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faith
2010-05-20, 11:05 PM
going up 1 on 1 with an epic level monk so it should be easy. but you can never have enough preparation right? so im level 16ish. standard items. so what tactics should i generally use?
so far i have
-fly
-force cage
-orbs
*also im looking to *not* use infinite combos.
ty in advance.
3.5game

holywhippet
2010-05-20, 11:24 PM
Your main danger is letting that monk get in hand to hand combat range with you - don't assume fly will keep you out of danger since hide is a monk class skill which means they can just get out of line of sight and wait until your spell runs out.

Consider some summoning spells in order to have meatshields to cover you on the ground. Look also for spells that aren't blocked by magical resistance.

sonofzeal
2010-05-20, 11:26 PM
Books available? Cheese level sought?

- "Faeries Mysteries Initiate" = use your Int for hp.

- Prepare "Celerity" and bring a scroll of "Time Stop". Best used with a method to prevent flatfootedness.

- Solid Fog can get him to waste his Abundant Step, before hitting him with the much more expensive Forcecage

- Stack "miss chance" effects. Greater Mirror Image + Blink + Blur + incorporeality = lulz.

Doc Roc
2010-05-20, 11:40 PM
starmantle + any source of evasion.
basically, just look through the ToS banlist.

WeeFreeMen
2010-05-20, 11:49 PM
Really, Just for simplicities sake. The list of what NOT to do is so much easier.
You can really do ANYTHING you want with a Wizard vs. Monk..

Things to PREPARE for:
-Anti Melee Range/Effective Use (This can be done with: Ranged Combat, Stacking Miss Chance, Not being the one to take the Damage (IE: Shield Other))
-ANTI GRAPPLE - Freedom of Movement, Benign Transposition (sp?), Blur, MirrorImage.
-ANTI - ANTI MAGIC FIELD (This will come into play If he is a Grappler with a Custom Item, 5ft Anti-Magic field, If hes flat-basic monk you shouldnt have to worry).

----
Lets focus on you NOT taking the damage, regardless.
Helpful Spells: Freedom of Movement, Blur+Mirror Image+Displacement, Any of the Bigsby Grasping/Forceful Hand spells (It makes for Handy barrier), Wall Spells (Last resort), Invisibility (Or greater if you can afford it, chances are his Spot/Listen will be huge if hes smart).

Also Important: GLITTERDUST! ALWAYS GLITTERDUST! (He will need to Hide from you for LoS, you can deny him that and Blind is HUGE vs. Melee (Along with your already impressive miss chances).

Alternatively, Polymorph into something extremely small and pick spells you can cast without Somatic components or gestures (Or take the feats) and just Buzz around and "Sting" him to death.

Superglucose
2010-05-20, 11:49 PM
-fly
Good


-force cage
Anklets of Translocation are really good items for a very large number of reasons. I think they even cost less than the material component for Force Cage.


-orbs
Monks do not have tremendously high touch ACs, but their AC is mostly touch. Probably not what you want to use.

Disjunct him and it's game. Contingency (I'm attacked/rude gesture/whatever) -> DD 100ft up -> Timestop -> Shapechange -> Disjunct -> Tenser's Transformation while a Solar -> pull out a greatsword and beat the tar out of the monk as a fighter.

PId6
2010-05-20, 11:57 PM
Singleclassed wizard or PrCs allowed? And level of monk? Shouldn't matter that much but still kinda does limit your options if he's too high level. Remember that Exceptional Deflection + Infinite Deflection lets him block all ranged touch attacks, so don't bother with those.

Scrolls of Shapechange/Gate/Time Stop can be pretty good. Monks actually have good saves/touch AC, so don't bother with spells that allow them and just either focus on Planar Binding/Gate for unstoppable monsters or Polymorph/Shapechange to turn yourself into an unstoppable monster.

Also, since he's an Outsider, see if you can't Gate him in and command him to kill himself. :smalltongue:

Doc Roc
2010-05-20, 11:58 PM
Don't forget to bring a simulacrum.
A Drakehelm (Explorer's Handbook) will get you Favor Of The Martyr.

Math_Mage
2010-05-20, 11:59 PM
Anklets of Translocation are really good items for a very large number of reasons. I think they even cost less than the material component for Force Cage.

Doesn't the cube version of Forcecage block line of effect? Then you can't use Anklets to get out. There are other ways, though.

Superglucose
2010-05-21, 12:12 AM
In any case, just be a better monk than he is. If you're going to beat them, crush them in a way that proves your superiority. Everyone knows that a wizard can cast Fireball, what they don't know is that a wizard can also hit things with a pointy stick.

EDIT: Greater Arcane Sight to figure out if he has Freedom of Movement up (4th level aburation, so moderate abjuration aura) after you disjunct. If he does not, then grapple him to death as a Balor. Just pin him, and let the rest of it sort itself out (he takes 6d6 fire, you have a BAB of 20, a strength of 39, and if you throw on Enlarge Person to yourself probably a size advantage as well).

Critical
2010-05-21, 12:15 AM
lol, really? You're asking help to beat a monk as a wizard? Okay, he's a monk, you're a wizard. You win.

EDIT: Also, I personally reccomend dropping fly and using an alter self form with flight. Lower spell slot and longer duration! :smallwink:

nyarlathotep
2010-05-21, 12:32 AM
lol, really? You're asking help to beat a monk as a wizard? Okay, he's a monk, you're a wizard. You win.

