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Kaskos
2010-05-22, 12:35 PM
So there i was with my Rogue based character playing the long game this friday when we got talking about our other game where the main 2 guys in question were my lvl 13 Frenzied Berserker now, and my mates lvl 13 Cleric - surely enough the boasting started.
I could kill you, No you couldnt etc etc.
I conceded that i was only amazing whilst the cleric was there to save my HP when i got to -50 and so forth but the boast continued -

I claimed that it wasnt likely gonna be that hard to make a lvl 13 character that wasnt a cleric, that could in fact beat his Titanium Armoured Cleric with an ability that gives him 10 dmg reduction and spells such as Harm and so forth.

I know he is a big fan of Divine Might and his empowered heals and harm if required - my problem is - i guess a straight Druid might be able to beat him... but any playgrounders wanna see if they can fool proof beat this mammoth cleric for me?

Only restrictions - basic races, no LA and no ToB.
Any builds or simply health greatly received.
(We make him lvl 13 and standard starting gold for that level)

Escheton
2010-05-22, 12:37 PM
desintegrate, dc hyped, done

2xMachina
2010-05-22, 12:38 PM
No Cleric?

Wizard.

Godskook
2010-05-22, 12:40 PM
Are you willing to go full-caster? Cause there's a couple options I'm sure.

As for non-caster versus cleric, you're kinda screwed.

Kaskos
2010-05-22, 12:44 PM
Any class is allowed as long as its not ToB and is a standard no LA race.

Bear in mind though, he is a VERY experienced palyer and has taken out some of the biggest creatures we have come across in one or two well placed crits.

I dont mind Melee, and i dont mind caster. I am just not allowed to go Cleric

Beorn080
2010-05-22, 12:51 PM
I assume it would be a standardish Test of Spite sort of battle? Rouge, pack a scroll or three of disjunction.

Chrono22
2010-05-22, 12:52 PM
Is he a smart player? Does he have multiple holy symbols? Cause if not, you can simply sunder/sleight of hand it away from him.

Kaskos
2010-05-22, 12:54 PM
Is he a smart player? Does he have multiple holy symbols? Cause if not, you can simply sunder/sleight of hand it away from him.

He is intelligent and i dont know where his Holy Symbol is.

And yeah - just need him to be beaten before me really.

Godskook
2010-05-22, 12:59 PM
Actually, a Totem Rager might be doable. What do you know about his build?

Or you could go with a schismed Psion dropping ego whips. You're likely to kill him in a single nova'd attack unless (A)he buffs Cha a whole lot or (B)he's immune to ability damage.

Let's see, what's he vulnerable to, going down the list:

-Ability Damage
-Stun
-Fear
-Entangle(Does he have evasion?)
-Flight

Knowing what he prepares for and what he's typically capable of is kinda key to beating him.

goken04
2010-05-22, 01:01 PM
Hit his Touch AC with a Ray Wizard. Dip a level of Spellthief and take Master Spellthief to cast wizard spells in light armor then go Spellwarp Sniper from Complete Scoundrel. DONE.

Kaskos
2010-05-22, 01:03 PM
Actually, a Totem Rager might be doable. What do you know about his build?

Or you could go with a schismed Psion dropping ego whips. You're likely to kill him in a single nova'd attack unless (A)he buffs Cha a whole lot or (B)he's immune to ability damage.

Let's see, what's he vulnerable to, going down the list:

-Ability Damage
-Stun
-Fear
-Entangle(Does he have evasion?)
-Flight

Knowing what he prepares for and what he's typically capable of is kinda key to beating him.


I dont know the Totem Rager and what i am most worried about is Harm and the empowering side of him. He loves to use Divine Might and has uber armour and crossed with an ability gives him the 10 Dmg reduction. If he thinks he is in for a fight, he will buff up good and ready

Doc Roc
2010-05-22, 01:13 PM
Basically, he's not playing very strongly, if he's sticking to just empowered heals and harm. Level 13, you said?

