PDA

View Full Version : Puzzles - Your favorites and how to use them!



EccentricOwl
2010-05-20, 01:14 AM
I -love- puzzles. One of my favorite part in any RPG is the puzzle element.

For example, even simple ones tickle my fancy. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic had a favorite of mine. Essentially, you had two cups (3 gallon and 5 gallon) and you needed to fill up one with exactly 4 gallons.


But that's one simple example. Puzzles really bring games to life and let players who normally aren't very talkative sit down and do some role-playing - as well as have some catharsis when they finally figure out the puzzle.


What are some of your -FAVORITE- puzzles ? They can be puzzles you created, they can be out of other games (such as, say, Resident Evil) or they can be puzzles other have come up with.

Please, give a decent description of more complicated puzzles so they can be re-used and repeated by other readers!





1. "Two Switch" Puzzle- Altair
2. Light & Mirrors - originally from Penny Arcade
3. Shifting Stone Walls - Irreverent Fool
4. Tracing Puzzle- DonEsteban
5. Actual Jigsaw Puzzles
6. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153021 - Valadil
7. Numerical Puzzles - Valadil
8. Big Red Button Fake-Out - TheThan
9. Impressive Fire Maze - Sipex
10. A Trio of Short Puzzles - kestrel404
11. Thread-Derailing Three Doors Puzzle - Lev
12. "Just use a code!" - DonEsteban
13. Oldimarra's Ironic Gold - Starscream
14. 3-Color Puzzle - Lev
15. Not sure how to describe it - LordHenry 4000
16. ACTUALLY WORKING tracing puzzle- donesteban.
17. Deadbolts & Mirrors- DonEsteban
18. Riddles - AvatarZero
19. Paint A Door- flabort
20. Yes-or-No Door - ChrisFortyTwo
21. The Door that Just Wanted a Joke - ChrisFortyTwo
22. Fake-Out Potions - RainbowNaga
23. Slow-Burning Fuses - DonEseteban
24. Dr. McNinja's Tennis Island Laser Eye State - (Chris Hastings presented by TheEmerged)
25. Sphinx Riddle - Bharg
26. Three Guards - (Didn't they actually do that one in OOTS?)

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-20, 05:31 AM
I made a very simple puzzle in a game, which I'm quite pleased with, and which confused the players for just enough time to be entertaining.

Essentially, there were two switches, which started timers to unlock secret doors deeper into the dungeon.
All the puzzle comprised of was realising that the secret door you've just found can't be opened here, and that the (seemingly) pointless mechanism you found earlier will unlock it.

What I'm pleased about was that it fitted in with the dungeon theme, and that it made sense.
So many puzzles in games seem to be just there to be puzzles, with no real rationale behind them, in-game.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-20, 06:19 AM
The best puzzles in D&D, I think, are those like what Altair mentioned. Ideally the puzzle keeps the players involved in the game and keeps them playing in-character, rather than suddenly presenting them with an unrelated logic challenge. I warn from experience, those puzzles that work in single-player games do not always work in a multi-person D&D group. Often times those disinclined toward puzzle-solving will sit bored while others figure it out. Also, the DM is left with little to do if the puzzle is meant to be a checkpoint.

This puzzle (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/9/30/light-and-mirror-puzzle-dd/) was pretty inspiring. The DM did a good job of allowing the players to solve it in a way other than what he had envisioned. This sort of thing usually makes the players feel clever and have more fun.

In a game I played in some time ago, there were a series of doors that could only be opened in certain combinations. One had to move into the gap between the next series of doors in order to figure out the combination and obvious errors resulted in spikes jutting from the floor in the enclosed room. Meanwhile, around the party the Evil Temple of Evil(tm) was collapsing, adding pressure to solve the puzzle. Invisibility on the intervening doors allowed us to figure out the pattern without sacrificing anyone (except the character my character had been trying to murder for the whole campaign).

If you can find them, the Traps & Treachery books have a number of devious traps that could be adapted to this purpose. I also recommend The Book of Challenges. It's not all gold, but I'm sure you can find some inspiration there.

obnoxious
sig

DonEsteban
2010-05-20, 10:15 AM
I -love- puzzles. One of my favorite part in any RPG is the puzzle element.

So do I, but, amazingly, this does not seem to hold for the majority of roleplayers. One kind of puzzle our DM had for us was to outline a rune with your finger (or pencil) in one go, touching every edge exactly once. -- And BOOM! if you make a mistake.

Like this one:
http://www.markkeen.com/knight/images/knight5.jpg

valadil
2010-05-20, 10:29 AM
So do I, but, amazingly, this does not seem to hold for the majority of roleplayers. One kind of puzzle our DM had for us was to outline a rune with your finger (or pencil) in one go, touching every edge exactly once. -- And BOOM! if you make a mistake.

Like this one:
http://www.markkeen.com/knight/images/knight5.jpg

That's a cool type of puzzle. I need to remember to use those.

There are two things I look for in a puzzle. The first is that they make sense in the game world. A wizard did it only works so many times for me.

For example, one puzzle I plan on running the next time I run a modern game is an actual jigsaw puzzle. The players will be tracking someone down and they'll get access to the guy's computer. Most of his transmissions were done over ssl and therefore encrypted, but his browser's image cache will be available. What's useful in the image cache? Google maps. And the way google does their maps involves cutting the map into many, many smallish pictures that load one at a time. The players will have to sort those into a map to find the NPC's location. This puzzle fits perfectly in the game world and won't break suspense at all.

The other quality I look for in puzzles is a little harder to explain. I like puzzles with lots of little clues. What happens all too often is that the GM will describe a puzzle or riddle and the players will sit there for 5-30 minutes. Then a player has a single epiphany and the puzzle is beaten. That's no good. I want there to be epiphanies, but no one of them can win. Instead they let you work down other portions of the puzzle. I think my logic problem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153021) does that successfully. I prefer this type of puzzle because the players have more to do than wait for an answer to show up. You also have the option of giving them clues that don't end the puzzle.

Here's an example of one of those. This one doesn't fit with rule 1 so much because it is a math problem.

You have the digits 1-9. Arrange them into a number divisible by 9. If you cut off the right most digit, the number left is divisible by 8. Cutting off the next right most leaves a number divisible by 7. Etc. Find the number.

Each time the players solve one number, they make progress on all the others. What's more is that you can give them clues as they go. If they try to bludgeon the puzzle with intelligence checks, tell them about divisibility rules. Most people I've seen know 2-6 and 9. They've heard of 8 but forgot about it. And everybody has to look up the rule for 7. (Which if I recall correctly involves stripping off the right most digit, doubling it, and subtracting that from the other number. So 14 checks out because 1-8 is -7, which divides 7.) But as I said, it's very hard to make this one a part of the game world and not just a case of "here's some math homework."

Amphetryon
2010-05-20, 10:36 AM
It is *very* difficult to present puzzles that test character knowledge rather than player knowledge; for that reason, you need to be very sure that your players are the sort that enjoy having that line of demarcation breached. I've known a couple players who were either upset that 'I roll a Knowledge check' was not a viable solution, or who were thoroughly nonplussed by having 'Mensa entrance exams interspersed in their game of whack-an-orc.'

TheThan
2010-05-20, 12:07 PM
My favorite is the big red button.

The puzzle consists of a room with two doors, and a pedestal with a big red button on it. One door is the door the pcs enter and the other is the way out. Now normally you’d think the button either does something really bad, or simply unlocks the door. But in this case the button doesn’t actually do anything. The other door is open. The pcs (particularly if their metagamy) should stop and try to figure out what will happen when they hit the button. Hopefully they will spend a lot of time debating on what they should do about this big red button they ought to push, but they should be hesitant to push it because they know that doing so might unleash something bad.

The entire point is to make them waste their time while you sit there laughing.


Now if you want a more serious and simple puzzle. You do something similar, but with three rooms, three doors and three buttons. Each button unlocks a different door, so that the pcs will have to try each button and each door to see where they lead. Only one continues on with the dungeon though.

Emmerask
2010-05-20, 12:17 PM
Yep, I love using puzzles in my games too.
Some hints for usage, if the players get a solution that was not intended but is equally valid, this becomes the correct solution, let the players bask in the glory of solving your puzzle :smallwink:
Second it is really hard to estimate the time it may take to solve a puzzle I once made a cube (like in the movie) puzzle with only nine rooms which changed position based on a math formula, which was presented at the entrance of the cube, they did not get the hint ^^
So it took them 4 hours to reengineer the math behind it... and the tip behind that would be have some contingency plans, like additional tips that the players may find and use puzzles as a must solve to go on only very rarely.
Best use in my oppionion is for extra treasure or information then if the players just can´t solve it the adventure goes on none the less.

A very iconic one I really like is the 9 sphere´s test in which you have to find the one that has a sleightly lighter weight with 2 tries at the scale.

Sipex
2010-05-20, 12:20 PM
Fire Maze
A large room or hall like area which is barren except for fire erupting from the floors. There's a pass between the flames straight through the room though, simple right? Of course not.

After X number of steps the fire changes position, completely shifting the maze and safe spots. Anyone brash enough to rush in might find themselves burnt to a crisp if they can't stay on safe spots and accurately predict where the fire will move to next.

1) Create a room of your liking, for extra gotcha effect, make a straight line from the entrance to where your goal is. Now fill the room with fire except for the straight shot, this will be the default condition of the room.

2) Now, plan out several different set ups for the fire and X number of steps between phases (keep it constant or change it up, your choice). For maximum puzzle effect, plan a route with the phases that must be figured out on the fly or ahead of time to keep the character safe. For maximum trap effect, roll to determine the next phase.

3) Now, create some clues to hint at the puzzle set up, maybe some heiroglyphs, a riddle or a mural.

4) Make sure the fire does sizable damage, you don't want your PCs to 'just run through' because they have fire resist or something of that effect.

5) Choose one of two paths.
- Create a switch/panel/something at the exit to turn off the trap and so, make sure you have a contingency plan for teleportation.
- No off switch. Teleportation is viable but damn if the entire party can reliably teleport.

6) Remember! It doesn't have to be fire. Crushing blocks, spikes and pitfalls all work just as well (pitfalls do take a disadvantage of providing fliers with safety). Use whatever you like.