EDIT: Also, I personally reccomend dropping fly and using an alter self form with flight. Lower spell slot and longer duration! :smallwink:

He's only asking because of the level differential.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 12:34 AM
Don't forget, he's an epic monk with epic wealth.

However, if you do things right he'll need every gp he can get his unarmed strike on.

Learn the delay death spell, and cast it on round 1. Be a warforged as well, and polymorph into a chain golem or something, and you're now immune to anything he can possibly do to you using his class abilities (assuming 100% monk). Nab a planar bound nightmare (or a simulacrum thereof) for astral projection, to castrate anything he might try to pull out via items.

As for what you'll want to do? Grab yourself a portable hole and fill it with all of the simulacrums, undead, and planar bound minions you can squeeze into a 1000 cubic foot space, then dump them out to hound him all over the place (allips are nice, as he'll find hitting them less than easy, and they can attack him from under the ground; fiendish remorhazes are nice, because they'll deal damage to him if he even thinks about hitting them). Find ways to entangle him to reduce his speed and his Reflex save and AC. Control weather to keep him groundbound, dimension lock to keep him from teleporting around, dust of sneezing and choking will make him easy prey for your minions to dispatch. Have a raven familiar and use shrink item on a cone made from adamantine (and wear it as a hat), using the raven's turns to prepare the command word for the cone, just in case he gets close to you somehow (not that he can hurt you - unless he's a loser Giacomonk, in which case he's already lost).

Hell, there are lots and lots and lots of ways to destroy him. Maybe not as many as there are for a fighter (good saves + good touch AC = hard target), but the old standby of dimension lock + force cage + acid fog + freezing fog is always a good one (especially since you have access to time stop scrolls).

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-21, 01:02 AM
Human Wizard3/MasterAbjurer6/IotSV7

He's an epic monk, meaning he's swimming in magical items and effects. Get rid of them, and he probably can't do much to you.

Sir Giacomo
2010-05-21, 01:15 AM
(not that he can hurt you - unless he's a loser Giacomonk, in which case he's already lost).


Sigh.

Monk at these levels uses time stop, gets next to wizard (possibly shapechanged tiny size from below to counter the cone trick), activates AMF (thus ending time stop) and wizard dies.
Contingencies go "poof", anticipate teleports or whatever will not activate as monk with his great move can move 480ft or more per round and thus does not need really dimension doors or such, and celerities...are somewhat magical as I recall. Also, poof.
Then...
- Either wizard is astrally projected, at which point the AMF immediately kills him. ("snap" goes the astral chord)
- Or wizard is present as usual, with the problem of facing the (epic) monk with a commoner's stats. I think, the (raven?) familiar may put up a bit of a fight, but the monk can sure to ignore the familiar. Ditto the nightmare (but astride the cone trick would not work that well, either).

I think the best chance of a wizard in this situation is to use his magic to hide or somehow remain unnoticed by the epic monk.
(remember at this point though also that an epic monk will have SR, saves - note how useless the disjunction gets vs a will save of +40 or such- hp and defenses that virtually blocks everything the non-epic wizard can throw at him. Add to this epic level wealth that could allow a monk to bypass any tricks of the wizard to hide. Possibly the wizard has a chance on a good day...but I cannot at the moment think of anything).

- Giacomo

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 01:18 AM
Hey Gia, sounds like a challenge! Perhaps Ernir will reprise his role as GM.
Meet you in the arena with my L16 core wizard and your L21 epic monk.

PS: Astral projection includes no such wording, by the way.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 01:23 AM
{Scrubbed}

Superglucose
2010-05-21, 01:24 AM
How many of those monk v wizards did you win again?

EDIT: Here's my bet for you Giacomo. I will kill your level 20 monk with my level 20 wizard. I will kill your level 20 monk with grappling, and not with spells. You may use whatever tricks you like. Sound good? It's even easier than the 20 fighter/monk vs 20 wizard that PR is offering because I won't even kill you using spells!

gdiddy
2010-05-21, 01:26 AM
I never get into these wizard/melee debates, however, I am beginning to believe that Giacomo is actually some sort of double agent that exists just to convince everyone how powerful wizards are.

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 01:27 AM
I never get into these wizard/melee debates, however, I am beginning to believe that Giacomo is actually some sort of double agent that exists just to convince everyone how powerful wizards are.

Eh, the test of spite would exist without him, and to me, it's proof enough.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-21, 01:27 AM
Hey Gia, sounds like a challenge!
Meet you in the arena with my L16 core wizard and your L21 epic monk.

PS: Astral projection includes no such wording, by the way.Astral Projection's wording is pretty vague, to be honest.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm


While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.

You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).Emphases mine. Could it be that AMF ends an Astral Projection? That wouldn't be as devastating as the (obviously biased) Gia interpretation, but it would definitely cause many a wizard grumble about wasted funds.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 01:28 AM
Hey Gia, sounds like a challenge! Perhaps Ernir will reprise his role as GM.
Meet you in the arena with my L16 core wizard and your L21 epic monk.

PS: Astral projection includes no such wording, by the way.And the challenge is on!

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 01:29 AM
Astral Projection's wording is pretty vague, to be honest.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm

Emphases mine. Could it be that AMF ends an Astral Projection? That wouldn't be as devastating as the (obviously biased) Gia interpretation, but it would definitely cause many a wizard grumble about wasted funds.

