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Duskranger
2010-05-20, 05:12 PM
Oke guys,

I have one question I need the best Gestalt build there is with as basis the following rules:

All official WoTC books 3.5 allowed except the BoED and BoVD.

And the character must be generated with 32 point buy.

Allready my thanks for your help,

Duskranger.

JasonP
2010-05-20, 05:15 PM
It's funny that I'm seeing this more and more on here. Here's a great link I just found to help some friends come up with ideas for their characters. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870266/Gestalt_Resource,_the_combos_Wizards_dont_want_you _to_know?pg=1

mikeejimbo
2010-05-20, 05:17 PM
It's actually not optimal, but I've always wanted to play a Wizard/Archivist.

(It suffers from action economy and such, and could probably be beefed up a bit.)

Yorrin
2010-05-20, 05:17 PM
There are dozen of possible answers, all based on how much cheese you're willing to put up with and what sort of play-style you've got. Give us some more details so we can build with some sort of direction...

Duskranger
2010-05-20, 05:28 PM
No Flaws or traits

Complete build, with abilities please. As cheesyness, not too cheesy bit of cheese is allowed.

No LA or templates.

It must be quite high in opti-fu.

It starts at lvl 1 by the way, even though I would like to see the complete build I will not be able to use it as for now (unless I convince the guy to start from lvl 5 off course).

I'm honestly more of a straight head first into combat guy, but am planning to play it safe and good. So that's why I need your help.

Random NPC
2010-05-20, 05:40 PM
Mix a class with good active abilities, mix a class with good passive abilities

try to find synergy in a stat or two, try to find a way for one class compensate the other.

Bingo :smallbiggrin:


in other words, you are asking for something so general it's actually a bit hard to go wrong

Zeta Kai
2010-05-20, 05:45 PM
IMO, the "best" gestalt combos are those that combine classes that depend on the same ability scores. A Wizard needs a high Int & a decent Con, & so does a Psion, so a Wiz/Psi would be a good combo. A Rogue needs a high Dex & a decent Int, while a Factotum needs a high Int & a decent Dex, so a Rog/Fac is an okay combo. A Barbarian needs a high Str & a decent Con, while a Cleric needs a high Wis & a decent Cha (or Con), so that would make a bad combo. IMO, of course.

Mando Knight
2010-05-20, 05:49 PM
There's the Monk//Druid, which covers the weaknesses of the Monk with the awesomeness of the Druid, while making the awesomeness of the Druid more awesome with the abilities of the Monk. Pretty SAD on just Wisdom (though Con is good, too, since it'll boost your HP), moves lightning-fast, and uses Wild Shape to turn into a kung-fu panda.

If playing by alignment restrictions, you'd have to be Lawful Neutral, though, so if that's a turnoff...

Random NPC
2010-05-20, 05:50 PM
IMO, the "best" gestalt combos are those that combine classes that depend on the same ability scores. A Wizard needs a high Int & a decent Con, & so does a Psion, so a Wiz/Psi would be a good combo. A Rogue needs a high Dex & a decent Int, while a Factotum needs a high Int & a decent Dex, so a Rog/Fac is an okay combo. A Barbarian needs a high Str & a decent Con, while a Cleric needs a high Wis & a decent Cha (or Con), so that would make a bad combo. IMO, of course.

Strangely enough, I would go Wizard/Factotum and Psion/Rogue. Or maybe just Int-Caster/Factotum.

Yorrin
2010-05-20, 05:51 PM
Well, keeping to minimum cheese, I'd say something like:

Ogre (savage species) 6/Barbarian 1/War Hulk 10/x 3

with a straight Psychic Warrior 20.

Use the Lion Spirit Totem from Complete Champion on the Barbarian level to get Pounce, and for feats you'll want Power Attack, Leap Attack, etc (find any ubercharger build on these board for an idea of stuff you're looking for).

For moderate cheese, make that "x" a Hulking Hurler. Your damage goes up pretty quickly, essentially becoming capped by the largest, heaviest thing around.

Of course there's always something simpler like a

Warblade 20|Psychic Warrior 20

Where you use the PsyWar to get uber-tons of passives for your maneuvers to love. Not nearly as powerful as the first build, but easier to wrap one's head around.


