Miyazaki, Tarquin, and Moral Ambiguity

[semi]

Could the introduction of Tarquin as a potential Lawful Evil villainous protagonist start the beginning of a moral comparison between Tarquin and Miyazaki where someone who is evil (LE) helps the 'heroes' of the tale whereas someone who was good (LG) ended up hindering them in their journey? And I wouldn't include Belkar in the "evil helping the heroes" discussion. To me, he's more a force of nature just spinning out of control; it's just that recently he's been spinning in the same general direction as the OoTS but could easily change.

I'm not saying that the giant intentionally went out of his way to create a story that delves into the definition of good v. evil; but I also wouldn't put it past him either if for nothing else than to provide a good change of pace from genre tropes.

[NerfTW]

I'm not saying that the giant intentionally went out of his way to create a story that delves into the definition of good v. evil;

Why? That's like, one of the major running themes of the entire strip.

[doodthedud]

Could the introduction of Tarquin as a potential Lawful Evil villainous protagonist start the beginning of a moral comparison

On these forums....at least 5 such threads will occur.

[The Pilgrim]

On these forums....at least 5 such threads will occur.

In fact, it has begun already.

:smalleek:

[sihnfahl]

Could the introduction of Tarquin as a potential Lawful Evil villainous protagonist
Tarquin won't be joining Elan. T still has to run the Family Business.

Maybe give Elan some of the LG's gear that T kept when Nale ran off...

... and maybe information. After all, T's been on the continent for 15 years and should be familiar with all the movers and shakers (and the ex-moving and shaking, if you catch my drift...)

[Darcy]

These characters are great examples of how someone's alignment (or any other fact appearing on the character sheet) doesn't have to define their personality. I think this has been one of the core themes of the comic all along. Play the character, not the stats, amirite?

[suszterpatt]

These characters are great examples of how someone's alignment (or any other fact appearing on the character sheet) doesn't have to define their personality. I think this has been one of the core themes of the comic all along. Play the character, not the stats, amirite?This. From what little we've seen of Tarquin so far, he's a good guy, even though he's technically Evil. By contrast, Miko, despite all her monk/paladin discipline, Lawful Good alignment, etc, was simply not a good person.

[Shale]

He's a nice guy. He still kills people in pointless wars professionally.

[hamishspence]

Would the wars have happened without him?

And with him participating, would the wars be shorter and less bloody, due to his professional experience?

This is a fairly common justification mercenaries in fiction use-

"wars are going to be fought- so they might as well be fought by professionals rather than amateurs"

[Darcy]

This. From what little we've seen of Tarquin so far, he's a good guy, even though he's technically Evil. By contrast, Miko, despite all her monk/paladin discipline, Lawful Good alignment, etc, was simply not a good person.

And that's just the thing. Being a "good guy" is a personality trait, while alignment is more about someone's motivations.

And perhaps by being a cunning and efficient general, he prevented some amount of bloodshed, but he didn't go there to make life better for anyone but himself and his young son. Evil people can do a measure of good "by accident" almost as easily as good people can inadvertently cause bad things to happen.

[doodthedud]

And that's just the thing. Being a "good guy" is a personality trait, while alignment is more about someone's motivations.

And perhaps by being a cunning and efficient general, he prevented some amount of bloodshed, but he didn't go there to make life better for anyone but himself and his young son. Evil people can do a measure of good "by accident" almost as easily as good people can inadvertently cause bad things to happen.

Intent is a large part of alignment. And only they know their true intent.

[Darcy]

Precisely.

[Almaseti]

"Good" and "Nice" are not the same thing. Miko wasn't nice, but she thought she was acting for the greater good, and we did see her go out of her way to help people just because they needed it, like the dirt farmers, and genuinely cared about her homeland and comrades. And her horse too. She was also completely inflexible and eventually delusional, but she cared, and even after she fell she didn't take Sabine's offer to become a blackguard just because things weren't going her way.

Tarquin is nice, but his "family business" involves habitual backstabbing, near-constant warfare for no reason but to gain power, institutional slavery and probably a host of other nastiness we haven't seen yet. The fact that he seems to care about Elan (and cared about Nale until Nale betrayed him) doesn't make him Good, or even Neutral, only less evil than people like Xykon, who enjoys hurting people. Maybe a little more evil than Redcloak, seeing as he doesn't even seem to care much about the people in the nations he helps rule.

[derfenrirwolv]

I think tarquin is going to be obligated to kill elan off before elan offs him.

[Mastikator]

For all we know he may as well have saved their lives, since escaping might have been lethal for them.
So he's already more useful than Miko. He doesn't have to come with them to show this. In fact, Miko never came with the OotS, she dragged them along.

On another note, maybe Tarquin knows something about Haleys dad. That's a major +1 for him. Instead of several major -1's, like Miko.


Edit- also evil people are capable of truly caring about other people. (it's just that people who don't are usually also the evil ones)
But it's not entirely unreasonable that Tarquin genuinely cares about his son and wants to help him without anything back. I mean, some parents are like that right? :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

"Will this story have a happy ending?"

"Yes, for you, at least."

Maybe Tarquin will be part of Elan's "happy ending"?

[sihnfahl]

I think tarquin is going to be obligated to kill elan off before elan offs him.
Barring a redemption storyline. Like trying to convince T to aid folks who want to set up truly Good nations, rather than hire himself out to any comers, regardless of alignment and motivation.

[pendell]

He's a nice guy. He still kills people in pointless wars professionally.

Woah, woah, woah. We don't know that he's a nice guy. We know that he can be a charming guy. That's a very different thing from being nice.

We don't know that he will assist Elan and company. He might find greater profit in opposing them. Or he might demand a side quest quid pro quo which is Evil.

"Yes, I'll tell you where Girard's gate is if you wipe out that inconvenient village of Lizard Folk, man, woman, and child."

And we don't know .. once he agreed to help .. that he wouldn't betray them. Nale IS his son, after all, and took his outlook from him.

I'm withholding judgement on how nice he is just as I previously withheld judgement as to whether he was lawful evil or not, and for the same reason: We don't really know that much about him, yet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[sihnfahl]

We don't know that he will assist Elan and company. He might find greater profit in opposing them.
That depends on what Elan tells him, though.

Personally, I think explaining that an epic-level Lich wants to take control of a world-eating monstrosity is his Quest would bring T a little into Elan's corner.

How can T profit from a dead world, after all? Well, at least until he dies from the world-eating monstrosity...

[Rad]

"Good" and "Nice" are not the same thing. Miko wasn't nice, but she thought she was acting for the greater good, and we did see her go out of her way to help people just because they needed it, like the dirt farmers, and genuinely cared about her homeland and comrades. And her horse too. She was also completely inflexible and eventually delusional, but she cared, and even after she fell she didn't take Sabine's offer to become a blackguard just because things weren't going her way.

Tarquin is nice, but his "family business" involves habitual backstabbing, near-constant warfare for no reason but to gain power, institutional slavery and probably a host of other nastiness we haven't seen yet. The fact that he seems to care about Elan (and cared about Nale until Nale betrayed him) doesn't make him Good, or even Neutral, only less evil than people like Xykon, who enjoys hurting people. Maybe a little more evil than Redcloak, seeing as he doesn't even seem to care much about the people in the nations he helps rule.

I think you just won this thread.

[Dr.Epic]

On these forums....at least 5 such threads will occur.

Good idea. I'm gonna create another thread with the same discussion.

[veti]

There is such a thing as a legitimate difference of opinion.

Good isn't "one big happy family" any more than Evil is. In fact, even if people are both "good" and "nice", that doesn't necessarily mean they're on the same side all the time. (Hinjo was planning to arrest Shojo. Tiger warns Thor against interfering in southern lands. Daigo and Kazumi have no problem deceiving Hinjo about their pregnancy. And so on.)

Conversely, there's nothing to say that evil people can't help good ones out, if their interests happen to coincide. That's why Belkar is with the OOTS, it's why the OOTS have (repeatedly) been helped by an oracle who works for Tiamat, it's why Haley and Celia were able to do a deal (however short-lived) with the Greysky Thieves' Guild. If Tarquin does give Elan & co some major help (more than he already has), that won't mean he's turning Good - it'll just mean he sees some sort of advantage in co-operating, at least for the time being.

[Zemsel]

This. From what little we've seen of Tarquin so far, he's a good guy, even though he's technically Evil.

Tarquin admitted he came over to the desert continent for the purpose of easy conquest and raised his own son to be ruthless. To say nothing of how he's a high ranking official of a obviously evil empire.

He might be charming and friendly, but "good" is not about being charming and friendly.


By contrast, Miko, despite all her monk/paladin discipline, Lawful Good alignment, etc, was simply not a good person.

Nah, she wasn't a "nice" person, but she was clearly a fairly "good" person up until she went off the deep end.

[Water-Smurf]

It's a possibility, and it's an interesting one. Rich likes messing with the traditional fantasy concepts--Lawful Good equals good and Always Evil races are always evil and so on--so I wouldn't put it past him. But I'm not sure if I'm feeling it here, though that could just be my intuition being off. It doesn't feel like he's being set up to be overarching commentary on the genre, our perceptions, and the world in general and it feels more like it's a set up for more character development for Elan, though they're by no means mutually exclusive. He's not a separate symbol, doomed to serve as a lesson like Miko was. He's inextricably connected to one of the main cast by blood, and that gives him more of an earthy tie, if I'm making any sense whatsoever. He's a symbol for one of the characters specifically (if Elan's grown up without a father, then he must have gotten some sort of symbolic quality for him), and it'd probably be a bit heavy to turn him into a symbol for the audience too, though I'd admire anyone who could pull it off.

[Coidzor]

With this crowd and sufficient interest/motivation, we can make a waffle into a meaningful symbol.

I don't think there's much to worry about on that end aside from something uncharacteristically bad on Rich's end.

[Morgan Wick]

Why? That's like, the major running theme of Start of Darkness.

Fixed.

Why am I not surprised this had to be a Miko thread?

[Swordpriest]

Since geniality indicates nothing about someone's moral fiber, and obnoxiousness indicates nothing about someone's moral fiber, what on Earth do Tarquin's and Miko's respective levels of interpersonal pleasantness have to do with "Moral Ambiguity?" :smallconfused:

Miko fought on the side of good and tried to preserve the world from destruction and/or enslavement.

Tarquin chops off heads for his own gain, lives happily in a palace built by slaves, and hires out his army to the highest bidder among a bunch of vile, murderous tyrants.

Where's the ambiguity? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

[B. Dandelion]

I'm not saying that the giant intentionally went out of his way to create a story that delves into the definition of good v. evil;


Why? That's like, one of the major running themes of the entire strip.


Why? That's like, one of the major running themes of the entire strip Start of Darkness.


Fixed.

Yeah it's totally not like that ever comes up in the strip itself, to the point of characters going on for pages and pages of pure exposition about the real nature of good and evil.

Wait, what? Are strips like 282 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) or the whole Deva review process only available to my IP or something?

[Luzahn]

Since geniality indicates nothing about someone's moral fiber, and obnoxiousness indicates nothing about someone's moral fiber, what on Earth do Tarquin's and Miko's respective levels of interpersonal pleasantness have to do with "Moral Ambiguity?" :smallconfused:

Miko fought on the side of good and tried to preserve the world from destruction and/or enslavement.

Tarquin chops off heads for his own gain, lives happily in a palace built by slaves, and hires out his army to the highest bidder among a bunch of vile, murderous tyrants.

Where's the ambiguity? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

Er...no evil laugh?

[NerfTW]

Fixed.

Why am I not surprised this had to be a Miko thread?

Yeah, let's see, No.


If you don't think that's one of the running themes of the ENTIRE COMIC, I seriously wonder what the heck you've been reading.

[theMycon]

Honestly, Tarquin reminds me of my own father, perfectly, right down to "pushed my sister's boyfriend out a window to win an argument in a hurry, but honestly apologized when he realized it was her boyfriend" and "8 marriages." Officially a sociopath, even has it in writing; and used to kill people professionally for largely pointless wars* before he retired to his own business.

He is not a "nice" person. He is not a "good" person. He is a charming and charismatic person. If your interests happen to not conflict with his, you will stay on his good side and will not have problems; his life is easier if the people around him like him and will do him small favors (or, at least, not go out of their way to cause him trouble). It is trivially easy to not offend him as long as you don't have any goals, and if you want something that profits him then he might even lend support. But you should still get the hell away from him, or anyone like him, as fast as you possibly can, because they simply cannot comprehend that other people are actually people.

Not that Big T will necessarily continue this path, but loving his son (the exact same way he loves his shirt, and the way he seems to have loved his wives) does not gaurentee his protection for longer than it is fun.


*I'd argue this is as much as because of "Lawful" as it is "Evil." He didn't particularly enjoy it, but the government said he had to if he wanted his Grad school paid for.

[The Succubus]

It's worth remembering that just because someone is aligned evil, doesn't mean that they can't have a certain charm and actually good and helpful from time to time. Unfortunately I only have one piece of evidence to back this claim up:

:belkar:

[Icedaemon]

And that's just the thing. Being a "good guy" is a personality trait, while alignment is more about someone's motivations.

And perhaps by being a cunning and efficient general, he prevented some amount of bloodshed, but he didn't go there to make life better for anyone but himself and his young son. Evil people can do a measure of good "by accident" almost as easily as good people can inadvertently cause bad things to happen.

First of all, you are confusing 'nice' and 'good', a common mistake.

Secondly, while doing 'good' by accident is certainly more difficult than causing something ill, a pragmatic person with a proper amount of self-interest is more likely to partake in benevolent deeds on purpose (albeit a selfish one) than a (non-moronic) bleeding-heart fellow partaking in atrocities.

I for one see motivation and intent as the integral aspect of alignment. Killing anyone for vengance is an evil act, even if the being being killed is a complete monster.


Edit- also evil people are capable of truly caring about other people. (it's just that people who don't are usually also the evil ones)
But it's not entirely unreasonable that Tarquin genuinely cares about his son and wants to help him without anything back. I mean, some parents are like that right? :smalltongue:

He does likely want something back, but it's probably something that any sensible parent would be expected to want in return, such as continuation of their name and legacy, deeds to be proud of (like, say, saving the world the old man lives on) and so on.

[magic9mushroom]

This. From what little we've seen of Tarquin so far, he's a good guy, even though he's technically Evil. By contrast, Miko, despite all her monk/paladin discipline, Lawful Good alignment, etc, was simply not a good person.

No. She was good. I recently posted a list of every act we've ever seen her do, and the verdict was quite heavily on the side of Good.

She wasn't nice.

Of course, that was probably what you meant by "good", but considering you mentioned it in the same breath as the alignment descriptor it was rather ambiguous.

---

Miko plays Superman, but is a Superdick.

Tarquin's affable, but isn't at all afraid to double-cross people or work for Capital-E Evil people as long as it benefits what he wants.

Long story short, I'd prefer to hang out with Tarquin, but would much prefer Miko as a companion in a life-or-death situation. (Obviously, I'd prefer O-Chul in either, but that's not particularly relevant.)

[Luzahn]

No. She was good. I recently posted a list of every act we've ever seen her do, and the verdict was quite heavily on the side of Good.

She wasn't nice.

Of course, that was probably what you meant by "good", but considering you mentioned it in the same breath as the alignment descriptor it was rather ambiguous.

---

Miko plays Superman, but is a Superdick.

Tarquin's affable, but isn't at all afraid to double-cross people or work for Capital-E Evil people as long as it benefits what he wants.

Long story short, I'd prefer to hang out with Tarquin, but would much prefer Miko as a companion in a life-or-death situation. (Obviously, I'd prefer O-Chul in either, but that's not particularly relevant.)

Hm, I'd rather trust my life to someone whos not prone to kill me if her gods give the OK. Evil is more predictable.

[magic9mushroom]

Hm, I'd rather trust my life to someone whos not prone to kill me if her gods give the OK. Evil is more predictable.

Tarquin, on the other hand, will kill me if his own inner game-theorist gives him the OK. Miko only went off the rails once in all her time of paladining, remember.

[Luzahn]

Well, to be fair, the one time Miko did go off, she destroyed a dimensional anchor imprisoning apocalypse.

[magic9mushroom]

Well, to be fair, the one time Miko did go off, she destroyed a dimensional anchor imprisoning apocalypse.

Which may have needed doing anyway, owing to the rather large hobgoblin army occupying the city.

You can't deny that she was obviously trying to help.

[DeltaEmil]

Also, O-Chul himself intended to destroy said dimensional anchor imprisoning apocalypse, and was stopped by the lich lord. What Miko did was not the best decision, but as Soon himself said, it was adequate, not evil or anything like that.

As for Tarquin, dramatic convention demands that he and his good-aligned son will have to fight, and that either must at least chop off one hand of the other. :smallsmile:

[mucat]

Which may have needed doing anyway, owing to the rather large hobgoblin army occupying the city.

You can't deny that she was obviously trying to help.
Well...kinda. If you squint just right, from a generous angle, she was trying to help. Trouble is, her thoughts were not "Hey, I can help," so much as "It shall be I, Miko Miyazaki, who helps."

She was entirely focused her imagined narrative of a righteous soul, unjustly persecuted, who proves in the end that she was right all along. She had no attention to spare for details unrelated to Miko's Triumphant Moment of Vindication...details like the fact that Soon was kicking Xyokon and Redcloak's butts.

You're right that even without her blindness, the hobgoblins would still have held the city...but Xykon and Redcloak would have died in the throne room, vastly lessening the threat of apocalypse.

I'm not saying all this to kick an easy target when she's down; I actually found Miko's last moments quite tragic and human. Her dying conversation with Soon was especially powerful, and showed greater maturity than we had ever seen from her. But I don't think her motives near the end of her life can be called "Good", no matter how hard she wanted to believe they were.

[Murdim]

Also, O-Chul himself intended to destroy said dimensional anchor imprisoning apocalypse, and was stopped by the lich lord. What Miko did was not the best decision, but as Soon himself said, it was adequate, not evil or anything like that.

As for Tarquin, dramatic convention demands that he and his good-aligned son will have to fight, and that either must at least chop off one hand of the other. :smallsmile:
I'm not persuaded that the Skywalker jurisprudence alone count as "dramatic convention".

Anyway, theMycon sounds spot-on. Horribly, depressingly, terrifyingly spot-on.

[Icedaemon]

Well, to be fair, the one time Miko did go off, she destroyed a dimensional anchor imprisoning apocalypse.

No the one time she went wholly and completely off the line, she killed a defenseless old man. The anchor holding off the apocalypse was just her idea of a logical continuation thereof.

[Darcy]

First of all, you are confusing 'nice' and 'good', a common mistake.

My apologies, I meant it to be read in the way you'd say "he helped me move yesterday, he's a good guy," rather than "one who is on the good team." When I wrote it I didn't even consider that calling someone one of the "good guys" meant almost exactly the opposite of what I meant.

[hamishspence]

No the one time she went wholly and completely off the line, she killed a defenseless old man.

And a defenseless old man whose actions, while dubious, were nothing to justify killing him for.

[Luzahn]

No the one time she went wholly and completely off the line, she killed a defenseless old man. The anchor holding off the apocalypse was just her idea of a logical continuation thereof.

Well, at least it was funny.

:belkar:

[DeltaEmil]

You're right that even without her blindness, the hobgoblins would still have held the city...but Xykon and Redcloak would have died in the throne room, vastly lessening the threat of apocalypse.
Redcloak would have died. Xykon on the other hand would regenerate later, as Soon couldn't destroy the phylactery, and the hobgoblin army had already won at this point. The phylactery is protected by the best spells known to the lich lord (an epic level monster) and his goblin slave priest (capable of defeating the high priest of the southern gods), and O-Chul couldn't scratch it. Any other human, be it Miko or the Order of the Stick, would be equally incapable of erasing the threat that is Xykon.

[Luzahn]

Dunno, I feel like an extremely powerful, ghost-paladin could have destroyed the phylactery, or at least kept it where a regenerating Xykon would be re-destroyed.

[hamishspence]

It's possible Xykon put all those defenses on it after Soon's comment about instructing the next person who comes into the room, to smash it.

I.E.- since it came so close to being destroyed, he spent some of the time between gaining Azure City, and Spliced V's attack- putting all the protections on.

[DeltaEmil]

As Soon said, he is insubstantial and therefore unable to shatter the amulet around the neck of Xykon's servant.

[hamishspence]

Here, he seems really worried about the phylactery-

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html

but when O-Chul tries much later, he seems to think it's in no danger of being damaged.

This might support the "he put buffs on it after seizing Azure City" theory.

[Thanatosia]

If Tarquins sole storytelling role is to prove that Evil people can be protagonists just as easily as a LG like Miko can be an Antagonist, then I'm afraid Belkar has beaten him to the punch by like 700 strips.

[Murdim]

If Tarquins sole storytelling role is to prove that Evil people can be protagonists just as easily as a LG like Miko can be an Antagonist, then I'm afraid Belkar has beaten him to the punch by like 700 strips.
Since when was Miko's sole storytelling role to prove that Good people can be antagonists ? :smallconfused:

[Darklord Xavez]

Could the introduction of Tarquin as a potential Lawful Evil villainous protagonist start the beginning of a moral comparison between Tarquin and Miyazaki where someone who is evil (LE) helps the 'heroes' of the tale whereas someone who was good (LG) ended up hindering them in their journey?

That's why I dislike the alignment system. I usually put Lawful Evil on my character sheet just 'cause it looks cool.
-Xavez

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I saw Miyazaki and thought of the animator...

[sihnfahl]

Here, he seems really worried about the phylactery
Well, to be fair, if anyone got their hands on the phylactery, and gotten away from the army, they'd have had a lot of time to undo any protections Xykon could have put on it without him being able to do a thing about it.

[mucat]

Redcloak would have died. Xykon on the other hand would regenerate later, as Soon couldn't destroy the phylactery, and the hobgoblin army had already won at this point. The phylactery is protected by the best spells known to the lich lord (an epic level monster) and his goblin slave priest (capable of defeating the high priest of the southern gods), and O-Chul couldn't scratch it. Any other human, be it Miko or the Order of the Stick, would be equally incapable of erasing the threat that is Xykon.
If the phylactery had ended up in the hands of the good guys, I imagine they could have kept Xykon from regenerating pretty much indefinitely. Just station trusted guards to grind to dust any bones which start to form near the phylactery, until they could research a way to destroy it.

This adds another layer of irony to Miko's story: there really was a vitally important world-saving role for her to play. As the only corporeal Azurite in the throne room, it would have been up to her to somehow survive and smuggle the phylactery out of Azure City.

[Coidzor]

This adds another layer of irony to Miko's story: there really was a vitally important world-saving role for her to play. As the only corporeal Azurite in the throne room, it would have been up to her to somehow survive and smuggle the phylactery out of Azure City.

From her beginnings to the bitter, beige end, she was a thorn in the side of those whose side she believed herself to be on, ayep.

[DeltaEmil]

If the phylactery had ended up in the hands of the good guys, I imagine they could have kept Xykon from regenerating pretty much indefinitely. Just station trusted guards to grind to dust any bones which start to form near the phylactery, until they could research a way to destroy it.

This adds another layer of irony to Miko's story: there really was a vitally important world-saving role for her to play. As the only corporeal Azurite in the throne room, it would have been up to her to somehow survive and smuggle the phylactery out of Azure City.If the good guys could get it. The palace was already overrun by the hobgoblin legions, the azurite army routed, the priests and wizards slain or out of spells, and the sapphire order had annihilated itself through the power of the lich lord. Even Miko, by then a fighter without bonus feats, who can easily kill two hobgoblins by kicking one head to the other, couldn't prevail against more than 10.000 warriors with arcane and divine magic support. Sneaking away won't be her forté with only one or two monk levels and what precious few skill points monks and paladins have. The Order of the Stick were already defeated by losing their leader, and Hinjo, the regent constantly assailed by assassins sent from treacherous nobles.

There really was no way for the azurites or the order of the stick to defeat the threat posed by the lich lord and the chosen of the Dark One once and for all.

Also, it's important to destroy the crimson mantle as well, as this artifact is more dangerous than the phylactery by its very existence. I wonder if Soon knew that the cape around redcloak was an unholy artifact that itself threatens the world as long as the rifts exist... I guess not, as he didn't actively try to destroy it when he was adventuring with the order of the scribble, nor later, when the goblins rose to conquer the rifts, and no sapphire order paladin ever tries to do something with the crimson mantle, as we can see in Start of Darkness.

[magic9mushroom]

From her beginnings to the bitter, beige end, she was a thorn in the side of those whose side she believed herself to be on, ayep.

Dirt farmers. She also brought Azure City its (albeit woefully inadequate) warning about the hobgoblin army.

Oh, and there's obviously the fact that she managed to arrest the OotS and successfully bring them to Azure City.

These acts all helped the cause of Good.

[Procyonpi]

Barring a redemption storyline. Like trying to convince T to aid folks who want to set up truly Good nations, rather than hire himself out to any comers, regardless of alignment and motivation.

Isn't it obvious? Taraquin will die by throwing Malack and /or the EoB down a reactor shaft to save elan!

[The Succubus]

I saw Miyazaki and thought of the animator...

Don't worry, you weren't the only one. Also, as a heads up, just be careful a little here - you know how moral threads tend to attract the Wrath of Mod.

[Coidzor]

Oh, and there's obviously the fact that she managed to arrest the OotS and successfully bring them to Azure City.

Now, why did she get that job?

[DeltaEmil]

She got that job because she was the strongest and most experienced paladin of the Sapphire Order, capable of apprehending a dangerous groups of individuals who threaten the very fabrics of reality. The best servant of Lord Shoujo, who although not very likeable, is the one who has always suceeded.

Who'd knew that because of Roy's failure to really destroy Xykon and his willing association with Belkar, a dangerous psychopath, she'd break under all that stress? :smalltongue:

[Ancalagon]

Not entirely true: She ALSO got the job because it would send her away for months and weeks. Hinjo said she'd get those jobs so she would not be at home.

[homeosapiens]

For me the most impossible fight in Oots. Miko winning vs 5 adventurers. Even if Durkon just heals it is near impossible. V should be prepared that events could go this way - he is an smart guy after all, and really nobody liked her.

First round he casts mass bears endurance, sec mass bulls strenght. Elan uses music, Roy attacks, Belkar is stunned (even thought Giant said in descripcion that it uses will save instead of fort, which is prob. mistake, and B could not be stunned 3 times with fort save, 1 would be wonder, becouse his save is stronger than Roys at this point/if Roy isnt few lv higher than him, which is possible/), Haley sneak attacks flanking with Roy, using Elans rapier in sec round. That's it. That leaves Windstriker out, but he can grapple only one person, and it cant be Roy, which makes Miko lose anyway.

Roy got at least 18 natural str, 22 with bull's. thats +6, music gives +2, he is a at least 12lv fighter +20/15/10(without possible flanking) of damage like weapon basic+9(str)+2song, he should deliver at least 30 damage every round. Haley should deliver at least one sneak per turn, which is 1k6+6k6+3(str)+2(music)~29, even if she gets grappled, than V can help Roy. Mass enlarge person would make Oots stomp her, and deny Windstriker ability to grapple anyone.That leaves Elan doing nothing(with all bonuses he'd deal damage too). That leaves Belkar out too, and he should save against stun like most of the time. Rage+bulls +bears +enlarge+song, bah, he should be really badass.

She couldn't win this.

[Ancalagon]

She couldn't win this.

It was explained in-comic. It was a railroad plot.

Miko needed to get the Order on the way and there would have been other possible explanations how she defeated them. Rich went for the "quick and dirty" approach and made a joke about it. That is legit. It does not matter HOW exactly she rounded them up and the (meta-)joke is about exactly that.

[Kish]

For me the most impossible fight in Oots. Miko winning vs 5 adventurers. Even if Durkon just heals it is near impossible. V should be prepared that events could go this way - he is an smart guy after all, and really nobody liked her.

First round he casts mass bears endurance, sec mass bulls strenght.
[...]
She couldn't win this.
I was going to give my standard "wizard, not super wizard/sorcerer prestige class" answer to the suggestion that Vaarsuvius should have cast different spells we have no indication s/he had prepared at the time which s/he may not have even known yet. Then I realized the rest of the post made similar "the Order suddenly starts doing exactly what they would do if I was mentally directing each and every one of them" assumptions...so I'll link this (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7) instead.

For the sake of irrelevancy, we can certainly say that Miko couldn't have beaten an Order of the Stick that was telepathically controlled by you, including your choosing the spells Vaarsuvius had prepared. Luckily for her, she only had to beat the Order in the comic. If you've read Rich's post on the subject, you know what the Order did, and why it didn't work.

(I'll also note, as an aside, that Belkar's Will save might--depending on levels--be exactly one point higher than Roy's because he's multiclassed with barbarian,(Scratch that, Rich clarified that Belkar was estimated at level 12 at the time of the fight. Base Will save of a level 12 fighter: +4. Base Will save of a level 11/1 ranger/barbarian: Also +4) before we apply their respective Wisdom modifiers; there's no way Belkar's total Will save comes out higher than Roy's...which Miko knew from exposure to Belkar, Rich's misremembering which save her Stunning Fist should target aside, and as a level 12 fighter and a level 11/1 ranger/barbarian, Roy and Belkar would have base Fortitude saves of +8 and +9 respectively, before their Constitution modifiers are added; Roy's Constitution modifier may easily be higher than Belkar's.)

[Gitman00]

For the sake of irrelevancy, we can certainly say that Miko couldn't have beaten an Order of the Stick that was telepathically controlled by you, including your choosing the spells Vaarsuvius had prepared. Luckily for her, she only had to beat the Order in the comic. If you've read Rich's post on the subject, you know what the Order did, and why it didn't work.

And if you haven't read said post, here it is: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639

[DeltaEmil]

Not entirely true: She ALSO got the job because it would send her away for months and weeks. Hinjo said she'd get those jobs so she would not be at home.She was still the only one capable of doing it, as neither Hinjo, nor O-Chul or Lien or any other unnamed paladins together are as good as Miko for that sort of job. If it's about the very existence of the world, you send your best, and not one of the many lesser paladins the sapphire guard had at its disposal.

[Ancalagon]

"Good" at what job? Go to the north and tell some people they should come south?

The idea to solve this with plain violence was totally Miko's idea. Someone smarter and wiser could have solved it much better - without violence and probably also with less levels and "power".

[DeltaEmil]

"Good" at what job? Go to the north and tell some people they should come south?

The idea to solve this with plain violence was totally Miko's idea. Someone smarter and wiser could have solved it much better - without violence and probably also with less levels and "power".She did inquire about the Order of the Stick. She got information that all of them were heinous criminals stomping on harmless creatures, chained and humiliated a blacksmith, killed three person for fun although not needed, and threw small animals into the mouth of monster. Comically, only the part with the blacksmith is not entirely true, and everybody else would equally have deemed the Order a public danger for alll of existence. Someone much better and wiser (there is nobody in the Sapphire Guard that beats Miko's skills and experience) would have done exactly the same thing with the same amount of information they had gathered. It really doesn't matter if it were one of the many unnamed paladins, Hinjo, O-Chul, Lien or Miko who attacked the Order during the stormy night. They'd all do the same and solve the problem with violence because all evidence points to the Order being a bunch of thugs, psychopaths and sadists (incidently, all these accusations are true for Belkar). Miko just had a higher chance of succeeding than anybody else.

[Gitman00]

She did inquire about the Order of the Stick. She got information that all of them were heinous criminals stomping on harmless creatures, chained and humiliated a blacksmith, killed three person for fun although not needed, and threw small animals into the mouth of monster. Comically, only the part with the blacksmith is not entirely true, and everybody else would equally have deemed the Order a public danger for alll of existence. Someone much better and wiser (there is nobody in the Sapphire Guard that beats Miko's skills and experience) would have done exactly the same thing with the same amount of information they had gathered. It really doesn't matter if it were one of the many unnamed paladins, Hinjo, O-Chul, Lien or Miko who attacked the Order during the stormy night. They'd all do the same and solve the problem with violence because all evidence points to the Order being a bunch of thugs, psychopaths and sadists (incidently, all these accusations are true for Belkar). Miko just had a higher chance of succeeding than anybody else.

Bah. She may have gotten some biased intelligence, but she was looking for a fight before she even departed, and sighed when Shojo suggested that she try to bring them in alive. The manner in which she arrested them supports this; she chose to interpret Roy's (rightful) demand for an explanation as resisting arrest so she'd have an excuse to attack them. We have empirical evidence that even if they were guilty, Hinjo would have done his level best to talk them down unless they attacked first, because that's exactly what he did with Miko.

[Kish]

Bah. She may have gotten some biased intelligence, but she was looking for a fight before she even departed, and sighed when Shojo suggested that she try to bring them in alive.
While Miko did not comply with Shojo'sMr. Scruffy's orders, I feel obligated to suggest that the sigh may have been for the fact that she'd just gotten an order from a housecat again.

[Gitman00]

While Miko did not comply with Shojo'sMr. Scruffy's orders, I feel obligated to suggest that the sigh may have been for the fact that she'd just gotten an order from a housecat again.

Heh. I'll grant you that one. The rest of it still stands, though.

[Swordpriest]

And if you haven't read said post, here it is: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639

That is absolutely awesome. Thank you for linking to it! :smallbiggrin:

[DeltaEmil]

Mr. Scruffy only said that she should try her best to bring them back alive for trial. :smalltongue:

She wanted to only kill Roy (the only person she tried her smite evil-ability on during the stormy night), who detected as strongly evil (that aura coming from an epic lich who had slain two mighty defenders of the rifts), and according to the witnesses Miko interrogated, was appearently the most cruel member of the Order of the Stick (and depending on what else the blacksmith said, consorting with a shapeshifting fiend).

Had Hinjo the same (faulty) testimonies and seen a powerful and intense aura of evil that was emanating from the warrior, who trafficked with fiends and destroyed one of the corner stones of the world, he and his other fellow paladins (as he's not powerful enough to travel alone) would also try to eliminate the most dangerous person. The survivors would then prove to be more manageable to guard.
It's rather a wonder that Miko didn't detect Belkar's evil while scanning the Order a last time to be sure.
Hilarity ensues when everything was just some kind of misunderstanding.

[Gitman00]

Had Hinjo the same (faulty) testimonies and seen a powerful and intense aura of evil that was emanating from the warrior, who trafficked with fiends and destroyed one of the corner stones of the world, he and his other fellow paladins (as he's not powerful enough to travel alone) would also try to eliminate the most dangerous person. The survivors would then prove to be more manageable to guard.

No, he wouldn't.

Hinjo saw Miko Miyazaki murder Shojo in cold blood, saw her fall from paladinhood, and still stood between her and Belkar (whom he knew was an evil murderer), and tried talking her down before fighting. An evil alignment, to most paladins, is not enough to justify an unprovoked attack, even against a criminal you know is guilty. More to the point, the comic has shown us what Hinjo does when faced with a dangerous criminal. He doesn't attack before trying diplomacy. Hell, he was still trying to talk sense into her while she was attacking him.

Yes, it would be pragmatic to attack without warning and take out the strongest member of the party quickly. But that's kind of the point of paladinhood. A paladin is not a mercenary who does what's expedient in the name of getting the job done. A paladin does the right thing, the right way, for the right reason (I suspect that's written in some sourcebook, but anyway...). Sometimes that makes his job harder. So be it. Miko trod a very fine line with the way she operated, and eventually slipped to the wrong side of that line.


It's rather a wonder that Miko didn't detect Belkar's evil while scanning the Order a last time to be sure.
Hilarity ensues when everything was just some kind of misunderstanding.

Agreed. I always wondered about that. She apparently only detected evil on Roy the first time around, and made her judgment based on that.

[mucat]

It's rather a wonder that Miko didn't detect Belkar's evil while scanning the Order a last time to be sure.
But Belkar is Chaotic Neutral.

(Sprints for cover. "It's a joke! Ow! A joke!")

[Zevox]

It's rather a wonder that Miko didn't detect Belkar's evil while scanning the Order a last time to be sure.
That's because she didn't "scan the Order a last time to be sure." She didn't even scan the entire Order once. She tells us point-blank here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) that she scanned only Roy, Durkon, and Elan before confronting them.

Zevox

[Shatteredtower]

Gitmo00, your observation about paladins and mercenaries is a good one and I agree that Hinjo would have at least made an effort at negotiation before attacking, assuming he could somehow track the party.

Redcloak's mother, however, could tell you that paladins aren't always that patient or discerning.

[Ancalagon]

She did inquire about the Order [...]

I have two questions:
A) Was she right or was she wrong?
B) Could she very easily have found out she was wrong before attacking?

I think the obvious answer to A) is "She was wrong" and the one to B) is "yes, she could have".

Miko was a self-centered, self-righteous bully with the will to commit violence and killings and as that, did a horrbile job in bringing the Order to Azure City.

[Darcy]

I feel like Shojo could have sent any other paladin, and told them simply "hey, I need to talk to these guys, please go find them" and they would have done so with little fuss... however asking that of a normal, emotionally balanced paladin will not yield the spectacular results that telling Miko, "it is your DUTY to bring these criminals to JUSTICE!"

Shojo has made a career out of manipulating people, and few characters seem so easily manipulated as Miko. It may not have gone smoothly, but I don't think any other member of the Sapphire Guard would have gone at the task with as much dedication and zeal. Not because Miko is better (which maybe she is), but because she tackles every task given to her as though it's a holy crusade against the forces of evil. One can imagine her younger days. "Miko! I need you to pick up a sack of rice. The pantry is running low." "I will not rest until the pantry is bursting with grains!" "No, just one sack should be... yeah, go do that."

[Snake-Aes]

Would the wars have happened without him?

And with him participating, would the wars be shorter and less bloody, due to his professional experience?

This is a fairly common justification mercenaries in fiction use-

"wars are going to be fought- so they might as well be fought by professionals rather than amateurs"
That makes him an evil guy that wants less bloodshed. If you read GirlGenius (I recommend), that'd be the equivalent to Baron Klaus Wulfenbach. One day he looked at the world and everything was a shambling chaos (mad scientists ruling and scattered). He decided to estabilish order and peace his way. He created an empire he rules with an iron fist, and it's better than the alternative. Still makes him evil.

[Gitman00]

Redcloak's mother, however, could tell you that paladins aren't always that patient or discerning.

Heh. I was wondering how long before someone brought that up. I agree, and I think it's general consensus that that was a dark time for the Sapphire Guard. However, The Giant has also mentioned that a lot of the paladins who participated in that attack likely fell for their actions. It wasn't shown "on-screen," because it would have been distracting to the story. With Miko, the Twelve Gods showed up in person because she was a special case. As he puts it, it's like the CEO of the company coming to your cubicle to personally fire you, because you screwed up that bad.

[Deme]

You know, there needs to be a variation of Godwin's law for this forum:
The length of the discussion of the morality of a particular character/event in OotS is proportionate to the the odds that Miko will be mentioned and then steal a thread in that discussion*.

(*"discussion" in this case meaning all discussion across the many threads most morality discussions involve here)

[Warren Dew]

Hinjo saw Miko Miyazaki murder Shojo in cold blood, saw her fall from paladinhood, and still stood between her and Belkar (whom he knew was an evil murderer), and tried talking her down before fighting.

So? Miko was a colleague who had strayed. The order, at the time Miko went after them, were alleged criminals. Big difference there.

Hinjo didn't try "talking down" team evil, which would be no more inapt a comparison.

[Almaseti]

That makes him an evil guy that wants less bloodshed. If you read GirlGenius (I recommend), that'd be the equivalent to Baron Klaus Wulfenbach. One day he looked at the world and everything was a shambling chaos (mad scientists ruling and scattered). He decided to estabilish order and peace his way. He created an empire he rules with an iron fist, and it's better than the alternative. Still makes him evil.

In a bit of a derail, I read GG and disagree about the Baron. He doesn't really rule with an iron fist: he really just makes everyone stop fighting. He tries to keep the people under him happy, and deals with them to a certain degree, and tries to be just and fair, and even allows people to routinely mock him in Heterodyne shows where he's portrayed as a cowardly idiot. Sure, he only has so much tolerance for disobedience, and the punishments he deals are harsh, but he doesn't enjoy doing it and would be nicer if he could.

He gives the hero a lot of trouble, sure, but he has every reason to believe she's actually a genocidal abomination that already nearly destroyed the continent once, and what's more is, he's technically right. If anything, he's MORE selfless than Agatha, the hero, is, because he's devoting his life to making the world safe for the common, helpless people, while Agatha is just trying to survive.

Remember that bit with Gil and Vole? Gil tries to be reasonable and fair, and everyone treats it as weakness. "Nobody ever takes me seriously - unless I shout and threaten like a cut-rate stage villain." he says. (and this is right after he single-handedly destroys an army of giant steampunk robots, too!) And resolves to do what it takes to do what needs to be done, rather than hope that people will be reasonable if he asks nicely.

And then he realizes that it's exactly what his father has been doing the whole time.

So in summary: no, I don't think Klaus is evil at all. Harsh, pragmatic, tyrannical, maybe a bit sadistic if you really piss him off (a la Othar), but evil? No.

And he's especially nothing like Tarquin, who perpetuates warfare for personal gain and hides as the power behind the throne with no regard for the people under his rule. The Baron paints a big target on himself, devotes him life and his sons' to, if not peace and justice then at least safety and stability when he'd really rather be off adventuring.

[DeltaEmil]

No, he wouldn't.

Hinjo saw Miko Miyazaki murder Shojo in cold blood, saw her fall from paladinhood, and still stood between her and Belkar (whom he knew was an evil murderer)He was trying to stop Miko from escaping and doing any other unlawful acts while in his presence. The halfling's already accused and sentenced, and it's not for a fallen paladin to execute anybody.


, and tried talking her down before fighting.
That's because he thought she was confused (and a self-righteous annoying frigid stuck-up holier-than-thou-wannabe), but not evil. He would act different if he and somebody else had been sent to hunt for the Order if he gathered not-so-detailed testimonies who claimed that the Order were a bunch of villains who kill innocents and torture people as well as the strong evil aura.
An evil alignment, to most paladins, is not enough to justify an unprovoked attack, even against a criminal you know is guilty. More to the point, the comic has shown us what Hinjo does when faced with a dangerous criminal. He doesn't attack before trying diplomacy. Hell, he was still trying to talk sense into her while she was attacking him.Regarding the hunt for the Order, detecting the evil alignment was only final proof that the accusations of the flumphs, the blacksmith, the barbarian guild master and the ferret were (appearently) true. Why else would she use detect evil, if not for confirmation?

Miko was still lawful good (as confirmed by Soon), and Hinjo knew that Miko was terribly confused. She jumps to false and absurd conclusions either because of her non-existent ranks in gather information, or because of her bias against the Order of the Stick, who in her narrow world view are somehow allied with the dreaded lich lord Xykon.
Now, if Miko was an evil sadistic psychopath who forced a dwarf to behave like a dog, stomped on the head of harmless creatues, threw animals into the mouth of monsters, had destroyed one of the seals that keeps the world going and had an evil aura befitting an epic villain...

Yes, it would be pragmatic to attack without warning and take out the strongest member of the party quickly. But that's kind of the point of paladinhood. A paladin is not a mercenary who does what's expedient in the name of getting the job done. A paladin does the right thing, the right way, for the right reason (I suspect that's written in some sourcebook, but anyway...). Sometimes that makes his job harder. So be it. Miko trod a very fine line with the way she operated, and eventually slipped to the wrong side of that line.She did warn the Order that she'd attack them if they wouldn't comply with her orders because of their serious crimes (endangering the world and bully or kill civilians), and the Order of the Stick are still a dangerous group who could defeat her with clerical support. Just like real life police officers would arrest criminals having done several heinous crimes akin to terrorism with extreme caution, ordering the people to lay down with their faces to the ground. Of course, sometimes, the police makes grievious mistakes and arrest somebody who's innocent. Or worse, shoot him dead. Miko's the same. Her mistake is to believe that she does everything right and is above the law.

A) Was she right or was she wrong?She was wrong because one of the testimonies (the blacksmith's) lacked specific details that comically would lead to such fatal misunderstandings. :smallbiggrin:

B) Could she very easily have found out she was wrong before attacking?No, she couldn. Nobody could have, because the situation about the Order of the Stick having bizzaro-twins in the Linear Guild was created on purpose to lead to such misunderstandings. Which is then proven again when Elan is mistaken for Nale, and Malak was trying to feed him to an obese lump of cow-eating flesh.

That, or she'd just need a few ranks in gather information instead of asking personaly to avoid these sort of situation. :smalltongue:

[EmeraldPhoenix]

The way I understand it, "Good" and "Evil" are really all about what you would do to achieve your goals, and to what extent you hold yourself to moral standards. Personality doesn't come into it at all. A nice person casually may still be prepared to slaughter the innocent to achieve what they want, (Affably Evil on TV Tropes and I will not link to save your sanity) and a mean person may still be averse to the idea of harming the citizens of a city they have taken over in a war. If you want to be the best in school, a "Good" person would go study hard, and an "Evil" person would be fully prepared to cheat; they have the same goal, it's only a question of what you're willing to do to get to it.

I think the real test of "good" vs "evil" is not what they do to their enemies or friends, but how they treat those not involved in what they're doing. Roy, for instance, is generally nice to all the NPCs he meets, while Nale ties up a blacksmith and kills lots of random people in the city just to lure the OOTS to his plot.

Tarquin is a general in a bloody dictatorship. He is nice and polite to his son and his son's friends, but before he knew Haley's relation to Elan, he was all set up to tell the guards to kill her. He pushed her out a window just to get V to cast her spell.

Miko, even though she was rude and had a flagpole up her butt, still stopped to help the dirt farmers. She was concerned about where they got the gold, thinking it was ill-gotten (which it kind of was, to her standards at least.) She protected Azure city, and even in all the horrible, crazy things she did, she thought she was protecting until the end. She was trying to do good, she was just really, really bad at it.

Actually, I think that kind of perfectly sums up Miko:
She was an unlikeable person, who tried to be good and just sucked at it.

[Gitman00]

He was trying to stop Miko from escaping and doing any other unlawful acts while in his presence. The halfling's already accused and sentenced, and it's not for a fallen paladin to execute anybody.

That's because he thought she was confused (and a self-righteous annoying frigid stuck-up holier-than-thou-wannabe), but not evil. He would act different if he and somebody else had been sent to hunt for the Order if he gathered not-so-detailed testimonies who claimed that the Order were a bunch of villains who kill innocents and torture people as well as the strong evil aura.

:smallsigh:

It's not about alignment. I never argued that Miko is anything other than Lawful Good, because it frankly doesn't matter. She and Hinjo are different people, with very different personalities. Hinjo is polite, Miko is rude. Hinjo is kind, Miko is callous. Hinjo uses diplomacy, Miko uses hack-stabbity-chopchop. The fact is, you have zero evidence that Hinjo would attack the Order; merely your own conjecture. The only evidence we do have is what I have already pointed out, that when Hinjo is faced with a dangerous, violent criminal, he tries diplomacy before resorting to combat.


Regarding the hunt for the Order, detecting the evil alignment was only final proof that the accusations of the flumphs, the blacksmith, the barbarian guild master and the ferret were (appearently) true. Why else would she use detect evil, if not for confirmation?

Take a look at this comic again: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html

She shows up out of nowhere and demands they surrender. Roy asks why three times. The first time she doesn't answer because Elan interrupts. The second time, she doesn't let him finish before taking it as a threat, and uses it as an excuse to attack. The third, mid-combat, she tells him to shut up. These are the actions of someone who showed up wanting to kill someone, and you can't even tell me Hinjo is that trigger-happy. To him, paladinhood means treating everyone fairly, with respect and dignity. Even one's enemies. There's nothing that indicates otherwise, from everything we've seen him do.


She did warn the Order that she'd attack them if they wouldn't comply with her orders because of their serious crimes (endangering the world and bully or kill civilians), and the Order of the Stick are still a dangerous group who could defeat her with clerical support.

She gave them a cursory warning to satisfy the letter of her paladin code; that's all. She never made a serious attempt at a peaceful resolution. Again, look at the comic in question. No one was threatening her. No one had a weapon drawn. Roy asks her what's going on, and she attacks. Sorry, you're not going to convince me that she wasn't out for blood from the beginning.


Just like real life police officers would arrest criminals having done several heinous crimes akin to terrorism with extreme caution, ordering the people to lay down with their faces to the ground. Of course, sometimes, the police makes grievious mistakes and arrest somebody who's innocent. Or worse, shoot him dead. Miko's the same.

Whoa, whoa, wait. Are we arguing what real life cops would do, or what Hinjo would do? Because last time I checked, cops aren't paladins. Although they would still have a lot to answer for if they gunned someone down who wasn't threatening, resisting, or fleeing.


Her mistake is to believe that she does everything right and is above the law.

Here, we are agreed.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

You know, there needs to be a variation of Godwin's law for this forum:
The length of the discussion of the morality of a particular character/event in OotS is proportionate to the the odds that Miko will be mentioned and then steal a thread in that discussion*.

(*"discussion" in this case meaning all discussion across the many threads most morality discussions involve here)
Miko's Law!

And then watch it get misused as you get slammed for comparing X to Miko.

[Gitman00]

Miko's Law!

And then watch it get misused as you get slammed for comparing X to Miko.

Heh. Guilty as charged.

[Delgarde]

First of all, you are confusing 'nice' and 'good', a common mistake.

'Nice' isn't quite the right word for Tarquin either - 'genial', perhaps. Like both Elan and Nale, he's charming in a social setting, but 'nice' is just the face he wears.

[Delgarde]

Well...kinda. If you squint just right, from a generous angle, she was trying to help. Trouble is, her thoughts were not "Hey, I can help," so much as "It shall be I, Miko Miyazaki, who helps."

Nevertheless, her thinking was still to "do what must be done". Wrapped up in delusion and egotism, sure, but that doesn't really change things. Put on the spot, her reaction was the same as O'Chul - the city is lost, Xykon is going to capture the gate, someone needs to destroy it first.

She died doing "the right thing", even if it might not *actually* have been the right thing

[Kish]

I think the real test of "good" vs "evil" is not what they do to their enemies or friends, but how they treat those not involved in what they're doing. Roy, for instance, is generally nice to all the NPCs he meets,

Really? Tell that to Lord Shojo's teleporting wizard. Or the administrator of the Oracle's Test of the Heart.

[Gitman00]

A random thought just occurred to me... Tarquin's name is totally a shout out to Grand Moff Tarkin of A New Hope! Fits with the whole Star Wars theme, no? Not to mention "Darth" Malak Malack. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it's been said before, but I haven't seen it posted anywhere, so I'm still taking credit for the realization. :smalltongue:

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[sihnfahl]

Really? Tell that to Lord Shojo's teleporting wizard. Or the administrator of the Oracle's Test of the Heart.
Or the Oracle himself.

"Dangle ME out of a window, will you, MAMMAL!?"

[Dark Matter]

Redcloak would have died. Xykon on the other hand would regenerate later, as Soon couldn't destroy the phylactery, and the hobgoblin army had already won at this point. The phylactery is protected by the best spells known to the lich lord (an epic level monster) and his goblin slave priest (capable of defeating the high priest of the southern gods), and O-Chul couldn't scratch it. Any other human, be it Miko or the Order of the Stick, would be equally incapable of erasing the threat that is Xykon.Soon can cast two spells on his short otherwise not-very-useful Paladin-spell list which can free O'Chul (Remove Curse-3rd Level, and Break Enchantment-4th). He knew that he'd be coming up against a Lich and his knowledge of Liches in general was pretty impressive so he knew to prepare one or both. He wasn't kidding about telling someone else the details on how to do it.

"Miko and/or O'Chul, take this phylactery to the anti-magic field in the jail and smash it".

Better still, without Xykon and RC, the goblins have nothing we know of which can deal with Soon. Heck, as far as we know they don't even have access to Raise Dead. It's not even clear if any of them know enough of The Plan to go in after the Red Cloak.

So in summary: no, I don't think Klaus is evil at all. Harsh, pragmatic, tyrannical, maybe a bit sadistic if you really piss him off (a la Othar), but evil? No.You're forgetting his "investigations" on lesser sparks which involve removing sections of their brain until they're not-sparks. Othar was an exception because he was an enemy. Ideally Klaus would be able to study his work for years first.

[DeltaEmil]

:smallsigh:

It's not about alignment. I never argued that Miko is anything other than Lawful Good, because it frankly doesn't matter. She and Hinjo are different people, with very different personalities. Hinjo is polite, Miko is rude. Hinjo is kind, Miko is callous. Hinjo uses diplomacy, Miko uses hack-stabbity-chopchop. The fact is, you have zero evidence that Hinjo would attack the Order; merely your own conjecture. The only evidence we do have is what I have already pointed out, that when Hinjo is faced with a dangerous, violent criminal, he tries diplomacy before resorting to combat.And we have the fact that he knew that Miko wasn't an evil mass-murderer who tried to destroy the world at that time, unlike Miko, who had all reasons to believe the Order were a group of deranged psychopaths when she gathered information about them back then. With the limited information and the final proof that one has an evil aura that befits a powerful and cruel villain (and these things are rare), everybody would act like that. Negotiating while you're alone against a dangerous groups of powerful villains gives them the chance of preparing themselves the longer it takes. Especially if you're alone. You can bet that Hinjo would immediately start with a stabity-stab like Miko if the other was a goblin cleric with a crimson mantle, instead of negotiating peacefully. Because at that point, the Order were akin to the chosen prophet of the Dark One.
Then again, goblins are green and have fangs, and other humanoids like cruel mass-murdering halflings don't, so horray for double-standards.

She shows up out of nowhere and demands they surrender. Roy asks why three times. The first time she doesn't answer because Elan interrupts. The second time, she doesn't let him finish before taking it as a threat, and uses it as an excuse to attack. The third, mid-combat, she tells him to shut up. These are the actions of someone who showed up wanting to kill someone, and you can't even tell me Hinjo is that trigger-happy. To him, paladinhood means treating everyone fairly, with respect and dignity. Even one's enemies. There's nothing that indicates otherwise, from everything we've seen him do.She is alone, they are six against one + a intelligent horse (what a good luck for Miko that a storm appears and the dwarven cleric doesn't interfere), her (faulty) investigations show that the Order are dangerous and the infallible seers of Azure City know that the Order was responsible for destroying one of the cosmic keystones, protected by an epic wizard and his powerful enchantments.