Dispel Magic can end the form, so it's a magical effect. By that, AMF should suppress the form, much like incorporeal undead. They're not dead, they just cease to be for a while.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-21, 01:31 AM
Dispel Magic can end the form, so it's a magical effect. By that, AMF should suppress the form, much like incorporeal undead. They're not dead, they just cease to be for a while.I guess an optimized wizard's most feared environmental effect is the dreaded (and DM-created) permanent antimagic field, then. Tinfoil hats for everyone!

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 01:32 AM
Dispel Magic can end the form, so it's a magical effect. By that, AMF should suppress the form, much like incorporeal undead. They're not dead, they just cease to be for a while.

Which has potentially terrifying implications, actually, in that I can hide in a wholly undetectable way with just an AMF.

Hmm. Look what you've done.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 01:35 AM
Which has potentially terrifying implications, actually, in that I can hide in a wholly undetectable way with just an AMF.

Hmm. Look what you've done.

Based on what order you apply effects in, it's possible to do it with shapechange, too.

Turn into an incorporeal undead.

Choose to apply: "Winks out" before "suppresses Shapechange"

noiadodh
2010-05-21, 01:36 AM
there will be a duel or not???

*grabs popcorn*

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 01:38 AM
Based on what order you apply effects in, it's possible to do it with shapechange, too.

Turn into an incorporeal undead.

Choose to apply: "Winks out" before "suppresses Shapechange"

Wizard inna bag? I think so! It'd need to have a sort of bivalve configuration, so that you could block LoE if you needed to, and you'd need to animate it, and it'd probably need to be your familiar.

Depressingly, not a single one of these is actually an obstacle.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 01:38 AM
I doubt it. I offered Giacomo a chance weeks ago. Still am offering.

For whatever reason, he's not accepted.

I suppose he could have enough time to type up dozens of pro-monk debates, and yet be too pressed for an objective analysis.

Or it could be that he doesn't have as much faith in this theory as he seems to infer.

Guess we'll never know.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 01:40 AM
Wizard inna bag? I think so!

Heck, put shapechanged wizard into a bag of holding. Place in AMF. There's literally no way to know it's not a simple bag.

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 01:41 AM
Heck, put shapechanged wizard into a bag of holding. Place in AMF. There's literally no way to know it's not a simple bag.

You are so beautiful. It's like watching the sunrise over a blasted jungle, and there's this faint familiar smell.... Half way between rot and caramel, with a tang of burning petrol.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 01:42 AM
I doubt it. I offered Giacomo a chance weeks ago. Still am offering.

For whatever reason, he's not accepted.

I suppose he could have enough time to type up dozens of pro-monk debates, and yet be too pressed for an objective analysis.

Or he could be concerned that he's actually wrong.

Guess we'll never know.Considering the results of the L13 wizard vs the L20 fighter (all of which with appropriate wealth, and all the different ways the wizard thrashed the fighter 50% of the time or better), I'm wondering if maybe the latter is the case after all.

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 01:46 AM
Considering the results of the L13 wizard vs the L20 fighter (all of which with appropriate wealth, and all the different ways the wizard thrashed the fighter 50% of the time or better), I'm wondering if maybe the latter is the case after all.

Well, Signs never submitted her fighter. We talked about it, and I was relatively unsure as to if I could best it. She was packing just a ton of tricks. The jump from 20 to 21 is enormous in terms of wealth, and very ungood. On the grasping hand, with only core, you have no ELH. With the ELH, I have genesis.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 01:47 AM
Well, Signs never submitted her fighter. We talked about it, and I was relatively unsure as to if I could best it. She was packing just a ton of tricks. The jump from 20 to 21 is enormous in terms of wealth, and very ungood. On the grasping hand, with only core, you have no ELH. With the ELH, I have genesis.There were several duels there; it was approximately a 50% win rate for the level 13 wizard.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 01:48 AM
You are so beautiful. It's like watching the sunrise over a blasted jungle, and there's this faint familiar smell.... Half way between rot and caramel, with a tang of burning petrol.

If you want to go for added fun?

PaO (x2) a T-rex into the table it sits on.
repeat for the 4 chairs around the table, and the porch swing a few feet away.

Watch what happens when AMF is used.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 01:49 AM
Well, Signs never submitted her fighter. We talked about it, and I was relatively unsure as to if I could best it. She was packing just a ton of tricks. The jump from 20 to 21 is enormous in terms of wealth, and very ungood. On the grasping hand, with only core, you have no ELH. With the ELH, I have genesis.

DMG has Epic Level stats... A few, at least.

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 01:55 AM
DMG has Epic Level stats... A few, at least.

Nothing for wealth, though, I believe.

lsfreak
2010-05-21, 01:59 AM
I never get into these wizard/melee debates, however, I am beginning to believe that Giacomo is actually some sort of double agent that exists just to convince everyone how powerful wizards are.

I've a friend who believes certain extremely opinionated and controversial political commentators are really just mindbogglingly-epic trolls, people who pull off their act so flawlessly and so convincingly that no one ever suspects they aren't serious.

I'm convinced Giacomo is one among these gods of satire.

cupkeyk
2010-05-21, 02:04 AM
Dispel Magic can end the form, so it's a magical effect. By that, AMF should suppress the form, much like incorporeal undead. They're not dead, they just cease to be for a while.


