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okpokalypse
2010-05-20, 02:04 AM
Ok, so here's the deal. In my last gaming session we had quite a fallout (in-game).

We just finished up an encounter against some typical bad-guy NPCs. Our party consists of a Psion (Kineticist), Psychic Warrior, Scout, Ranger and Druid. We finished off the prior battle with minimal effort. Prior planning and getting the jump enabled us to come out of the battle with all but a handful of PSPs in place for the Psion and Psy Warr. We were full HP.

As we're securing the area, the Ranger is checking the perimeter of the location and finds two (2) entities coming. A warrior-looking guy and a golem. He assumes there's a caster controlling the Golem nearby as well so he retreats back to our location and warns us.

Well, all the Psy Warr buffs are on still (hardly any time as passed). Everyone's full HP, and we have the advanced notice. We brace for potential combat - the druid and scout getting into flanking positions, the psion behind the psy-warr and the ranger whines that we should run. I totally didn't get this at all.

Long story short, they issue threats and combat ensues. On the 1st round of the combat the RANGER BOLTS. Just takes off at full run and never looks back. We're all like, WTF?!? Turns out (and he DIDN'T know this in game) there were 3 more casters (all 3-4 levels higher than us) and we had a really rough go. In the end it was a very close fight even with the Ranger having turned coward (didn't even come back when he saw no one else was following his 'retreat').

The Psy Warr dies in a valiant effort to keep all targets on him while the scout and psion attack from the perimeter. His Inertial Armor, Force Screen and good stats keep him standing a long time and only when he's Maze'd by the Golem do things turn for the worse. He's gone 3 rounds and when he comes back he gets ginsu'd because - get this - the Ranger that left took the healing potions we had with him. If the Psy-Warr had them, he could have just consumed them in the Maze and been full HP coming out.

The remaining 3 mange to take down the rest of the group (The Warrior and 1 Mage had already been felled by the Psy Warr) and are victorious. Now here's the problem. The psion and the Psy Warr were brothers and he's directly blaming the death of his brother on the Ranger who abandoned them. The session left off with the combat ending and the re-securing of the area, sans Ranger.

What's more, OOC - at least one player (not myself) now suspects the Ranger PC (who is friends with the DM) was aware of the jist (ECL) of the encounter ahead of time and just meta-gamed it and ran - leaving the party high-and-dry.

During the session he repeatedly (OOC) tried to explain his actions as a "strategic withdrawl" to which I rebuffed him saying, "if you withdraw for a round and see no one in your party is following, and you DON'T turn around to help out - you're now just running away and leaving the party to their fate."

Honestly, I don't see how, going forward, the Psion and the Ranger can co-exist. I think one or the other is going to have to go, either through choice or through intra-party combat - which sucks. And with the Psy Warr down and out of the picture, there's no real damage soaker.

Any thoughts? Advice?

Saint GoH
2010-05-20, 02:26 AM
Sometimes parties just don't blend. Like My N.Evil Horizon Tripper using 2 L.Good clerics to secretly gather souls so he can bargain with a devil... Without them knowing his alignment. :smallbiggrin:

Someone has to give sometime.

Just make sure in-game your character has a decent reason (which it sounds like it does) before leaving/initiating combat. Sometimes friends of the DM metagame and its our job as decent players to ignore that and set an example by playing In-Character.

Greenish
2010-05-20, 02:29 AM


Honestly, I don't see how, going forward, the Psion and the Ranger can co-exist. I think one or the other is going to have to go, either through choice or through intra-party combat - which sucks. And with the Psy Warr down and out of the picture, there's no real damage soaker.

Any thoughts? Advice?Have the druid go to wildshape and buff himself and his animal companion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompletelyMissingThePoint).

Kantolin
2010-05-20, 03:48 AM
Honestly, uh.

Okay, it's not necessarily the ranger's fault that the psywar died, but the ranger is certainly not someone I'd trust at my back again as he won't be there when the going gets tough.

Summarily, you're probably right: the Ranger has proven himself a coward slightly before the going gets tough, so a reasonable IC response is to not (or go find a new ranger).

