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draco_nite
2010-05-21, 05:49 AM
This is a monk build which plays with the monk's size and takes advantage of the fact that unarmed strike is a natural weapon.

28 Point Build

Starting Abilities

Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

We pick changeling (Monster Manual III) as our race, giving us the shapechanger subtype that we need for the Warshaper (Complete Warrior) prestige class later on. We also apply the Half-Minotaur (Dragon Magazine 313) template, altering our starting abilities:

Str: 20
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

LA +1
Large Size
Bonus Feat: Track
+2 Natural AC bonus
Darkvision 60'
+10' Movement
Scent ability
+2 to Listen, Search, and Spot
+4 to escape a maze spell (lol)
1d8 gore attack

This build can go one of two ways. If your campaign allows psionics, your first feat should be Wild Talent, to qualify for the Fist of Zuoken (Expanded Psionics Handbook) prestige class. Otherwise, you should take Endurance to qualify for the Tattooed Monk (Complete Warrior) prestige class. As for skills, be sure to take nine ranks of Concentration or eight ranks of Knowledge (Religion) to qualify for Fist of Zuoken or Tattooed Monk, respectively.

As for your monk bonus feats, you should take Improved Grapple if you want Tattooed Monk, otherwise, it doesn't matter which feat you choose.

At this point, I would like to point out that you should either have a wizard/sorcerer/whatever friend that is able to cast Enlarge Person on you, so that you can grow to Huge size. The reason for this is so that you can do more unarmed damage, as well as gain a larger reach. If you don't have a friend who can do this, however, invest in some potions of Enlarge Person. At first level, we can do 2d6 damage with an unarmed strike, and 3d6 damage at 4th.

At 6th level, we take Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual I) and apply it to our unarmed strike, allowing us to treat it as though it were one size larger. RAW, this is allowed, because a monk's unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon. At this point, we can do 6d6 damage with an unarmed strike.

At 7th level, we stop taking levels in monk and start taking levels in Warshaper, and only take four levels in it. The key feature of the Warshaper is Morphic Weapons, which allows us to grow a natural weapon. If, however, our form already has said weapon, it counts as though it were one size category larger. So, we grow an unarmed strike. Wait, our form already has an unarmed strike, so that means that it deals damage as though it were one size category larger. This puts our unarmed strike damage at 6d6. Yes, we're now at colossal damage, folks.

Other benefits of the Warshaper prestige class include a permanent +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, +5' to our reach, Fast Healing 2, and the ability to heal 10 points of damage with a DC 20 Concentration check, which are also REALLY nice.

At 9th level, we take the feat Superior Unarmed Strike (Book of Nine Swords), which allows us to deal unarmed damage as a monk of four levels higher. This puts our unarmed damage at 6d8. This makes up for the four levels of Warshaper we took.

Now that we've taken all four levels of Warshaper (the 5th level sucks, at least for us,) we can now start taking levels in Monk again.

...is what I'd like to say, but Monks have this really pointless restriction which prevents us from taking levels in Monk ever again once we take levels in another class. However, we can do the next best thing, and take levels in prestige classes which grant us the monk bonus to AC, movement speed and that yummy unarmed strike damage. Take your last 10 levels in Fist of Zuoken or Tattooed Monk (or whatever other PrC gives you monk abilities, just make sure to take feats/skills so that you qualify). Personally, I would recommend Fist of Zuoken, so that you can use the Expansion power to increase your size without having to rely on some wizard or the potions he brews for you (and, of course, for the uber hax that psionics itself brings.)

As for ability score increases, be sure to put at least one point into Wisdom if you're going Fist of Zuoken (to manifest those 5th level powers), otherwise, I'd put it into Str, Con, or Wis.

Your unarmed damage will cap out at a whopping 12d8 per attack, which is an average of 54 damage per strike, not counting bonuses from strength, items, or permanent greater magic weapons cast on you.

Notes: I calculated the huge, gargantuan, and colossal unarmed damage with the chart on page 28 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Prodan
2010-05-21, 07:58 AM
King of Smack says hi.

Keld Denar
2010-05-21, 08:24 AM
King of Smack says hi.

Tashalatora does too.

EDIT:
You could do 1/2 Minotaur Changeling Monk2/PsyWar3/Warmind10/Warshaper4 with Tashalatora for Warmind. You only need 11 effective levels of Monk to get the largest die size from unarmed strike with Superior Unarmed Strike + Monk Belt, this build gives you 12. You expand up to Gargantuan size, INA makes you effectively a Colossal Monk. With those massive fists + Claws of the Vampire + Sweeping Strikes, you should NEVER have to worry about HP...EVER, considering you can heal about 100 pts on a full attack, easily.

If your DM doesn't use multiclass penalties, you could just stick with the simple yet effective Half-Mino1/Monk2/PsyWar17 or Half-Mino1/Monk2/Ardent17.

mikej
2010-05-21, 08:24 AM
At this point, I would like to point out that you should either have a wizard/sorcerer/whatever friend that is able to cast Enlarge Person on you, so that you can grow to Huge size. The reason for this is so that you can do more unarmed damage, as well as gain a larger reach. If you don't have a friend who can do this, however, invest in some potions of Enlarge Person. At first level, we can do 2d6 damage with an unarmed strike, and 3d6 damage at 4th.


You're not a valid target for Enlarge Person because of your type. Since I'm fairly certain Half-Minotaur changes the base creature into Monstrous Humanoid.


SRD "Enlarge Person Spell"
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature

Just a small nitpick. You could achieve all of this more practically with an Monk2/PhyWar18 w/ Tashalatora feat [SoS]. Also get those friendly Spellcasters to just cast Greator Mighty Wallop [RotD ] on you and that wound up with the end result of Colossal unarmed damage.

Edit: Well Ninja'd on the Tashalatora part =/

Fortuna
2010-05-21, 08:26 AM
This would be so tempting to gestalt with something juicy...

Curmudgeon
2010-05-21, 09:40 AM
Here's a counterproposal: forget actual size increases, because Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) and one casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) is probably all you'll need. Actual size increases just won't work indoors or in most dungeons. Large size means you'll fall victim to the squeezing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) penalties (double movement cost, -4 to attack, -4 to AC) with a standard 8' ceiling. Further size increases probably aren't even possible in most dungeons.

Doc Roc
2010-05-21, 10:49 AM
Here's a counterproposal: forget actual size increases, because Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) and one casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) is probably all you'll need. Actual size increases just won't work indoors or in most dungeons. Large size means you'll fall victim to the squeezing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) penalties (double movement cost, -4 to attack, -4 to AC) with a standard 8' ceiling. Further size increases probably aren't even possible in most dungeons.

One of these days I'm going to give a shoggoth monk levels. Then just start laughing and laughing and laughing. In fact: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-21, 11:24 AM
Tattooed Monk is pretty great here, since you will have the Monstrous Humanoid type, and be able to alter self into any monstrous humanoid.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-21, 11:54 AM
One of these days I'm going to give a shoggoth monk levels.
Is that statted in Cthulhu d20? Because, generally speaking, any Cthulhu mythos creature can eat D&D Epic PCs as an appetizer. :smallamused:

jseah
2010-05-21, 01:52 PM
Is that statted in Cthulhu d20? Because, generally speaking, any Cthulhu mythos creature can eat D&D Epic PCs as an appetizer. :smallamused:
If epic spells are allowed as RAW, an epic caster would beg to differ.

Strongly. XD

EDIT: I also wouldn't put it past a high level wizard to be able to take down one of the "weaker" mythos creatures. Not the insane ones, just the more "normal" ones. Cultists certainly.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-21, 02:07 PM
It's a Monk thread and this isn't worth it's own thread:

What is Tashalatora and where is it from? If always wondered.

Also as I promised in another thread:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/aivanther/motivator9cdd8bd7ca1ac0da22c7f17606.jpg

Curmudgeon
2010-05-21, 02:11 PM
If epic spells are allowed as RAW, an epic caster would beg to differ.
Even Epic spells aren't going to help against out-of-reality abilities. The Hounds of Tindalos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos), which inhabit the angles of time, can ignore such trivia. You're Epic level right up until the Hounds go devour all your grandparents as infants. :smallamused:

What is Tashalatora and where is it from? If always wondered.
It's a feat in Secrets of Sarlona, allowing you to stack levels in Monk and a psionic class.

Greenish
2010-05-21, 02:23 PM
Just a small nitpick. You could achieve all of this more practically with an Monk2/PhyWar18 w/ Tashalatora feat [SoS]. Also get those friendly Spellcasters to just cast Greator Mighty Wallop [RotD ] on you and that wound up with the end result of Colossal unarmed damage.Ardent instead of psywarr gets you 9th level powers and more power points. Custom mantles get you the psywarr powers you want.

This is a monk build which plays with the monk's size and takes advantage of the fact that unarmed strike is a natural weapon.Unarmed Strike is not a Natural Weapon, though monks are allowed to treat it as one for the purposes of spells and effects that improve natural weapons.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-21, 02:44 PM
Unarmed Strike is not a Natural Weapon, though monks are allowed to treat it as one for the purposes of spells and effects that improve natural weapons.
The rules disagree with you on this point, quite consistently. Here are some examples.
You canít cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike.
You canít cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang).
Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strikeís damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)
A fanged ring grants its wearer the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and the Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) teat.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-21, 03:01 PM
The rules disagree with you on this point, quite consistently. Here are some examples.

Hm. Valid point.


Natural Weapons

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attackógenerally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

So, now we get 1 attack per round with unarmed strikes, regardless of BAB.

Greenish
2010-05-21, 03:11 PM
The rules disagree with you on this point, quite consistently. Here are some examples.Unarmed Strikes are listed under Weapons (but not under Natural Weapons), receive iterative attacks, deal nonlethal damage and provoke an AoO when you attack.

[Edit]:
A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.In other news, the rules are a mess.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-21, 03:47 PM
[Edit]: In other news, the rules are a mess.
Can't disagree with you there.

Unarmed strikes are natural weapons that mostly use the manufactured weapons rules. (Or the best of both, if you happen to be a Monk.)

draco_nite
2010-05-21, 03:55 PM
You're not a valid target for Enlarge Person because of your type. Since I'm fairly certain Half-Minotaur changes the base creature into Monstrous Humanoid.

It doesn't, at least not according to Crystalkeep. (I don't actually have the dragon magazine, mind you, I do have the other books.)

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-21, 03:56 PM
Monk beats the spell descriptions into submission:

A monkís unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells).

(Emphasis, Mine).

Curmudgeon
2010-05-21, 05:14 PM
Since I'm fairly certain Half-Minotaur changes the base creature into Monstrous Humanoid.
Half-Minotaur involves no type change, I'm afraid. From Dragon # 313, page 94:
Size and Type: The base creature's type does not change. If the base creature is of Small or Medium size, it gains one size category ...

Greenish
2010-05-21, 05:22 PM
Monk beats the spell descriptions into submission:Monk beating something? Unpossible!1!

Anyway, that passage is not an undeniable proof for it, since it could be read to mean that the monk's fists can be affected as both of the types (as opposed to them normally being natural attacks).

Looking at the unarmed and natural attacks and the rules and references to them forces me to conclude that WotC didn't have a bloody clue on what they were supposed to be.

Optimystik
2010-05-21, 07:02 PM
Tattooed Monk is pretty great here, since you will have the Monstrous Humanoid type, and be able to alter self into any monstrous humanoid.

Seconding this - TM is my favorite nontheurge-monk PrC, with Shou Disciple a very close second.


What is Tashalatora and where is it from? If always wondered.

Tashalatora is a feat from Secrets of Sarlona that lets you add monk benefits to your psionic classes, getting most of the kung fu flavor and shedding a lot of the suck. It is also available online. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5)

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-21, 09:01 PM
Monk beating something? Unpossible!1!

Anyway, that passage is not an undeniable proof for it, since it could be read to mean that the monk's fists can be affected as both of the types (as opposed to them normally being natural attacks).

Looking at the unarmed and natural attacks and the rules and references to them forces me to conclude that WotC didn't have a bloody clue on what they were supposed to be.

That passage, IMHO, is the "special exemption" passage for Monks. Anyone else with Improved Unarmed Strike, Natural Attacks, Etc. does not get the benefit that a Monk (or an Unarmed Swordsage, or a Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium), by RAI) gets.

aivanther
2010-05-21, 11:30 PM
Rules Compendium, page 16 to try and clarify


Natural Weapons
A creature that has a natural weapon, such as a claw or slam,
is considered armed. It can make unarmed attacks, but it canít
use its natural weapons as if they were unarmed attacks, nor
can it apply abilities that affect only unarmed attacks to its
natural weapons.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-22, 12:51 AM
...

Tashalatora is a feat from Secrets of Sarlona that lets you add monk benefits to your psionic classes, getting most of the kung fu flavor and shedding a lot of the suck. It is also available online. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5)

So it's like Daring Outlaw for monks and Psionics. Sweet.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-22, 12:54 AM
So it's like Daring Outlaw for monks and Psionics. Sweet.

Yep. Really good with Psychic Warrior and Ardent.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-22, 01:18 AM
*Resists the urge to make a bad joke*
That's what she said
*fails.*

Doesn't the size increase from Half Minotaur also increase Strength by eight and constitution by four? it also decreases Dexterity by 2 if I'm not mistaken.