So the effect si suppressed, does the wizard reenter his body or is stuck in the astral plane? Because the monk could otherwise pound him in both scenarios.

The monk should have a few contingent spells too, And scribed tattoos.

Aneantir
2010-05-21, 02:04 AM
One day, I'd like to see Giacomo actually accept one of his challenges. However, I doubt that day will be today.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 02:05 AM
One day, I'd like to see Giacomo actually accept one of his challenges. However, I doubt that day will be today.Which one, though? I've seen dozens summarily dismissed and ignored.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 02:06 AM
Which one, though? I've seen dozens summarily dismissed and ignored.

I've got a core wizard 20 now, ready to go.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 02:08 AM
I've got a core wizard 20 now, ready to go.I wonder if I could take you on with a level 20 psychic warrior. Too bad I don't have the time or inclination to actually make one (it usually takes me a good week or three to make a high-level character I'm happy with).

Aneantir
2010-05-21, 02:09 AM
Which one, though? I've seen dozens summarily dismissed and ignored.

My guess is sometime he'll pick one of the challenges out of a crater sometime. I'm sure we could of filled one by now if these were in paper form.

cupkeyk
2010-05-21, 02:12 AM
Doesn't he have that how to build the joker thread from years ago. I'd be willing to play his monk even if I have no faith in it. It might work. Like when you have the hiccups and your grandmother insists you sprinkle sugar on your uvula. Faith isn't required if it will actually work, right?

Aneantir
2010-05-21, 02:15 AM
Doesn't he have that how to build the joker thread from years ago. I'd be willing to play his monk even if I have no faith in it. It might work. Like when you have the hiccups and your grandmother insists you sprinkle sugar on your uvula. Faith isn't required if it will actually work, right?

I actually like this idea. If somethings gonna work, it'll work. No if, ands or buts. Sure, it might not work as well as if Giacomo himself played it using his magical backwards logic, but then it's his own fault for not picking up the gauntlet he's been smacked with for years.

Killer Angel
2010-05-21, 02:16 AM
One day, I'd like to see Giacomo actually accept one of his challenges. However, I doubt that day will be today.

The point is: this one is not a true challenge. WIz. 16 Vs Monk 21, is almost the same as Wiz. 13 Vs Fighter 20: it's a matter of having different WBL to compensate the gap between the power of the classes. The simple fact of having such a confrontation, is the proof of the imbalance.
If Giacomo really wants to try to prove anything, he should accept Lycan's or Phoenix' challenges: Wiz. Vs Monk, same level.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 02:16 AM
I wonder if I could take you on with a level 20 psychic warrior. Too bad I don't have the time or inclination to actually make one (it usually takes me a good week or three to make a high-level character I'm happy with).

Well, I built the wizard on a "core only" assumption, but I doubt you could. He's not broken, but he's beefy for a wizard.

gdiddy
2010-05-21, 02:44 AM
I honestly feel bad for him now.

Tell you what, Giacomo. I am a horrible optimizer. I build wacky things for the sake of awesome. I have never seen a battle map. I play in roleplay heavy acting exercises when I game IRL. I can't even play chess over email because I am so scrappy. I have never played on the inside of an arena. Look at my posts in my profile.

I would happily test monk v wizard with you. Core Only or every splat book ever, completely up to you. You can even pick the level.

I like the ToS rules, but hey, all the half-spent wands you're going to buy probably wouldn't be legal. If you want, we can work out our own set, just for us. We'll each select a referee from volunteers.

Most importantly, I have never rolled a serious caster ever. The last one I did had Negotiator. My caster op-fu in 3.x is horrible. This will be my first. I want you to be my first, Giacomo.

So that is my offer. A guy who does not do arenas, who has never rolled or played a serious caster, who hasn't spent months trying to prove you wrong, and has no vested interest except for the lulz wants to see your monk in action. You get to pick the parameters. You get to select one of the referees. You can even have three or four levels of Warmarked or Swordsage.

Come on man.

Sir Giacomo
2010-05-21, 10:00 AM
Ok guys,

I did not pick up PhoenixRivers challenge for a core ToS-like setting duel wizard20 vs fighter20, because I did not have the time. I guess next week there is a good chance for or duel of these proportions.

Still, I already cautioned PhoenixRivers about the big problem that we have, in some decisive instances, vastly different interpretations of the RAW. A good example is the timestop/AMF trick I outlined.
While it could be possible to interpret a temporary winking out of part of a chord as not really severing it, imo this is a really big stretching of the RAW.
This list goes on. I once identified I think a dozen or so complete rules misinterpretations of a core level 20 duel of a wizard played by Lycanthromancer that he used to win vs a fighter. This duel was later often quoted by those who believe in wizard superiority.

As such, @faith concerning your OP, check with the DM before the duel what kind of rules interpretations he/she has.