What's his AC, his touch ac, and his charisma or his dex?

gallagher
2010-05-22, 01:14 PM
just to spite him, i would go druid, and show him how some real badassery with a divine caster that is also a bear. and an eagle. and a dinosaur

Kaskos
2010-05-22, 01:19 PM
Basically, he's not playing very strongly, if he's sticking to just empowered heals and harm. Level 13, you said?

What's his AC, his touch ac, and his charisma or his dex?

Hiya Doc. I cant recal exactly but i believe his AC with armour is around 34.
Not high Dex due to big armour but i can find this out as i get to use his stats to make my opposition.

He is well statted - not amazing but well statted.
And thats not all he sticks to - they are just the bits he likes to use

Godskook
2010-05-22, 01:22 PM
I dont know the Totem Rager and what i am most worried about is Harm and the empowering side of him. He loves to use Divine Might and has uber armour and crossed with an ability gives him the 10 Dmg reduction. If he thinks he is in for a fight, he will buff up good and ready

Do you know anything tangibly explicit about his build? Like how high his wisdom is, what his race or build is, what he normally prepares or is immune to?

Cause unless he's immune to ability damage, an Ego Whip psion would down him fast.

If he can't fly and doesn't have decent range, there's a lot you can work with there.

If he's not immune to fear, you can play around with Schneeky's Samurai of fear.

Edwin
2010-05-22, 01:23 PM
just to spite him, i would go druid, and show him how some real badassery with a divine caster that is also a bear. and an eagle. and a dinosaur

Go for Fleshraker and poison his ass to infinity and beyond.

tyckspoon
2010-05-22, 01:25 PM
I dont know the Totem Rager and what i am most worried about is Harm and the empowering side of him. He loves to use Divine Might and has uber armour and crossed with an ability gives him the 10 Dmg reduction. If he thinks he is in for a fight, he will buff up good and ready

Totem Rager is a nice theurging PrC for Barbarian and Totemist. Makes for one of the more entertaining melee builds in D&D, IMO, but it probably doesn't have the juice to take on a fully operational Clericzilla (on the other hand, if he's not a Persist cleric, you could probably take him out before/while he's trying to get his buffs running.) If you go with a casting build, you shouldn't have to worry about Harm unless he's put the effort into making it a Reach spell, since there is absolutely no reason he should ever get close enough to Touch you without being completely disabled already. Or if you use another divine class you can just run Death Ward and ignore it.

I'd probably go with an arcane caster (big surprise!) and run disabling tactics. Grab a Dispelling Cord (MIC) and the Elven Spell Lore feat, zot off any long-term buffs he has with a Greater Dispel Magic, and follow up with a Quickened Ray of Enfeeblement. Then Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion or Ray of Exhaustion, depending on how many spell levels you want to spend and how confident you are of beating his saves. (If you get him Exhausted, you might actually be able to draw a Heal out of him to remove it- there are lower level spells that will fix it, but I would bet there's good chances he won't have bothered to prep them.)

Kaskos
2010-05-22, 01:26 PM
Do you know anything tangibly explicit about his build?
Like how high his wisdom is, what his race or build is, what he normally prepares or is immune to?
I am working on getting this info - but it is likely 18-20.

Cause unless he's immune to ability damage, an Ego Whip psion would down him fast.
He is not immune to ability damage.

If he can't fly and doesn't have decent range, there's a lot you can work with there.
He can't fly, he has the standard range a Cleric would


If he's not immune to fear, you can play around with Schneeky's Samurai of fear
He is not immune to Fear.
.

And apparently i need words here to lengthen my post

IonDragon
2010-05-22, 01:28 PM
I could do it with Sorcerer. I wouldn't, but I could.

Greenish
2010-05-22, 01:36 PM
A fighter/barbarian based charger with a dip to something for using a wand of wraithstrike to attack touch AC. You need to beat his initiative and smash him to pieces, but by the sound of it that shouldn't be too hard.

PId6
2010-05-22, 01:57 PM
Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 1

Take Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and wield a two-handed weapon. Make the weapon Transmuting to get through his DR. Alternatively, take Draconic Polymorph and turn into a 10-headed Pyrohydra if you're feeling mean.

