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kosutasu
2010-05-21, 03:44 AM
I would like some suggestions for an optimized anti magic hero based on rogue or similar classes with not many spells and or sorcerer/wizard basis. I want to counter magic with mostly cunning. Any equipment or strategies are welcomed.

i made a rogue,master thrower, occult slayer.I ready a standard action to disrupt a spellcaster. Then, as a standard action i throw 2 knives which, thanks to special disruptive trick of occult slayer, do 2x damage and this includes sneak attacks.Caster also loses spell.

Suggest any other tricks strategies, and prestige.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 04:05 AM
Well, the problem is that many spells can thwart tactics.

For example:

Ironguard, Greater Ironguard, and Stormrage all nerf the tactic you're using. If those are up, then you lose. You can't hit your foe.

If the daggers are nonmagical, add in Shapechange, and Ghostform.

kosutasu
2010-05-21, 04:10 AM
I havent heard of ironguard and stormrage. In which book i can find them?

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 04:35 AM
Spell Compendium.

Ironguard = Nonmagical metal passes through you without harm.
Greater Ironguard = Magical and nonmagical metal pass through you without harm.
Stormrage = Gain fly speed, shoot lightning from your eyes, immune to wind effects, immune to ranged attacks.

kosutasu
2010-05-21, 04:58 AM
you are right, thats why i hate spellcasters, they have these super duper spells and become imbalanced.

Gauntlet
2010-05-21, 07:20 AM
Items of Antimagic Field. Spellthief base class is well flavored for a mage slayer (CAdv, it's in the web preview as well).

To be honest, you will have trouble against a fully optimised caster no matter your build. If you're fighting a general spellcaster though (ie. not an arena type fight) you will probably do reasonably well.

Optimystik
2010-05-21, 07:51 AM
you are right, thats why i hate spellcasters, they have these super duper spells and become imbalanced.

If you can't beat 'em...

Melamoto
2010-05-21, 08:03 AM
If you can't beat 'em...
...you aren't trying hard enough.

Although it is still nigh impossible to defeat an optimized caster without being one yourself, even with an endless number of wands, staves, and scrolls. And eventually someone is going to challenge this and the thread will suddenly become yet another 20 page debate about casters.

Optimystik
2010-05-21, 08:06 AM
...you aren't trying hard enough.

Exactly.
*Hands OP his Hogwarts acceptance letter*

Lysander
2010-05-21, 08:10 AM
Antimagic torc. It lets you generate an antimagic field once per day.

Perhaps play a race with various immunities, like warforged.

Togo
2010-05-21, 08:25 AM
Well, the problem is that many spells can thwart tactics.

For example:

Ironguard, Greater Ironguard, and Stormrage all nerf the tactic you're using. If those are up, then you lose. You can't hit your foe.

If the daggers are nonmagical, add in Shapechange, and Ghostform.

Why not just use non-metal daggers? Plenty of other materials around.

There are a lot of spells in the game. The chances are high that for any one tactic you can come up with, there is a spell that can counter it. Just as for any one set of spells, there's a tactic, class feature or similar out there that can defeat it. The chances of any one target actually having access to the spell or effect you can't get around is very low. If you have 2-3 good tactics, you'll beat most mage-based encounters appropriate to your party's level most of the time.

Whether a 'fully optimised' wizard can beat everyone all the time is a different arguement, but unless you play in some very unusual games, you'll never meet such a creature.

Certainly there is no mage build that, given pre-knowledge of his abilities, is literally undefeatable by any build in existance.

I'd recommend spell-thief as a good place to start. You might also want to check out Legacy items, that can provide customised abilities in a handy form.

Melamoto
2010-05-21, 08:27 AM
Antimagic torc. It lets you generate an antimagic field once per day.
This is very effective against any caster below 9th level (AKA one who doesn't have Invoke Magic), but the hard part is getting within range of the caster. Most casters will have some contingent teleport effect active that will trigger as soon as you get close enough.