Of course you can always combine the non-PsyWar elements of both of the above. For non-caster optimization most stuff boils down to ubercharger builds or martial adepts (or both). So you're best off searching for such builds on these boards and combining your favorite aspects of each.

Eternal Drifter
2010-05-20, 05:56 PM
I've never played Gestalt before, but there's one class combination I've been iching to try: Monk//Fighter

The Monk has gotten the short end of the combat stick so often on the forums, much like the Fighter. The fact that once you stop taking Monk levels, you can't go back and take more really throws a wench in my plans.

However... in Gestalt, take both classes, and you have a good character in theory. Good with all weapons, moderate skills, and a lot of feats.

Be a Kobold, however, and focus your feats and skills in the right directions... and then start taking levels in The Initiatite of the Draconic Mysteries (Draconicon) instead of Fighter and you really gain power. More power than you would expect a mere Kobold to have!:smallbiggrin:

Gnorman
2010-05-20, 05:57 PM
IMO, the "best" gestalt combos are those that combine classes that depend on the same ability scores. A Wizard needs a high Int & a decent Con, & so does a Psion, so a Wiz/Psi would be a good combo. A Rogue needs a high Dex & a decent Int, while a Factotum needs a high Int & a decent Dex, so a Rog/Fac is an okay combo. A Barbarian needs a high Str & a decent Con, while a Cleric needs a high Wis & a decent Cha (or Con), so that would make a bad combo. IMO, of course.

I must respectfully disagree with some of the points here. Wiz/Psi would not be a great combo (outside of massive Synchronicity/Hustle/Schism abuse).

Two main gestalt rules that should always be considered:

1. It's the (action) economy, stupid!

Meaning that no matter how many spells you get by being a Sorc/Favored Soul (or any other dual casting combination), you still get the same number of actions as a non gestalt character. So you want the ability to abuse the action economy somehow. Factotum is a prime example of this.

2. One side active, one side passive

Because of rule #1, having one side of the gestalt give you a lot of passive benefits is actually quite helpful. Try to find classes that shore up weaknesses in your active side - a Wizard has two weak saves, poor BAB, and few skills. Oddly enough, gestalting one with a Ranger shores up all of those problems (not that I highly recommend that combo, as it adds MAD). Monk actually becomes tolerable.

Some of my favorite combos:

Wizard//Factotum
Warblade//Psion
Monk//Ardent
Cloistered Cleric//Paladin variant with the Serenity feat
Monk (or Ninja)//Druid

Yorrin
2010-05-20, 06:00 PM
...really throws a wench in my plans...

This is totally becoming a colloquialism for the next character I play...

IonDragon
2010-05-20, 06:04 PM
I think a really cool one would be:

Druid//Monk (1-2), Barbarian (1), Rogue (a few)

But you'd have to get your GM to hand wave alignment restrictions though, and I don't know if it's really optimal. It damn sure would be fun. Alternatively throw in more Barbarian or Fighter for BAB.

Dr.Epic
2010-05-20, 06:17 PM
I think these would be pretty powerful:

fighter/cleric
fighter/sorcerer
cleric/sorcerer

Jyrnn
2010-05-20, 06:22 PM
I had tremendous success with a gestalt Knight/Dragon Shaman. Liberal use of Races of the Dragon and Dragon magic for draconic variants (like dragonscale husk) made for a useful and fun tank.

A "Best combo" usually usually involves some sort of caster though. If you like Psionics then an Ardent/PsyWarrior could be neat. 3/4 BAB and wisdom as the casting stat for both classes.

Ramza00
2010-05-20, 06:24 PM
If you know how to build it, Wizard/Psion, Cleric/Ardent, or Druid/Ardent are some of the most powerful builds out there. Due to some psionics powers adding to the total number of actions you can do per round.


Level 1

Synchronicity (Complete Psionic p103): Ready an action and use it when you choose.

At first glance this doesn't seem like a good power, you lose a standard action to cast this power but gain a standard action in response (no net gain or loss with the exception of you losing 1 pp). That is wrong, THIS IS AN AWESOME POWER, for when combine with other powers/feats you gain additional standard actions. For example if you use Linked Power with it you can cast your Main Power X and next round you get a free standard action to cast another Power Y and all you needed was the linked power feat and 1pp above what Main Power X cost. Or you can use a metamagic rod of quicken to cast this power as a swift action (and since Synchronicity is a 1st level power the rod is damn cheap.)