Combat:
Round 0: Buff yourself as high as possible with hour/level spells. Use Overland Flight so he can't get to you at the start.
Round 1: Cast Wraithstrike. Rage. Charge at him with full Power Attack. Kill him in one hit.
Round 2: Dance over his corpse.
Round 3: ???
Round 4: Profit

Greenish
2010-05-22, 02:05 PM
Round 1: Cast Wraithstrike. Rage. Charge at him with full Power Attack. Kill him in one hit.Remember spirit lion totem & whirling frenzy for the unlikely case that he somehow survives your first swing.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-22, 02:19 PM
Go wizard.

His Dexterity, Reflex save, and touch AC are probably crap. Hit him with a metamagicked shivering touch (using a ranged touch attack via any number of means) to knock his Dex to 0 so he can't move, sunder his (un)holy symbol, then pull out some of the allips you've brought along via Undead Leadership, and some of the level-draining ones (like vampires) to eat him for breakfast.

Then start laughing at him for being a cleric that was eaten alive by undead.

Feel free to use the same build to kill him in 55,000 different ways (as we can show you how).

gorfnab
2010-05-22, 02:29 PM
level 13...Druid 5/ Planar Shepherd 8 chosen plane Dal Quor

The Shadowmind
2010-05-22, 02:30 PM
Okay, what about a Binder so you can sneak up on him in the aether realm(5-steps at a time), with the mage slayer line, and a Blasphemix, and other poisons coated weapon.

Vaynor
2010-05-22, 02:40 PM
You're worried a lot about Harm, which is a touch spell, may I suggest a flying Wizard? Specialize in rays to bypass his armor class (I doubt he buffs his Dexterity much) and destroy his stats. Does he have a high Intelligence? If not, metamagic the crap out of Ray of Stupidity until he can't do anything. Make sure to get spells like Ray Deflection to defend yourself.

Edit: A sorcerer might even work better for this, since it's a single battle and you won't need that much versatility for a single fight, just select your spells specifically for it.

Ferrin
2010-05-22, 02:43 PM
Okay, what about a Binder so you can sneak up on him in the aether realm(5-steps at a time), with the mage slayer line, and a Blasphemix, and other poisons coated weapon.

Don't forget binding Tenebrous for the immunity to Negative Energy and a high bluff check. Wonder if he'll keep using it.

Heliomance
2010-05-22, 02:44 PM
If he uses Harm a lot, go Necropolitan. Make no attempt to avoid the Harm. Laugh heartily.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-22, 02:46 PM
If he uses Harm a lot, go Necropolitan. Make no attempt to avoid the Harm. Laugh heartily.Uh...he's a cleric. They can seriously hurt undead if they want to.

Also remember: he has heals too.

Ferrin
2010-05-22, 02:46 PM
If he uses Harm a lot, go Necropolitan. Make no attempt to avoid the Harm. Laugh heartily.

You're an undead, rebuke/turn or Heal. Good job sherlock! :smallbiggrin:

Damn, got ninjad. :smallannoyed:

Heliomance
2010-05-22, 02:47 PM
There are bluff and disguise checks for that.

Actually, Tomb-tainted Soul would have the same effect with less vulnerabilities.

Ferrin
2010-05-22, 02:55 PM
There are bluff and disguise checks for that.

Actually, Tomb-tainted Soul would have the same effect with less vulnerabilities.

That would indeed work better then being an undead. I'd still choose the binder though, but that's because I don't like casters which aren't psions. :smallyuk:

That reminds me, a Psion can make quite a dent in his regular strategy with some simple powers. You can take quite a beating as well. Ectoplasmic Cocoon would hurt him quite a bit, I don't suppose he has a stilled, silenced teleport prepared.

lsfreak
2010-05-22, 02:58 PM
Pump your Hide and Move Silently check into the absurd, get yourself Hide in Plain Sight (the good, Su versions), and he probably won't even be able to tell where you are, even while you're in the process of stabbing him in the kidneys.