She gave them a cursory warning to satisfy the letter of her paladin code; that's all. She never made a serious attempt at a peaceful resolution. Again, look at the comic in question. No one was threatening her. No one had a weapon drawn. Roy asks her what's going on, and she attacks. Sorry, you're not going to convince me that she wasn't out for blood from the beginning.I don't want to. All I'm saying is that she had a (faulty) reason why she behaved that way.
The Order are (appearently) a threat, to the world and to innocent civilians all around, and spellcaster don't need to draw a weapon to start desintegrating people or call flaming pillars from the sky. Without the storm, Durkon might have attacked her for 1-3 rounds, Vaarsuvius could still cast a disintegrate, as the DC would be five points lower and manageable, and Haley would start pin-cushioning Miko from afar.

Whoa, whoa, wait. Are we arguing what real life cops would do, or what Hinjo would do? Because last time I checked, cops aren't paladins. Although they would still have a lot to answer for if they gunned someone down who wasn't threatening, resisting, or fleeing.However, paladins are cops (those of the sapphire guard acting far outside of their jurisdiction, but that's one of the many flaws of the sapphire guard ). Of course, had Miko actually killed Roy during the stormy night, the gods would revoke her paladin-status just as they did when she had slain Shojo. Just like real-world cops would be suspended and arrested by the authorities for such an act, mistake or not.

[Almaseti]

You're forgetting his "investigations" on lesser sparks which involve removing sections of their brain until they're not-sparks. Othar was an exception because he was an enemy. Ideally Klaus would be able to study his work for years first.

He doesn't just do that to any spark he meets, y'know. When he thought Moloch was a Spark, he didn't start chopping into his head, just kept him where he couldn't do much damage and would be safe and productive. It's the ones who won't play by the rules, the dangerous ones, that he experiments on.

(Othar's also an exception because he's kind of a genocidal maniac, if a funny and well-intentioned one, not just because he doesn't like the Baron. Though there's an interesting question: would you consider Othar evil, too?)

[Dark Matter]

He doesn't just do that to any spark he meets, y'know. When he thought Moloch was a Spark, he didn't start chopping into his head, just kept him where he couldn't do much damage and would be safe and productive. It's the ones who won't play by the rules, the dangerous ones, that he experiments on.I think it's implied that the plan was to do it to Moloch. The Baron works with a spark for years to understand how their spark works (i.e. the definition of someone who plays by the rules) before doing his thing. I'll dig up a quote later. :)


She gave them a cursory warning to satisfy the letter of her paladin code; that's all. She never made a serious attempt at a peaceful resolution. Again, look at the comic in question. No one was threatening her. No one had a weapon drawn. Roy asks her what's going on, and she attacks. Sorry, you're not going to convince me that she wasn't out for blood from the beginning. Of course she was out for blood at the start. The issue is, *should* she have?

The OOTS had destroyed a gate. She'd had multiple reports of the OOTS doing vile deeds (thanks to Nale's league of identical twins). Roy hit the radar as major evil.

Everything she knew about them said "they have to die".

[Nimrod's Son]

A random thought just occurred to me... Tarquin's name is totally a shout out to Grand Moff Tarkin of A New Hope! Fits with the whole Star Wars theme, no? Not to mention "Darth" Malak Malack. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it's been said before, but I haven't seen it posted anywhere, so I'm still taking credit for the realization. :smalltongue:
I take it you didn't read the #723 Discussion Thread then; that was pointed out roughly every six posts. Or the entire thread about Star Wars references (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152370).

It's a hell of a stretch to say it's "totally a shout-out", though. Two characters from two different works have similar-sounding names and one has to be a reference to the other? And Malak is even more far-fetched: whenever Rich has referenced SW, he's stuck to the original trilogy, along with one dismissive jab at the prequels courtesy of Julio Scoundrél. There's no reason to even assume that Rich has heard of Darth Malak; he's never made any other kind of nod to the EU before.

Not to mention that when he does reference something, he's pretty darn blatant about it. Giving characters names that happen to sound a bit like something else isn't the same thing.


Why am I not surprised this had to be a Miko thread?
The fact that her surname's in the thread title IS something of a clue, yes.

[sihnfahl]

When he thought Moloch was a Spark, he didn't start chopping into his head, just kept him where he couldn't do much damage and would be safe and productive.
I read that little bit as "well, here we have a spark of unknown heritage and ability who just broke through. I'm not sure what he's like, what he's capable of, and whether or not he's dangerous. So I'm going to put him into a controlled environment and see not only what he creates, but also how much of a threat he is. If he proves himself enough of a threat, he's in a perfect position for me to neutralize him."

[Dark Matter]

Spoiler goes over The Barron's dialog with Otto with links.
Previous 4 pages explain that the Barron has done involuntary brain surgery to destroy "the spark" quite a lot.

O: But My Work! My Mission!

B: Yes, a bonus, that.

O: You Villain!

B: Yes, Yes, Now Normally there would be a lot more tests. You'd have a long, productive career working for me while I studied your habits and patterns.

O: ...But?

B: But I'm afraid that you are far too dangerous. Now look up...

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040109

In a different part in the series we meet one of the Barron's subjects. Presumably he's who the Barron is talking about when he says 'he's getting better about that whole quality of life thing.'

[Zevox]

It's a hell of a stretch to say it's "totally a shout-out", though. Two characters from two different works have similar-sounding names and one has to be a reference to the other? And Malak is even more far-fetched: whenever Rich has referenced SW, he's stuck to the original trilogy, along with one dismissive jab at the prequels courtesy of Julio Scoundrél. There's no reason to even assume that Rich has heard of Darth Malak; he's never made any other kind of nod to the EU before.
I agree about Malack, since we have no reason at this point to believe Rich has played KotOR (though I would say it's a fortunate coincidence given the hefty Star Wars reference theme going on); but I would say that Tarquin's name is likely to be a reference given the aforementioned heavy theme, personally.

Incidentally, what "dismissive jab at the prequels couresy of Julio Scoundèl" are you referring to? :smallconfused:

Zevox

[Nimrod's Son]

I would say that Tarquin's name is likely to be a reference given the aforementioned heavy theme, personally.
It's possible, I guess. It's way too oblique for my tastes though, and given the way Rich tends to shove his references in the reader's face, I'm much more inclined to think it's coincidence.

It's also entirely possible that Tarquin was named as far back as strip 50, before the Star Wars jokes had ever occurred to him.


Incidentally, what "dismissive jab at the prequels couresy of Julio Scoundèl" are you referring to?
Last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html).

[Shale]

Given Elan's character, I wouldn't be surprised if Star Wars jokes were always in the cards for when Tarquin finally appeared, no matter the circumstances. I doubt "Elan, I am your father" was something that just came to Rich recently.

[Nimrod's Son]

I doubt "Elan, I am your father" was something that just came to Rich recently.
Sure, I can well believe that was always in the pipeline. The rest of it, not so much. And there was enough of a theme there already without naming a character a perfectly normal first name that just happens to be similar to the surname of a SW character - a character who, I might add, has nothing whatsoever to do with either the Skywalker family reunion or the whole Jabba the Hutt thing - in order to tenuously keep the references flowing.

If his name was a variation on "Vader" or "Anakin", sure. But this? Nah, I don't buy it.

[Zevox]

It's possible, I guess. It's way too oblique for my tastes though, and given the way Rich tends to shove his references in the reader's face, I'm much more inclined to think it's coincidence.

It's also entirely possible that Tarquin was named as far back as strip 50, before the Star Wars jokes had ever occurred to him.
Given how obvious the "I am your father" line is, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that doing a hefty number of Star Wars jokes when this part of the story finally arrived actually had occurred to him, at least vaguely, even back then.

Edit:

Sure, I can well believe that was always in the pipeline. The rest of it, not so much. And there was enough of a theme there already without naming a character a perfectly normal first name that just happens to be similar to the surname of a SW character - a character who, I might add, has nothing whatsoever to do with either the Skywalker family reunion or the whole Jabba the Hutt thing - in order to tenuously keep the references flowing.
It's not like "I am your father" and the Jabba scene are the only references being made here. In retrospect, the incomplete palace's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0717.html) ongoing construction resembles the incomplete portions of the second Death Star, and I'd wager that Malack's robes are deliberately supposed to resemble the cloaked outfits worn by every Sith save Vader, especially Palpatine.


Last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html).
:smallconfused: That qualifies as a "dismissive jab at the prequels?" Really? Just seems more a generic Star Wars reference to me.

Zevox

[Nimrod's Son]

To me, "You're better off not knowing" implies that once the concept of Padawans and all that came with it was introduced into Star Wars, the whole thing went downhill.

[Zevox]

To me, "You're better off not knowing" implies that once the concept of Padawans and all that came with it was introduced into Star Wars, the whole thing went downhill.
I don't know - given I've never heard anyone complain about the concept of Padawans itself before (sensibly, given it's just another word for "apprentice"), that seems a bit tenuous to me. I'd expect an actual jab at the prequels to pick on something people actually complained about, like Jar Jar.

Zevox

[Nimrod's Son]

It's not the concept of Padawans that's the problem. It's more like, "You don't know what 'Padawan' means? Good. That means you haven't seen The Phantom Menace. For your own sake, keep it that way."

I can't think of any reason for him to say, "You're better off not knowing," if it wasn't to mean that.

[CN the Logos]

The way I understand it, "Good" and "Evil" are really all about what you would do to achieve your goals, and to what extent you hold yourself to moral standards. Personality doesn't come into it at all. A nice person casually may still be prepared to slaughter the innocent to achieve what they want, (Affably Evil on TV Tropes and I will not link to save your sanity) and a mean person may still be averse to the idea of harming the citizens of a city they have taken over in a war. If you want to be the best in school, a "Good" person would go study hard, and an "Evil" person would be fully prepared to cheat; they have the same goal, it's only a question of what you're willing to do to get to it.

I think the real test of "good" vs "evil" is not what they do to their enemies or friends, but how they treat those not involved in what they're doing. Roy, for instance, is generally nice to all the NPCs he meets, while Nale ties up a blacksmith and kills lots of random people in the city just to lure the OOTS to his plot.

Tarquin is a general in a bloody dictatorship. He is nice and polite to his son and his son's friends, but before he knew Haley's relation to Elan, he was all set up to tell the guards to kill her. He pushed her out a window just to get V to cast her spell.

Miko, even though she was rude and had a flagpole up her butt, still stopped to help the dirt farmers. She was concerned about where they got the gold, thinking it was ill-gotten (which it kind of was, to her standards at least.) She protected Azure city, and even in all the horrible, crazy things she did, she thought she was protecting until the end. She was trying to do good, she was just really, really bad at it.

Actually, I think that kind of perfectly sums up Miko:
She was an unlikeable person, who tried to be good and just sucked at it.

Seconding as hard as I can.

As a psychology student, one of the things that bugs me about the morality debate is this idea that an "evil" person is one who has no real friends, no one they care about, and they'll use and betray anyone without exception. Now, there are people like that; they're called sociopaths, but the majority of people the average person would call evil are not sociopaths. They have people they care about, who typically get a break from the worst of their nastiness. Evil is not about one's behavior towards a few particular people, it's about one's interaction with society in general.

My point is that while the Giant himself has talked about how monolithic evil is unrealistic, in real life, evil is seldom monolithic even within an individual. To give a hypothetical example: a guy can go out and donate money and food to an orphanage because he sincerely empathizes with the plight of those kids looking for a home, and on his walk home beat a woman to death with a hammer because he doesn't like the way she's dressed. The dude is evil regardless of his charity, because even if he does more good work than his victims did, he's the sort of person who has no problem breaking society down by murdering people he doesn't like, and there's no guarantee he won't turn on you or someone you love next. But he really likes those kids, and he hopes they find a nice home. People like this exist.

Tarquin is probably something similar, though less outright murderous; he seems to like his son, he's got what appears to be a friend in Malack, but as far as the world in general goes, he doesn't seem to care. He probably wouldn't murder Elan in cold blood based on what I've seen so far, but he can go out and start a war for profit because none of the people that are dying or losing their homes in it are people he really cares about. The last wife dying under mysterious circumstances could be a signal that he's worse than we've seen so far, though it could just as easily have been a one off joke, or it could be a reference to the dangers of living in an evil society; he was apparently pretty fair in his dealings with Elan's mom.


A random thought just occurred to me... Tarquin's name is totally a shout out to Grand Moff Tarkin of A New Hope! Fits with the whole Star Wars theme, no? Not to mention "Darth" Malak Malack. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it's been said before, but I haven't seen it posted anywhere, so I'm still taking credit for the realization. :smalltongue:

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.


[Insert long debate over whether this is right or not here.]

Am I seriously the only one here who's heard of Tarquin the Proud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus)? Last of the seven kings of Rome, got overthrown and replaced by a republic because he was a jerk? Come on guys, he's not that obscure. I didn't think he was, anyway. There were a few famous Tarquins in early Roman history, and as I recall they were mostly jerks, though the degree of jerkiness varied. "Tarkin" is probably meant to be a futuristic-sounding adaptation of a name that already had a historical association with being a Lawful Evil @$$hat.

And variants on "Malak" (Malak, Malik, Malach, however you want to spell it) are fairly common as a given name in both Hebrew and Arabic. It means "angel," and I believe it was originally used to mean "messenger," as did the Greek word we get the English word "angel" from.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

G. I. JOE!!!

[Darcy]

The historical Tarquins were mentioned earlier, but they don't fit the Star Wars theme as well. I wonder if Grand Moff Tarkin was named after one of them?

[hamishspence]

As a psychology student, one of the things that bugs me about the morality debate is this idea that an "evil" person is one who has no real friends, no one they care about, and they'll use and betray anyone without exception. Now, there are people like that; they're called sociopaths, but the majority of people the average person would call evil are not sociopaths. They have people they care about, who typically get a break from the worst of their nastiness. Evil is not about one's behavior towards a few particular people, it's about one's interaction with society in general.

My point is that while the Giant himself has talked about how monolithic evil is unrealistic, in real life, evil is seldom monolithic even within an individual. To give a hypothetical example: a guy can go out and donate money and food to an orphanage because he sincerely empathizes with the plight of those kids looking for a home, and on his walk home beat a woman to death with a hammer because he didn't like the way she was dressed. The dude is evil regardless of his charity, because even if he does more good work than his victims did, he's the sort of person who has no problem breaking society down by murdering people he doesn't like, and there's no guarantee he won't turn on you or someone you love next. But he really likes those kids, and he hopes they find a nice home. People like this exist.

It might be even narrower than that- a character might be kind and empathic toward most people, and cruel and vicious toward people of a particular "category"- a bigot, in short.

In Savage Species (D&D splatbook) it mentions (on page 102) that evil people compartmentalize- behaving well toward some people, badly toward others.


Evil characters are still people. Even bad guys have feelings, emotions, and loyalties. This means that it is just as possible to play a well-rounded character who happens to be evil as one who happens to be neutral or good. An evil character or creature can be a a loving parent (such as Grendel's mother), a faithful spouse, a loyal friend, or a devoted servant without diminishing their villainy in any way, this mearely reflects they way in which people compartmentalize their lives and the fact that they behave in different ways toward different groups.

There is more to evil alignment, than just what the PHB says:


Some creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

These are two of the possible variants of evil- the compassionless, and the active pursuer of evil. However, they are not the only variants. If you take the splatbooks into account, you can have evil characters of a wide range of personality types- including those that are compassionate in certain ways.


Am I seriously the only one here who's heard of Tarquin the Proud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus)? Last of the seven kings of Rome, got overthrown and replaced by a republic because he was a jerk? Come on guys, he's not that obscure. I didn't think he was, anyway. There were a few famous Tarquins in early Roman history, and as I recall they were mostly jerks, though the degree of jerkiness varied. "Tarkin" is probably meant to be a futuristic-sounding adaptation of a name that already had a historical association with being a Lawful Evil @$$hat.

It was mentioned a few weeks ago- when his name first appeared.

[Nimrod's Son]

Am I seriously the only one here who's heard of Tarquin the Proud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus)? Last of the seven kings of Rome, got overthrown and replaced by a republic because he was a jerk? Come on guys, he's not that obscure.
Thanks, we've heard of him. He was mentioned like fifty billion times when the comic first went up. I didn't repeat it again because I've got no reason to think it's a reference to him either, and therefore it's got nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Also, got an example of someone who beat a woman to death with a hammer for the way she looked, whilst on his way home from donating to an orphanage he felt desperately sorry for? 'Cause that strikes me as a shockingly unlikely scenario. But apparently these people exist, so perhaps I should be more vigilant.

[hamishspence]

Champions of Ruin has a similar type of character trope:

Just Plain Mean

The character is incapable of controlling his violent or anti-social impulses. He might be kind, intelligent, and perfectly capable of completing a task, holding a conversation, and working successfully at a craft. But when something sets him off, there is no telling what he'll do. There is no way of knowing from one day to the next what will ignite his fury; he usually blames his outbursts on others and doesn't accept that he has done anything wrong, nor does he feel regret or remorse.

[Nimrod's Son]

That's just fluff text though, that's not what I meant.

You can't really claim "people like this exist" if your example is something that no one has done in the history of ever. I mean, if someone had challenged me to think of something that is perfectly possible to do but no one has ever even attempted, I'm not sure I could come up with a better answer than that hammer-wielding philanthropist idea. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

The book example was to show that at least some D&D designers recognize the concept- and have given it a name.

As to whether there are real people like it- I don't know. However this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_explosive_disorder

may be a possible example.

[KoboldRevenge]

good v evil is a main theme for almost any book, comic, movie,play, whatever
and it's hard to avoid not making it that way.

[Mr. Scaly]

I don't really consider Miko and Tarquin comparable contrasts in the same way. Miko was Lawful Stupid. Tarquin is Affably Evil.

[FeanorFireHeart]

I disagree about the name Tarquin being a SW reference. He seems more like a vader type as general and adviser. He was also a would be emperor/king and the last king of rome before the republic (and later empire) was Tarquin which would fit with the story of him becoming his own king and then dethroned. The next thing I could think of is the opera "Tarquin" which was a throw back to hitler (not to go miko's law here but the composer specified this) which would show the lawful evil quality of the character...or Rich just used a random name he saw and liked. :smallwink:

as for the name malak, its a common fantasy name so I wouldnt put too much stock in it (even before KOTOR)

as for miko, she was socially inept which is what made her "lawful stupid" and she was probably the most self righteous character I ever came across which is why she killed old king or as I like to call him king classic.

[rakkoon]

(skipped middle pages)

I was kind of waiting for Traquin to betray them but this thread has made me realise that is not compulsary. He might be evil and still help them.
Fun