Now, the duels:
gdiddy, do not feel bad for me...:smallwink:
However, I think you will have to queue up behind PhoenixRivers, DocRoc and quite a few others...
Still I hope that after the first duel, we may not need that many duels anymore.
And for the record, I so far did on these boards the following core fights (me playing the non-casters)
Level 12 monk vs druid (broken off due to rules disagreement without a discernible winner)
Level 12 fighter vs wizard (broken off due to rules disagreement when fighter got through the wizard's defenses)
Level 6 grappling contest vs cleric and sorcerer (win, no direct duel but best performance vs 3 monsters in a row)
Level 13 fighter vs wizard (draw)

Seeya all next week
- Giacomo

PS:
@PhoenixRivers:
- how again does your wizard escape again when the tiny monk comes in from below? Just assuming that away and say that the monk comes from above somewhat dodges the issue
- I think it somehow...surprising that an epic monk using time stop is less acceptable than a level 16 wizard using the most broken interpretations of various spells and npc help (the nightmare)

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 10:16 AM
PS:
@PhoenixRivers:
- how again does your wizard escape again when the tiny monk comes in from below? Just assuming that away and say that the monk comes from above somewhat dodges the issue
- I think it somehow...surprising that an epic monk using time stop is less acceptable than a level 16 wizard using the most broken interpretations of various spells and npc help (the nightmare)

We're definitely not using the most broken interpretations, actually. I'll see to it. But by the time that nightmare hits our native plane, he's going to be a broken extension of our will, not an NPC.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 10:18 AM
I once identified I think a dozen or so complete rules misinterpretations of a core level 20 duel of a wizard played by Lycanthromancer that he used to win vs a fighter. This duel was later often quoted by those who believe in wizard superiority.My 'rules misinterpretations' were RAW. Your 'interpretation' of the rules is frequently not even RAI, let alone actual RAW.

This is why your so-called 'attempts' at discussion have failed as well; you try to obfuscate your position by claiming 'RAW misinterpretations' as being the cause of your woes, when it's the fact that it's clear you hardly ever even read RAW, let alone understand them.

Let someone else play out the scenario. Level 16 wizard vs level 21 monk, both with level 16 wealth (to keep things more even). All splatbooks allowed, maximum op-fu engaged. See who wins.

Quietus
2010-05-21, 10:52 AM
PS:
@PhoenixRivers:
- how again does your wizard escape again when the tiny monk comes in from below? Just assuming that away and say that the monk comes from above somewhat dodges the issue

This was already outlined; the monk lands on the ground first. Whether that's because AMF starts with the person nearest the center and works out (so, you first, then them), or because you're below them, either way, you land first.

Interestingly, since AMF is "centered" on you, if it starts at the center and moves out, you fall first, the AMF is now no longer on the wizard, and he remains airborne... but for the sake of argument, let's say you both fall at the same time, keeping both of you AMF'ed.

You land first, take damage. The wizard then lands in the same square, takes damage, and since he can't share your square, is booted into an adjacent square. Your AMF is now making his adamantine/tinfoil hat's Shrink Object effect end, expanding it into the appropriate cone which covers him, leaving the Wizard unaffected by AMF and free to escape from inside his cone.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 10:58 AM
This was already outlined; the monk lands on the ground first. Whether that's because AMF starts with the person nearest the center and works out (so, you first, then them), or because you're below them, either way, you land first.

Interestingly, since AMF is "centered" on you, if it starts at the center and moves out, you fall first, the AMF is now no longer on the wizard, and he remains airborne... but for the sake of argument, let's say you both fall at the same time, keeping both of you AMF'ed.

You land first, take damage. The wizard then lands in the same square, takes damage, and since he can't share your square, is booted into an adjacent square. Your AMF is now making his adamantine/tinfoil hat's Shrink Object effect end, expanding it into the appropriate cone which covers him, leaving the Wizard unaffected by AMF and free to escape from inside his cone.Thank you for illustrating my point for me, Quietus.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-21, 10:59 AM
*Crafts a Tippyverse-esque auto-resetting Trap of Create Popcorn*

Quietus
2010-05-21, 11:06 AM
Thank you for illustrating my point for me, Quietus.

No problem, sometimes lurkers need to contribute, too. =P

Machiavellian
2010-05-21, 11:10 AM
I suggest TKing him upo several hundred miles into the air and letting go or simply casting Bigby's Crushing Fist and smash him into oblivion

denthor
2010-05-21, 11:16 AM
Prep spell Haste on yourself


Bring the monk down to your level ENERVATION takes off several levels of the monk and gets rid of a lot of it's special abilities.

Next spell slow takes it to one attack or one move action

third round

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 11:16 AM
I suggest TKing him upo several hundred miles into the air and letting goOh, the first one wouldn't work! He has slow-fall!

Oh, wait. Can't slow-fall when not next to a wall.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x120/RenditionMission/blogs/picard-fp-ascii.gif


or simply casting Bigby's Crushing Fist and smash him into oblivionBut aren't monks supposed to be masters of grappling, except for having sucky BAB, low Strength due to needing a high Dex/Con/Int/Wis and Cha (for UMD), and not having any way to deal with creatures too big for a Medium creature to grapple other than using valuable resources they generally fail at using because they don't get UMD as a class skill and have no spellcasting ability? I mean, they do get Improved Grapple, after all.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 11:30 AM
@PhoenixRivers:
- how again does your wizard escape again when the tiny monk comes in from below? Just assuming that away and say that the monk comes from above somewhat dodges the issue
- I think it somehow...surprising that an epic monk using time stop is less acceptable than a level 16 wizard using the most broken interpretations of various spells and npc help (the nightmare)

I've not suggested nightmare use, and the level 20 Wizard I statted up does not have the following spells memorized:

Time Stop
Polymorph Any Object
Gate
Any other spell which Calls, rather than Summons.
Simulacrum
Astral Projection

Based on that, I'd say that I'm making a good faith effort to stay away from the obviously broken spells.