(Very) rough build:
Rogue3/Thug Fighter2/Shadowdancer1/Exemplar1. You have 6 levels to fill in between thugshadowdancer and shadowdancer/exemplar.
Feats:
Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Hide or Move Silently), Darkstalker, TWF, ITWF, plus Mobility on a suit of armor.

17 ranks
+7 from Dex (ideally more - 18 base +2race +6item +2levelup)
+10 from items (armor of improved silent moves, etc)
+3 (Skill Focus: Hide)
Ability to Take 10 on both checks - Exemplar1
-20 for taking the actions in combat
Pseudo-Edit: Bah, I got to about here and noticed no LA. I was going to recommend Dark template from ToM for the extra +6/+8 to Move/Hide. That makes this a bit harder to pull off, but I'm sure someone can give you suggestions to boost your checks that last little bit that's needed. You could potentially get Greater Silent Moves/Shadow on your armor, but that's getting expensive.

If you're right and he has +5Wis, and full cross-class ranks in Spot/Listen (unlikely), he can only hit a 33 on Spot/Listen. With what I've got listed, you've got 27 on Hide. So you need to boost it a little more, just to be on the safe side.

BTW: I'd just like to point out that Heal and Harm can't be empowered.

The Shadowmind
2010-05-22, 03:13 PM
Okay if it was 1 level higher, then Binder 14 would really screw with the Harm+Heal Spells. The vestiges you need are Chupoclops(for Ethereal Watcher, and Soul sense)and Acererak(for being healed by both positive and negative energy, also cold and electricity immunity), from the Soul guardian you have immunity from energy drain and negative levels as well. At 14 we could of added a third vestige to this, possibly Karsus for the Dispel magic touch. you could use Acererak's paralyzing touch once you jump out of the ethereal realm, then you an over poisoned blade, and Chupoclop's aura would make it harder for the Cleric to be the DC's.

Critical
2010-05-22, 03:18 PM
Be a Frenzied Berserker again, but this time choose Tomb-Tainted Soul feat. He'll probably think you're not dying because of Frenzy when he spams harm on you. :smallbiggrin:

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-22, 03:20 PM
You're an undead, rebuke/turn or Heal. Good job sherlock! :smallbiggrin:

Damn, got ninjad. :smallannoyed:I prefer swordsage'd.

Ferrin
2010-05-22, 03:31 PM
I prefer swordsage'd.

Ninjas are, generally speaking, sneakier then swordsages. Desert wind does not contribute a lot to the sneaky part. :smallbiggrin:

oh, is anima mage an option? Gets you 12th casting level and 11th level binding(+2 for choosing vestiges) can get you 3 persists as well, arcane disciple for some all day buffs.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-22, 03:34 PM
Ninjas are, generally speaking, sneakier then swordsages. Desert wind does not contribute a lot to the sneaky part. :smallbiggrin:Shadow Hand would like a word with you.

Just make sure to dodge its rapier wit to avoid the thrust of the conversation.

Right in your jugular.

Ferrin
2010-05-22, 03:40 PM
Shadow Hand would like a word with you.

Just make sure to dodge its rapier wit to avoid the thrust of the conversation.

Right in your jugular.

Not all swordsages take shadow hand, all ninjas however can go invisible and ethereal. That's what I meant, sorry! :smalltongue:

Human Wizard2/Binder1/Anima Mage10

Feats: Precocious Apprentice(b), Extend Spell(1), Improved Binding(3), Persistent Spell(6), level 9 and 12 feats... Not sure, ask some other people. :smallbiggrin:

But that will make you immune to his favorite damage spell(and it's buddy heal) and gives you several other options due to your near full casting.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-22, 03:44 PM
oh, is anima mage an option? Gets you 12th casting level and 11th level binding(+2 for choosing vestiges) can get you 3 persists as well, arcane disciple for some all day buffs.
You could have 13th level casting and 10th level binding, if you really wanted. You don't actually need Binder levels to qualify for Anima Mage, and it will advance your "Effective Binder Level" even if you have EBL 0 to start with.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-22, 03:45 PM
Not all swordsages take shadow hand, all ninjas however can go invisible and ethereal. That's what I meant, sorry! :smalltongue:All ninjas are swordsages, but not all swordsages are ninjas.

Eat faulty logic, unbeliever!

Ferrin
2010-05-22, 03:46 PM
You could have 13th level casting and 10th level binding, if you really wanted. You don't actually need Binder levels to qualify for Anima Mage, and it will advance your "Effective Binder Level" even if you have EBL 0 to start with.

Thing is there's nothing to advance. I don't think that would fly with most Dm's.


All ninjas are swordsages, but not all swordsages are ninjas.

Eat faulty logic, unbeliever!

Sadly enough it's true, at least for somewhat effective ninjas. Cruel, cruel world...

DragoonWraith
2010-05-22, 03:50 PM
Thing is there's nothing to advance. I don't think that would fly with most Dm's.
"Most"? Hehe, I doubt it would fly with any DMs, unless they were specifically doing a high-powered campaign where cheese is encouraged (they do happen from time to time, mostly for silly-fun). It's hideous cheese, but it is RAW.

Then again, you could make an argument that burning three feats on pulling it off is a rather harsh penalty (seriously, Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, and whatever you use to get Intimidate as a Class Skill are utterly worthless once you qualify). Worth a spellcasting level? Probably, which sort of demonstrates how ridiculous those are, but it's not nothing.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-22, 03:51 PM
Sadly enough it's true, at least for somewhat effective ninjas. Cruel, cruel world...And some swordages gestalt with healer. (http://drmcninja.com/)

Ferrin
2010-05-22, 03:54 PM
"Most"? Hehe, I doubt it would fly with any DMs, unless they were specifically doing a high-powered campaign where cheese is encouraged (they do happen from time to time, mostly for silly-fun). It's hideous cheese, but it is RAW.

Then again, you could make an argument that burning three feats on pulling it off is a rather harsh penalty (seriously, Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, and whatever you use to get Intimidate as a Class Skill are utterly worthless once you qualify). Worth a spellcasting level? Probably, which sort of demonstrates how ridiculous those are, but it's not nothing.

Three feats to get 3/day persistent spell and 10th level binding which gives a lot of utility? Any day. Losing 1 caster level for one more level of binding and making it actualy legal with RAI? I'd go with that, though I think it's still pushing it. :smallbiggrin:


And some swordages gestalt with healer. (http://drmcninja.com/)

Multiclassed with healer? I thought unicorn mounts weren't supposed to be evil motorcycles?

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-22, 04:00 PM
Multiclassed with healer? I thought unicorn mounts weren't supposed to be evil motorcycles?Nah, he's a gestalted character in a non-gestalt world. That's why he's such an awesome ninja.

Heck, I would think that he's a factotum/swordsage//healer, just because he uses his god-like Intelligence score for damn near everything.

And he did indeed get a unicorn mount; this one, to be precise (http://www.dancewithshadows.com/honda_unicorn_india1.asp).

Ferrin
2010-05-22, 04:06 PM
Nah, he's a gestalted character in a non-gestalt world. That's why he's such an awesome ninja.

Heck, I would think that he's a factotum/swordsage//healer, just because he uses his god-like Intelligence score for damn near everything.

And he did indeed get a unicorn mount; this one, to be precise (http://www.dancewithshadows.com/honda_unicorn_india1.asp).

No, no, no! In the King Radical story arc! Sheesh! :smallbiggrin:

But I'd prefer to think of Dr Mcninja as a regular factotum, they can do anything anyway, and pretty good too.

Bucky
2010-05-22, 04:08 PM
Checklist:
*lots of Dust of Sneezing and Choking
*Some form of resistence to Dust of Sneezing and Choking's stun effect
*Any source of reliable ability damage

You don't even need to be Level 13.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-22, 04:09 PM
Three feats to get 3/day persistent spell and 10th level binding which gives a lot of utility? Any day. Losing 1 caster level for one more level of binding and making it actualy legal with RAI? I'd go with that, though I think it's still pushing it. :smallbiggrin:
Heh, I wasn't actually looking at what the Anima Mage granted, I was purely talking about the trade-off between one spellcasting level and 3 feats and a binding level. Are three feats and a binding level worth a spellcasting level? Hard to say.