OOCly, um, it sounds like you have other problems there. If this is going to become a constant thing, then point out that leaving the party to die is worse than having a character get away - party wipes can end games. I'd have a nice long chat about that as it clearly bugs you. :P

As an aside, though, what's the Psywar's player going to do now? If he's going to make a new character, you can request a frontliner (Unless he doesn't want to, in which you'll just have to play differently). But it sounds like the ranger can keep running and make a nice life for himself and his player ca nmake a new character also.

Escheton
2010-05-20, 04:11 AM
hmm, the combat savy generally highly observant survivalist runs away and a bloodrage fueled party rushes to their death due to feeling all high and mighty.
I'm with the ranger. If the party chooses to rush in a man down and can't handle what they bite off thats their problem.
Groupdynamics is now screwed, so one of them prolly has to reroll, but thats just how these things go.

DabblerWizard
2010-05-20, 06:36 AM
Logically speaking, the ranger's withdrawal and confiscation of the healing potions lead only indirectly to the death of the psion's brother. Theoretically, had "fate" worked out differently (i.e. had the dice gods been more favorable), the character may have survived without either the ranger's aid, or the healing potions.

The ranger could even suggest that the rest of the party is more directly to blame for the character's death, because they were actually involved in the battle (and should have been paying more attention, or something).

On a more experiential, emotional level, it's understandable for the psion to be angry. Human beings don't always make perfectly rational, un-emotional decisions.

The psion may blame the ranger for his brother's death, and use that blame to place heavy consideration on the ranger's cowardice. "Why should we have a party member that can't stay and fight?"

Considering all of that, it might be understandable for the psion to push for the ranger's departure.

On the other hand though, once the psion "calms down" from the initial shock and anger of losing his brother, he may begrudgingly come to the conclusion that (1) he doesn't trust or like the ranger, but that (2) the ranger has some integral part as a group member and therefore should stay.

In other words: Justifying character action on the short term, in the heat of the moment, is one thing, while justifying it once the cool and cold power of logic comes back into play, is another.

Gnaeus
2010-05-20, 08:13 AM
What alignments are we talking about?

The reaction of my players (I was DMing when a similar thing happened) was to kill the coward in his sleep that night and loot his stuff to pay for the raise dead on their friend. As a DM I can't say it bothered me any.

Asheram
2010-05-20, 09:30 AM
What alignments are we talking about?

And what levels? On an Archery ranger I can clearly understand why he'd bolt it when there's a golem coming his way.

JeenLeen
2010-05-20, 10:02 AM
On the other hand though, once the psion "calms down" from the initial shock and anger of losing his brother, he may begrudgingly come to the conclusion that (1) he doesn't trust or like the ranger, but that (2) the ranger has some integral part as a group member and therefore should stay.


I agree with this. What will the party concenus after this be? If the entire group decides they do not trust the ranger, it is reasonable to kick him out and have both players make new characters.
However, if the group can decide that they should work together despite this unfortunate incident, that is probably preferable. If the ranger admits he acted wrongly, that would probably help smooth things over. The psion reasonably won't be buddy-buddy with the ranger now, but they can have a working relationship. And if revival for the PsyWar is an option, this becomes somewhat less severe.

Somewhat related, the ranger did not know ic that the fighter and golem had backup, so his running does seem pure cowardice, even if smart. Even if an archer is usually worthless against a golem, he could have focused on the fighter or flanked or just run around administering potions.

It sounds like all the conflict is ic, not ooc. That's good. If it's ooc, talking about it ooc should be added to the above.

okpokalypse
2010-05-20, 11:00 AM
What alignments are we talking about?

The reaction of my players (I was DMing when a similar thing happened) was to kill the coward in his sleep that night and loot his stuff to pay for the raise dead on their friend. As a DM I can't say it bothered me any.

Scout : CG
Ranger: NG
Druid: N
Psy Warr: CN
Psion: CN

The setting is that the Psionic Bro's were on the run from an all-encompassing Wizard's Consortium that's rounding up all non-member to either convert or kill. They're one of two main bad-guy factions in the world. The Psy-Warr was a hot-head in-game, and had an almost unhealthy battle-lust. All were aware of this. The Psion was often the one to reign him in when needed. The Ranger has extreme racial predjudices against certain types (regional) of humans - and has a history of initiating combats (sometimes unnecessarily) when facing that ethnicity of humans.

The Ranger also fancies himself a Rogue, having ties to a local guild of sorts and the first group we took down was a rival guild of his (that we were tracking to help him out - as part of his whole plot tangent) - while the second group coming was of an unknown alliegence.

okpokalypse
2010-05-20, 11:25 AM
Honestly, uh.

Okay, it's not necessarily the ranger's fault that the psywar died, but the ranger is certainly not someone I'd trust at my back again as he won't be there when the going gets tough.

Summarily, you're probably right: the Ranger has proven himself a coward slightly before the going gets tough, so a reasonable IC response is to not (or go find a new ranger).

OOCly, um, it sounds like you have other problems there. If this is going to become a constant thing, then point out that leaving the party to die is worse than having a character get away - party wipes can end games. I'd have a nice long chat about that as it clearly bugs you. :P

As an aside, though, what's the Psywar's player going to do now? If he's going to make a new character, you can request a frontliner (Unless he doesn't want to, in which you'll just have to play differently). But it sounds like the ranger can keep running and make a nice life for himself and his player ca nmake a new character also.

Make a new PC. He and the DM will come to a consensus of what they'll do. The party is in desperate need of healing, as the druid isn't of that vein at all. However, he's been playing either a Cleric or Favored Soul in every campaign he's been in prior to this one dating back to 1996. Yeah, it was a 13 year stretch of designated healer. I don't think it's right to put him back in that role if he doesn't want it - and the DM has outlawed Divine MetaMagic because of his buff-bot tactics in the last campaign - so that really makes Divine casters MUCH less appealing. He's also disallowed Arcane Disciple so an Arcane caster can't dip into Healing. It's a VERY non-power gamey setting if you can't tell. The Psion (Kineticist) is the big damage does with Energy Affinity (Cold) and feats to increase DC.

The thing that bugged the Psy Warr's player more than anything was that, for the first time in a LONG time, he finally had a PC that both wasn't stuck just Healing / Buffing AND he had plot. It's rare that anyone gives healer's plot. They're just not protagonists. And he was really relishing the "man on the run" - "fight the power" - "live free or die" concepts behind the PC. He was more invested in the RP of this PC than any in the past 15 years and he did feel betrayed OOC by a player having his PC abandon the party. I think that's going to be the tough thing to get over - because I think a few ppl in the group (myself included) feel like this player is just playing for himself and not the group as a whole. After all, NG Rangers don't just bolt on their companions right as the combat starts.

He's already leaning towards another Manifester - this time an Ardent with Energy, Guardian, Freedom & Time Mantles (At the level they're at he'd have those). Going Dominant Idealist at L10 (Energy) and being a Meta-Psionic menace - mostly through continuous crowd control (Para-Elemental Power, Knockdown Power, Focus on Electricity for the +2 DC).

okpokalypse
2010-05-20, 12:31 PM
And what levels? On an Archery ranger I can clearly understand why he'd bolt it when there's a golem coming his way.

We were L5 and relatively full. The enemy party was (at first glance) a Warrior and Golem. The Ranger who fled was a dual-wielder who could also shoot if necessary. His reasoning for leaving (which was OOC if you ask me) is that he didn't have a lot of HP (He was full - just bad rolls level-to-level).

What's more, the Scout was a dual-wielding skirmisher with a +3 weapon in his prime hand. We actually did (after DR) 46 Damage to it the 1st round - bloodying it - after it was commanded to charge us. The Psion immediately slowed it and did some hefty damage to the warrior in the process (Energy Bolt). It was at this point that the first caster revealed itself with a Con-Drain effect on the Psy-Warr and before anything else happened, the Ranger bolted.

As far as I'm concerned, if the Golem was "bloodied" and the Warrior took significant damage before they even got to go - we were pretty much winning. Unless he was holding back info about knowing more casters were there, he just turned tail and ran.

Chen
2010-05-20, 12:43 PM
Where were you guys? A fighter + golem almost certainly indicates a caster somewhere too. But unless you had some IC reason to know about an overwhelming (or nearly so) force in the area, there is no reason to flee.

Regardless, whats done is done. Resolve the issue in character. How long have you worked together with the ranger? Has he done other things like this before? See if the party is willing to let things go. Only the psion really has a personal problem with him I'd say. Without some metagaming I frankly can't see how the psion and ranger could stay in the same party after this (meaning someone has to re-roll).

Lord Vampyre
2010-05-20, 01:58 PM
It sounds like there are some major OOC issues. Your best bet is to find a reasonable way of having the Psy Warr raised. As for the Ranger, If the player is meta-gaming or just playing for himself you need to find a way to reign him in. If you kill his character your just going to make matters worse. Also, there comes a time when people have to suck it up and just work together even if they don't trust one another.

Honestly, having played the party leader it was generally my job to get the party to run when I knew we were outmatched. Although, considering the Ranger hadn't taken any damage, it makes it questionable as to his motives in running. My other question would be why in the world did he have all the healing potions? Potions should normally be evenly distributed throughout the party. You never know when your going to have someone blitz the party and takeout the casters.

As a DM, I hate having to integrate new characters. It seriously messes with the storyline. Personally, if I were in the group, I would get the Psy Warr raised and then have the party leader put some sort of leash on the Ranger. You'll never truly be able to trust the Ranger again, but if the player is really just playing for himself, you can't trust any character he makes after this fiasco.

If your worried about the IC outcome. Remember your the player, create some sort of rational justification to get the game moving again. Staying in character is suppose to make the game fun, not bring it to a halt.

GOOD LUCK, whatever the outcome.

okpokalypse
2010-05-20, 03:36 PM
Where were you guys? A fighter + golem almost certainly indicates a caster somewhere too. But unless you had some IC reason to know about an overwhelming (or nearly so) force in the area, there is no reason to flee.

Regardless, whats done is done. Resolve the issue in character. How long have you worked together with the ranger? Has he done other things like this before? See if the party is willing to let things go. Only the psion really has a personal problem with him I'd say. Without some metagaming I frankly can't see how the psion and ranger could stay in the same party after this (meaning someone has to re-roll).

We were outside a low-mid level thieves den (shallow 4 "room" cave) that we tracked them to. The previous en****er was a pair of 6th Level Leaders and some 3rd - 4th level minions. Was quite easy to handle as we had the drop and both the Psion and Psy Warr are pretty well optimized.

All the Ranger saw when scouting was a Warrior and a Golem, and we assumed that there'd be a caster nearby controlling the Golem. Unfortunately, he couldn't identify the Golem (it was Brass - ick).

The Psy Warr (Large Size w/ Inertial Armor & Force Screen up) stood in the cave mouth as they approached to parley with the Druid and Scout on the flanks in the surrounding trees. The Psion was inside the cave, out of sight and the Ranger ascended a hill and observed from about 100' away. We assumed he'd be in for some shots and a charge if something happened.

The other party spoke, assuming we were hired thugs, to send out the leader and we'd all live. The Psy Warr went and grabbed the body and threw it out, proclaiming we already took care of him (the Psy Warr is very blunt). I guess they wanted something from him that we now had because the Warrior issued the order to attack immediately and the Golem charged.

As I can see, we had 3 guys on the flanks, 2 with good ranged ability who could close and a Druid who could provide a myriad of support. We had an already buffed Psy Warr. We had a Psion up our sleeve with nearly full PSP. Without meta-gaming, there's NO reason to run...

Anyhow...

The Psy Warr player isn't upset at all about dying. In his eyes it was a pretty valiant death against superior forces (though it didn't nearly seem that way in the beginning) and his ability to go toe to toe with the Golem and keep the Mage's focus on him kept the rest of the party alive. (Btw - Damp Power is the BEST). His manging to hustle in his last living round to get into position to take out a L10 Mage about to cast Fireball (interrupting it) really turned the tide. As things go, it's not the worst way to meet one's end.

The big issue, moreso than anything, is whether or not it was the RP'ing of the character that caused the abandonment, or was it meta-gaming / the player itself that did it. I'm sure in game it will all be resolved one way or them other. The question is whether this is going to become a theme...

Kaun
2010-05-20, 05:44 PM
It kind of a he said she said issue, but i know if i spent half of my life in combat (as most PC's seem to) i wouldnt want a ranger at my side who may bolt at the first signe of danger leaving his companions to their fates.

I takes a life time to build a good reputation but only one action to earn a bad one and seeing as how most of the other PC's surrvived that rangers rep will quickly turn to mud.

Escheton
2010-05-20, 11:53 PM
Elaborating on my earlyer post:

Wizards, especially thief-guild wizard tend to be invisible.
The only char in your group that even has a chance of spotting them is the ranger. Making people roll spot checks alerts them. Not good if you as a dm already know they can't make it on a 20. And know they can't help metagame if they somehow know there is something there that casts dc 22 fear spells or something of that nature.
If those wizards cast spells such as fear and/or silence on the only person that notices them he will run away for quite a few rounds and/or is unable to voice his reason for running.
As a dm I would have let the ranger roll secretly or roll for him and tell him the result, either beforehand (better) or via a message on his laptop if we both have one on the table.
Because you don't alert the players to the reason behind the effect they will just react to that effect (the ranger bolting) and not the powerfull ability that triggered it. Thus good roleplaying is ensured. Be it due to sneaky dm'ing.

Probably not what happened, but certainly possible.

IonDragon
2010-05-21, 12:00 AM
Kill the ranger. You're totally justified. You can't have a coward that won't watch your back when you know beyond a shadow of a doubt you're going to be in mortal danger.

Or talk to the player, and tell him to reroll, that ranger is no longer welcome in the party.

okpokalypse
2010-05-21, 10:26 PM
Elaborating on my earlyer post:

Wizards, especially thief-guild wizard tend to be invisible.
The only char in your group that even has a chance of spotting them is the ranger. Making people roll spot checks alerts them. Not good if you as a dm already know they can't make it on a 20. And know they can't help metagame if they somehow know there is something there that casts dc 22 fear spells or something of that nature.
If those wizards cast spells such as fear and/or silence on the only person that notices them he will run away for quite a few rounds and/or is unable to voice his reason for running.
As a dm I would have let the ranger roll secretly or roll for him and tell him the result, either beforehand (better) or via a message on his laptop if we both have one on the table.
Because you don't alert the players to the reason behind the effect they will just react to that effect (the ranger bolting) and not the powerfull ability that triggered it. Thus good roleplaying is ensured. Be it due to sneaky dm'ing.

Probably not what happened, but certainly possible.

Yeah, I hear ya. But he definitely was'nt fear'd. He came back to tell us they were approaching, voted to run, was over-ruled and then just bolted anyway when the combat began.

Now if he WAS fear'd he should be showing up right after the fight (once the effect wears off). It's been a good 10 minutes and he hasn't shown yet. He just left...

Asheram
2010-05-22, 06:18 AM
Yeah, I hear ya. But he definitely was'nt fear'd. He came back to tell us they were approaching, voted to run, was over-ruled and then just bolted anyway when the combat began.

Now if he WAS fear'd he should be showing up right after the fight (once the effect wears off). It's been a good 10 minutes and he hasn't shown yet. He just left...

You know, it could also have been that he truly wanted to run from the start. (You say that you could take care of it without the help of the ranger) So he didn't come back due to that. And then when the extra adds came, it was just pure bad luck.

Escheton
2010-05-22, 06:26 AM
his alignment is very important at that point, chaotic characters don't really adhere to majority votes that much...(edit: though I seem to have missed he is ng)
Also, rangers tend to be loners and have such a mindset that makes it more easy to ungroup when the pug isnt working. So to speak. But that seems to be what he did, ungroup. As such it is unlikely you can group after this again.

true_shinken
2010-05-22, 07:43 AM
Scout : CG
Ranger: NG (...)
The Ranger has extreme racial predjudices against certain types (regional) of humans - and has a history of initiating combats (sometimes unnecessarily) when facing that ethnicity of humans.

He is both good and racist? Does not compute.