And I find an epic level monk using time stop less acceptable than a wizard using spells. Full stop. No qualifiers needed. In any circumstance where a wizard uses spells, which are a class feature, I find that use more acceptable than a class using abilities which are not class features.

Also, the Astral projection can be ended by Dispel Magic. That means that the projection itself is suppressed. There is no RAW interaction for this, so I default to the line which states that nearly nothing can break an Astral Cord. I interpret this to mean that effects which can will be noted as such.

As for the tiny monk, shapechanged, under a time stop, and moving into position? I counter with: How do you detect the wizard?

Let's say heavy fog. 500 x 500 x 500. That's 10,000 squares. You can't listen for the wizard... After all, Time Stopped wizards make no sound.

And such an effect is easily within the bounds of a Control Weather spell.

There are a lot of factors that can't be taken into account. You start off with: Monk sees wizard flying along, la-dee-dah, and Pulls off a shapechange, time stop moves into position, and gets off an AMF.

In 1 shot costs:
Scroll of Shapechange: 20,625 (including focus)
Scroll of Time Stop: 19,125
Scroll of AMF: 8,250

It's doable, but it involves luck and getting the drop. It also involves using one of the "broken" spells. Well, actually, three of them.

The wizard I designed has 1 spell that could be considered "power", and that's Shapechange. Oddly, it's not the intended kill method.

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 11:37 AM
Honestly, I expect EWL at 21 to be an unbeatable edge versus EWL at 16. If it was 17, it'd be no contest, in a lot of senses, though.

Sir Giacomo
2010-05-21, 11:47 AM
This was already outlined; the monk lands on the ground first. Whether that's because AMF starts with the person nearest the center and works out (so, you first, then them), or because you're below them, either way, you land first.

Interestingly, since AMF is "centered" on you, if it starts at the center and moves out, you fall first, the AMF is now no longer on the wizard, and he remains airborne... but for the sake of argument, let's say you both fall at the same time, keeping both of you AMF'ed.

You land first, take damage. The wizard then lands in the same square, takes damage, and since he can't share your square, is booted into an adjacent square. Your AMF is now making his adamantine/tinfoil hat's Shrink Object effect end, expanding it into the appropriate cone which covers him, leaving the Wizard unaffected by AMF and free to escape from inside his cone.

2 issues:
- the first: already clarified by Newton. 2 objects fall at the same acceleration. AMF affects everything simultaneously, so both hit the ground at the same time
- the second: the cone also reverts to normal size simultaneously. So, the monk is caught in the same square as the wizard beneath the cone.
Wizard loses.

And no nicely illustrated facepalms that answer to issues I never even raised are going to change that.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

PS: Lycanthromancer, you may wish to link this duel you once did. Iirc, you gated in gold dragons while in a time stop although the spell does not permit it, put items on them while in said time stop and employed various other spells which imo were wrongly interpreted

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-21, 11:49 AM
Two objects fall at the same speed in a vaccuum.

No, two objects do not fall at the same speed in air. Ever. Even if they look like they're identical.

What do real life physics have to do with game rules? Things never happen at the same time in D&D.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 11:50 AM
PS: Lycanthromancer, you may wish to link this duel you once did. Iirc, you gated in gold dragons while in a time stop although the spell does not permit it, put items on them while in said time stop and employed various other spells which imo were wrongly interpretedFrom time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timestop.htm): "Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat."

Remember what I said about not reading or understanding RAW?

Case. In. Point.

Time stop also says that spells with durations continue to expire while you're in time stop (at least, your spells do), and it was ruled that because this was the case, the dragons were pulled into the time stop as well.

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 12:04 PM
From time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timestop.htm): "Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat."

Remember what I said about not reading or understanding RAW?

Case. In. Point.

Time stop also says that spells with durations continue to expire while you're in time stop (at least, your spells do), and it was ruled that because this was the case, the dragons were pulled into the time stop as well.

I side with L-mancer here. Unfortunately, the rules are extremely clear here. Duration persists, and gate doesn't technically target. You can thus gate during timestop. Is it stupid? Golly yes. Is it perfectly legal? Yes. Is it probably Rules As Intended? To my horror, I must also say yes here. As to loading items onto them, it's questionable, but completely irrelevant. Stacks of gold dragons are markedly hard to argue cogently with.

Superglucose
2010-05-21, 12:06 PM
Doesn't he have that how to build the joker thread from years ago. I'd be willing to play his monk even if I have no faith in it. It might work. Like when you have the hiccups and your grandmother insists you sprinkle sugar on your uvula. Faith isn't required if it will actually work, right?
Sure, I'll do it. Want to stat up your joker monk at 21? I'll stat up the wiz-kid at 20, no PrCs?

Milskidasith
2010-05-21, 12:09 PM
Oh dear god another thread got giacajacked. And here I thought I could just come up and give the newbie some advice on not losing caster levels and abusing things such as forcecage and dimension lock to keep the monk trapped, or just gating in reinforcements.

Well, best of luck in the inevitable five pages of argument over the rules of the fight and discussions about how previous fights were unfair for the monk.

Sir Giacomo
2010-05-21, 12:16 PM
From time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timestop.htm): "Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat."