Fire Maze - Level 5 - 1000xp:


Place the following mural on a wall near the trap:
x = fire, o = safe, -- = wall
S = start, E = end
--E-- --E-- --E-- --E-- --E--
xxoxx xxxxx xxxxo xxxxo xooxx
xxoxx xooox xxxxo xoxxo xoxxx
xxoxx xoxox xxxxo xoxxo xxxxx
xxoxx xoxox ooxoo xoxxo xxxxx
xxoxx xxxxx oxxxx xoxxo xxoxx
xxoxx xxxxx ooxxx xoxxx xxoxx
--S-- --S-- --S-- --S-- --S--
5> 3> 4> 4> 4-->(cycle)

Room cycles immediately after the # of steps are resolved and is meant to be taken one PC at a time. Cycles are listed in order with the # of steps needed between each listed below them.

Players can jump to count a step.

Attacks:
Fire attacks when it enters your square or you enter a square on fire. If entering multiple squares, each square makes a seperate attack.
Attack: +9 vs Reflex
Hit: 1d10+5 Fire Damage

Skills:
Perception DC 18 to notice holes in all tiles (not just the ones on fire)
Perception DC 20 to notice panel (if included)
Thievery DC 20 to disable a tile. Disabling a tile only stops fire, not the step count.
Thievery DC 25 to disable the panel. Disabling the panel turns off the trap.


The different setups are in order with the numbers between them representing the number of steps required before the set changes over. It's a simple example obviously but it does include a trapped route as well.

kestrel404
2010-05-20, 01:56 PM
Puzzles can be fun, in limited quantity and in contexts that make sense. Encountering a puzzle trap in a temple of Vecna? Perfectly reasonable (He is a god of secrets, after all). Finding a puzzle-based lock in the king's palace guarding the sacred macguffin? Very hard to justify.

I tend to throw out puzzles as optional challenges to the player, to avoid the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PixelHunt problem. Solving the puzzle will either yield up extra loot or else a way to bypass one or more fights prior to a boss fight, or yield a secret passage into a forbidding castle (instead of trying to climb the wall or storm the gate).

As for my favorite puzzles, some examples include:

There is a flooded chamber blocking the path of the PCs. A window in the metal door ahead shows a room full of water and swimming monsters, with a pile of gold in the middle. There are a number of buttons on the door (the numbers from 1 to 100) and the text: "To enter here, you must prime my pump. But my pump primes backwards."
Solution: press the buttons correlating to the prime numbers from 2 to 97, but from highest to lowest. This works for any guarded/unopenable door.

Another door. This one has a slot in the middle at eye level, and is barred from the other side. However, someone has carved into the doorframe the following message: The password is a number, greater than one but less than one hundred, the sum of whose digits is the same as their square. If a PC knocks on the door, a slot opens and a raspy voice asks for the password.
Solution: The PC must say (exactly) "a number, greater than one but less than one hundred, the sum of whose digits is the same as their square". If the PC says 22, the person on the other side of the door activates a pit trap under their feet.

A hallway, a mere 2 feet wide, with a checkerboard floor, grey walls and a well-lit (by torches) ceiling. On the floor in front of the hallway is the inscription, "The light burns, while the darkness conceals danger." Stepping on the white checkerboard squares on the hallway floor causes a small fireburst to shoot down the hallway. Stepping on a black square results in some mechanical trap (bear trap, crossbow bolt, swinging axe blade, etc.)
Solution: Use the walls to bypass the floor. They're grey, so not light or dark and therefore not trapped. The ceiling is brightly lit (light) and results in a rain of fire.

For more ideas, try looking for lateral thinking puzzles.

Lev
2010-05-20, 02:13 PM
The most insidious puzzle is the one that seems obvious to intuition but is actually not as simple (logic puzzle), and only a few people ever get this, most of them have autism:

You see a gem fixed inside of a metal fitting inside a 15x15 cube shaped room, there are 3 doors at the other end of the room, each with a small indentation in the middle of each, there are no handles or knobs or rings or any sort of way to open the door.
You walk into the room and you hear a booming voice from the ceiling saying "Hello brave adventurers."
You look up to see a glowing brass crest of Pelor embedded in the ceiling.

Pelor Crest doesn't respond to anything until you pick up the gem.

Picking up them gem: You see that the metal fitting is round around the gem, and that it has a small shape sticking out of the back roughly the same shape as all of the indentations on the doors.

Pelor Crest then says: "Behind Two of these doors lies certain death for all of you, behind one of the doors lies the path to your glory. Choose wisely."

The players decide on one of the doors and fit the gem into it.

Pelor Crest "Behold the fate of this door, mortals!"
One of the doors glows bright translucent blue and then opens, a wall of force is blocking the door, but you can see a wall of bright molten lava churning behind it.
Pelor Crest "Do you believe you have chosen wisely, I will let you re-pick your choice, if you wish."

At this point, the amazing thing about this puzzle comes into play.

You see, the odds of choosing the right door to start off with are 1/3, but after that the odds change, but not to 50/50 as you'd think, the door other than the one you have currently picked is now 2/3 chance.

This is based on the marilyn vos savant gameshow problem, one of the most deceptive math problems ever created.
http://blog.badmotorfinger.com/uploaded_images/monty_hall-769239.jpg

Math_Mage
2010-05-20, 05:42 PM
The most insidious puzzle is the one that seems obvious to intuition but is actually not as simple (logic puzzle), and only a few people ever get this, most of them have autism:

<snip>

This is based on the marilyn vos savant monty hall gameshow problem, one of the most deceptive math problems ever created.


Just because someone with a high IQ mentions the problem, it doesn't become her problem. And just because it came up in The Curious Incident With the Dog in the Night-Time doesn't mean that it's especially relevant for autism. :smallyuk:

On a side note, make sure to give the problem unambiguously if you want to maintain the math.

DonEsteban
2010-05-20, 06:15 PM
Yes, sir, thank you so much, Mister math_mage for enlightening us all with your wisdom.

Back on topic: I've thought some time about why there are so few believable puzzles without the need of a wizard having done it. One reason for this is that, without powerful magic to prevent this, there are usually faster, easier ways to solve them than solving the actual puzzle. These solutions usually involve either a greataxe or setting something on fire (or both).

Useful examples include all kinds of codes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html).

Lev
2010-05-20, 08:59 PM
Just because someone with a high IQ mentions the problem, it doesn't become her problem. And just because it came up in The Curious Incident With the Dog in the Night-Time doesn't mean that it's especially relevant for autism. :smallyuk:

On a side note, make sure to give the problem unambiguously if you want to maintain the math.

Points noted, but the exercise is to spot the math puzzle is a puzzle in its own, and thats what would require the autism to get (more easily), not the math itself. The puzzle was merited in my post for its deceptiveness, so no I would not like to take the entire puzzle out of its colorful context because that would rob it of it's story after you solve it.
And I am aware it's not her puzzle, but I did leave clues to how I would relate autism to the puzzle, which would be solved if the reader of the post also read the book, so I didn't see a need to be that accurate as I was covered in both instances, technically.

Math_Mage
2010-05-20, 09:48 PM
Meh, I'm sorry. I know a lot of people who enjoy Monty Hall and similar problems, and seeing the 'most people who get this have autism' point got at my blood pressure.

And I wasn't suggesting that you abandon the whole Pelor setup--I think it's neat. Just remember not to do seemingly insignificant things like decide that you'll default to opening Door 2 if it has a goat and isn't chosen, as that actually affects the probabilities.

Starscream
2010-05-20, 10:05 PM
I have a bad tendency to test my players' real world knowledge with my puzzles. As they are typically nerds like me, it works okay.

One I recently did was "Olidammara's Gift". In the temple of Olidammara is a big pile of gold, placed in a trapped room as a joke by the god himself.

The gold sits on a wooden pillar, and the floors of the room are made out of Walls of Force. Beneath them is a pit of wooden spikes.

A sign on the wall explains the challenge. Anyone who casts a spell or uses any sort of magic in the room activates an Anti-Magic Field. This negates the floors, and everyone falls onto the spikes. A Gust of Wind spell pushes downward, preventing mundane flight as well.

If you touch the gold, a big vat of acid above it pours out onto the treasure, and then the anti-magic field activates a few seconds later. For years this treasure has sat in the temple unclaimed because even expert thieves can't figure out a safe way to nab it.

The Solution:Just touch the treasure. Gold does not corrode, so it is effectively acid proof (even the bizarre acid you get in fantasy games that dissolves steel instantly).

The acid pours out onto the gold, does nothing to it, dissolves the pillar and spills out onto the real floor, destroying the spikes and then draining harmlessly from the room.

A couple of seconds later the anti-magic field is activated, and the players also fall to the real floor (just far enough to be humorous; this is Olidammara we're dealing with). They are free to scoop up the treasure and leave.

I like the idea of the God of Rogues being the sort who would simply place a valuable treasure in front of you and say "Go on, take it". It's perfectly safe, but you'd be nuts to trust him, right?
I'd be willing to bet money that you guys could figure out a safe way of grabbing even without knowledge of the real-world factoid that forms the solution, but my players were impressed.

Gralamin
2010-05-20, 10:25 PM
The most insidious puzzle is the one that seems obvious to intuition but is actually not as simple (logic puzzle), and only a few people ever get this, most of them have autism:

*Snip*

You see, the odds of choosing the right door to start off with are 1/3, but after that the odds change, but not to 50/50 as you'd think, the door other than the one you have currently picked is now 2/3 chance.


Actually you lost the 2/3 probability, at least if I'm reading this right (Maybe something got lost in how you stated it).
It seems that the first door you choose is always wrong. By making it so that that door is always wrong, and having the other two being unknown states.

This leaves us with the following choices:
Don't Switch: You lose
Switch, but choose wrong one: You lose
Switch, but choose right one: You win.
Since the initial choice has no effect, since it always results in the same thing, we can remove it from the equation entirely (IE: The one you choose is wrong). This means if you always switch, you have a probability of 1/2 of winning, and 1/2 of losing. Not switching means you lose.
Note this doesn't stay true if the one you picked is not the one opened. The Monte Hall problem relies on the fact that the host always reveals one that you didn't open, and that one is always wrong. Change that and the probabilities change.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-05-20, 11:46 PM
My favorite is the big red button.

The puzzle consists of a room with two doors, and a pedestal with a big red button on it. One door is the door the pcs enter and the other is the way out. Now normally you’d think the button either does something really bad, or simply unlocks the door. But in this case the button doesn’t actually do anything. The other door is open. The pcs (particularly if their metagamy) should stop and try to figure out what will happen when they hit the button. Hopefully they will spend a lot of time debating on what they should do about this big red button they ought to push, but they should be hesitant to push it because they know that doing so might unleash something bad.