Perhaps play a race with various immunities, like warforged.
If you're using warforged for immunities, don't forget to go into Warforged Juggernaught to get additional immunities, to nonlethal damage, critical hits, all mind-affecting spells and abilities, death and necromancy effects (Including negative levels), ability damage, and ability drain, over the course of 5 levels. You also gain improved charging and bullrushing.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 08:29 AM
Because nonmagical daggers have significant disadvantages to metal ones. They're not very common, outside of tribal cultures.

I listed spells that are common at their levels. Spells that are good, and useful in a variety of situations.

I'm not saying that there's an undefeatable full caster build.

However, if the non fullcaster can't win without foreknowledge of the specific foe at the design stage?

That says something.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-21, 08:35 AM
Dragoncraft Daggers can be quite worth it. +298 gp cost, +1 energy damage, nonmetal.

Ryuuk
2010-05-21, 08:58 AM
I did this in a game a while ago, I'm not sure if it can stand up to the boards theoretical arena caster, but it worked fine in game:

Travel Devotion + Factotum + Anitmagic Field

With enough inspiration points a Factotum can Nova as many standard actions as needed. Use that and Travel Devotion to get next to the caster. Once there, I'd assume you get two very distinct possibilities:

1) Best scenario, you can get another standard action to activate the field, then another to start a grapple. Almost all of the Factotum's class features are EX, so they'll still be available. You're getting Int to Grapple checks either through Brains Over Brawn or by spending an Inspiration point, depending on the ruling. Once you have the caster in grappled in the field, you just beat on him until he's out.

2) Worse case scenario, even stepping closer to the mage activates some kind of contingency to have him teleport out. You can bypass this by spending more Inspiration points on additional standard actions and following him, but if he's the kind to use contingency, then odds are he'd also plan for that two. Might actually be best for the Factotum to TP out as well, at least he knows he made the mage waste his contingency.

Yorrin
2010-05-21, 09:33 AM
This is a trap. I've seen dozens of threads like this around here in the short time I've been here and they all end the same way- with someone pointing out that the caster is going to use divination to discover what strategy will best defeat you and then use it. This will then devolve into people who are knowledgeable about Wizards talking about a rocket-tag scenario where both full-casters have scried on each other and prepare their most ridiculous spells.

That being said, a swift hunter with Favored Enemy: Arcanists (Complete Mage ACF) and some smart feats is a good step in the right direction. Especially if you can get your hands on a reliable source of antimagic.

gbprime
2010-05-21, 09:43 AM
If you're going with a high BAB build, then Moonsea Sky Sentinel (Champions of Valor, pg 117) is an interesting option. Sure, it comes with a Dire Bird as a mount, but more importantly you get Spell Turning as an immediate action starting at level 3. (And since you can qualify with 1 feat, 2 skills, and a BAB of +5, that means you're Spell Turning by level 8.)

Two-weapon fighting, quarterstaff, spell storing item (or divine caster friend) with Spikes in it... and a dire bird. Gets around Ironguard AND Stormrage nicely. And yes, if you're a ranger, favored enemy: Arcanists, and try to throw Magebane on at least 1 end of your quarterstaff.

Godskook
2010-05-21, 09:48 AM
How much homebrew is allowed? Cause that's the best place to go looking for anti-caster gear. War-marked is supposed to do the job well, hitting ToS's tier 2, probably rather easily, from what I've heard. I've also got a 'brew that'll present a threat, most importantly by forcing rolls to see if contingencies go off at all, even when triggered.

Lysander
2010-05-21, 10:51 AM
Or use psionics. That's not magic. Right guys? Right? Totally different.

Eldariel
2010-05-21, 08:58 PM
Here are three syllables to totally roll your conception of "anti-magic": "HADOKEN!"

Holylolth
2010-05-22, 02:01 AM
WOOHOO!! My first post lol.

