow. As said above, Shojo's age at his death was given as 72 in War and XPs.
I don’t recall where, but somewhere—possibly a War and XPs bonus strip—it is mentioned how long Shojo ruled. All that really does is show that Shojo’s father only ruled for a few short years before Shojo took over.

That still makes things hard to add up, though--Shojo would already have been 6 years old when Soon's wife was killed, and he didn't look much older than that when an "aged" Soon handed the Sapphire over to his father.
Not sure how much difference there is in the physical appearance of a scribble-stick-figure six-year old and a scribble-stick-figure nine-year old there. Personally, I’d refrain from hazarding a guess.

Ted The Bug

2010-05-20, 08:08 AM

Shale

2010-05-20, 08:23 AM

I don’t recall where, but somewhere—possibly a War and XPs bonus strip—it is mentioned how long Shojo ruled. All that really does is show that Shojo’s father only ruled for a few short years before Shojo took over.

47 years. It's in the Crayons of Time.

Darcy

2010-05-20, 08:58 AM

This isn't really hard evidence but let's bear in mind that Dorukan was alive up until fairly recently.

Swordpriest

2010-05-20, 09:05 AM

IMO, they were never meant to find any information that way. It was their only lead, and they were desperate, so Rich had them search the nearby cities as a way to get Elan/V/Haley captured and brought to the EoB, where Elan would meet Tarquin.

Pretty much. After all, the two party members who were probably most likely to find any information about Girard and his possible buddies/followers, Haley and V, didn't turn up anything about him. Of course, we haven't seen the rest of the party yet, but I can't imagine that they are much more successful (Belkar more successful than Haley at finding anything? That'll be the day :smallbiggrin:!)

Zevox

2010-05-20, 10:43 AM

There's a flaw in the logic there--you seem to be assuming that Shojo started ruling as soon as the throne was given to his father, which doesn't follow. As said above, Shojo's age at his death was given as 72 in War and XPs.

That still makes things hard to add up, though--Shojo would already have been 6 years old when Soon's wife was killed, and he didn't look much older than that when an "aged" Soon handed the Sapphire over to his father. Suggests Soon was a lot older during the adventures of the Order of the Scribble than he appeared.
As mentioned, we were told specifically that Shojo had ruled Azure City for 47 years at the end of the Crayons of Time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). That there is only a twenty-year (approximately) gap between that and the Order of the Scribble's adventures merely suggests that Soon's father only ruled for a little over a decade after being given control of the Sapphire Guard (presumably he had ruled the city proper for some time before that, unless he died young).

And yes, that Soon himself was the oldest of the Order of the Scribble - speculation that he may have been at least in his fifties during their adventures is not uncommon. I would be curious to know how this is "older than he appeared," though, given the extremely limited ways of communicating age visually in stick figures. Outside of white/gray hair and wrinkles, which seem to be reserved for very old characters like Shojo, how exactly do you expect to determine a stick figure's age by appearance?

Zevox

NerfTW

2010-05-20, 10:54 AM

Why is the party expecting Girard to be alive? Why are they expecting the betting pool to still be in place?

As they said in that sequence, it's the only thing they have to go on. The alternative is to give up and go home.

HammerCrush

2010-05-20, 10:55 AM

It just doesn't add up.

If, as someone state, Shojo was 72 when he died, than he was 8 years old when SOON'S WIFE WAS KILLED. Oks, that's point nº 1

Then,we learn that he ruled AC for 47 years (strip 277) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), meaning that he was enthroned at 25 years old. Point nº 2

So Soon, in a time gap of 25-8 = 17 years, got the party together, found the 5 rifts, sealed them all, and finaly, builded up a massive guard and ruled it until short before his death, tranferring the command to Shojo's father, who than died and tranfered to Shojo, right?

BUT, if Shojo was still a kid when Soon transfered the SG command to his father, he could have at most 12 years. After all, past 13 he would be a TEENAGER, and we all know how important this difference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) is to Rich. That reduces the time from 17 to 4 years to accomplish all that.

So we're forced to assume that either: a)An Aged Soon = +4 aged Soon, with give us a + 50 years old Soon in the BEGINNING of the Crayons of Time, or; b) There was a confusion in the timeline, that Rich didn't get it. Because sure, Soon was definitly older than the rest of the party, but I never thinked of him in his middles 50's.

See you guys

Zevox

2010-05-20, 11:36 AM

If, as someone state, Shojo was 72 when he died, than he was 8 years old when SOON'S WIFE WAS KILLED. Oks, that's point nº 1
Er, 6, not 8. 72-66 = 6. Which gives 19 years between Soon's wife's death and Shojo's being enthroned.