Remember what I said about not reading or understanding RAW?

Case. In. Point.

Time stop also says that spells with durations continue to expire while you're in
time stop (at least, your spells do), and it was ruled that because this was the case, the dragons were pulled into the time stop as well.

Own goal here. A calling spell is not a summoning spell. You cannot even command the dragons what service you want of them.

- Giacomo

Edit: also, calling spells are considered instanteneous, possible causing the true death of an outsider. And all creatures are invulnerable to spells of a caster in a time stop.

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 12:56 PM
Own goal here. A calling spell is not a summoning spell. You cannot even command the dragons what service you want of them.

- Giacomo

Edit: also, calling spells are considered instanteneous, possible causing the true death of an outsider. And all creatures are invulnerable to spells of a caster in a time stop.

Erm. What?
Control is used throughout the language of all calling spells in the SRD. I know that no one wants it to be this way, but this is the way that it is. Besides, I can brutally murder your monk without a single Calling spell. Worse, I could certainly maul a party of 4 monks with a party of 4 wizards. That said, you know how to reach me to arrange any of these things, or to argue with me more directly, and I suggest that we permit the thread to return to its original thrust. If we want to keep talking about this, my impulse is to spin off a new thread.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-21, 01:22 PM
http://people.freebsd.org/~keramida/i-like-where-this-is-going.jpg

The Glyphstone
2010-05-21, 01:28 PM
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p116/ArcherYiZe/train_wreck.jpg

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 02:12 PM
The link to my thread is here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Core-only_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20...&post_num=154#338425214), by the way.

Also, could you guys spoiler-block those big pictures? They make reading the thread a pain, and once Giacomo leaves to debate this elsewhere, we can get back to the OP.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 02:40 PM
While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

First: Summoning/Calling spells do not target.

Second: Invulnerable (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/invulnerable) to your attacks and spells: Cannot be harmed by.
Well, calling and summoning do not harm. They do not harm, wound, or damage.

Third:

Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves donít harm anyone.
So, we're not harming it with a spell. We're not targeting it with a spell. We're not attacking it.

Nope, nothing barring calling/summoning in a time stop. If a spell does not target or harm a creature, invulnerable to attack doesn't enter into play.

Superglucose
2010-05-21, 05:56 PM
In response to the op:

One trick I've found works pretty well against melee is Extraordinary Spell Aim + AMF. Bonus points if you persist it. You see, ESA says that with a spellcraft check you can shape it so as to "exclude one creature." It's not done by spacing at all, it's literally you modifying the spell so that it just doesn't affect you... so then you ESA the AMF on yourself so anything that comes within 20ft doesn't get its WBL. Oh, also enemies can't cast through it (with the exception of things like "Orb Of"). Only downside? You can't cast through it. But here's a riddle for you:

Who wins in a fight between an unbuffed 21st level monk without magic items and a buffed Solar?

faith
2010-05-21, 06:20 PM
also, just found out today that hes going to use vow of poverty, if that changes anything.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-21, 06:23 PM
That changes everything.

He can't fly. And he won't have ranged attacks. Pick him off from above.

Laughing in his face for picking the single most useless feat for a Monk is optional but encouraged.

Boci
2010-05-21, 06:26 PM
Arcane disciple (evil domain) + CL boost? Yay for blasphemy and qucikened spells.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-21, 06:28 PM
also, just found out today that hes going to use vow of poverty, if that changes anything.

Two spells.

Fly. PHB.
Anticipate Teleportation. Spell Compendium.

With these two, and his Vow of Poverty, you win. You can kill him with cantrips, and he can't touch you.

PId6
2010-05-21, 06:29 PM
also, just found out today that hes going to use vow of poverty, if that changes anything.
...

...

...

Fly.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-21, 06:36 PM
Prepare Fly, Anticipate Teleportation, and then fill the rest of your spell slots up with Magic Missile.

Don't bother with metamagic, you don't need it.

His SR is 31. A few CL boosters and you hit that on a 5. (Take (Greater) Spell Penetration, as you don't need to spend your feats on anything else.)

Why is he taking Vow of Poverty anyway? It completely negates any advantage he may have had for having a higher WBL than you - and as Vow of Poverty works out to around 75% WBL at level 20 and doesn't improve past that...

...Yeah.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 06:42 PM
Maximized Extended Acid Arrow?

Superglucose
2010-05-21, 06:45 PM
Maximized Persisted Acid Arrow?

Just take Arcane Thesis.

Prodan
2010-05-21, 06:49 PM
And such an effect is easily within the bounds of a Control Weather spell.


Horn of Fog too. 2,000 gp.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-21, 06:50 PM
Maximized Persisted Acid Arrow?

Just take Arcane Thesis.

...Acid Arrow has a range of Long.

I'll let you work out why that doesn't work yourself.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-21, 06:58 PM
Oh, also enemies can't cast through it (with the exception of things like "Orb Of"). Only downside? You can't cast through it.

Actually, errata (or Rules Compendium, or something like that) said it doesn't block line of effect, so as long as the caster and the target aren't in the field, it doesn't do anything. Not that it matters, since the monk won't be casting anything anyway. I'd normally say "probably," but Vow of Poverty means that even UMD cheese is out.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 07:59 PM
also, just found out today that hes going to use vow of poverty, if that changes anything.Wow. Is he going to 'upgrade' to a VoP commoner next?