Sometimes the best solution is the most simple. Go monk, with the prestige class Reaping Mauler. Five levels of that, and any mage you grap is basically history.

15 lvls monk, 5 lvls RM. Take the mage-slayer feats, and they pretty much have no chance.

The theory behind this is in the DMG. First, the monk saves are awesome, along with a high touch AC, which helps alot. Also, mix in the speed of a monk, and you have a very fast, mobile attacker who is hard to hit and can make most saves easily.
Also add that a grappler has the ability to make it so the person he is grappling CANNOT SPEAK. There goes the verbal. Also, if they have to get a material component for their spell, they cant withdraw it from their pouch. There goes material. If they are pinned, they cant move. There goes somatic. The only weakness if quickened spells. Those can still be cast, but they may not be the best choice for someone literally hugging them to death.

From the reaping mauler, you get this:

At third level, if you keep a person pinned for 1 round, they have to make a Fort save of DC=10+RMClasslvl+Wis Mod or go to sleep(unconsious) for 1d3 rounds. Unconsious for 3 rounds(maxx), flurry of blows, spellcaster hp, makes for a dead spellslinger. Or heck, just go for coup de grace.

At 5th lvl, if you keep a person pinned for 3 consecutive rounds(if they are unconsious for 3 rounds, you dont have to roll opposed grapple checks.), they have to make a Fort save or DIE!!.

WOOOHOOO! I made my first post!!

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-22, 02:13 AM
WOOHOO!! My first post lol.

Sometimes the best solution is the most simple. Go monk, with the prestige class Reaping Mauler. Five levels of that, and any mage you grap is basically history.

15 lvls monk, 5 lvls RM. Take the mage-slayer feats, and they pretty much have no chance.

The theory behind this is in the DMG. First, the monk saves are awesome, along with a high touch AC, which helps alot. Also, mix in the speed of a monk, and you have a very fast, mobile attacker who is hard to hit and can make most saves easily.
Also add that a grappler has the ability to make it so the person he is grappling CANNOT SPEAK. There goes the verbal. Also, if they have to get a material component for their spell, they cant withdraw it from their pouch. There goes material. If they are pinned, they cant move. There goes somatic. The only weakness if quickened spells. Those can still be cast, but they may not be the best choice for someone literally hugging them to death.

From the reaping mauler, you get this:

At third level, if you keep a person pinned for 1 round, they have to make a Fort save of DC=10+RMClasslvl+Wis Mod or go to sleep(unconsious) for 1d3 rounds. Unconsious for 3 rounds(maxx), flurry of blows, spellcaster hp, makes for a dead spellslinger. Or heck, just go for coup de grace.

At 5th lvl, if you keep a person pinned for 3 consecutive rounds(if they are unconsious for 3 rounds, you dont have to roll opposed grapple checks.), they have to make a Fort save or DIE!!.

WOOOHOOO! I made my first post!!

Welcome to the posting world.

That said, this is a sub-par strategy.

1) you need to close to melee.
2) you need to be able to circumvent the contingency a wizard likely has. Personally, I usually have "Dimension Door" keyed to "being attacked".
3) effects such as Shapechange, force cube, freedom of movement, and more negate the tactic entirely.

For example: What if the wizard turns into an incorporeal creature? What if he turns into a creature 3 size categories larger than you?

What if he has Silent spell dimension door prepared?

There are a lot of things that prevent the grapple tactic. And many of them are very common.

Silent or Quickened dimension door and shapechange are quite common.

Pluto
2010-05-22, 02:22 AM
I would like some suggestions for an optimized anti magic hero based on rogue or similar classes with not many spells and or sorcerer/wizard basis. I want to counter magic with mostly cunning. Any equipment or strategies are welcomed.
For its theme, Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a).
For a prayer, Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b).