Ferrin
2010-05-22, 04:27 PM
Heh, I wasn't actually looking at what the Anima Mage granted, I was purely talking about the trade-off between one spellcasting level and 3 feats and a binding level. Are three feats and a binding level worth a spellcasting level? Hard to say.

Well, 2 feats, since one of my feats(Precocious apprentice) Is useless afterwards. so it's 3 binder levels(for choosing vestiges that is) and 2 feats versus one caster level.

Oh, be sure to take Tainted Scholar a few levels when you hit 14, I'm sure your dm will love the cheese you bring then. It's full of flavor, in more then one way. :smallbiggrin:

Yorrin
2010-05-22, 05:04 PM
Standard race kinda screws up my attempts to contribute to this- because if you're good I digesting cheese I can give you a
Wild Feral Yuan Ti Encforer Incarnate Construct Half Minotaur Warforged
with 0LA. That' like a +14 Str and Large in addition to various other irrelevant goodies (lots of Con, for example). With that just go
Barbarian 1/Dungeoncrasher 6/Hulking Hurler 3/Cancer Mage 1/x 2.
With all the usual Power Attack/Leap Attack/Pounce shenanigans as well as arbitrarily high strength, oh and Dungeoncrasher or Hulking Hurler if you want to prove that the same character can kill him three different ways. But that's more cheese that is probably allowed.

Reducing cheese only in the slightest you could get a Necropolitan Whisper Gnome Wizard 7/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Tainted Scholar 1, but that's prolly still a bit too cheezy.

playswithfire
2010-05-22, 05:21 PM
No Cleric?

Wizard.

No Cleric? Ur-Priest.

Monk 1/Arcane X 4/Ur-Priest 8. Comes complete with SR 20 against divine spells, which you can boost by 5 with Drazzix's Vest from DMG II and by another 2 with Boost Spell Resistance from BoVB

Prodan
2010-05-22, 10:28 PM
Sorcerer. Arcane Preparation Arcane Fusion. Magic Missile. Prepared Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion.

VirOath
2010-05-22, 11:56 PM
I believe there is a Runescarred Barbarian PrC, one of the use activated abilities is an Anti-magic field centered on yourself. Build into a basic charger, AMF, and watch him cry as Mountain Man knocks down his crippled magic butt. All of his buff spells, his AC, his to hit, his stats, all go kaput, as well as his damage output.


The reason why this is insult to injury is because it's a branch off of the path that you started on.

If you don't want that route, and still want to be a non magic character, the Mage Slayer line is very effective (Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Defense) at ignoring defense boosts from magical buff spells and miss chance.

If you really want to be a prick about it, Necropolitan as mentioned before, but wear a ring of Protection From Positive Energy. Pretty much makes you immune to all positive energy channeling effects, including Heal, and Turning Attempts if I remember right. Use to hand those out like candy to less disposable undead when I played a necromancer.

Another_Poet
2010-05-23, 01:47 AM
I think you should boast how you're going to do it with a straight Fighter13... but then max the ftr's cross-class UMD and but out some high-DC Disintegrates on the poor guy.

As others have said, wizard or druid can kill this guy without even meaning to, just by accident while reaching for their morning coffee.

Fortuna
2010-05-23, 01:51 AM
Sorcerer. Arcane Preparation Arcane Fusion. Magic Missile. Prepared Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion.

Is that an aleph-null sorcerer?

Krazddndfreek
2010-05-23, 05:12 AM
Hiya Doc. I cant recal exactly but i believe his AC with armour is around 34.
Not high Dex due to big armour but i can find this out as i get to use his stats to make my opposition.

He is well statted - not amazing but well statted.
And thats not all he sticks to - they are just the bits he likes to use

That sounds almost like you could kill him with Shivering Touch... :smalltongue:

You probably could with a maximized one. Invis first though.