Level 3

Sense Danger (Magic of Eberron p106): Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed, and manifest another power as an immediate action during first round of combat.

This is psionic foresight and contingency (with steroids) all rolled up in one, You cast this power which has duration of 10 mins/level. During that duration you are not treated as not having your dex modifer at the beginning of combat. Furthermore you can cast a power with power point cost of 1pp or more if you augment it. Guess what awesome power is 1pp, Synchronicity. Guess what Synchronicity does for 1pp you get to cast any other power you know that has a manifesting time of 1 standard action. In other words you always get to act first (when under the duration of Sense Danger). Oh it gets even more nasty, as soon as you use your readied action which Synchronicity provides you are no longer flat footed for you have acted in combat. Thus you can now use Anticipatory Strike (blowing another immediate action, thus you don't get one the next round of combat), and have a full round of actions before your enemy gets to act. Finally under transparency an incantatrix could use Metamagic Effect to make this power last all day under persistent spell (since the power doesn't discharge)

Level 4

Schism: Your partitioned mind can manifest lower level powers.

More actions are good. When your second mind can manifest a power have it choose Synchronicity, thus your main mind now manifests the power and thus you can use your full manifester level with schism.

Level 5

Anticipatory Strike (Complete Psionic p78): Take your action out of initiative order.

Some people call this psionic celerity. As an immediate action you can move your initiative out of order (but only once a round). Only downside is that you can't be flat footed, well foresight or the more awesome psionic power sense danger fixes that. So for 9 power points and an immediate action you get to act immediately (with no downsides like being dazed). Remember you can combine this with Sense Danger+ Synchronicity during the first round of combat.

Level 6

Temporal Acceleration A: Your time frame accelerates for 1 round.

Psionic Timestop, enough said

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/23144993/Psion_in_an_Cold_Hard_Null_World&post_num=9#410128229


Consider this level 9 build

*Illuminan race with Naen Hoon sigils (allow you to use turn attempts to power metamagic)
*Transformation Domain, Free Domain, and Knowledge Domain
*Spontaneous Transformation Domain
*Mantles are Time, Magic, Fate, Mental Power, and one free
*You add Synchronicity to the Time Mantle, You add Sense Danger to the Fate Mantle, and You Add Schism to the Mental Power Mantle. This is legal see here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

Feats
1 Extend Spell
3 Persistent Spell
6 Linked Power
9 Assume Supernatural Ability (Choker's Quickness)


Due to the Magic Mantle you powers are treated as spells. Allowing you to use Naenhoon to persist two very important powers, Sense Danger (you know always go first), and Schism (you now get a free standard action per round. Schism combine with Synchronicity means your partioned mind passes his turn to the main mind who uses his full manifester level.

During the surprise round of combat you change into the form of a choaker. Due to assume supernatural ability feat (or you can sub metamorphic transfer), you can now use the choker's supernatural quickness ability. You nowgain an extra standard action per round, and you still have an extra 2 standard actions during the surprise round due to persistent schism+synchronicity and the choker's supernatural quickness.
-----------------------------------
Always go first, 2 standard actions during a surprise round, followed by 3 standard actions after the surprise round.

Your level 12 feat is psicrystal affinity, your psicrystal gains feats, have his 12th level feat be martial study and pick up white raven's tactics. You get an extra round of 3 more actions due to your psicrystal.
-----------------------------------
Of course don't piss off your DM too much: smallwink: or he will do the same thing to you. Having a bbeg always go first, and having 2 standard actions in a surprise round is the equivalent of rocks fall, but without the DM saying you lose.

Chaelos
2010-05-20, 07:00 PM
My personal favorite: Monk 20//Wizard/X Arcane Caster Prestige Classes.

Take Carmendine Monk feat to be truly SAD.

Have all the formidable defenses of the Monk (passive abilities--some of the best in the game, for my money) with the offensive powerhouse that is the Wizard (best active abilities in the game, as far as I'm concerned).

Cleric//Monk is also very powerful, due to the Wisdom synergy, but I'm not much of a Divine Magic fan.

IonDragon
2010-05-20, 07:14 PM
Cleric//Monk is also very powerful, due to the Wisdom synergy, but I'm not much of a Divine Magic fan.

Except that you don't get Monk AC boost when armored, so there's not really any synergy there, and you can get that from a one level dip. The Monk's Spell Resistance doesn't come up until level 13, and the spell Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellresistance.htm) is more powerful, and available at level 9. The Monk capstone ability's primary benefit is making you succeptible to Banishment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/banishment.htm). Admittedly you get good saves, but Cleric already has good Fort and Will, so Rogue would get you good Ref as well as skills and Sneak Attack.

Deastorm
2010-05-20, 07:22 PM
I once played a bard/warblade. Insanely fun, most self aggrandizing character I've ever played.

Lord Vampyre
2010-05-20, 07:30 PM
I haven't looked at my 3.5 books in awhile, but I've always wanted to try a Beguiler/Ranger. Unfortunately, there really isn't any synergy with the stats.

subject42
2010-05-20, 08:31 PM
My money is on Factotum//Wizard. It lets you wreck the action economy of the game, much to your DM's dismay.

If you can convince your DM that the various alignment restrictions will fly, you can also have a pile of fun with Cleric (using Dynamic Priest) / Malconvoker // Bard. You end up with an absurdly strong summoner that will buff his summons into extremely powerful challenges.

HunterOfJello
2010-05-20, 08:41 PM
If you're interested in a melee badass, i'd pick a ToB class and then another class that could mesh well with it. Crusader/Cleric , Warblade/Factotum Warblade/Archivist , Warblade/Wizard , Swordsage/Cloistered Cleric , Swordsage/Any Wisdom based caster

the lists go on and on.

if you want pure melee then grab Warblade or Swordsage and Fighter for bonus feats.

Physics_Rook
2010-05-20, 09:08 PM
A little known but very cool combination would be a gestalt with a Magic of Incarnum class.

Given that a good Constitution score is going to be a given no matter what class you settle on, you know that a MoI class always has a good chance of lowering your M.ultiple A.ttribute D.ependancy (it took me forever to figure out what MAD stood for).

In addition, many of the benefits of MoI classes are passive (just shaping the base soulmeld can give you a boost), plus you can shift around which of its benefits is the most powerful (via reallocation of essentia).

If you used it as a passive class, and focused your feats on your primary class, you could nab some really neat special bonuses and special abilities. :smallsmile:

Just think of the neat RP moments you could have if you went Factotum // Totemist, the Beast Scholar!:smallbiggrin:

Starscream
2010-05-20, 09:26 PM
There's the Monk//Druid, which covers the weaknesses of the Monk with the awesomeness of the Druid, while making the awesomeness of the Druid more awesome with the abilities of the Monk. Pretty SAD on just Wisdom (though Con is good, too, since it'll boost your HP), moves lightning-fast, and uses Wild Shape to turn into a kung-fu panda.

I'm a fan of this one as well. Monk may be the weakest of the core classes, but compliments other classes well in gestalt. Druid is particularly potent, as you retain your Wisdom to AC, increased speed, ki strike, and ability to Flurry while wild shaped.

Also had some fun with a druid//ninja.

playswithfire
2010-05-20, 09:30 PM
Joining in with those who recommend ToB/synergy class as among the best combos:
Barbarian//Swordsage is a favorite of mine
Warblade//Psion and/or Crusader//Wilder are also nice

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 02:06 AM
Savage species is not available, it's 3.0. The further ideas do not really give me an ultra powerfull build and such.On the other hand I agfree with some of them.

Critical
2010-05-21, 02:16 AM
Hmmm, Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 5//Warblade 7/Factotum 3/Eternal Blade 10 is a solid, pretty much Int SAD build. If there are no multiclass penalties, use gray elf, if there are - half-elf.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 02:17 AM
And the books you got them from Critical?

Critical
2010-05-21, 02:22 AM
Swiftlade is online-only (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), Abjurant Champion is from Complete Mage, Factotum's from Dungeonscape, Warblade and Eternal Blade are from Tome of Battle. :smallcool: Though, if you want 9 level spells by level 20, then go Swiftblade 9 instead of 10.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 02:25 AM
Swiftlade is online-only (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), Abjurant Champion is from Complete Mage, Factotum's from Dungeonscape, Warblade and Eternal Blade are from Tome of Battle. :smallcool: Though, if you want 9 level spells by level 20, then go Swiftblade 9 instead of 10.