Honestly, your best bet is probably a Shadowbane Stalker (CAdv) or Sacred Outlaw (Dragon 357) build with Divine Defiance (FC2) and the Inquisition Domain (CDiv/SpC). Both are probably more caster-y than you're looking for, but you might be able to downplay that aspect of the character in RP. Without the spells, it's hard to effectively beat the nearly bottomless lists of abilities that any Wizard or Sorcerer could have.


WOOHOO!! My first post lol.

Sometimes the best solution is the most simple. Go monk, with the prestige class Reaping Mauler. Five levels of that, and any mage you grap is basically history.
You might want to check out this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704) thread for a thorough analysis on why the monk isn't actually very good at killing casters, even compared to the Fighter/Barbarian/etc.
And, y'know, the lulz.

Beorn080
2010-05-22, 02:26 AM
Note that the wizard could add some nasty armor spikes to his robes. Heck, +5 spellstoring armor spikes with Vampiric Touch would be a nasty surprise for the grappling monk.

sonofzeal
2010-05-22, 02:30 AM
WOOHOO!! My first post lol.

Sometimes the best solution is the most simple. Go monk, with the prestige class Reaping Mauler. Five levels of that, and any mage you grap is basically history.

15 lvls monk, 5 lvls RM. Take the mage-slayer feats, and they pretty much have no chance.

The theory behind this is in the DMG. First, the monk saves are awesome, along with a high touch AC, which helps alot. Also, mix in the speed of a monk, and you have a very fast, mobile attacker who is hard to hit and can make most saves easily.
Also add that a grappler has the ability to make it so the person he is grappling CANNOT SPEAK. There goes the verbal. Also, if they have to get a material component for their spell, they cant withdraw it from their pouch. There goes material. If they are pinned, they cant move. There goes somatic. The only weakness if quickened spells. Those can still be cast, but they may not be the best choice for someone literally hugging them to death.

From the reaping mauler, you get this:

At third level, if you keep a person pinned for 1 round, they have to make a Fort save of DC=10+RMClasslvl+Wis Mod or go to sleep(unconsious) for 1d3 rounds. Unconsious for 3 rounds(maxx), flurry of blows, spellcaster hp, makes for a dead spellslinger. Or heck, just go for coup de grace.

At 5th lvl, if you keep a person pinned for 3 consecutive rounds(if they are unconsious for 3 rounds, you dont have to roll opposed grapple checks.), they have to make a Fort save or DIE!!.

WOOOHOOO! I made my first post!!
Reaping Mauler's a really poor way to go about grappling anyway. One of the feats requires that you be Medium, so if you increase your size (which is one of the first things every grappler wants to do) then you lose access to the class. And between being a Medium sized Reaping Mauler, and a Large sized anything-else, the anything-else is probably going to win in a grapple. This means the class actually makes you kind of worse at its specialty. And that's kind of sad.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-22, 02:31 AM
Note that the wizard could add some nasty armor spikes to his robes. Heck, +5 spellstoring armor spikes with Vampiric Touch would be a nasty surprise for the grappling monk.

Waste of money. Better to spend that money on a metamagic rod.

For example: Metamagic Rod of Silent + Dimension door.

You can now be up to 1200 feet away. Engage from your strength, not the other character's.

Dr Bwaa
2010-05-22, 02:37 AM
To be clear, I believe the two ironguards are Lesser Ironguard and Ironguard, but whatever.

In general: you need something to generate an antimagic field around you, and then you need a nonmagical way to get next to the caster in the same round. And you need to be able to keep the caster from running out of the field. This fails if he has any reasonable contingencies, or half a dozen other things, but it's probably the best you can do in straight combat. Once you're in melee and in an antimagic field, grapple/power attack to your heart's content.

Of course, if you can afford it, and if the wizard is stupid, and if some diplomacy is possible, you can craft an item that produces an AMF on your command, and give it to the mage. Then you call down the AMF on him whenever you need to shut him down.

Otherwise... I guess if someone in the party can knock his will save down a bit, you could grab a scroll of Antimagic Ray (Spell Compendium again, I think), which is cheaper and would still help you out (you've still got to get him down before he can get to his wands/scrolls, though--just because he can't cast spells and doesn't have spell effects on him doesn't mean he can't activate his items. And by Moradin's Beard, take away his staff!).