BUT, if Shojo was still a kid when Soon transfered the SG command to his father, he could have at most 12 years. After all, past 13 he would be a TEENAGER, and we all know how important this difference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) is to Rich. That reduces the time from 17 to 4 years to accomplish all that.
Ridiculous supposition based on a joke. Naturally the transfer of power from Soon to Shojo's father has to have occurred years before Shojo was enthroned, given he clearly was not a full adult at the time, but it does not have to have been before his teenage years.

So we're forced to assume that either: a)An Aged Soon = +4 aged Soon, with give us a + 50 years old Soon in the BEGINNING of the Crayons of Time
Which, as I mentioned in my last post, is a not uncommon speculation.

Zevox

NerfTW

2010-05-20, 11:48 AM

The idea that Soon created the Sapphire Guard and only lasted a few years is not that much of a stretch. Azure city was already around when the rifts were sealed. (we can see it in the strip) Shojo could have formed the guard, then immediately transferred control over to Shojo's father and died later. Or even sacrificed himself while still alive to start the ghost Sapphire Guard.

We do not know that Soon died of old age.

And while it's taken the Order two years, keep in mind that they have people working against them. The Scribble still had the benefit of nobody knowing what the rifts were, and having their exact locations.

ChrisFortyTwo

2010-05-20, 12:31 PM

So Soon, in a time gap of 25-8 = 17 4 years, found the 5 rifts, sealed them all, and finaly, builded up a massive guard and ruled it until short before his death, tranferring the command to Shojo's father, who than died and tranfered to Shojo

The hobbit - ~5 months from Gandalf finding Bilbo to Smaug's death, and only another month until the War of the Five Armies.

Lord of the Rings - ~ 1 1/2 years from Gandalf finding Frodo to the destruction of the Ring. A year and a half! for what is considered
one of the most epic adventures in fantasy.

OOtS (to date) - ~1 year, and they wasted months when Roy was dead, and it's expected that the story will end within a few months of in-comic time.

Almost any published campaign - 1-3 years in game time.

The point: it's fantasy, things happen much quicker, because they just do. Combine teleport, major creation, and a host of other spells, and you don't need 20 years to do all that stuff, you need 2 months and a wizard.

So:

Could Soon have started the whole mess in his 50s, when his son had a 6 year old son of his own (and possibly a daughter - Hinjo's mother)?
Sure - I mean, he was travelling and having a picnic with his wife on their own. That's what my parents did once my brother and I left the house, and they are in their 50s (without the whole being consumed by a god-killing abomination, of course).

Could the Order of the Scribble have gotten together, closed the rifts, sealed the rifts, gotten into an argument, went their separate ways, and developed their plans to guard their rifts within a few years?
Sure - they were epic (or close to epic) level and had tons of resources.
They could have finished the whole thing in a few months.

Could an aged Soon have transferred the throne and continued to advised his son?
Sure. He transferred the throne while still alive. Perhaps after setting up the Sapphire Guard, he was considering the lasting goal of guarding the rift, and wanted to spend the necessary time to pass the knowledge on and make sure everything was working right. Hinjo knows about it, which means that although Shojo didn't trust him with the throne yet, he did entrust the Sapphire Guard info to him, probably before he went "senile", to ensure that the information was taken at it's full worth.

Could his son have been assassinated about a decade later by power hungry nobles?
Sure. The nobles have been trying to assassinate Shojo, and then try to assassinate Hinjo. Why wouldn't they have gone after Shojo's father?

Could Soon have died at 72 after being on the throne for 47 years?
Yes, because that's what happened. There is no contradiction.

So, the whole thing: Plausible

hamishspence

2010-05-20, 12:37 PM

factotum

2010-05-20, 01:03 PM

I would be curious to know how this is "older than he appeared," though, given the extremely limited ways of communicating age visually in stick figures. Outside of white/gray hair and wrinkles, which seem to be reserved for very old characters like Shojo, how exactly do you expect to determine a stick figure's age by appearance?

Well, if you look at the Crayons of Time strips again you'll notice that Soon appears with black (or conceivably grey) hair in every single panel EXCEPT for the one where he hands over the sapphire to Shojo's father, where he has white hair. Now, unless he'd had a really bad accident with a large bowl of bleach that morning, this would tend to indicate that he was a lot older when he handed over the sapphire than he was in any of the other panels of the strip, wouldn't you say?

Nerdanel

2010-05-20, 01:25 PM

The white hair simply means Soon had graduated from Middle Age to the Old age category, or in other words, turned 53. In that picture Soon, a human, is 53 to 69 years old, as his face isn't wrinkled enough to meet the OOTS standard for Venerable. Based on the face of his ghost, he never reached Venerable and thus didn't die of old age.

If you pay attention, you'll see that the OOTS aging follows D&D age categories with some extra for children and teenagers. If you pay attention, you can pinpoint a humanoid etc. stick figure character's age category by their appearance.