The entire point is to make them waste their time while you sit there laughing.


Now if you want a more serious and simple puzzle. You do something similar, but with three rooms, three doors and three buttons. Each button unlocks a different door, so that the pcs will have to try each button and each door to see where they lead. Only one continues on with the dungeon though.

Heh, I did something like this once. I think I actually got the idea from someone on this site. The PCs enter a room. As they enter, a stone door slams shut behind them, spikes come out of the ceiling, and an ominous grinding noise starts. The only other thing in the room is a small end-table with an one-minute hourglass on it. What do you do?

After two real-world hours, they finally gave up trying to get out (having discovered that the hourglass is magically linked to something, and that breaking it will trigger that something) and let it run out. The noise stops, the spikes recede, and the door opens. :smallamused:

Lev
2010-05-21, 02:00 AM
It seems that the first door you choose is always wrong.
Good to know, but why does it seem that way?

Balor01
2010-05-21, 02:01 AM
I just use gunpowder. Or huge blocks of iron falling form the sky. If the thing does not work, more gunpowder and more blocks.

I HATE puzzles. I'll just power attack it.

Gralamin
2010-05-21, 02:25 AM
Good to know, but why does it seem that way?

Well, when dealing with puzzles, I always try to read them as if they were said out loud. Because sometimes people are jerks and hide things in ways that you won't notice unless they are said out loud. Combine this with sometimes Combining words together and thinking they are variable names, and you get slightly different interpretations then normal.



The players decide on one of the doors and fit the gem into it.

Pelor Crest "Behold the fate of this door, mortals!"
One of the doors glows bright translucent blue and then opens, a wall of force is blocking the door, but you can see a wall of bright molten lava churning behind it.
Pelor Crest "Do you believe you have chosen wisely, I will let you re-pick your choice, if you wish."
This repeat of One of the Doors makes it seem like the same one. An easy way around this is "Another of the doors glows bright..."

If you meant that any door could possibly be the one, as long as its incorrect, that leaves us with the following possibilities:
1/3 of the time - Chosen Door open: Switch to win, or switch to lose. 1/6 chance to win so far.
1/3 of the time - Your door is wrong, another wrong one opens: Switch to win.
1/3 of the time - your door is right, another wrong one opens: Switch to lose.
This gives you a 1/3+1/6 = 1/2 half chance of winning if you switch - In other words, as long as your door can open when its wrong, you are going to have a 50% chance to win if you switch.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-21, 04:41 AM
One of the troubles I always have, as a DM, in putting puzzles in a dungeon is that the PCs are often smarter than the players.

All it takes is one wizard or skillmonkey with INT 18 or more.
Most of your players will be dumber than the human maximum (barring age bonuses). If any of their caracters are genii, they can very easily solve complex problems, and the whole puzzle turns into an INT check.

hewhosaysfish
2010-05-21, 07:25 AM
The Solution:Just touch the treasure. Gold does not corrode, so it is effectively acid proof (even the bizarre acid you get in fantasy games that dissolves steel instantly).

The acid pours out onto the gold, does nothing to it, dissolves the pillar and spills out onto the real floor, destroying the spikes and then draining harmlessly from the room.

A couple of seconds later the anti-magic field is activated, and the players also fall to the real floor (just far enough to be humorous; this is Olidammara we're dealing with). They are free to scoop up the treasure and leave.

I like the idea of the God of Rogues being the sort who would simply place a valuable treasure in front of you and say "Go on, take it". It's perfectly safe, but you'd be nuts to trust him, right?


I like the spirit of the puzzle but...

if the "thief" is in a position to touch the gold then wouldn't the acid fall on their head?
I actually knew that acid doesn't dissolve gold but assumed that was the function of the trap: the intruder tries to grab the gold, strong-enough-to-destroy-a-wooden-pillar-in-seconds acid rains down, the intruder dies screaming in agony, the treasure sits there unharmed waiting for the next schmuck to come along.
Perhaps a large, solid-gold umberella?

AvatarZero
2010-05-21, 07:31 AM
There are a few problems with puzzles in RPGs. One is metagaming, and it's already been mentioned in this thread. Player characters are better at swordfighting than players (allowing for fencing students and level 1 non-elf wizards, of course). We don't penalize a player for knowing less than their character when it comes to combat. What happens when a character should be better at solving a puzzle than their player? If you don't roll, then the PCs aren't really involved, it's just the players solving a puzzle.

This issue goes further when it comes to low INT characters and clever players. What happens when the guy playing the half-orc barbarian solves the puzzle? Or in combat, what happens when he comes up with a genius tactic that his character wouldn't have thought of? Are we supposed to tell him to just be quiet, he's not intitled to his idea?

Another issue I want to mention is the way in which puzzles can go wrong based on how the DM describes them. We've probably all had situations where someone has done something silly because there was a miscommunication between them and the DM. Puzzles really exacerbate this sort of thing. I admit, I am mentioning this one because it just happened to me.


If you touch the gold, a big vat of acid above it pours out onto the treasure, and then the anti-magic field activates a few seconds later.

Oh, so first the pillar gets covered in acid, then you get dropped onto the spikes. Sounds like you don't have time to do anything after touching the treasure. I wonder what the solution is...

Oh.

Emmerask
2010-05-21, 08:16 AM
There are a few problems with puzzles in RPGs. One is metagaming, and it's already been mentioned in this thread. Player characters are better at swordfighting than players (allowing for fencing students and level 1 non-elf wizards, of course). We don't penalize a player for knowing less than their character when it comes to combat. What happens when a character should be better at solving a puzzle than their player? If you don't roll, then the PCs aren't really involved, it's just the players solving a puzzle.


Yes puzzles are mostly metagaming, though you could let them roll int for a hint or two after some time.



This issue goes further when it comes to low INT characters and clever players. What happens when the guy playing the half-orc barbarian solves the puzzle? Or in combat, what happens when he comes up with a genius tactic that his character wouldn't have thought of? Are we supposed to tell him to just be quiet, he's not intitled to his idea?


Even not so bright people (in comparison) have good ideas sometimes. Frodo at the moria entrance for example :smallwink:
But you have a point for the int 4 half orc barbarian who solves the puzzles ^^ Then again it is a metagame relief from fighting and roleplaying and best of all you can grab a bite to eat while the players try to solve it :smallbiggrin:



Two of the best riders from Calimshan want to find out who is the best of them. So they ride against each other 3 times but every time they arrive at the finish line at exactly the same time. So this time they decide that the one who´s horse is there last will be the winner.
At first both ride slower and slower until they come to a dead stop and both dismount. They both sit down and wait; one hour passes until suddenly one of the riders jumps up mounts and rides as fast as he can towards the finish line, the other does that too but is too slow and comes too late.
what happened?

valadil
2010-05-21, 09:05 AM
If you meant that any door could possibly be the one, as long as its incorrect, that leaves us with the following possibilities:
1/3 of the time - Chosen Door open: Switch to win, or switch to lose. 1/6 chance to win so far.
1/3 of the time - Your door is wrong, another wrong one opens: Switch to win.
1/3 of the time - your door is right, another wrong one opens: Switch to lose.
This gives you a 1/3+1/6 = 1/2 half chance of winning if you switch - In other words, as long as your door can open when its wrong, you are going to have a 50% chance to win if you switch.

Magenta text for emphasis. That can't happen in the standard Monty Hall problem. It may not have been clearly explained in this thread.

There are 3 doors. One of them contains a prize. Two of them have nothing. You pick a door. Then the host eliminates a losing door. He always gets rid of one of the wrong doors, after you've picked your first door.

Ditto
2010-05-21, 09:38 AM
That's the crux of the confusing math in the Monty Hall problem. If the doors and neutral and open of their own accord, regardless of the prize behind them, then it make sense with the math as presented above.

But if you're being introduced by a host, and the host KNOWS where the prize is and opens a goat door, then you want to switch. Think about it this way: There are 100 doors. You choose door #1. The Host says "Look- door 100 has a goat behind it. Want to switch now?" And so on. What the question boils down to is 'What are the odds you chose the winning door on your first try?" 1 in 100 isn't so great. It's a 99/100 chance that the winning door is NOT the one you chose, so you might as well switch.

As the host opens door 99, and 98, and so on trying to tempt you (but ALWAYS opening a goat door, because he's the host and he knows that the car is behind door 2), he's basically saying You had a 99/100 chance of being wrong with your first choice. You're down to door 1, or you can switch to door 2. Whaddya say? It's the same principle magnified with the 3 door set-up. When you have a host, you want to switch.

valadil
2010-05-21, 09:47 AM
When you have a host, you want to switch.

Or just beat the host senseless until he gives you the car AND the goats.

hewhosaysfish
2010-05-21, 12:00 PM
Two of the best riders from Calimshan want to find out who is the best of them. So they ride against each other 3 times but every time they arrive at the finish line at exactly the same time. So this time they decide that the one who´s horse is there last will be the winner.
At first both ride slower and slower until they come to a dead stop and both dismount. They both sit down and wait; one hour passes until suddenly one of the riders jumps up mounts and rides as fast as he can towards the finish line, the other does that too but is too slow and comes too late.
what happened?



The one dude took the other dude's horse.

Umael
2010-05-21, 02:33 PM
Meta-game knowledge is not as horrible as you guys make it out to be if you allow sharing. Basically, imagine you have a really smart guy playing an elf fighter and a not-as-bright guy playing a wizard. The smart guy looks at the puzzle, says "Apple", and viola! The puzzle is solved. However, what you can do is say that while it was the smart guy OOC who came up with the solution, IC it was the wizard instead.

(Not sure if I explained that well enough to be understood...)

valadil
2010-05-21, 02:46 PM
Meta-game knowledge is not as horrible as you guys make it out to be if you allow sharing. Basically, imagine you have a really smart guy playing an elf fighter and a not-as-bright guy playing a wizard. The smart guy looks at the puzzle, says "Apple", and viola! The puzzle is solved. However, what you can do is say that while it was the smart guy OOC who came up with the solution, IC it was the wizard instead.

(Not sure if I explained that well enough to be understood...)

You did. I'm usually okay with this idea, though some players aren't. Usually they're the ones who play D&D to be competitive.