And how's the survivability at lvl 1, I mean if you are alone fighting against force/dungeoncrawling/showing the power of gestalt.

Critical
2010-05-21, 02:28 AM
And how's the survivability at lvl 1

Well, since you have Wizard casting and d12 HD, it should be pretty solid. Also, get Expeditious Dodge from RotW instead of the ordinary one for the purposes of Swiftblade pre-req's.

EDIT: Sorry, I totally screwed up here, it's Warblade 7/Swashbuckler 3. My bad. :smallbiggrin: That way, you get Int x2 to damage.

EDITEDIT:
I mean if you are alone fighting against force/dungeoncrawling/showing the power of gestalt.
If you are alone and fighting at level 1... Hmm, it's tough, but something definitely can be done.
Obviously, you want to be a Focused Specialist Transmuter. That way, you can turn into an x-headed hydra and use your Int x2 to damage to the max, get more haste and all other sorts of goodies more often.
So, what do we do - we buff ourselves with Shield, Mage Armor, Enlarge Person, perhaps, Protection from Evil, and, probably, Combat Readiness. Now we make sure we win Initiative, so we use Nerveskitter. Then we use Charging Minotaur. Next turn, we use Sudden Leap and charge again, since we have Mobility(via giving up Scribe Scroll from UA Wizard ACF), AC on AoO should be pretty high, and charge again. When it's expended, you can use Benign Transposition with your familiar, using Blockade to prevent charging at you, and charge again next turn... Or you could just grease your enemies and do the hitting. :smallbiggrin:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-21, 04:16 AM
Archivist//Factotum

Get Font of Inspiration for all your feats. Spam actions, which will generally be an awesome cleric or wizard spell one or two spell levels earlier. Alternatively throw in a level of Cloistered Cleric at level 2, get knowledge devotion, swap some Font feats to get to Greater Manyshot, and become an uber-Archervist. Nab all the great ranger archery spells, auto-stun your opponent, swift-cast Hunter's Eye, then go to town Sneak Attacking with all those actions.

Artificer//Warlock

Magnificent party support, all-day power, and of course taking 10 on UMDing your crazy magic items. Again, solid at level 1.

Warblade//Wizard/Incantatrix

Some say that Warblade//Wizard doesn't work well because both sides are 'active.' Not necessarily true! Go incantatrix to persist every personal buff known to wizard kind at the beginning of the day, then go to town as an uberbuffed polymorphed monstrosity with full Warblade IL/maneuvers. Those spell slots not used for persisted or in-combat buffs simply add to your versatility.

Icewraith
2010-05-21, 04:26 AM
Gestalt also makes a lot of class combinations and weird prestige classes much better.

Consider the Bard 20//Crusader or Warblade 4/LT Barb1/Dread Pirate 10/Crusader or Warblade 5

Somatic Weaponry
Melodic Casting
Quick Draw
Weapon Finesse
Song of the White Raven

At high level you get a boat of pirates to command that you can buff with the level 1 White Raven Stance to give a bonus on charge attacks equal to your initiator level (you've had this since level one). You could also dip some Warblade/Crusader on the Bard side, sacrificing some of your bardsong boosts to get 9th-level maneuvers and War Master's Charge, which allows your party plus whatever crew members you've brought along to immediately all charge an opponent, not provoking AOOs or interfering with each other, grant each other attack bonuses and a flat +50 to damage.

You can start inspire courage or inspire heroics as a swift action and gain the ability to give your crew a morale bonus on attack and damage rolls that tacks on to your inspire courage ability.

And you can activate the white raven War Leader's Charge line of abilities as you get them (at level three minimum) for an acrobatic charging, two-weapon fighting, full attack (5th level or earlier, depending on when you take the dip) with ridiculous bonuses to attack and damage.

Oh yes, and you get full Bard casting, which can be quite handy.

Greenish
2010-05-21, 04:31 AM
Swordsage//Wildshape ranger/MoMF/Warshaper.

Be a really freaky Kung Fu Panda.

2xMachina
2010-05-21, 05:29 AM
And here I thought it was for NED.

Druid//Totemist/Warshaper. Share soulmeld.

That's 2 shredders.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 05:31 AM
Nope, for NED I will make my own gestalts. This is just too show someone the power of an optimised build. My crusader//SS Druid ain't optimized

2xMachina
2010-05-21, 05:35 AM
Huh, I'm kinda tempted to ask for NED op help myself.

I've been building my own so far though.

Low lvl solo endurance at is so far away from the normal optimization...

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 05:37 AM
I like:

Monk 2 / Ardent 15 (tashalatora) / Deepwarden 2 / Fist of the Forest 1 // Druid 20

Use Ardent to establish Action economy (schism, Synchronicity, etc)

Use Linked Power, Earth Power, Metapower, along with Psicrystal containment, and give your psicrystal wild talent (so it can focus itself).

Now, you link Bestow Power to Vigor, and pay 1pp to gain 2pp. Now you can fully recover PP between fights.

Get Deepwarden / Fist of the Forest as soon as you can.

You'll have Wis to AC, Con to AC twice, Dex to AC, and Wildshape for Nat Armor. You should be able to hit 60-70 AC with Wilding Armor (melds into form when wildshaped, meaning you're not wearing the armor, though it provides its bonus). You'll have Evasion, good saves, Fullcasting, and the ability to gain additional actions in combat via schism, synchronicity, and Anticipatory Strike.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 05:39 AM
Huh, I'm kinda tempted to ask for NED op help myself.

I've been building my own so far though.

Low lvl solo endurance at is so far away from the normal optimization...

I find it not okay to ask for the NED. Besides I think the next thing I will use in the NED is a DragonBorn Water Orc Totemist//Warblade (or crusader, but I think Warblade)

draco_nite
2010-05-21, 05:56 AM
Make a doppelganger, then gestalt every racial paragon class.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 05:57 AM
No LA, no SS. So doppelganger is not allowed. And I do not think you are serious with that remark.

draco_nite
2010-05-21, 06:01 AM
No LA, no SS. So doppelganger is not allowed. And I do not think you are serious with that remark.

Oh, then gestalt Commoner with Aristocrat. You can't go wrong there.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 06:02 AM
Oh, then gestalt Commoner with Aristocrat. You can't go wrong there.

Are you serious, give me the biggest plusses from this than?

draco_nite
2010-05-21, 06:02 AM
To be serious, though, I'd try Monk/Psychic Warrior. They both rely on the same stats, you'd essentially be a Fist of Zuoken that could get 6th level powers.

Tytalus
2010-05-21, 06:05 AM
Hmmm, Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 5//Warblade 7/Factotum 3/Eternal Blade 10 is a solid, pretty much Int SAD build. If there are no multiclass penalties, use gray elf, if there are - half-elf.

Unless you are house-ruling, this is not a valid gestalt build since you are taking two PrCs at the same time.

Machiavellian
2010-05-21, 11:00 AM
I suggest:

Human Warblade 2/Swordsage 5/Human Paragon 3/Master of the Nine 5//Abjurer 7/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 3

Half-Elf Ardent 15/Arch Psion 5//Diviner or Abjurer 5/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 5

Strongheart Halfling or Whisper Gnome CotW Ranger 7/Scout 3/Order of the Bow Initiate 10//Spellthief 3/Sorcerer 7/Unseen Seer 7/Arcane Trickster 3

and my personal favorite: Fallen Astral Deva Monster 20//Paladin of Tyranny 10/Blackguard 10

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 11:21 AM
I suggest:

Human Warblade 2/Swordsage 5/Human Paragon 3/Master of the Nine 5//Abjurer 7/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 3

Half-Elf Ardent 15/Arch Psion 5//Diviner or Abjurer 5/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 5

Strongheart Halfling or Whisper Gnome CotW Ranger 7/Scout 3/Order of the Bow Initiate 10//Spellthief 3/Sorcerer 7/Unseen Seer 7/Arcane Trickster 3

and my personal favorite: Fallen Astral Deva Monster 20//Paladin of Tyranny 10/Blackguard 10

I must agree with somebody above here. You can only have one prestige class at a time. And no monsterclasses are allowed. Unless you can show me the racial progressions in a 3.5 book

Machiavellian
2010-05-21, 11:26 AM
I must agree with somebody above here. You can only have one prestige class at a time. And no monsterclasses are allowed. Unless you can show me the racial progressions in a 3.5 book

I see...

and what does savage species count as?

and for one PrC, its easier now...


Human Wizard 20//Ardent 10/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8

or

Half-Elf Ranger 10/Scout 10//Avenging Swift Druid 10/Seeker of the Misty Isles 10

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 11:26 AM
Savage species is a 3.0 book and is counted most of the time as 3.25 but still not allowed.

Draz74
2010-05-21, 11:54 AM
Monster classes do exist in 3.5, for what it's worth. Libris Mortis and web enhancements.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 11:56 AM
Monster classes do exist in 3.5, for what it's worth. Libris Mortis and web enhancements.

Yes, but Savage Species doesn't. And web enhancement from where? If I can show the person it's legal 3.5 I can maybe get him to agree on using it.

Mongoose87
2010-05-21, 12:19 PM
Yes, but Savage Species doesn't. And web enhancement from where? If I can show the person it's legal 3.5 I can maybe get him to agree on using it.

Web Enhancements are found on the WotC website.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 12:20 PM
I would like to have a link, because that complete site is an horrible abomination in my eyes (in short I fail to find anything on it)

Greymane
2010-05-21, 12:24 PM
While I have yet to try it, I do believe that an Elan Psion//Warblade would be one of the hardest things to kill this side of the Prime.

Please note: This is awesome.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 12:25 PM
While I have yet to try it, I do believe that an Elan Psion//Warblade would be one of the hardest things to kill this side of the Prime.

Please note: This is awesome.

Does it matter what for discipline?

Greymane
2010-05-21, 12:27 PM
Anything that lets you break action-economy is preferred. Egoist is very fun if you like doing maneuvers as, say, a pyrohydra or something.

Greenish
2010-05-21, 12:49 PM
Low lvl solo endurance at is so far away from the normal optimization...I'd probably go with Crusader//cleric for the early levels, then some dips on crusader side and maybe Ordained Champion with cleric on the other side on the levels you'd lose casting progression. Archivist//warblade might work too.


Oh, and Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) on WotC site.

Jeff240sx
2010-05-21, 02:23 PM
I don't like having the DM throw shoes at me, and don't like when I sneak something past the DM and every session afterwards he questions my motives. Like my Changeling Killer Gnome(tm). He said no Gnome illusionists...

So personally, I would go...

No Multiclass Penalties - Kobold with *only* Greater Draconic Rite
Sorc 3 / Swiftblade 10 / AbChamp 4 / Sorcerer 3
//
Fighter 1 / Druid 2 / Sorcerer 1 / Monk 1 / Druid 12 / Planar Shepherd 3

That give you a free Fighter feat, Dodge from Monk, plus IUS and Wis to AC unarmored. Elemental Wildshape 1/day, or up to Huge 5/day.
18 levels of Sorc casting for level 9s, 17 levels of Druid for level 9s.
Full Swiftblade abilities including Haste = Timestop.
Full +20 BAB.

If Multiclass Penalties, the 2nd half goes straight Druid 17 / Planar Shepherd 3. You lose an attack that way, and need to burn some feats.

No XP penalties:
You can heal at mid levels. You can summon. You have an animal companion. A familiar you can ditch for a feat (SRD: Forlorn or Loner or w/e it was from some Dragon Magazine). +4 Wis to AC, +8 Shield AC from AbChamp, +12 Greater Luminous Armor (+16AC vs. melee!!). Total AC 34+DEX before Wildshape's natural armor.
5 Attacks when Hasted (always).
Natural Spell for casting whatever's needed at any time, including Arcane spells.

XP penalties:
Pretty much straight druid who can transform into magical beasts at 20, huge elementals. Needs to burn a ton of feats, so probably needs some flaws.

Yea. That's what I'd play.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 02:25 PM
I don't like having the DM throw shoes at me, and don't like when I sneak something past the DM and every session afterwards he questions my motives. Like my Changeling Killer Gnome(tm). He said no Gnome illusionists...

So personally, I would go...

No Multiclass Penalties - Kobold with *only* Greater Draconic Rite
Sorc 3 / Swiftblade 10 / AbChamp 4 / Sorcerer 3
//
Fighter 1 / Druid 2 / Sorcerer 1 / Monk 1 / Druid 12 / Planar Shepherd 3

That give you a free Fighter feat, Dodge from Monk, plus IUS and Wis to AC unarmored. Elemental Wildshape 1/day, or up to Huge 5/day.
18 levels of Sorc casting for level 9s, 17 levels of Druid for level 9s.
Full Swiftblade abilities including Haste = Timestop.
Full +20 BAB.

If Multiclass Penalties, the 2nd half goes straight Druid 17 / Planar Shepherd 3. You lose an attack that way, and need to burn some feats.

No XP penalties:
You can heal at mid levels. You can summon. You have an animal companion. A familiar you can ditch for a feat (SRD: Forlorn or Loner or w/e it was from some Dragon Magazine). +4 Wis to AC, +8 Shield AC from AbChamp, +12 Greater Luminous Armor (+16AC vs. melee!!). Total AC 34+DEX before Wildshape's natural armor.
5 Attacks when Hasted (always).
Natural Spell for casting whatever's needed at any time, including Arcane spells.

XP penalties:
Pretty much straight druid who can transform into magical beasts at 20, huge elementals. Needs to burn a ton of feats, so probably needs some flaws.

Yea. That's what I'd play.

No dragon magazine or compendium or dungeon magazine. Only official printed WoTC 3.5 books.

Greenish
2010-05-21, 02:27 PM
No Multiclass Penalties - Kobold with *only* Greater Draconic RiteWell, Dragonwrought is pretty balanced (even with aging trick) as long as you don't use it to qualify for sovereign archetypes.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 02:31 PM
I do not care about balanced as long as it follows the rules. Even better powerfull is better.

Greenish
2010-05-21, 02:35 PM
I do not care about balanced as long as it follows the rules. Even better powerfull is better.But Jeff does, which is why I offered my opinion.

No dragon magazine or compendium or dungeon magazine. Only official printed WoTC 3.5 books.Dragon Compendium is an official printed 3.5 book.

Duskranger
2010-05-21, 02:36 PM
But Jeff does, which is why I offered my opinion.
Dragon Compendium is an official printed 3.5 book.

Scratch the compendium remark than.

Jeff240sx
2010-05-21, 03:05 PM
Scratch the compendium remark than.

Doesn't make the build any less viable. So you can't trade the familiar for a feat... good news, you get a familiar, and the Alertness feat that comes with it! Take a Raven for a messenger, or Bat for Blindsight.

You'll end up Shapechanging the bugger later down the line anyway into something scary. And you've got your immensely powerful Animal Companion to chew on badguys in the meantime.

Then you change into a big strong thing with many attacks and special abilities. Beat things senseless while hasted and getting the 50% miss chance against you and concealment - negating all precision damage.


Venerable is fine, too, since you'll be Wildshaped or Alter-Self'd most of the time for combat.

If you anticipate light sensitivity being an issue - Desert Kobold for -2 WIS (+1 after Venerable). If not, Earth Kobold for -2 STR and -2 CON.

2xMachina
2010-05-21, 03:17 PM
Dragonwrought fixes any Venerable.

Jeff240sx
2010-05-21, 03:34 PM
Dragonwrought fixes any Venerable.

True... but so does Wildshape / Polymorph.
Don't even need to burn the feat if it gets tight - just be Venerable.

Already need to spend 2 feats, Draconic Resivour for Greater Rite of Passage, and one for Natural Spell.

Cespenar
2010-05-21, 03:41 PM
Monk 1/Sorcerer 9/Enlightened Fist 7/Tattooed Monk 3//Paladin 2/Marshal 18.

:smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-05-21, 03:43 PM
True... but so does Wildshape / Polymorph.
Don't even need to burn the feat if it gets tight - just be Venerable.Not quite. You don't gain hitpoints from your wildshape's con score, but from your original one. -3 hitpoints every level adds up.

Jeff240sx
2010-05-21, 04:20 PM
Not quite. You don't gain hitpoints from your wildshape's con score, but from your original one. -3 hitpoints every level adds up.

Stupid wildshape intracacies...
Well, Venerable would be a better feat than Toughness, LOL.