Almaseti

2010-05-20, 02:19 PM

Two things:

we know from seeing Roy's Mom that how old you look as a ghost/spirit is dependent on how old you think of yourself as, so the age of Soon's Ghost doesn't tell us anything about how old he was when he died. He could have always had an "old man" outlook, he could have started going senile and not really remembered getting older than that, whatever.

And Dorukan was described as the "new kid" in Serini's diary, so it's possible he's younger than the rest of the group. Girard, on the other had, Serini had a crush on, so she presumably thought of him as less childish.

I wouldn't be surprised if Girard was dead, myself, but it's not a sure thing.

doodthedud

2010-05-20, 02:21 PM

SPoD

2010-05-20, 02:28 PM

Why is the party expecting Girard to be alive?

They're not "expecting" anything. Acting from the premise that he is alive gives them one possible lead. Acting from the premise that he is dead gives them zero possible leads. One is greater than zero.

Why are they expecting the betting pool to still be in place?

Because if Girard is dead, his organization may well be still operating, much as the Sapphire Guard was still operating long after Soon died. And if some of the people who were alive at that time are still alive now, then the pool would still be in place, theoretically...even if they all have forgotten about it until the spell triggers.

Zevox

2010-05-20, 02:39 PM

Well, if you look at the Crayons of Time strips again you'll notice that Soon appears with black (or conceivably grey) hair in every single panel EXCEPT for the one where he hands over the sapphire to Shojo's father, where he has white hair. Now, unless he'd had a really bad accident with a large bowl of bleach that morning, this would tend to indicate that he was a lot older when he handed over the sapphire than he was in any of the other panels of the strip, wouldn't you say?
No, it does not mean that he was a lot older - just older. The amount of aging he'd have to do to acquire the white hair does not have to be significant.

The white hair simply means Soon had graduated from Middle Age to the Old age category, or in other words, turned 53. In that picture Soon, a human, is 53 to 69 years old, as his face isn't wrinkled enough to meet the OOTS standard for Venerable. Based on the face of his ghost, he never reached Venerable and thus didn't die of old age.

If you pay attention, you'll see that the OOTS aging follows D&D age categories with some extra for children and teenagers. If you pay attention, you can pinpoint a humanoid etc. stick figure character's age category by their appearance.
I'm afraid you're quite wrong. Wrinkles are not universal to venerable characters. We have seen two of those that we know of for sure - Shojo, and Dorukon (who had to be into his 80s at a bare minimum during his fight with Xykon, even assuming he was a mere teenager during their adventures - quite possibly into his 90s or even the off chance of 100s depending on his precise age during the adventures). Shojo had wrinkles. Dorukon did not - he just had white hair.

Two things:

we know from seeing Roy's Mom that how old you look as a ghost/spirit is dependent on how old you think of yourself as, so the age of Soon's Ghost doesn't tell us anything about how old he was when he died. He could have always had an "old man" outlook, he could have started going senile and not really remembered getting older than that, whatever.
We do not know that, actually. We know that that is how appearances work in the afterlife - not whether the same remains true for undead and undead-equivalent spirits like the Ghost-Martyrs.

And Dorukan was described as the "new kid" in Serini's diary, so it's possible he's younger than the rest of the group.
It is possible that he was younger, but that is not evidence of it - that merely tells us that he was the last to join the group.

Girard, on the other had, Serini had a crush on, so she presumably thought of him as less childish.
Presumably based on what? There is no logical connection there, and nothing to suggest Serini thought of any of the group as childish.

Zevox

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-05-20, 08:27 PM

47 years. It's in the Crayons of Time.
Wow. Missed that. Somehow, I remembered that tidbit as being in a bonus strip.

No, it does not mean that he was a lot older - just older. The amount of aging he'd have to do to acquire the white hair does not have to be significant.
Hell, he doesn’t even have to have acquired the white hair between the adventure and the transfer of power. If Soon, say, had a vain streak there may have been a period of time he dyed or magically colored his hair.

Really, hair color means absolutely nothing.

Zevox

2010-05-20, 08:43 PM

Hell, he doesn’t even have to have acquired the white hair between the adventure and the transfer of power. If Soon, say, had a vain streak there may have been a period of time he dyed or magically colored his hair.

Really, hair color means absolutely nothing.
Theoretically so, but that strikes me as the sort of out-there supposition that we should require actual evidence of in order to give it serious consideration.

Zevox

Red XIV

2010-05-20, 09:01 PM

I'm still of the opinion that it would've made for smoother continuity had the Giant set the Order of the Scribble's quest a little bit further in the past, but it's not really a big deal.

Swordpriest

2010-05-20, 09:24 PM

The timeframe is a bit short, IMO. But it doesn't really impact the story too heavily.

factotum

2010-05-21, 01:27 AM

No, it does not mean that he was a lot older - just older. The amount of aging he'd have to do to acquire the white hair does not have to be significant.

I think it generally takes more than a couple of years to go from dark-haired to completely white-haired...

Nimrod's Son

2010-05-21, 02:22 AM

Or one really good scare.

Coidzor

2010-05-21, 04:16 AM

Maybe he found it was all white or mostly white at some point and decided to just stop dyeing it?

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-05-21, 05:34 AM

Theoretically so, but that strikes me as the sort of out-there supposition that we should require actual evidence of in order to give it serious consideration.
That’s kind of the point. There’s no evidence for what made his hair grey or how long the greying process took. Some people grey when they are really young, some people when they are older. Some people grey very slowly, and some people grey quite rapidly. Some people dye their hair, and some people don’t. So no valid supposition can really be made regarding Soon’s character or the amount of time passed based solely upon hair color.

factotum

2010-05-21, 06:32 AM

Or one really good scare.

I believe the idea that a fright can turn your hair white is an urban legend.

Learnedguy

2010-05-21, 06:46 AM

I believe the idea that a fright can turn your hair white is an urban legend.

Perhaps, but aging prematurely because of stress isn't. I've heard that your president Abraham Lincoln aged premature because of the weight of his office.

And I think we all can agree on Soon being under a lot of pressure during the course of his campaign.

Nimrod's Son

2010-05-21, 07:22 AM

I believe the idea that a fright can turn your hair white is an urban legend.
I wasn't serious... but in any case, this is a universe where rage can turn your pants purple. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) Fright turning your hair white is nothing. :smalltongue:

Swordpriest

2010-05-21, 09:05 AM

Somehow, I doubt that Soon is the type to dye his hair. I mean, vanity is the last thing I'd expect from this guy. :smallbiggrin: Asceticism and cold baths are probably more his style. :smallwink:

ref

2010-05-21, 09:13 AM

Maybe he fought a ghost and the ghost got a couple hits?

ChrisFortyTwo

2010-05-21, 09:40 AM

There's nothing, even in War & XPs, suggesting that Shojo's father, Lord Ronjo, was related to Soon Kim.

It mentioned that the castle was built by "Soon Kim and the Lord of the City" and later names him Lord Ronjo, but doesn't say anything about a connection between the two.

Here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Soon transfers command of the Sapphire Guard, because "it is crucial that the defense of the city, and defense of the gate, be in the same hands"

But it doesn't say anything about him transferring the throne.

And here Soon is referred to as "a paladin of Azure City" not "the former ruler of Azure City":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

Thank you for clarification. I apologized that I missed that; however, I think the plausibility of my earlier post is not lost. Also, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth by asserting that you were trying to deny my claim, only correct the facts.

Or one really good scare.

Since paladins are immune to fear, I assume this is a joke.

Also, considering it was Shojo telling the story, and was young at the time, maybe he saw grey and thought white. Children often think that any hair that's not a "standard" color is white. I know when I was young, I thought my grandfather had white hair, even though it varied in shades of grey through his retirement years.

AstralFire

2010-05-21, 09:49 AM

Paladins are really more immune to fear gameplay effects than to fear itself, is how I have always had it explained to me.

factotum

2010-05-21, 01:32 PM

Paladins are really more immune to fear gameplay effects than to fear itself, is how I have always had it explained to me.

Judging from strip #372 that's not how it works in OotS--Miko said she didn't beg for Xykon's mercy because her immunity to fear meant she wasn't afraid of him. That's normal, ohmygodthescaryskeletonisgoingtokillme fear, not magically-induced stuff.

Darakonis

2010-05-21, 03:56 PM

Perhaps, but aging prematurely because of stress isn't. I've heard that your president Abraham Lincoln aged premature because of the weight of his office.

I think that's a recurring theme with most of their presidents (and perhaps all world leaders?)

Compare photos of former presidents on their first and last days in office. It's amazing how just a few short years and the weight of a nation on your shoulders can age you.

Peace,
-Darakonis

Theodoriph

2010-05-21, 04:21 PM

I think that's a recurring theme with most of their presidents (and perhaps all world leaders?)

Compare photos of former presidents on their first and last days in office. It's amazing how just a few short years and the weight of a nation on your shoulders can age you.

Peace,
-Darakonis

The reason for that is that most Presidents get into office when they're middle-aged. 4 or 8 years makes a huge difference at that point.

Now if we had a 20 year old President, he wouldn't look much different at 24 or 28 :)

Really...being a President is no more stressful than most other jobs, and is probably a hell of a lot easier than many given the aides and assistants and nutritionists and fitness experts that look after you.