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-22, 02:55 AM
To be clear, I believe the two ironguards are Lesser Ironguard and Ironguard, but whatever.

In general: you need something to generate an antimagic field around you, and then you need a nonmagical way to get next to the caster in the same round. And you need to be able to keep the caster from running out of the field. This fails if he has any reasonable contingencies, or half a dozen other things, but it's probably the best you can do in straight combat. Once you're in melee and in an antimagic field, grapple/power attack to your heart's content.

Of course, if you can afford it, and if the wizard is stupid, and if some diplomacy is possible, you can craft an item that produces an AMF on your command, and give it to the mage. Then you call down the AMF on him whenever you need to shut him down.

Otherwise... I guess if someone in the party can knock his will save down a bit, you could grab a scroll of Antimagic Ray (Spell Compendium again, I think), which is cheaper and would still help you out (you've still got to get him down before he can get to his wands/scrolls, though--just because he can't cast spells and doesn't have spell effects on him doesn't mean he can't activate his items. And by Moradin's Beard, take away his staff!).

Well, if we're going like THAT?

Wizard can always do a named version of Trap the Soul (Nondetection and Magic aura the stone to remove magic signs), and diplomacy a parley. Hand over a gem as a gift, to demonstrate your earnest desire to end this sordid dispute.

He takes it, he's down for the count. No need to convince him to use it. The act of accepting the gift damns him.

Wizard makes more effective use of diplomacy, and can use spells to boost his check.

Beorn080
2010-05-22, 02:57 AM
Waste of money. Better to spend that money on a metamagic rod.

For example: Metamagic Rod of Silent + Dimension door.

You can now be up to 1200 feet away. Engage from your strength, not the other character's.

We're talking about a wizard here. A +6 weapon is a trifling 72000gp, and if you just went +2 total, +1 and spell storing, its a mere 8000gp. I'll grant that contingent dimension door 1200 ft up is better, but an 8k anti grapple defense is something to consider. Besides, if you have access, drop a shivering touch in there. Even if it doesn't kill, it'll drop the dex below the threshold for the grapple skills, unless monk, in which case it stands a good chance of outright dropping him.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-22, 03:15 AM
We're talking about a wizard here. A +6 weapon is a trifling 72000gp, and if you just went +2 total, +1 and spell storing, its a mere 8000gp. I'll grant that contingent dimension door 1200 ft up is better, but an 8k anti grapple defense is something to consider. Besides, if you have access, drop a shivering touch in there. Even if it doesn't kill, it'll drop the dex below the threshold for the grapple skills, unless monk, in which case it stands a good chance of outright dropping him.

If you really want a grapple defense, go for a 40k Ring of Freedom of movement. The spell storing spikes still rely on winning grapple checks to damage. They're horrible tactics, as you will likely be outclassed in a grapple, and if you were going to win the grapple anyway, you don't need the "defense".

Further, spell storing items cast at the minimum CL for the spell, which means it's going to auto fail vs any SR of note. No. It's horribly bad. It's a waste of money, at any enhancement bonus.

Ring of Freedom of Movement.

Metamagic rods to play to your strengths.

Don't try to play your opponent's game. Make him play yours.

Beorn080
2010-05-22, 11:34 AM
Ah, I misread armor spikes and thought they just dealt damage back against a grapple check. My bad.

However, no where in the spell storing weapon trait does it say it casts at the lowest CL. For a random spell, you assume that for convenience, but for a spell you cast into it, its your CL.

Also, there are several reasons to maintain the grapple. If your immune to him, which a wizard probably will be, it might be reasonable to attempt to whack him with a shivering touch. If your toying with your opponent, like Xykon, why not? Since the monk should never be grappling your REAL body anyway, you can afford to beat him at his own game.