The other way to handle this situation is to have the fighter's player explain how the fighter came to that conclusion, usually involving something from their background. That works well too.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-21, 03:00 PM
The most insidious puzzle is the one that seems obvious to intuition but is actually not as simple (logic puzzle), and only a few people ever get this, most of them have autism:

*snip*Wait a second. You're putting your players through a puzzle where, if they get everything right, they still have a 1/3 chance of certain death?

Lev
2010-05-21, 04:09 PM
Wait a second. You're putting your players through a puzzle where, if they get everything right, they still have a 1/3 chance of certain death?
What the DM says and what the DM does are not always the same, which is why the actual things behind the doors aren't labeled or marked. The puzzle as I wrote it out was supposed to emphasize the concept of the puzzle, the DM can either do it out beforehand putting danger at random, or it could always be behind the switched door allowing the players to guess right and win.

This allows for further thought from the players, if they assume that lava is behind another one of the doors they will either prepare for more lava in some brilliant way or rig up a system assuming the door is magically automated, which allows the DM to either let it slide at random for creative players wanting adrenaline, or let it slide only when theres a good chance of their plan working.

Either way, all of the variables are up to the DM and the puzzle is just a puzzle.

tbarrie
2010-05-21, 06:02 PM
The players decide on one of the doors and fit the gem into it.

Pelor Crest "Behold the fate of this door, mortals!"
One of the doors glows bright translucent blue and then opens, a wall of force is blocking the door, but you can see a wall of bright molten lava churning behind it.
Pelor Crest "Do you believe you have chosen wisely, I will let you re-pick your choice, if you wish."

At this point, the amazing thing about this puzzle comes into play.

You see, the odds of choosing the right door to start off with are 1/3, but after that the odds change, but not to 50/50 as you'd think, the door other than the one you have currently picked is now 2/3 chance.

This is only true if you make certain assumptions about how the puzzle operates. The most typical set of assumptions (made implicit by the set of pictures you included) are:

1) That the a door is always revealed
2) That the door you pick is never the one revealed.
3) That the correct door is never the one revealed.

The problem is, these assumptions are almost never explicitly stated as part of the problem, even though the allegedly correct solution depends on them (or similar ones). In specific, the preamble you posted gives your players no reason to think that this is how the room operates, so from there point of view there really is no advantage to switching.


As the host opens door 99, and 98, and so on trying to tempt you (but ALWAYS opening a goat door, because he's the host and he knows that the car is behind door 2), he's basically saying You had a 99/100 chance of being wrong with your first choice. You're down to door 1, or you can switch to door 2. Whaddya say? It's the same principle magnified with the 3 door set-up. When you have a host, you want to switch.

But here's the thing: as you said, the host knows which door is right. So what if the sneaky bastard only gives this generous offer to the 1-in-100 player who actually got it right the first time? If that's the case, switching doesn't increase your chances, it destroys them.

Now, if you've seen the host play this game with a few other people, and every time he opened 98 doors, none of which were the good door or the door originally chosen, then yeah, switching is probably the safe bet. But if you don't have any information about how the host operates, then the host's door opening tells you nothing beyond what's behind the specific doors he opens. In that case, feel free to switch or not; it's a fifty-fifty bet either way.

Ditto
2010-05-21, 06:21 PM
But here's the thing: as you said, the host knows which door is right. So what if the sneaky bastard only gives this generous offer to the 1-in-100 player who actually got it right the first time? If that's the case, switching doesn't increase your chances, it destroys them.
That's not how probability works. If you choose 1-in-100, you had a 1-in-100 chance of being right. Sometimes you win right away, and switching makes you lose - but that's mathematically unlikely. Even if the host wasn't screwing with me, I'd still switch doors JUST IN CASE this was NOT the very unlikely instance where I happened to choose the correct door from the get-go.


Now, if you've seen the host play this game with a few other people, and every time he opened 98 doors, none of which were the good door or the door originally chosen, then yeah, switching is probably the safe bet. But if you don't have any information about how the host operates, then the host's door opening tells you nothing beyond what's behind the specific doors he opens. In that case, feel free to switch or not; it's a fifty-fifty bet either way.
Again, to address the converse of the point above, the host's behavior AFTER I've chosen my initial door does nothing to change the fact that when I chose, my odds were 1 in 100. You're always playing against 'What are the odds that I chose correctly on my first try?'. Those odds are pretty good, so you should switch. If math depended on how the host operated, then who cares? They were probably all goats.

Froogleyboy
2010-05-21, 07:11 PM
I like the spirit of the puzzle but...

if the "thief" is in a position to touch the gold then wouldn't the acid fall on their head?
I actually knew that acid doesn't dissolve gold but assumed that was the function of the trap: the intruder tries to grab the gold, strong-enough-to-destroy-a-wooden-pillar-in-seconds acid rains down, the intruder dies screaming in agony, the treasure sits there unharmed waiting for the next schmuck to come along.
Perhaps a large, solid-gold umberella?


I thought this as well, but one could simply throw something at the gold

Lord Vampyre
2010-05-21, 07:21 PM
Actually you lost the 2/3 probability, at least if I'm reading this right (Maybe something got lost in how you stated it).
It seems that the first door you choose is always wrong. By making it so that that door is always wrong, and having the other two being unknown states.

I believe the point is that your shown a door you did not pick that happens to be wrong. Either way the odds are still 1 in 3 the first time you pick. Then you still have the option of picking another door afterwards, where the odds are 50/50. You're right that the first choice doesn't really matter, since you will always be shown a door that was a wrong choice. At this point your odds really are 50/50.

It goes back to the principle that the odds of the first choice don't affect the odds of the second choice. Unless, you really are showing them the door they chose in the first place be it right or wrong. Then your overall odds are 2/3. Where the probability = 1/3 + 1/2 - 1/n! . Where n! refers to n factorial or 2x3.


My personal opinion on puzzles is that they shouldn't take too much time, and if the party fails the test they are mildly inconvienced rather than out right destroyed. This allows for the big dumb fighter to bash his way through it if necessary.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-21, 08:08 PM
I believe the point is that your shown a door you did not pick that happens to be wrong. Either way the odds are still 1 in 3 the first time you pick. Then you still have the option of picking another door afterwards, where the odds are 50/50. You're right that the first choice doesn't really matter, since you will always be shown a door that was a wrong choice. At this point your odds really are 50/50.

Except that they're not. If one of the incorrect doors is opened, and you are then given a choice to switch, then it works like this:

Choice 1) Assume you pick the correct door. One of the incorrect doors is shown, and you decide to switch. You lose.
Choice 2) Assume you pick an incorrect door. The other incorrect door is opened, and you decide to switch. You win.

Since A) An incorrect door on your first pick means switching makes you win, and B) you have a 2/3 chance of picking an incorrect door on your first go, you have a 2/3 chance of winning if you switch.

tbarrie
2010-05-21, 11:20 PM
If you choose 1-in-100, you had a 1-in-100 chance of being right.

The key word being "had". You're absolutely right that, based on the information you had at the start of the exercise, your probability of being right with your initial guess was 0.01. But now the host has opened some doors, and the important question is what the probabilities are given the information you have now. And as soon as you try to calculate that, you realize that you first need some information about how the host will react based on what door you chose.


Again, to address the converse of the point above, the host's behavior AFTER I've chosen my initial door does nothing to change the fact that when I chose, my odds were 1 in 100.

That knife cuts both ways; you could equally well say that the host's behaviour doesn't change the fact that door 2 had only a 1 in 100 chance of being correct. In fact, the common-sensical notion that the host's door opening can't effect the probability is most people's initial response to the puzzle, justifying the intuitive but wrong answer that it can't possibly matter whether you switch. I'm a little puzzled how you're seeing it as an argument for always switching; the whole argument in favour of switching hinges on the fact that the host's behaviour does change things. What the traditional answer misses is that different behaviours change it in different ways, so for the puzzle to be soluble you need to state in advance how he's playing the game.


If math depended on how the host operated, then who cares? They were probably all goats.

Honestly, how does that even make sense? Of course the math depends on how the host operates; how could it not? You're undercutting your own argument; you correctly pointed out earlier that one of the necessary conditions for switching to be beneficial is that the host knows which door is the desirable one, but if how the host operates doesn't matter, what possible difference could it make what he knows or doesn't know?

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-22, 12:10 AM
Wait a second. You're putting your players through a puzzle where, if they get everything right, they still have a 1/3 chance of certain death?

Sounds like D&D to me. Praise Gygax!

Really though, that's a problem. There needs to be some way for the players to solve the puzzle, not just reduce their chances of horrible flaming death. Knowing that horrible flaming death might await them, though, they are likely to prepare, so there's that.

Divination spells kind of make the whole thing a moot point.

On the Monty Haul problem: Really? This discussion has been hashed out a million times. It's bordering on thread derailment.

obnoxious
sig

Heatwizard
2010-05-22, 04:18 AM
Except that they're not. If one of the incorrect doors is opened, and you are then given a choice to switch, then it works like this:

Choice 1) Assume you pick the correct door. One of the incorrect doors is shown, and you decide to switch. You lose.
Choice 2) Assume you pick an incorrect door. The other incorrect door is opened, and you decide to switch. You win.

Since A) An incorrect door on your first pick means switching makes you win, and B) you have a 2/3 chance of picking an incorrect door on your first go, you have a 2/3 chance of winning if you switch.

But the beginning is completely irrelevant. A wrong door is always dropped, every time, no matter what. There are now two doors, one is right, and one is wrong. And then they let you pick again. It's 50/50.

Lev
2010-05-22, 04:25 AM
But the beginning is completely irrelevant. A wrong door is always dropped, every time, no matter what. There are now two doors, one is right, and one is wrong. And then they let you pick again. It's 50/50.
The entire comment was about it not being 50/50, it's 33/66 where as the 66 is choose other door and the 33 is stay.


PERSONALLY regardless of how you critique whatever flaws you believe my puzzle has, it's still more meaningful and colorful than "you hear a mechanical noise coming from inside the wall as you walk forward, roll a reflex save. You failed. Roll a fort save vs. poison. You failed."

Emmerask
2010-05-22, 04:43 AM
I had to program this problem in turbo pascal a loooong time ago at school ^^

~1/3 (or 33%.3...%)chance to win if you don´t repick
~1/2 (or 50%) chance to win if you repick

after 10.000 tries :smallwink:

DwarvenExodus
2010-05-22, 08:54 AM
So do I, but, amazingly, this does not seem to hold for the majority of roleplayers. One kind of puzzle our DM had for us was to outline a rune with your finger (or pencil) in one go, touching every edge exactly once. -- And BOOM! if you make a mistake.

Like this one:
http://www.markkeen.com/knight/images/knight5.jpg

Hang on- That one's impossible!

Dingle
2010-05-22, 09:40 AM
Hang on- That one's impossible!

it is impossible, it contains more than two junctions with an odd number of lines.

I'm planning on putting the evil wizard's spare keys behind a puzzle and his mother's maiden name.

Math_Mage
2010-05-22, 01:11 PM
But the beginning is completely irrelevant. A wrong door is always dropped, every time, no matter what. There are now two doors, one is right, and one is wrong. And then they let you pick again. It's 50/50.

Please work out the math before dismissing the beginning of the problem. There are two doors left, yes, but given the previous choice from three and the host's behavior in always revealing a wrong door you didn't choose, the odds that you're on the wrong door are 2/3. Let's assume without loss of generality that the car is behind door #1. There are three possible events, each with an equal probability of happening:
1. You choose Door #1, the announcer chooses door #2 or #3, and you lose if you switch.
2. You choose Door #2, the announcer chooses door #3, and you win if you switch.
3. You choose Door #3, the announcer chooses door #2, and you win if you switch.

The final choice is not independent of previous events, which is why the probability is not 1 in 2.

An astute observer might complain that I have actually outlined four scenarios here, because I combined two scenarios in choice 1 (the announcer's two door choices). But the probability of each of those two scenarios is only 1/6, so combining them makes it 1/3, which leads to equal probability. They won't always be combined; see below.


Honestly, how does that even make sense? Of course the math depends on how the host operates; how could it not?

Yep. For example, if the host's behavior is to randomly pick one of the doors you didn't pick whether or not it contains a car, then your chances go back down to 50/50.

There are six possible scenarios of equal probability:
1. You choose Door #1, the announcer chooses Door #2, and you lose if you switch.
2. You choose Door #1, the announcer chooses Door #3, and you lose if you switch.
3. You choose Door #2, the announcer chooses Door #1
4. You choose Door #2, the announcer chooses Door #3, and you win if you switch.
5. You choose Door #3, the announcer chooses Door #1
6. You choose Door #3, the announcer chooses Door #2, and you win if you switch.

Each of the scenarios has a 1/6 chance of happening. Now, the game's the same, and if you go only by the rules only (you pick a door, host picks another door, you can switch to another door if you want to), you'll still win 2/3 of the time. A third of the time the host will open the door that contains the car, so you switch to it and win. A third of the time, you and the host pick the two wrong doors, and switching to the third one wins. A third of the time, you'll pick the right door, and switching loses no matter which door the host picks.

BUT....We are dealing with the specific scenario where the door the host opens is the wrong door. That means we cross off scenarios #3 and #5, as above. Of the remaining four possibilities, each with equal probability, only two win you the car by switching. So your chances are 50% again once the host opens the wrong door. The key difference is that if you choose a wrong door the first time, the host has only a 50% chance of choosing the other wrong door, making that individual event more unlikely than in the initial case.


The entire comment was about it not being 50/50, it's 33/66 where as the 66 is choose other door and the 33 is stay.


PERSONALLY regardless of how you critique whatever flaws you believe my puzzle has, it's still more meaningful and colorful than "you hear a mechanical noise coming from inside the wall as you walk forward, roll a reflex save. You failed. Roll a fort save vs. poison. You failed."

Er...nobody claimed it isn't? :smallconfused:

Private-Prinny
2010-05-22, 05:14 PM
Yep. For example, if the host's behavior is to randomly pick one of the doors you didn't pick whether or not it contains a car, then your chances go back down to 50/50.

There are six possible scenarios of equal probability:
1. You choose Door #1, the announcer chooses Door #2, and you lose if you switch.
2. You choose Door #1, the announcer chooses Door #3, and you lose if you switch.
3. You choose Door #2, the announcer chooses Door #1
4. You choose Door #2, the announcer chooses Door #3, and you win if you switch.
5. You choose Door #3, the announcer chooses Door #1
6. You choose Door #3, the announcer chooses Door #2, and you win if you switch.

Each of the scenarios has a 1/6 chance of happening. Now, the game's the same, and if you go only by the rules only (you pick a door, host picks another door, you can switch to another door if you want to), you'll still win 2/3 of the time. A third of the time the host will open the door that contains the car, so you switch to it and win. A third of the time, you and the host pick the two wrong doors, and switching to the third one wins. A third of the time, you'll pick the right door, and switching loses no matter which door the host picks.

BUT....We are dealing with the specific scenario where the door the host opens is the wrong door. That means we cross off scenarios #3 and #5, as above. Of the remaining four possibilities, each with equal probability, only two win you the car by switching. So your chances are 50% again once the host opens the wrong door. The key difference is that if you choose a wrong door the first time, the host has only a 50% chance of choosing the other wrong door, making that individual event more unlikely than in the initial case.

Hmm... This seems off to me. You still lose if you pick Door 1, and win if you pick Door 2 or 3, so you should have a 2/3 chance of picking the right door to switch out of.

Math_Mage
2010-05-22, 09:19 PM
Hmm... This seems off to me. You still lose if you pick Door 1, and win if you pick Door 2 or 3, so you should have a 2/3 chance of picking the right door to switch out of.

But the relevant events are not "pick door 1", "pick door 2", and "pick door 3". The relevant events are "pick door 1", "pick door 2 AND have the host pick door 3", and "pick door 3 AND have the host pick door 2". We can no longer consider the entire probability space, because we must exclude the 1/3 of the time that the host picks door #1. After all, there's no car behind the door he picked.

A similar problem has two cards in one bag, one of which is red on both sides, and one of which is red on one side and black on the other. You draw a card, and see that one side is red. Which card is it? Well, the naive answer is that since there are two cards, the odds that you have one card are the same as having the other, so it's 50/50. But we cannot consider the entire probability space: we must exclude the possibility of drawing the red-and-black card and seeing the black side. So the odds are 2/3 that you have the red-and-red card, and only 1/3 that you have the red-and-black card. Another way to think of it is that you have four card sides, three red and one black. Two of the red sides belong to the red-and-red card, and only one to the red-and-black card, so your probabilities are 2/3 and 1/3, respectively.

Similarly, in the Ignorant Monty problem, we must exclude the possibility of choosing the wrong door and seeing the host pick the right door, which changes the probability space. Like I said, if you play the game many times the host will pick the right door 1/3 of the time, resulting in a 2/3 win percentage for you. But if the host picks the wrong door, your chances of winning by switching are only 50/50.

Another way to see this is to frame the problem a different way. Say we always pick Door #1. We're playing with the ignorant host, and he picks Door #2. Now, there are three possibilities:
1) The car is behind Door #1, and you lose by switching.
2) The car is behind Door #2, and the host reveals it.
3) The car is behind Door #3, and you win by switching.

Notice that this is markedly different from the original problem, where if the car were behind Door #2, the host would pick Door #3. In the original problem, you were assured a win if the car was behind Door #2; in this case, you can only eliminate the possibility that the car is behind Door #2. That is why the resulting chances of winning are different.

Jolly Steve
2010-05-22, 10:27 PM
Another door. This one has a slot in the middle at eye level, and is barred from the other side. However, someone has carved into the doorframe the following message: The password is a number, greater than one but less than one hundred, the sum of whose digits is the same as their square. If a PC knocks on the door, a slot opens and a raspy voice asks for the password.
Solution: The PC must say (exactly) "a number, greater than one but less than one hundred, the sum of whose digits is the same as their square". If the PC says 22, the person on the other side of the door activates a pit trap under their feet.

That's not right
unless there are inverted commas or quotes, thus:

The password is 'a number, greater than one but less than one hundred, the sum of whose digits is the same as their square.'

Jolly Steve
2010-05-22, 10:34 PM
The answer to this puzzle depends on how the voice/host decides which door to reveal.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem


This is based on the marilyn vos savant gameshow problem, one of the most deceptive math problems ever created.

PS dungeons which gave too many rewards used to be called 'Monty Haul dungeons' (different spelling, but named after the same guy).

Flickerdart
2010-05-22, 11:07 PM
I have a bad tendency to test my players' real world knowledge with my puzzles. As they are typically nerds like me, it works okay.

One I recently did was "Olidammara's Gift". In the temple of Olidammara is a big pile of gold, placed in a trapped room as a joke by the god himself.

The gold sits on a wooden pillar, and the floors of the room are made out of Walls of Force. Beneath them is a pit of wooden spikes.

A sign on the wall explains the challenge. Anyone who casts a spell or uses any sort of magic in the room activates an Anti-Magic Field. This negates the floors, and everyone falls onto the spikes. A Gust of Wind spell pushes downward, preventing mundane flight as well.

If you touch the gold, a big vat of acid above it pours out onto the treasure, and then the anti-magic field activates a few seconds later. For years this treasure has sat in the temple unclaimed because even expert thieves can't figure out a safe way to nab it.

The Solution:Just touch the treasure. Gold does not corrode, so it is effectively acid proof (even the bizarre acid you get in fantasy games that dissolves steel instantly).

The acid pours out onto the gold, does nothing to it, dissolves the pillar and spills out onto the real floor, destroying the spikes and then draining harmlessly from the room.

A couple of seconds later the anti-magic field is activated, and the players also fall to the real floor (just far enough to be humorous; this is Olidammara we're dealing with). They are free to scoop up the treasure and leave.

I like the idea of the God of Rogues being the sort who would simply place a valuable treasure in front of you and say "Go on, take it". It's perfectly safe, but you'd be nuts to trust him, right?
I'd be willing to bet money that you guys could figure out a safe way of grabbing even without knowledge of the real-world factoid that forms the solution, but my players were impressed.

Obviously you must use a 10-ft pole mounted saw to remove the pillar and drag it out of the room without ever touching the gold itself.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-23, 12:00 AM
Another way to see this is to frame the problem a different way. Say we always pick Door #1. We're playing with the ignorant host, and he picks Door #2. Now, there are three possibilities:
1) The car is behind Door #1, and you lose by switching.
2) The car is behind Door #2, and the host reveals it.
3) The car is behind Door #3, and you win by switching.

Notice that this is markedly different from the original problem, where if the car were behind Door #2, the host would pick Door #3. In the original problem, you were assured a win if the car was behind Door #2; in this case, you can only eliminate the possibility that the car is behind Door #2. That is why the resulting chances of winning are different.

We must be operating under different assumptions, because, under those circumstances, your odds of winning are still 2/3. I am operating under the assumption that you can change your choice of door to any one you want, but common sense would dictate that you don't want to make yourself lose.

Ergo:
1) If the car is behind Door #1, you switch and lose.
2) If the car is behind Door #2, you pick it and win.
3) If the car is behind Door #3, you avoid picking #2, switch to #3, and win.

2/3 chance to win.
A similar problem has two cards in one bag, one of which is red on both sides, and one of which is red on one side and black on the other. You draw a card, and see that one side is red. Which card is it? Well, the naive answer is that since there are two cards, the odds that you have one card are the same as having the other, so it's 50/50. But we cannot consider the entire probability space: we must exclude the possibility of drawing the red-and-black card and seeing the black side. So the odds are 2/3 that you have the red-and-red card, and only 1/3 that you have the red-and-black card. Another way to think of it is that you have four card sides, three red and one black. Two of the red sides belong to the red-and-red card, and only one to the red-and-black card, so your probabilities are 2/3 and 1/3, respectively.

As for this, it is explained rather nicely here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Liar_Game/24/07/)

Lev
2010-05-23, 12:21 AM
How about a nice simple 3 color puzzle instead?

The players come in from the south into a 25x15 (lengthwise going W/E), there are open archways that seem to lead into lit rooms to the west, south and east.

On the north wall there are 3 doors, 2 of them have glowing orbs in them.

In front of the non-orbed door is a crumpled figure dressed in dirt colored clothing.

A DC 22 spot check will reveal little reflective dots on the ground in places as you walk, once spotted a DC 15 search check will reveal tiny bits of gem all over the room.

Closer inspection of the figure reveals a skeleton with shards of a glass-like substance embedded in the front of him (like shrapnel), searching him will reveal 10-150gp worth of intact gear and 10-100gp worth of wrecked or degraded gear due to exposure (exact cost find is determined by the DM). Along with the items is a ready-sash with 3 orbs in it, one of them is blue, one of them is pink, one of them is turquoise and one of them is blue.
A DC15-20 will reveal that the color of the shards in the skeleton are purple.

Further inspection of the doors will reveal:
One door is Green and has a Red orb in it.
One door is Purple with a Yellow orb in it.
One door is Orange, and does not contain an orb.

Any orb but blue put into the Orange door will result in that orb exploding and dealing a cone of physical damage, and damage set to the DM's discretion.

The other orbs on the other doors are removable, but if any orb is placed in an incorrect slot it explodes.

Once the blue gem is in the orange door the gems glow brightly and cast Daylight before they disappear, all the orbs are now gone, and with them the doors.

----

The doors have a hardness of 10 and have damage reduction of 10/magic, they have no hinges or locks so there is no way to perform lock pick or disable device, but can be broken down by a DC32 STR check.


We must be operating under different assumptions, because, under those circumstances, your odds of winning are still 2/3. I am operating under the assumption that you can change your choice of door to any one you want, but common sense would dictate that you don't want to make yourself lose.

Ergo:
1) If the car is behind Door #1, you switch and lose.
2) If the car is behind Door #2, you pick it and win.
3) If the car is behind Door #3, you avoid picking #2, switch to #3, and win.

2/3 chance to win.
You got it! If you guys still don't think it will make sense to your players then change the wording to fit the puzzle better! I was just shooting for thiiiis ^^^ logic!

Dr Bwaa
2010-05-23, 12:49 AM
One of my favorite puzzles I've had a hand in was created by my best friend and I in a frenzy of dungeon-building.

You enter a 10x10x20 room. In the center is a small pedestal with a multicolored cube on it; each side is brightly colored with one of Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, and Violet. The cube can be lifted and moved around, but it cannot be rotated on any axis. On the far side of the room, there is a ladder leading to a trapdoor in the ceiling. A very good search check (level-appropriate--very tough to spot) reveals the presence of a secret door on the left wall, but no means of opening it, as it appears to be just a solid rock slab.

The trapdoor is neither locked, nor trapped (unless you want it to be I guess). Through the trapdoor you find yourself in the center of a very large, cubical room, with sides corresponding to the colors (and orientation) of the small cube. Gravity immediately feels (and it is) about twice as powerful here. Arrayed around the room are tall iron walls with horizontal channels cut into them every five feet high, and open-topped barrels of widely varying heights (2.5 feet, 7.5 feet, 12.5, etc). The room's walls and ceiling also are covered in these barrelsand iron walls, in a bizarre arrangement. The barrels and walls are all extremely sturdy (enough that breaking them should not really be an option).

Inspection of the room will reveal four objects of note. Two of the barrels (on the floor or walls; whatever) (2.5' tall) appear to be made out of dessicated flesh. Two more barrels (on the floor) are filled with a bright, sticky substance that smells like blood. It is boiling, immune to magical movement, and highly caustic (the only materials it will not damage are the barrels, the walls, and the floors (unless the PCs find a way to magically enhance their gear somehow)). The blood radiates strong Abj, Trans, and moderate Conj auras. The barrels radiate strong Abjuration.

Deliberately pressing on one side of the small cube causes gravity in the room to instantaneously draw everything (party included) towards that side (that is, it makes that side the "bottom"). Blood will immediately pour out of whatever barrels it is in, towards the new floor. If it hits an iron wall, it slides "down/across" it through the groove (in the obvious way). If it lands in a barrel, it stays there. If it hits a party member, it does a level-appropriate amount of fire/acid damage, then is absorbed by the floor. Otherwise, it is simply absorbed into the floor and does not reappear until the room is reset*.

An interesting effect is obtained if the cube is placed into a nondimensional or extradimensional space--the gravity in the room turns off completely. This still does not allow the blood to be manipulated.

If the blood lands in a skin barrel, the skin will quickly become healthy and scab over, containing the blood inside. When both skin barrels are scabbed over, the secret door in the previous room grinds open.

*The room may be "reset" by touching the sides of the cube in order (ROYGBV). The sides light up as they are touched in this order (and stay lit until they all are touched, or until the sequence is interrupted). This causes blood anywhere but a scabbed barrel to return to its starting point, and gravity to orient to the original direction.

Solution:
The premise is easy; the execution is hard. If you (DM) are like me and you have the whole room actually drawn out, the PCs may have a ridiculous time trying to figure out the plan as they map out the room and try to figure the logistics. I recommend leaving a clue to the correct pattern somewhere else in the dungeon (my friend and I used this puzzle to ensure that the "end boss" was indeed not reached until the end). Or if your friends are masochistic, they can just go for it.

A convenient measure they may take is to stay in the first room and just Scry or Clairvoyance the blood room, so the party isn't in danger of falling damage and acid blood damage.

Math_Mage
2010-05-23, 02:12 AM
We must be operating under different assumptions, because, under those circumstances, your odds of winning are still 2/3. I am operating under the assumption that you can change your choice of door to any one you want, but common sense would dictate that you don't want to make yourself lose.

Ergo:
1) If the car is behind Door #1, you switch and lose.
2) If the car is behind Door #2, you pick it and win.
3) If the car is behind Door #3, you avoid picking #2, switch to #3, and win.

2/3 chance to win.

I have acknowledged that multiple times previously. However, the premise of the analysis was that you had already been shown a wrong door. The fact that the host is now picking at random, and could have picked a right door, doesn't change that. There's nothing interesting about the scenario where the host shows you where the car is, so we cut it out. If you like, the host restarts the game each time he picks the car by accident. That cements the probability change, in addition to making this problem more like the card game.

DonEsteban
2010-05-23, 12:11 PM
Hang on- That one's impossible!

Haha, you passed the test ;) No, seriously, I just linked the wrong one and forgot to verify. These ones work:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:3El-bUM73aQ9uM:http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~skiena/combinatorica/animations/anim/euler.gif http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:X-q1TaIDL7NmFM:http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9656/e3425f5e4305e79658d10f6.jpg


How about another classic:

You come to a room with another exit that is barred by nine bolts. There are nine poles (equally long and immovable) in the room and on top of each pole is a magical gem. There's a ray of light coming out of the wall at the same height as the gems. Originally, the ray doesn't touch any gem, but when it touches a gem, this unlocks one of the bolts. You can find out by experimentation that every gem corresponds to exactly one bolt. The layout of the poles is like this:


___________________
| |
| |
| x x x |
| |
| x x x |
| |
| x x x |
| |
|_________________|



There are four mirrors which you can position at will in the room and which reflect the ray. You may or may not allow other, normal mirrors to reflect the ray. How do you unlock the door?


For motivation, there's of course always the possibility of using prisoners/hat puzzles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hat_Puzzle). The heroes have been captured/are threatened by a powerful king/sphinx/dragon/evil ninja kitten, who graciously allows them to live if they solve the puzzle.

For a variety of prisoner puzzles, see the books by Peter Winkler (http://www.maa.org/reviews/puzzlesconnoisseur.html). Something for the logically inclined (aka autistic) only, though.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-23, 12:20 PM
I have acknowledged that multiple times previously. However, the premise of the analysis was that you had already been shown a wrong door. The fact that the host is now picking at random, and could have picked a right door, doesn't change that. There's nothing interesting about the scenario where the host shows you where the car is, so we cut it out. If you like, the host restarts the game each time he picks the car by accident. That cements the probability change, in addition to making this problem more like the card game.

That makes a lot more sense.

AvatarZero
2010-05-23, 12:57 PM
I have two more things for this thread; a slightly eccentric way to handle puzzles in game, and a puzzle encounter I particularly liked from the Book of Challenges.

A friend of one of my lecturers runs lots of mystery/detective games, and he's used to situations where the players get stuck. Since they always resent being offered help by the DM, he gives them post-it notes with clues on them at the start of each setting. Since he doesn't want them to use them straight away, he hides them in old phonebooks. It takes about five minutes of determined searching to find one of them, and since they're written on post-its they can't be shaken out of the book. It's a safety measure; so long as he has one of those on the table, the game will never be more boring than searching an entire phone book for a post-it note. :smallsmile:

page 104, Book of Challenges

In an out of the way corner of the dungeon you find a copper dragon. If you can answer it's riddles correctly, it will give you a magic item to help you on your way. If not, you have to give up one of yours instead!

First riddle: I make most plants green and many people brown. What am I?

The sun!
Got it right? Have a potion of swimming!

Second riddle: Pulled by a night pearl, I bow politely and slowly straighten up twice a day. What am I?

The ocean!
This one wins you a wand of Detect Secret Doors.

Third riddle: I love the tearing of sweet flesh, and I'm voraciously hungry. What am I?

About to kill you all!
Turns out it was a black dragon using Disguise Self. :smallsmile:

flabort
2010-05-23, 02:02 PM
Nice. Is the Book of chalenges still in print?

Here's one for you:
Writen on the door to a room is the "random" letters "qclry b eqrv". if the party is smart, they may try to decode it. but, it's dificult.
in the room, there are no doors, except the one they came through. there is a strong arua of transmutation coming from all the walls, which are also coated in oil. searching will not reveal any hidden doors, but a piece of paper found earlier with a PARTIAL map of the dungeon shows there are one on each door, including the one they came through. so, four doors displayed. since the room thier seeking is displayed as past this room, with no other route there, they must solve this.
In the middle of the room are four cans of paint, and a paintbrush. all of them have a weak transmutation arua.

Also, on the floor are two painted arrows, obviously painted hastily. pointing to one wall, a red arrow has the letters on it "qqvmtt hcu", and pointing to another wall a green arrow has the text scratched out of it "gkui" there are no arrows pointing to the others.

The solution:

it's in the encoded letters on the door: "Paint a door". on a succesfull DC 11 craft (painting) check, the painted door will glow brightly and be replaced by a real door, that looks just like the one painted. the red arrow reads "poison gas", which will come out of the door, dealing 1d2 Dex damage (or level apropriat) each round. the green arrow reads "Fire", and if a door is made on that wall, fire dealing 2d6 fire damage (or level apropriat) per round races through the room. the other wall, with no arrow pointing at it, is were they want to paint a door.

If your curious on how to encode and decode the text, to use it elsewere:
Encode:
label each letter in each word in accending order with a number:

1234 123 123
Kill the ape

shift each letter that many units over to the right in the alphebet:

1234 123 123
Kill the ape
Lkop ujh brh

remove the labels and origional letters.

Decode:
label each letter in each word in accending order with a number (as encode):

1234567
Igaelvrv

Shift each letter the labeled amount to the LEFT in the alphebet:

1234566
Igaelvrv
Hexagon

Revove the labels.

note:
Myself, I go over each letter mentally, figuring out were it would go. the labels just make things easier. although, the ereaser marks make things easier for unwanted eyes, too.

Also, most people try shifting everything one letter left to decode something, thinking it's a childish code like that. when thier told the first letter is correct, but none of the others, it takes them a long while to figure out after that. they never seem to try shifting the rest again.

Jolly Steve
2010-05-23, 02:49 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:X-q1TaIDL7NmFM:http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9656/e3425f5e4305e79658d10f6.jpg

That one doesn't. :smallsmile:

Ashram
2010-05-23, 03:10 PM
Best puzzle I've ever heard was one a friend had to go through: It was a door puzzle on a massive vault door that had several different crazy locking mechanisms that required each of the party members to contribute some help (A rogue would have to unlock a part, while the fighter may have to use his weapon as a key, and so on.) It was meant to be a fun little interactive puzzle...

Until the wizard of the group found out the door was non-magical and simply cast Knock on it. Everyone else laughed their butt off, even the DM. And it worked.

Lev
2010-05-23, 03:57 PM
Best puzzle I've ever heard was one a friend had to go through: It was a door puzzle on a massive vault door that had several different crazy locking mechanisms that required each of the party members to contribute some help (A rogue would have to unlock a part, while the fighter may have to use his weapon as a key, and so on.) It was meant to be a fun little interactive puzzle...

Until the wizard of the group found out the door was non-magical and simply cast Knock on it. Everyone else laughed their butt off, even the DM. And it worked.
He was using a keyblade?

AvatarZero
2010-05-23, 04:42 PM
Nice. Is the Book of chalenges still in print?

Are any third edition books still in print? I thought that Wizards dropped the line and demanded that third party publishers do the same when fourth edition came out? Wasn't there something about them not allowing the same company to publish for 3rd edition and 4th edition? Or am I pulling that out of thin air?

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-23, 04:48 PM
Are any third edition books still in print? I thought that Wizards dropped the line and demanded that third party publishers do the same when fourth edition came out? Wasn't there something about them not allowing the same company to publish for 3rd edition and 4th edition? Or am I pulling that out of thin air?

I think I've read about the "no printing/selling third and fourth edition" thing but I'm fairly sure third was still a permitted choice, if an unpopular one. As always I could be wrong.

flabort
2010-05-23, 06:14 PM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:3El-bUM73aQ9uM:http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~skiena/combinatorica/animations/anim/euler.gif http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:X-q1TaIDL7NmFM:http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9656/e3425f5e4305e79658d10f6.jpg

any one of these with more than two intersections with an odd number of lines on it is imposible. That makes the smaller one completely imposible (4 intersections with 5 lines each).

goken04
2010-05-24, 04:16 PM
Best puzzle I've ever heard was one a friend had to go through: It was a door puzzle on a massive vault door that had several different crazy locking mechanisms that required each of the party members to contribute some help (A rogue would have to unlock a part, while the fighter may have to use his weapon as a key, and so on.) It was meant to be a fun little interactive puzzle...

Until the wizard of the group found out the door was non-magical and simply cast Knock on it. Everyone else laughed their butt off, even the DM. And it worked.

Similarly, I recently had a dungeon whose first door was locked and keyed to a riddle one had to solve to open. Unfortunately, I forgot a member of the party had a short range teleport that allowed him to teleport to the other side of the door and simply open it from the other side!

EccentricOwl
2010-05-26, 03:38 PM
The general consensus seems to be that puzzles that involve -characters- and not just players are the best.

EccentricOwl
2010-05-26, 04:13 PM
Suggested Puzzle Listing



By the way, good gods! These are some truly epic puzzles - all of which make for a great break from fighting or roleplaying.

Admittedly, not all of them work in every setting. Not all of them involve the players, and not all of them involve the characters. But damn it if they aren't all interesting.

To be honest, I generally just call puzzles "break time for the GM" as unless the players have a lot of questions and things to roll for, I can go take a quick break while they discuss options.

1. "Two Switch" Puzzle- Altair
2. Light & Mirrors - originally from Penny Arcade
3. Shifting Stone Walls - Irreverent Fool
4. Tracing Puzzle- DonEsteban
5. Actual Jigsaw Puzzles
6. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153021 - Valadil
7. Numerical Puzzles - Valadil
8. Big Red Button Fake-Out - TheThan
9. Impressive Fire Maze - Sipex
10. A Trio of Short Puzzles - kestrel404
11. Thread-Derailing Three Doors Puzzle - Lev
12. "Just use a code!" - DonEsteban
13. Oldimarra's Ironic Gold - Starscream
14. 3-Color Puzzle - Lev
15. Not sure how to describe it - LordHenry 4000
16. ACTUALLY WORKING tracing puzzle- donesteban.
17. Deadbolts & Mirrors- DonEsteban
18. Riddles - AvatarZero
19. Paint A Door- flabort

DonEsteban
2010-05-26, 04:48 PM
The general consensus seems to be that puzzles that involve -characters- and not just players are the best.

No. (Sorry, couldn't let that stand uncommented.)

Moglorosh
2010-05-26, 09:21 PM
The Solution:Just touch the treasure. Gold does not corrode, so it is effectively acid proof (even the bizarre acid you get in fantasy games that dissolves steel instantly).

The acid pours out onto the gold, does nothing to it, dissolves the pillar and spills out onto the real floor, destroying the spikes and then draining harmlessly from the room.

A couple of seconds later the anti-magic field is activated, and the players also fall to the real floor (just far enough to be humorous; this is Olidammara we're dealing with). They are free to scoop up the treasure and leave.

I like the idea of the God of Rogues being the sort who would simply place a valuable treasure in front of you and say "Go on, take it". It's perfectly safe, but you'd be nuts to trust him, right?
I'd be willing to bet money that you guys could figure out a safe way of grabbing even without knowledge of the real-world factoid that forms the solution, but my players were impressed.
This puzzle is wrong on several levels.

First: a mixture of Nitric and Hydrocloric Acids will indeed dissolve gold, as will Mercury (and I'm sure other things will as well).

Second: Walls of Force aren't affected by Anti-Magic Fields. Cast whatever spell you wish, that gold isn't going anywhere and neither are you. Of course, you only get one spell.

Third: as pointed out, any acid that's eating through all that wood has long ago made short work out of your adventurers. Even if they get around it, the process would take a loooooong while. Assuming the wall of force does indeed fail, it either: A)took long enough that it actually dissolved the pillar and spikes before failing, and therefore the adventurers have had plenty of time to shove all that gold into their extra-dimentional bag space and split, or B) The adventurers and gold fall into a big puddle of acid with half-dissolved spikes sticking out of it.

Since we're using a real-world knowledge puzzle, real-world (and RAW) principles should apply.

valadil
2010-05-26, 09:23 PM
No. (Sorry, couldn't let that stand uncommented.)

Would you care to explain? When would you rather solve a puzzle that doesn't relate to the character?

ChrisFortyTwo
2010-05-26, 11:01 PM
One puzzle I used recently was a retake on the yes/no questions. When first encountered, the door says "Ask me a yes or no question, I will not lie." The adventurers can ask any question they want. The door will always answer "yes", "no" or "I do not know this ____ you speak of." (that is when the players refer to something the door wouldn't recognize) . My players asked "is this a 20 questions game?" "no", "Can we get past you?" "yes", "MAY we get past you?" "yes", etc. However, the door will not move.

Repeat the initial statement if they leave and come back. The trick is

ask a false statement, such as "Is the answer to this question 'no'?"

One my former DM had for us was a door that asked "Tell me a funny joke." He was picky, forcing the players to tell jokes "in-character" avoiding real-world references. Each player had to tell a different joke. If someone repeated a joke, the door would say "It was funny the first time" or "I've heard that one before". If the joke is predictable and boring, the door wouldn't laugh.

I find that the hardest thing about puzzles is that it's easy to make them too hard. Players become frustrated by them very quickly, especially if they can't figure out the key to the puzzle. One of the best things to do is have lots of hints ready, and hide/provide them for knowledge/int checks, wisdom checks (I usually think of different types of hints for int vs wis checks), search checks and NPC information (I often have an NPC around that they can ask for help if they want). That way, if they get frustrated, they look for clues, otherwise, they can solve the puzzle.

Also, I second the Book of Challenges. It's got a few good ones in there, plus it talks about the puzzles, and provides hints that can be given with successful knowledge checks.

Rainbownaga
2010-05-27, 01:16 AM
One of my latest puzzles was based off the one from harry potter:

There's a wall of fire you have to pass through and an alter that has a convieniently placed riddle that tells you which potion to drink to get through.

Solution: They're all poison. The wizard used a ring of fire resistance (still on his corpse, which the players have access too).

Took a while to work out, but was fun (for me at least :smalltongue:)

DonEsteban
2010-05-27, 04:47 AM
Would you care to explain? When would you rather solve a puzzle that doesn't relate to the character?
No (to your first question). I don't care enough to derail this nice thread any further.

Here's a favorite of mine, but I haven't thought of a truly satisfying way to include it in a campaign. Maybe you can think of one:

You have two slow-burning fuses, each of which will burn up in exactly one hour. They are not necessarily of the same length and width as each other, nor even necessarily of uniform width, so you can't measure a half hour by noting when one fuse is half burned. Using these two fuses, how can you measure 45 minutes? How can you measure 15 Minutes with only one such fuse (which should be quite long)?

45 Zvahgrf: Yvtug bar shfr ng obgu raqf naq, ng gur fnzr gvzr, yvtug gur frpbaq shfr ng bar raq. Jura gur svefg shfr unf pbzcyrgryl ohearq, lbh xabj gung n unys ubhe unf ryncfrq, naq, zber eryrinagyl, gung gur frpbaq shfr unf n unys ubhe yrsg gb tb. Ng guvf gvzr, yvtug gur frpbaq shfr sebz gur bgure raq. Guvf jvyy pnhfr vg gb ohea bhg va 15 zber zvahgrf. Ng gung cbvag, rknpgyl 45 zvahgrf jvyy unir ryncfrq.

15 Zvahgrf: Phg gur shfr va unys. Yvtug obgu raqf bs obgu shfrf. Jurarire bar shfr unf oheag pbzcyrgryl, phg bar bs gur erznvavat cnegf va unys naq yvtug gur arj raqf. Jura rirelguvat unf oheag pbzcyrgryl, 15 Zvahgrf unir ryncfrq (orpnhfr 4 synzrf jurer oheavat ng nal gvzr). Vg cebonoyl trgf zber npphengr gur ybatre gur shfr vf.

Bharg
2010-05-27, 06:32 AM
Ignite one end of the first fuse and both ends of the second fuse.
When the second fuse burned town completely you ignite the second end of the first fuse. When the first fuse is burned down... 45min?

I alway thought a sphinx would be the classical fantasy quiz and game master, but the DnD sphinx looks a bit more wild...

DonEsteban
2010-05-27, 07:43 AM
Oh, it's there (though not in the SRD): "Gynosphinxes often are willing to bargain for treasure or service. They constantly seek out new intellectual challenges -- riddles, puzzles, and other such tests delight them to no end."

No need to repeat my solution, btw. You made your INT check, so you'll get another clue (http://www.rot13.com).

TheEmerged
2010-05-27, 08:02 AM
I'm actually going to be using one I'm stealing (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/14p25) from Dr McNinja (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/14p26) in our next session (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/14p27). I've warned the older players to let younger ones figure it out, since the adults will recognize it immediately :smallbiggrin:

Bharg
2010-05-27, 08:30 AM
Great, real sphinxes! Talking doors are also pretty authentic.

Oh, I didn't know that decryption thingie.
I like the kind of puzzle the most that requires you to think more abstractly to actually solve it. Afterwards the answer may appear easy or trivial, but you wouldn't have been able to to find it if you did not think oustide the box.

The only problem is that they're not easy to reinvent and that you can only use them once.

This may not be a good example because you can solve it with simple logic, but I'm posting it anyway... Terrible translation ahead...


You hear a voice that tells you:

"I am going to ask you a question for that only one correct answer exists - either yes or no - but it will be impossible for you to answer to my question.

Likely you will know the answer, of course, but you will not be able to give me the right answer. Probably everyone else will be able to reply correctly, but you will not.

What is this question?"

Will you answer me with "no"?

ChrisFortyTwo
2010-05-27, 09:01 AM
Great, real sphinxes! Talking doors are also pretty authentic.

Oh, I didn't know that decryption thingie.
I like the kind of puzzle the most that requires you to think more abstractly to actually solve it. Afterwards the answer may appear easy or trivial, but you wouldn't have been able to to find it if you did not think oustide the box.

The only problem is that they're not easy to reinvent and that you can only use them once.

This may not be a good example because you can solve it with simple logic, but I'm posting it anyway... Terrible translation ahead...


You hear a voice that tells you:

"I am going to ask you a question for that only one correct answer exists - either yes or no - but it will be impossible for you to answer to my question.

Likely you will know the answer, of course, but you will not be able to give me the right answer. Probably everyone else will be able to reply correctly, but you will not.

What is this question?"

Will you answer me with "no"?

When I used mine, the puzzle was for them to figure out that they needed to ask an unanswerable question.

Acero
2010-05-27, 09:03 AM
Three guards stand at two pathways. One path lets you continue on your journey. You die if you follow the other one.

One guard only tells the truth

One gurad only lies

The third stabs people who ask tricky questions

DonEsteban
2010-05-27, 09:25 AM
Stab one guard. Make the other two lead the way.

EccentricOwl
2010-05-27, 02:16 PM
I'm actually going to be using one I'm stealing (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/14p25) from Dr McNinja (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/14p26) in our next session (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/14p27). I've warned the older players to let younger ones figure it out, since the adults will recognize it immediately :smallbiggrin:

Hah! Very evil, and very clever. I personally used that same puzzle in the past. The players loved it as well.

EccentricOwl
2010-05-27, 02:28 PM
Three guards stand at two pathways. One path lets you continue on your journey. You die if you follow the other one.

One guard only tells the truth

One gurad only lies

The third stabs people who ask tricky questions

Didn't they actually lampoon that in OOTS? XD

EccentricOwl
2010-06-05, 02:06 PM
For those of you who have played the PC/Xbox game, "The Bard's Tale," this one should be familiar.

A small prison containing someone you need alive is the setting for this short puzzle.

It's unique in that it needs either a lot of roleplaying or a lot of luck. one of the most interesting ways to do it is to actually get some friends to assist you. It's easy if you're somewhere with lots of helpers, like a college campus, but gets a little more difficult without.

The prison is ideally shoddilly-made or otherwise rickety-lookign; something that has plenty of traps (or the feeling of plenty of traps). It could plausibly have been made by devious Goblinoid minds, for example.

There are three prisoners inside the prison, and three switches available to the players.

Opening the prison is a simple matter of pulling the three switches in the right order (say, ten pulls of the switches: left, right, right, middle, right, left, and so forth.)

The players have no idea what the order is, but the prisoners do. Unfortunately, they don't all agree. While one prisoner (the one the players need to find) has a perfect memory, the other two do not, and, after the first three or four switches, will begin saying the wrong ones or otherwise dissuading the players from the right switches.

Pulling the wrong switch will kill one of the prisoners; first the two that have poor memories, and finally the actual target if the players are that bad at listening to directions.

EccentricOwl
2010-08-10, 02:25 PM
Here's one I just found whilst playing through "Resident Evil 0."


In order to stop a train from crashing (or any other scenario you can imagine,) the players need to swipe a keycard and input a code.

The code isn't obvious, at first. The display reads "00/36" or any other number you can think up for the second number.

There is a keypad, but it only has the numbers 1-9 - no "0".

There are also ten lights. Whenever a player presses a button on the keypad, a light comes on.


In short, the players need to get to the second number by putting together different combinations. For example, for 36, the players would need to input "2+2+2+2+3+9+9+2+3+2". The first two digits help the players keep track of what sum they currently have.


there's also a "hard mode" where the first two digits are unreadable because the screen is damaged. You can simply tell your players not to use scratch paper to help simulate it. =P




This is best done with a very short real-world time limit. give the players enough time to experiment and figure out how the puzzle works, but not enough to make it easy.

EccentricOwl
2011-02-03, 02:51 PM
I hate to ressurect an eons-old thread, but I've collected a number more puzzles.


There is a code (say, perhaps in an evil genius's lair) and a several buttons below it.,

5, 82, 1, 18, 93, 11, 9, 8, 2, 107, 95

There are four possible answers.

20

40

61

86

These four numbers are all options, but only one is the right one - fourty.

The key is that the players are faced with needing to read the numbers differently - each number, if spelt out, starts with the last letter of the previous number and ends with the first letter of the next.

stabbitty death
2011-02-03, 07:30 PM
Yes puzzles are mostly metagaming, though you could let them roll int for a hint or two after some time.



Even not so bright people (in comparison) have good ideas sometimes. Frodo at the moria entrance for example :smallwink:
But you have a point for the int 4 half orc barbarian who solves the puzzles ^^ Then again it is a metagame relief from fighting and roleplaying and best of all you can grab a bite to eat while the players try to solve it :smallbiggrin:



Two of the best riders from Calimshan want to find out who is the best of them. So they ride against each other 3 times but every time they arrive at the finish line at exactly the same time. So this time they decide that the one who´s horse is there last will be the winner.
At first both ride slower and slower until they come to a dead stop and both dismount. They both sit down and wait; one hour passes until suddenly one of the riders jumps up mounts and rides as fast as he can towards the finish line, the other does that too but is too slow and comes too late.
what happened?

he got on the others horse

Fuzzie Fuzz
2011-02-03, 09:26 PM
I hate to ressurect an eons-old thread, but I've collected a number more puzzles.

[number puzzle]

These four numbers are all options, but only one is the right one - fourty.

The key is that the players are faced with needing to read the numbers differently - each number, if spelt out, starts with the last letter of the previous number and ends with the first letter of the next.

Shouldn't the correct answer be eighty-six? (Ninety-five ends with an 'e' and not an 'f' as in 'forty.')

Vaynor
2011-02-03, 11:36 PM
The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.