Boci
2010-05-21, 08:02 PM
Wow. Is he going to 'upgrade' to a VoP commoner next?

Well by epic level, chicken infested should give you a lot of wealth to play with.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 08:10 PM
Well by epic level, chicken infested should give you a lot of wealth to play with.Which would immediately force him to lose VoP.

Boci
2010-05-21, 08:12 PM
Which would immediately force him to lose VoP.

Yeah, as you said, upgrade.

faith
2010-05-21, 09:00 PM
well thanks for the advice. also one last thing: is there any way for me to win initiative easily?

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-21, 09:03 PM
well thanks for the advice. also one last thing: is there any way for me to win initiative easily?A hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative, a better Dex (not hard, since he needs ALL of his stats - save Cha - and you only need Int and Con, and you also have polymorph any object and regular ol' polymorph), shapechange into a dire tortoise, have a casting of foresight up, then cast celerity, or maybe a good old fashioned moment of prescience?

You have options. A LOT of options.

Also, swiftblade.

olentu
2010-05-21, 09:07 PM
well thanks for the advice. also one last thing: is there any way for me to win initiative easily?

Eager and warning weapons help.

PId6
2010-05-21, 09:18 PM
Eager and Warning weapons
Hummingbird Familiar + Elven Substitution levels
Improved Initiative + Quick Reconnoiter
Nerveskitter + Moment of Prescience
Foresight + Celerity + Time Stop
Shapechange (Dire Tortoise)

Prodan
2010-05-21, 09:37 PM
Contingency

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 11:23 PM
...Acid Arrow has a range of Long.

I'll let you work out why that doesn't work yourself.

Meant Extended, not persisted.

Tyrandar
2010-05-21, 11:56 PM
Amazing. Since I'm not the rule savviest, most spell knowledgeable person in the world, the one piece of advice I had to offer was, "Trick him into taking Vow of Poverty."

I am a genius. :smallcool:

Also Nerveskitter and Improved Initiative would give you a total +9 on top of your Dex (which should be decent for ranged touch spells). :smallwink:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-22, 12:18 AM
I don't have BoED. Does Vow of Poverty have epic applications? The epic VoP monk is literally taking away his one devastating advantage (epic WBL) for... stuff he could have gotten with a fraction of epic WBL. Unless I'm missing something.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-22, 12:18 AM
Amazing. Since I'm not the rule savviest, most spell knowledgeable person in the world, the one piece of advice I had to offer was, "Trick him into taking Vow of Poverty."

I am a genius. :smallcool:

Also Nerveskitter and Improved Initiative would give you a total +9 on top of your Dex (which should be decent for ranged touch spells). :smallwink:

You don't need a decent dex. At this level, if you need to hit a ranged touch attack, you quicken a true strike, and get a +20 to hit.

Level 20 wizard has a +10 BAB. With a 12-14 dex, that's +31-32 to hit on a touch attack.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-22, 12:20 AM
I don't have BoED. Does Vow of Poverty have epic applications? The epic VoP monk is literally taking away his one devastating advantage (epic WBL) for... stuff he could have gotten with a fraction of epic WBL. Unless I'm missing something.

There's epic homebrew for it, but they fall even farther behind WBL, and if he doesn't use that, then he's only getting a tiny fraction of what he could have (not to mention no flight, etc.).

Prodan
2010-05-22, 12:25 AM
I recommend the Maze spell. You should be able to beat his SR, which means that you banish him to an extraplanar maze he has to make a DC 20 Int check to escape from unless he wants to hang around for ten minutes or so.

It's quite an amazing spell.

Tyrandar
2010-05-22, 12:35 AM
You don't need a decent dex. At this level, if you need to hit a ranged touch attack, you quicken a true strike, and get a +20 to hit.

Level 20 wizard has a +10 BAB. With a 12-14 dex, that's +31-32 to hit on a touch attack.

Derp, there were so many posts with wizards of all levels and then the Giaderail that I forgot the level we were talking about. :smallredface:

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-22, 02:23 AM
Derp, there were so many posts with wizards of all levels and then the Giaderail that I forgot the level we were talking about. :smallredface:

Also, depending on how epic it is, the wizard can get auto quicken for level 1-3 spells, and get Quickened true strike as a level 1 spell.

The big one I like: Evoker's Disjunction.

Get a level or two of Archmage. Take mastery of elements.

Memorize a Maximized Chain lightning (level 6 spell, level 9 slot).
Apply a Rod of Empower to it.

Cast this, using Mastery of Elements to change it to sonic. Target his most durable item, and have it chain to every other item that you can see.

155 average sonic damage, ignoring hardness.
Every secondary strike does 77 average damage, ignoring hardness.

The items can save for half, and they can use the saves of their holder, but they cannot use other features and benefits. For example: Immunity to sonic does not extend to items, and a character's evasion does not apply.

Now that 95% of his magic items are gone, Disjunction him to get rid of spell effects.

Superglucose
2010-05-22, 04:17 AM
Actually, errata (or Rules Compendium, or something like that) said it doesn't block line of effect, so as long as the caster and the target aren't in the field, it doesn't do anything. Not that it matters, since the monk won't be casting anything anyway. I'd normally say "probably," but Vow of Poverty means that even UMD cheese is out.
Then you need to make sure that he's within 20ft of you, and we're back to grappling him :smallwink: