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AstralFire
2010-05-22, 06:10 PM
Possible with a bigger selection of Exalted Feats that don't suck?

e.g. Wings of Glory [Exalted]
Just walking on water is for lamers.
Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Stigmata, Nimbus of Light
Benefit: You may use a standard action to grow wings of light, and gain a flight speed of 60 ft (good). These wings are a Supernatural effect, and shed light as the Daylight spell, possessing a caster level equal to your character level. Any effect which dispels or suppresses Daylight has an identical effect on your wings of glory, which are functionally similar to a third-level spell. If this light is removed or suppressed by any means, then you cease flight and begin to float to the ground as if under the effects of a Feather Fall spell. You may fly for a maximum of 10 minutes per hour.

Lev
2010-05-22, 06:14 PM
Possible with a bigger selection of Exalted Feats that don't suck?

e.g. Wings of Glory [Exalted]
Just walking on water is for lamers.
Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Stigmata, Nimbus of Light
Benefit: You gain a flight speed of 60 ft. Maneuverability is, of course, good. Seriously. When flying, you grow wings which shed light as the Daylight spell. If this light is suppressed by any means, then you cease flight and begin to float to the ground as if under the effects of a Feather Fall spell.

You don't fix VoP by further unbalancing character choice options. The problem with VoP is that it can be used by classes who already compensate for not having the ability to use the magical items in the first place.
If you wanted to balance VoP you'd make it so VoP doesn't stack with the rules that intentionally accomplish the same thing.

But I do like that feat, I'd change it so it had to have at least a standard action to start it as a (Su), limited times per day, and you need to maintain concentration to keep using it for 5m/level tops.

AstralFire
2010-05-22, 06:17 PM
The thread is 'fix VoP'

The thread is not 'fix stupid classes I don't allow without nerfing anyway, and Incarnum, because I'm too lazy to learn how that works/spend the money on a book for it.'

:P

Zergrusheddie
2010-05-22, 06:19 PM
Well, a Druid with items is still better than a Druid with VoP. And Monks are utterly screwed by VoP sadly. VoP is difficult to balance because there are a lot of things that demand items in order to survive. DR is one of them. Also, it is very difficult to explain why a VoP character would be venturing into a dungeon with a load of loot frenzied people...

It's a decent feat idea. It means that a level 2 spell doesn't punk a level 20 non-caster with VoP.

Lev
2010-05-22, 06:19 PM
The thread is 'fix VoP'

The thread is not 'fix stupid classes I don't allow without nerfing anyway, and Incarnum, because I'm too lazy to learn how that works/spend the money on a book for it.'

:P
<3 [Link Removed by Lev]

AstralFire
2010-05-22, 06:21 PM
My interest is purely in the idea of making VoP an interesting option, one that actually grants abilities widely associated with being holy. Every single Tier 1 and half of the Tier 2s I ban or nerf considerably, same for T6 and half of Tier 5. VoP's issues there are not VoP's issues; they are an artifact of D&D's particularly strained conceit of balance.


<3

1) Delete that, it's illegal and not allowed here.
2) I've read through Incarnum before enough to know that it bores me, not interested, not going to deal with it.

Gnorman
2010-05-22, 06:22 PM
That's a bad idea, Lev. I'd remove that link post-haste.

Boci
2010-05-22, 06:25 PM
So can the daylight spell be dispelled to end the flying? If so what is the CL? Character level?

AstralFire
2010-05-22, 06:25 PM
Changes made to opening feat. Danke.

Lev
2010-05-22, 06:25 PM
That's a bad idea, Lev. I'd remove that link post-haste.
Understood, thank you.
I've always been on the side of sampling a product before buying it, no insult intended.

The Mentalist
2010-05-22, 06:26 PM
Maybe give VOP the Winged or Half Celestial templates at a given level (7-9?) it would give them wings, reasonably handy.

But yes. I think with more good Exalted feats it's doable.

AstralFire
2010-05-22, 06:28 PM
Understood, thank you.
I've always been on the side of sampling a product before buying it, no insult intended.

Understandable. It's just not something that adds to the game for me; I have taken a look before, and didn't find the concept interesting, which immediately sinks any interest in the mechanics.


Maybe give VOP the Winged or Half Celestial templates at a given level (7-9?) it would give them wings, reasonably handy.

But yes. I think with more good Exalted feats it's doable.

That's kind of a forced thing. Not everyone should be granted flight automatically, esp. with permanent wings - there's a wide variety of things that could conceivably be covered.

Flickerdart
2010-05-22, 06:33 PM
Perhaps extend the benefits of the feat to a Paladin's mount?

AstralFire
2010-05-22, 06:38 PM
Refresh my memory as I am not looking at my copy of BoED; is there anything glaring that would come up as a mistake if you made a feat that let mounts and animal companions benefit from your exalted feats? Removed from the issue of Druid Animal Companions being too strong; I'm thinking about the Ranger here.

Boci
2010-05-22, 06:47 PM
Refresh my memory as I am not looking at my copy of BoED; is there anything glaring that would come up as a mistake if you made a feat that let mounts and animal companions benefit from your exalted feats? Removed from the issue of Druid Animal Companions being too strong; I'm thinking about the Ranger here.

Looking over the feats available:
Stigmata could be problematic if the PC expects his animal companion to take the con damage.
You should specify that it does not work in reverse, you cannot get a template meant for your animal companion.

Tavar
2010-05-22, 06:49 PM
For vow of poverty, why not this fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428). Seems to address most of the issues, while not giving players too much.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-22, 07:08 PM
VoP needs to be fixed quite a lot, including easing restrictions a bit (you can own nothing that costs more than 1 gp, except for class features that are worth money, such as spellbooks, which can be upgraded with 1 XP for every 5 gp they would otherwise cost; you can carry magic items without penalty, though not with the intent of using them for your own benefit; you may use magic items on another's behalf, such as feeding a healing potion to an ally, or using a scroll of heal on another; likewise, you can utilize magical items in times of dire need, such as to protect an innocent from certain doom, but only when other avenues of dealing with the situation have been explored and failed). It also needs some way to get the feat back if you've been forced to break the vow.

I wouldn't mind having the following exalted feat:


PURIFIED SOUL [Exalted, Incarnum]
Your soul exudes purity, and you have learned to shape this pure energy outside of your own body.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty
Benefits: You may take any [incarnum] feat that you qualify for, as well as any of the general feats listed in Table 3-3: Feats on page 36 of Magic of Incarnum (except for Necrocarnum Acolyte, which is forbidden) as exalted feats granted by Vow of Poverty.

In addition, once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat. For every 2 essentia you invest, you gain 1 point of exalted essentia that is indistinguishable from normal essentia, except it can be invested in another [incarnum] feat of your choice without remaining invested for the full 24 hours. In other words, exalted essentia treat [incarnum] feats (other than Purified Soul) as soulmelds for the purposes of investing, uninvesting, and reinvesting them throughout the day. Once the amount of essentia invested in this feat is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours.

You gain 1 point of essentia.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-22, 07:30 PM
You don't fix VoP by further unbalancing character choice options. The problem with VoP is that it can be used by classes who already compensate for not having the ability to use the magical items in the first place.
If you wanted to balance VoP you'd make it so VoP doesn't stack with the rules that intentionally accomplish the same thing.

It doesn't. Endure Elements doesn't stack with the spell of the same name; Exalted Strike is an Enhancement bonus (and so doesn't stack with Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang); Sustenance doesn't stack with Create Food and Water; Deflection doesn't stack with Shield of Faith; Natural Armor doesn't stack with the Barkskin spell; Mind Shielding doesn't stack with Nondetection, Mind Blank, or Undetectable Alignment; Damage Reduction doesn't stack with the spells that produce it (Such as Righteous Might); and so on. I'm kinda curious what you're looking at?

While you need to look carefully at balancing the feats for it, making feats to help with situations where certain abilities are necessary and normally come from equipment equipment (Silver, Cold Iron, or Adamantine DR; flying opponents; Plot Weapons; et cetera) is pretty much necessary for noncasters to make good use of the Vow of Poverty - and such feats are lacking in the existing ruleset.



But I do like that feat, I'd change it so it had to have at least a standard action to start it as a (Su), limited times per day, and you need to maintain concentration to keep using it for 5m/level tops.
If it requires continuous concentration, it's kinda pointless, as it means that you can't fly up and hit the flying bad guy with an Unarmed Strike (as Concentration requires a standard action each round).

Stycotl
2010-05-22, 09:01 PM
i think that vop is perfectly playable with a good selection of homebrew exalted feats. i generally allow players to homebrew exalted feats that are very specialized to their individual vop characters, in order to make sure that they get something worthwhile.

here are two of my own exalted feats:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94571

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78632

pretty specialized, but i have found them to be handy.

Runestar
2010-05-22, 09:12 PM
The thread is 'fix VoP'

The thread is not 'fix stupid classes I don't allow without nerfing anyway, and Incarnum, because I'm too lazy to learn how that works/spend the money on a book for it.'

:P

And further clarification, fix means to rebalance a feat which is otherwise too weak, not tone it down as it is deemed to be too powerful. :smallwink:

balistafreak
2010-05-23, 12:57 AM
You could go with the incredibly silly "sort-of-kind-of vague text trumps blatantly obvious table" reading.

The sentence goes something like (from memory) "At 1st level you get a bonus exalted feat, and another bonus feat at 2nd level and every even level afterwards". You claim that the part of the written line that says "and another bonus feat" is not referring to "a bonus exalted feat". You do have to take one Exalted feat at first level, but that one Exalted feat is often at least somewhat useful. (It's when you have three or more that they start getting pointless.)

In this way you end up with a boatload of feats. By 6th level you're +1 generic feat (in addition to the extra Exalted feat) over a non VoP in addition to all of the VoP benefits, and it only gets better from there. It shifts character optimization from "make the most of my WBL" to "make the most of my feats". Incarnum have even more of a field day with VoP, Psionics do pretty good as well, and even martial types who are normally slaves to their equipment can start getting somewhere with that many bonus feats. No really, with enough Sourcebooks feats are almost on the level of WBL, with the benefit of never being able to be stripped away.

Even with this incredibly stupid reading, money and items are still more breakable in the long run, though. :smallwink:

Prodan
2010-05-23, 01:07 AM
I've always through of fixing VoP by allowing it to provide the benefits of up to X gp of magical items, where X is a fraction of the WBL the player would normally have.

Fortuna
2010-05-23, 01:18 AM
I've always through of fixing VoP by allowing it to provide the benefits of up to X gp of magical items, where X is a fraction of the WBL the player would normally have.

I'm not sure how well that would work, simply because you still get necessities later than anyone else.

Prodan
2010-05-23, 01:21 AM
I'm not sure how well that would work, simply because you still get necessities later than anyone else.

Depends on what the fraction is.

Lev
2010-05-23, 01:21 AM
I'm kinda curious what you're looking at?

If it requires continuous concentration, it's kinda pointless, as it means that you can't fly up and hit the flying bad guy with an Unarmed Strike (as Concentration requires a standard action each round).
I'm looking at a Gith-Z monk with maxed wis and dex going for apostle of peace which allows magic items as long as they further boost AC.
That's more than 40AC btw.

The point would be you get to fly around at will as a feat.

Tavar
2010-05-23, 01:51 AM
Unlimited fly is good because it aids in combat maneuverability. Your version doesn't.

Optimator
2010-05-23, 02:59 AM
Meh, I never found VoP that bad. I never pictured it as a way to make your character good, but playable at all within the poverty-prone ascetic framework. Better Exalted feats would be the biggest improvement I can think of though--great place to work.

Lev
2010-05-23, 03:32 AM
Unlimited fly is good because it aids in combat maneuverability. Your version doesn't.
My version is worth a feat.

SilveryCord
2010-05-23, 09:10 AM
But it doesn't solve the issue with VoP that they're trying to fix, which is that the Vow makes you completely impotent against flying enemies.

Runestar
2010-05-23, 09:12 AM
But it doesn't solve the issue with VoP that they're trying to fix, which is that the Vow makes you completely impotent against flying enemies.

I guess the other solution would be to bribe your party wizard to cast fly on you when the need arises. Not every solution has to be provided by the individual players themselves. They are allowed to work as a team and help shore up one another's shortcomings, you know. :smallbiggrin:

Prodan
2010-05-23, 09:18 AM
You should also be able to stand your own, since you cannot always count on support from your party; what if you are separated, or they are incapacitated?

Thurbane
2010-05-23, 09:18 AM
Nothing says a VoP character can't have a cohort who buffs them, or a familiar able to use wands?

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-23, 09:25 AM
I offer Drolyt's homebrew version of VoP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) which I quite like. Use as you wish.

Mongoose87
2010-05-23, 09:28 AM
I offer Drolyt's homebrew version of VoP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) which I quite like. Use as you wish.

Ninja'd (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8544152&postcount=16), my friend

SilveryCord
2010-05-23, 09:28 AM
Nothing says a VoP character can't have a cohort who buffs them, or a familiar able to use wands?
I think that would kind of miss the point of the vow of poverty.


I guess the other solution would be to bribe your party wizard to cast fly on you when the need arises. Not every solution has to be provided by the individual players themselves. They are allowed to work as a team and help shore up one another's shortcomings, you know.

Working as a team does not mean that you are a completely useless body in the majority of high level encounters unless your wizard casts Fly on you. (And of course, instead of casting fly, a wizard could just end the entire encounter, but that's really a moot point)

Jack_Simth
2010-05-23, 09:32 AM
My version is worth a feat.
Umm... if you consider Improved Toughness to be the benchmark, sure.

But your version doesn't do anything for the top reason for actually needing flight: Flying opponents with ranged attacks. Your basic CR 7 Succubus can fly in circles and spam Charm Monster / Suggestion until the Vow of Poverty Monk rolls a one, and a monk on the ground can do zip about it. With AstralFire's version, the Vow of Poverty Monk could do something about it; with yours, the monk could not.

I'm looking at a Gith-Z monk with maxed wis and dex going for apostle of peace which allows magic items as long as they further boost AC.
That's more than 40AC btw.
That's not a race I'm familiar with. I'm also not finding Gith-Z on WotC's Monster Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablesort=1), although I am finding multiple entries for things that start with "Gith" - where's it from?

Also: Almost no magic items that increase AC will actually stack with a Vow of Poverty / Vow of Peace / Vow of Nonviolence character that can get the Apostle of Peace PrC - simply because the character has most such AC sources extremely high already.

The point would be you get to fly around at will as a feat.Which is rather useless, of itself, as it can't be done when it will be most needed: Battle.

Prodan
2010-05-23, 09:39 AM
Nothing says a VoP character can't have a cohort who buffs them, or a familiar able to use wands?
Using broken feats to justify taking bad feats is not the path to victory.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-23, 09:39 AM
Ninja'd (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8544152&postcount=16), my friend

:smallannoyed: Ninja's are supposed to be in Australia, not in the internet.

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 09:48 AM
Umm... if you consider Improved Toughness to be the benchmark, sure.

But your version doesn't do anything for the top reason for actually needing flight: Flying opponents with ranged attacks. Your basic CR 7 Succubus can fly in circles and spam Charm Monster / Suggestion until the Vow of Poverty Monk rolls a one, and a monk on the ground can do zip about it. With AstralFire's version, the Vow of Poverty Monk could do something about it; with yours, the monk could not.
That's not a race I'm familiar with. I'm also not finding Gith-Z on WotC's Monster Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablesort=1), although I am finding multiple entries for things that start with "Gith" - where's it from?

Also: Almost no magic items that increase AC will actually stack with a Vow of Poverty / Vow of Peace / Vow of Nonviolence character that can get the Apostle of Peace PrC - simply because the character has most such AC sources extremely high already.
Which is rather useless, of itself, as it can't be done when it will be most needed: Battle.

I think 'Githzerai' was the implication.

I'll make a homebrew thread with more ideas in a bit.

Prodan
2010-05-23, 09:51 AM
I think 'Githzerai' was the implication.

I'll make a homebrew thread with more ideas in a bit.

Oh my god, it's homebrew.

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 10:00 AM
...? Well... yeah?

Grumman
2010-05-23, 10:27 AM
I have a number of problems with the Vow of Poverty:

1. In my opinion, the benefits of the vow should have less overlap with the things it is designed to replace. It should provide benefits, but they should be different benefits.
2. It adds nothing to your interactions with the world. You'll never get someone wondering whether they should break their vow, because the costs of doing so are so high compared to what you're getting back.
3. I feel the feat as-is is misguided. Giving up the tools that let you fight for Good is not Good, it's stupid. Giving up the tools you need just to have them replaced for free isn't Good either, just like donating a house to charity isn't a good act on your part if you're going to be reimbursed in full. The vow should be about sacrificing the perks, not the tools that make you good at what you do.

And while I'm at it:

The problem I have with most of the other Sacred Vows is that they work stupid. Take the Vow of Abstinence, for example. You get a +4 bonus on Fort saves vs. drugs and poisons, as long as you don't get drugged. This is bad for two reasons:

1. It's a sacred vow that protects you from being drugged, that stops working when someone drugs you. This is stupid.
2. It doesn't add anything to your interactions with the world. All it does is make it so that someone who was going to drug you anyway has to work a little harder at it. This is boring.

My suggested solution is that you only lose the +4 bonus if you deliberately break the vow, and you can regain it by atoning (and explaining why it was necessary to break your vow). However, if you fail your save against a drug - either taken willingly or unwillingly - you take a -1 morale penalty to saves for a certain amount of time (24 hours or until the drug's effects end, whichever is longer?). This way if someone's hellbent on drugging you the vow continues to provide a benefit, but it also means that some Sith LordBlackguard who takes the time to construct your own special Room 101 to break your will will actually get something out of it.

Thoughts?

The Shadowmind
2010-05-23, 10:52 AM
Okay make it so:
You only lose the benefits of a vow if you deliberately break them(No more sneaking items in the VoP'ers pocket to screw over there character.
You can ask for spells to be cast on you, as long as they are freely given(So you can beg for spells, but not pay for them)

At either level 6 or 9, gain the flight a with a good maneuverability equal to your land speed.(A warlock can get this easily and is hardly broken).

Maybe at 12 level, attacks ignore DR(To combat the more meaningful DR you could never overcome with your fists/cheap weapon).

Deity granted items, and relics with no price can be used without breaking the vow, but can only be used till they have severed there purpose. (There purpose is being whatever the Plot demands, meaning the VoP'er can have the sword of plot, but loses it when the Plot no longer demands it).

And, most importantly a VoP'er can regain the benefits with a Atonement spell, but the VoP'er must pay 250 exp x level, the caster doesn't have to pay anything but the time to cast the spell. So it is a bad idea to break it, but it can be fixed.

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 10:53 AM
Mostly agreed.

Here's my view on VoP:

[11:40] <AstralFire> VoP will never be up to par or as flexible as money, no. But right now it's flat out unusable.
[11:40] <AstralFire> I just want to cover some basic 'holy' things that you should be able to do as a high level saint in a fantasy game
[11:40] <PSOAddict> well, sure. D&D doesn't have wire transfers though--since you're travelling around, maybe you donate your money to different temples
[11:41] <PSOAddict> Heironeous gives you this rank for donating this much money and that gives you this benefit
[11:41] <PSOAddict> etc
[11:41] <PSOAddict> alright, well that's a solid design goal
[11:43] <AstralFire> Basically, am okay with VoP not giving coverage to keep you necessarily on the same tier as you'd be with smart money expenditure
[11:43] <AstralFire> but you should be able to do some neat things with the power of your faith
[11:44] <AstralFire> also VoP is a decent safeguard in low money campaigns without a magic mart or crafter or if you're bad with money.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-23, 11:11 AM
I guess the other solution would be to bribe your party wizard to cast fly on you when the need arises. Not every solution has to be provided by the individual players themselves. They are allowed to work as a team and help shore up one another's shortcomings, you know. :smallbiggrin:Well, technically, VoP characters are disallowed from asking for spellcasting at all, since spells have a definitive cost, laid out in the PHB. The feat allows spellcasting received from a wand, staff, or scroll, but not from a companion.

Ain't rules-mongering a botch?

Also, the text in chapter 2 regarding voluntary poverty says that VoP characters should beg expensive material components for their spells off of companions; unfortunately, that isn't one of the items allowed from Vow of Poverty, and thus the book is advocating you to willingly and irrevocably lose the feat by breaking your vow.

Stupid book is stupid.

Malificus
2010-05-23, 11:24 AM
The feat allows spellcasting received from a wand, staff, or scroll,
As a specification about how you personally can't use those.

but not from a companion.
It does nothing to suggest that you can't have a companion cast spells on you.

So even purchasing the assistance of am unrelated mage is doable, as he's not a magic item or material possession.

Toliudar
2010-05-23, 12:01 PM
I was looking at the series of Wild feats (the 3.5 ones), and if you substitute usage 2-3 times per day for the usage of a wildshape, most could be easily retooled as a Sacred feat. These tend to help with mobility, or add extended utility to natural attacks. Sounds about perfect for VoP. Thoughts?

Jack_Simth
2010-05-23, 12:40 PM
I was looking at the series of Wild feats (the 3.5 ones), and if you substitute usage 2-3 times per day for the usage of a wildshape, most could be easily retooled as a Sacred feat. These tend to help with mobility, or add extended utility to natural attacks. Sounds about perfect for VoP. Thoughts?
It's a place to start looking, at least. But then, if you're already a Druid, most of the problem is moot, as you've got Air Walk, Flame Strike, Call Lightning, and other spells that can deal with opponents out of melee range. Oh yes, and don't forget Wildshape to deal with maneuverability.

Lev
2010-05-23, 03:51 PM
Umm... if you consider Improved Toughness to be the benchmark, sure.
Of course I do, +10HP at level 1 and another 1/level. What level 1 character wouldn't want another 10HP? Well, more like 20HP by level 10, smart investment IMO.


But your version doesn't do anything for the top reason for actually needing flight: Flying opponents with ranged attacks. Your basic CR 7 Succubus can fly in circles and spam Charm Monster / Suggestion until the Vow of Poverty Monk rolls a one, and a monk on the ground can do zip about it. With AstralFire's version, the Vow of Poverty Monk could do something about it; with yours, the monk could not.
Does a ravage count as breaking the VoP rule? Cuz you could just shoot a bow. Now that I think about it, it's not really a problem with VoP as much as it is about being a melee character who has no help from her allies. Balanced, yo.


That's not a race I'm familiar with. I'm also not finding Gith-Z on WotC's Monster Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablesort=1), although I am finding multiple entries for things that start with "Gith" - where's it from?

Githzerai Racial Traits:

- +6 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence: Githzerai are incredibly quick and agile, and they trust intuition more than logic.

- Medium: As Medium creatures, githzerai have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

- Githzerai base land speed is 30 feet.

- Darkvision out to 60 feet.

- Naturally Psionic: Githzerai gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.

- Psi-Like Abilities: 3/day - inertial armor, psionic daze, catfall, concussion blast. Githzerai of 11th level also gain plane shift 1/day. Manifester level is equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DCs are Charisma-based.

- Power Resistance (Ex): A githzerai has power resistance equal to his/her Hit Dice +5.

- Automatic Languages: Common, Gith. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Celestrial, Draconic, Slaad, Undercommon

- Favored Class: Monk

- Level Adjustment: +2


Also: Almost no magic items that increase AC will actually stack with a Vow of Poverty / Vow of Peace / Vow of Nonviolence character that can get the Apostle of Peace PrC - simply because the character has most such AC sources extremely high already.
Which is rather useless, of itself, as it can't be done when it will be most needed: Battle.
Who says you are using the magical effects of your armor at all? If by just having the armor enchantments justifies putting it on you get the base stats of whatever armor you use.
If you build it right you can just go apostle of peace and with the right domains you can easily stack to 40 into diplomacy (via domains) by level ECL14-16, at which point you have around 40AC, weapons break against your skin, and optionally you can summon 28HD monsters and mind compulsion to stop fighting.

HALLOWED ARE THE ORI

Tavar
2010-05-23, 04:02 PM
What version are you looking at? Improved Toughness gives +1hp per level, and even your 'improved' version is hardly worth it, except at very low level games. +20 Hp at level 20 is basically worthless, especially for a feat.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-23, 05:33 PM
While a VoP character can't use a Bow (can't own/use Martial Weapons), but could easily throw daggers (non-masterwork), use a sling, even (for a Monk) throw (non-masterwork) Shurikens.

An Unarmed Swordsage with VoP can do Leap tricks that quickly become rediculous... not to mention shadow-jaunt stuff.

Even a Monk can do some quite impressive things, if you do even a few multi-classing tricks or Tattooed Monk or Kensai (Throwing enchantment on your fists? :smallbiggrin:).

Lev
2010-05-23, 06:14 PM
What version are you looking at? Improved Toughness gives +1hp per level, and even your 'improved' version is hardly worth it, except at very low level games. +20 Hp at level 20 is basically worthless, especially for a feat.

Complete Warrior - Chapter 3 - Page 101
You are significantly tougher than normal.
Req- Base Fort +2
Benefit- Gain HP Equal to your current HD+1, each time you gain a HD you get +1 to it.
-------
In game terms, this means that a HD6 class will survive an extra sneak attack, and a HD10 class will survive an extra greatsword wound. That in itself contextually is worth a feat.

But if your DM is running a DBZ-ish campaign I can see why 20HP wouldn't be useful, just like if everyone could fly then getting improved trip would be kinda silly.
Oh, and good luck getting from level 1-20. :smallsmile:

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 06:18 PM
Improved Toughness isn't worthless (except at level 20 - damage is just too exponential there except at very low levels of game mastery), but it's still - by no means - on the higher end of feats.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-23, 06:44 PM
Complete Warrior - Chapter 3 - Page 101
You are significantly tougher than normal.
Req- Base Fort +2
Benefit- Gain HP Equal to your current HD+1, each time you gain a HD you get +1 to it.
-------
In game terms, this means that a HD6 class will survive an extra sneak attack, and a HD10 class will survive an extra greatsword wound. That in itself contextually is worth a feat.

But if your DM is running a DBZ-ish campaign I can see why 20HP wouldn't be useful, just like if everyone could fly then getting improved trip would be kinda silly.
Oh, and good luck getting from level 1-20. :smallsmile:That means that you add +1 to every HD you gain - ie, every time you gain a level, you gain +1 hp.

It's not HD+HD+1 at each level; otherwise, that'd be a bit too good.

Lev
2010-05-23, 06:45 PM
Improved Toughness isn't worthless (except at level 20 - damage is just too exponential there except at very low levels of game mastery), but it's still - by no means - on the higher end of feats.
I would agree, but contextually it fits a lot of scenarios, and contextually it's useful both for having a more enjoyable RP experience (basically standardized luck aka lesser % injury taken) or you could RP it like it actually does damage you but you play it up by playing the battered hero role.


That means that you add +1 to every HD you gain - ie, every time you gain a level, you gain +1 hp.

It's not HD+HD+1 at each level; otherwise, that'd be a bit too good.
It's:
1) Gain 1HD+1 HP
2) Every time you gain an additional HD you gain 1 additional HP.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-23, 07:01 PM
I would agree, but contextually it fits a lot of scenarios, and contextually it's useful both for having a more enjoyable RP experience (basically standardized luck aka lesser % injury taken) or you could RP it like it actually does damage you but you play it up by playing the battered hero role.


It's:
1) Gain 1HD+1 HP
2) Every time you gain an additional HD you gain 1 additional HP.It says, "You gain a number of hit points equal to your current hit dice." That means if you're a 10 HD character (a 10th level ranger, for instance), you gain a number of hp equal to your number of Hit Dice, or +10. Then you gain +1 hp per Hit Die you gain forever after.

Had it said 'equal to your current Hit Die, then you'd be correct.

It's slightly wonky, but that's what it says.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-23, 07:03 PM
Yeah - it's basically +2 Con for a feat, but only for the purposes of determining HP.

Tavar
2010-05-23, 07:17 PM
Yeah - it's basically +2 Con for a feat, but only for the purposes of determining HP.

Which considering the number of ways one can boost Con with items, and how precious feats are, is a bad trade in most cases.


While a VoP character can't use a Bow (can't own/use Martial Weapons), but could easily throw daggers (non-masterwork), use a sling, even (for a Monk) throw (non-masterwork) Shurikens.

The problem here is low range increments(10ft for daggers), low damage unless you're cripplingly specialized, and even then you can't get around DR(besides magic, if you get your ammunition enchanted, and even then you'll end up needing multiple castings of the spell).

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-23, 07:19 PM
...? Well... yeah?

It was a reference to "Oh my god it's AstralFire!", which seems to have decreased in use considerably recently (but that's to be expected, it's fairly old now).

On-topic, looks good to me. I have a terrible eye for balance and a habit of not caring about it much anyway but shoring up the VoP is probably a good idea if it's to be usable at even mid-levels.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-23, 07:29 PM
Of course I do, +10HP at level 1 and another 1/level. What level 1 character wouldn't want another 10HP? Well, more like 20HP by level 10, smart investment IMO.

Ah... that's not how it works, but others have already covered that.


Does a ravage count as breaking the VoP rule?
Ravages do not break Exalted status per RAW, but they are posessions that do not have a listed exception for having them - which means yes, they break the Vow of Poverty.

Cuz you could just shoot a bow. Now that I think about it, it's not really a problem with VoP as much as it is about being a melee character who has no help from her allies. Balanced, yo.
Bow's Martial, not Simple, so is forbidden by the Vow of Poverty. Slings and crossbows have that pesky reload time (and you can't purchase replacement ammo, as that would require you to use money... and you can't use found masterwork ammo, so you basically need to routinely run across mooks of sufficiently low level that they're carrying strictly mundane ammo of your choice...), and the range increment on thrown daggers is quite severe (10 feet). Oh yes, and most Monk specific weapons are Exotic... also off the list of allowed weapons, so no go there. Not that, you know, your Apostle of Peace build can really use weapons anyway....


Githzerai Racial Traits:

- +6 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence: Githzerai are incredibly quick and agile, and they trust intuition more than logic.

- Medium: As Medium creatures, githzerai have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

- Githzerai base land speed is 30 feet.

- Darkvision out to 60 feet.

- Naturally Psionic: Githzerai gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.

- Psi-Like Abilities: 3/day - inertial armor, psionic daze, catfall, concussion blast. Githzerai of 11th level also gain plane shift 1/day. Manifester level is equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DCs are Charisma-based.

- Power Resistance (Ex): A githzerai has power resistance equal to his/her Hit Dice +5.

- Automatic Languages: Common, Gith. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Celestrial, Draconic, Slaad, Undercommon

- Favored Class: Monk

- Level Adjustment: +2


Who says you are using the magical effects of your armor at all? If by just having the armor enchantments justifies putting it on you get the base stats of whatever armor you use.
Err... Apostle of Peace doesn't let you use armor... and the Exalted AC bonus from Vow of Poverty (boosted by other feats in the build) doesn't stack with armor anyway.


If you build it right you can just go apostle of peace and with the right domains you can easily stack to 40 into diplomacy (via domains) by level ECL14-16, at which point you have around 40AC, weapons break against your skin, and optionally you can summon 28HD monsters and mind compulsion to stop fighting.

HALLOWED ARE THE ORI
I think you might want to double-check that build... but even with that, one highly specific build that makes use of a particular feat does not mean it's the feat itself what's broken... especially considering that if you modify the PrC in question (Apostle of Peace) to remove the requirement for Vow of Poverty from it, then recalculate everything using WBL to focus on such, you get a higher AC character with higher AC, higher save DC's, and so on.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-23, 08:01 PM
Here's another feat for use by VoP characters.
CELESTIAL ALLY [Exalted]
Your personality is as a magnet to Good creatures everywhere, and your pacts with the angels allow you to call on your furry friends from the celestial planes to serve and protect you.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty
Benefits: You can reach into your pockets, or into some enclosed space such as a stone crevice or up another creature's sleeve as a move action. You gain the benefits of a bag of tricks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/wondrousitems.htm#bagofTricks) a number of times per day equal to 2 plus your Charisma modifier. The animal you pull forth has the celestial template applied, and serves you for 10 minutes, or a number of minutes equal to your Effective Character Level, whichever is more. Unlike a standard bag of tricks, you choose which celestial animal you summon with each use. Such creatures as you summon in this manner are the same ones each time, and so, if killed, can be summoned again the following round to relay information to you, if necessary.

Animals summoned in this way (as well as whatever equipment they may hold upon summoning) do not count as your possessions, and may be used on your behalf without breaking your vows.

Special: This feat may be taken up to three times. The first time you take it, you receive the benefits of a gray bag of tricks. The second time, a rust bag. The third, a tan bag. Each time you take the Celestial Ally feat increases the number of times you can use this feat per day by 2. The second and third times you take this feat require you to be a minimum of 6 and 12 ECL, respectively.

If you willingly subject the celestial animals granted by this feat to cruelty or abuse without clear need and for an overwhelmingly good cause (as determined by the DM), you lose the ability to use this feat until you contact the celestial animal you have abused and made restitution on par with the abuse it suffered (generally by a quest of some sort, a heartfelt apology, and a casting of the atonement spell).

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 08:03 PM
That's brilliant.

Lev
2010-05-23, 08:11 PM
Ah... that's not how it works, but others have already covered that.
They covered that a 10HD character gains 10HP+1 and 1 after for each level, yes.


Ravages do not break Exalted status per RAW, but they are posessions that do not have a listed exception for having them - which means yes, they break the Vow of Poverty.
So get your paladin ally to keep a ready supply of little bits of golden ice, and have the casters familiar to gather them up after. Slings can be worn as clothing, thats what I always do when I play monk... cloth sling, it's multi-application! If you are apostle of peace you can just tank while the rest of your party deals with everything.


Err... Apostle of Peace doesn't let you use armor... and the Exalted AC bonus from Vow of Poverty (boosted by other feats in the build) doesn't stack with armor anyway.
Good point.

I'm just on the side of DnD as role-play and teamwork, I'm not entirely into the "I have 10 homebrew flaws justifying me to roleplay better by granting me 10 feats."
But if you want to make an ultimate Goku, then sure.

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 08:14 PM
Most people here aren't into that either, and it's a bit insulting to wave it at them like they are. Demonstration of system knowledge in a discussion of system workings is not the same as a desire to be a munchkin. The better a socially responsible person knows the system, the more contribution they can make to their group, especially if they DM - and there is a high DM population here. And that's to say nothing of homebrew.

Tavar
2010-05-23, 08:16 PM
How are you going to tank? If I was the opponent, I'd kill everyone else, then start targeting you.

Lev
2010-05-23, 08:19 PM
How are you going to tank? If I was the opponent, I'd kill everyone else, then start targeting you.
Does your DM metagame like that?


Most people here aren't into that either, and it's a bit insulting to wave it at them like they are. Demonstration of system knowledge in a discussion of system workings is not the same as a desire to be a munchkin. The better a socially responsible person knows the system, the more contribution they can make to their group, especially if they DM - and there is a high DM population here. And that's to say nothing of homebrew.
Well yes, no offense intended, but isn't this thread about fixing the purely mechanical aspect of how a VoP player in some situations needs to rely on someone else than his fists in combat?

Reynard
2010-05-23, 08:24 PM
There's a difference between meta-gaming and intelligent enemies. Ignoring the dude running around with a stick and wearing rags and instead going for the ones that are flying around and/or clad in magical full plate with glowing weapons and/or eyes falls into the second category.

Tavar
2010-05-23, 08:24 PM
Does your DM metagame like that?

How is it metagaming to target the people who can rewrite reality with their minds, instead of the relatively ineffectual man without weapons or armor? Isn't it more metagaming to have them focus on weak offensively character who's relatively hard to hit, instead of the ones with a strong offense?

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 08:28 PM
Well yes, no offense intended, but isn't this thread about fixing the purely mechanical aspect of how a VoP player in some situations needs to rely on someone else than his fists in combat?

This thread is about giving the VoP the ability to not be more of a hindrance to a party than an assistance at high levels, and giving thematically appropriate abilities - because presently, I feel the number of options for sacred martial characters is far too low relative to their presence in fantasy writing.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-23, 08:30 PM
They covered that a 10HD character gains 10HP+1 and 1 after for each level, yes.


So get your paladin ally to keep a ready supply of little bits of golden ice, and have the casters familiar to gather them up after. Slings can be worn as clothing, thats what I always do when I play monk... cloth sling, it's multi-application! If you are apostle of peace you can just tank while the rest of your party deals with everything.

Err... as a Simple weapon, you can use a sling, no problems... but the Vow of Poverty feat itself is pretty clear that "Borrowing" things in the manner you appear to be suggesting for the Ravages breaks the vow.


Good point.

I'm just on the side of DnD as role-play and teamwork, I'm not entirely into the "I have 10 homebrew flaws justifying me to roleplay better by granting me 10 feats."
But if you want to make an ultimate Goku, then sure.
Umm... you were the one suggesting that the Vow of Poverty was broken-good. I've just been disassembling your arguments for it.

Lev
2010-05-23, 08:31 PM
How is it metagaming to target the people who can rewrite reality with their minds, instead of the relatively ineffectual man without weapons or armor? Isn't it more metagaming to have them focus on weak offensively character who's relatively hard to hit, instead of the ones with a strong offense?
Depends on the foe, is the foe can read surface thoughts then sure, of if the foe is another human and can succeed at a spellcraft check or sense motive of how each of his opponents are acting and who's a danger and who's not, but the majority of DnD enemies generally can't immediately understand the situation just by looking at it, especially if you break down the door and the apostle goes first and starts swinging around his staff and chanting menacingly... it doesn't matter if he isn't actually doing anything because most of the time the enemies won't know that unless the DM is playing DnD like Guild Wars.


Err... as a Simple weapon, you can use a sling, no problems... but the Vow of Poverty feat itself is pretty clear that "Borrowing" things in the manner you appear to be suggesting for the Ravages breaks the vow.
Aw shucks, well it would have been fun I guess.


Umm... you were the one suggesting that the Vow of Poverty was broken-good. I've just been disassembling your arguments for it.
Great! As long as you're having a good time. :smallsmile:

Tavar
2010-05-23, 08:39 PM
What are you talking about? Higher level enemies generally are casters, or have casters supporting them. They can easily tell what's happening. Plus, visual clues; items glow. Plus, at higher levels, you'll have stories about the party, so the BBEG's can plan around that to a degree.

Boci
2010-05-23, 08:43 PM
Depends on the foe, is the foe can read surface thoughts then sure, of if the foe is another human and can succeed at a spellcraft check or sense motive of how each of his opponents are acting and who's a danger and who's not, but the majority of DnD enemies generally can't immediately understand the situation just by looking at it, especially if you break down the door and the apostle goes first and starts swinging around his staff and chanting menacingly... it doesn't matter if he isn't actually doing anything because most of the time the enemies won't know that unless the DM is playing DnD like Guild Wars.

As a general rule, the best defended enters first. So even using just basic logic like that, a mobil monsters with 10+ inteligence will try to dodge whoever enters first and focus on those behind them.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-23, 08:46 PM
Sense Weakness Feat (Draconomicon): Needs Combat Expertise & Weapon Focus. Allows you to ignore 5pts of DR with weapon you have weapon focus with.

Sanctified Martial Strike: Needs Weapon Focus with a specific weapon (Monk treats Unarmed as manufactured weapon). Treats hands as Good Aligned, extra 1d4 vs. evil outsiders & evil undead, extra 1pt. vs. other evil creatures. (Not that it's really important after 10th level of VoP.)

Ring the Golden Bell (Dragon Magazine Compendium). Needs IUS, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), BAB +5. 1+Wis Mod per day, deal unarmed strike damage at range. Can use all abilities that unarmed strike can use, like Stunning Fist. Range Increment of 5ft+5ft per Wis Mod. Even using point buy... a 16 Wis, +8 from VoP gives 8 uses per day with a 40ft range increment.

Hammer Fist (Dragon Magazine Compendium). When not flurrying, deal 1.5x Str with unarmed strikes.

Snapkick. Gives an extra Unarmed Attack every time you make an attack, for only -2 to hit with attacks. RAW indicates that every Ring the Golden Bell would be two attacks at -2 to hit. :smallbiggrin:

Shall I keep going?

Mystic Muse
2010-05-23, 08:47 PM
Okay, if you have 10 hit dice you get 11 HP from improved toughness.

If you have one hit die (Such as from being level 1) you get 2 hp from improved toughness.

That's how it works.

Any objections?

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 08:47 PM
...I believe you've mistaken this for a monk thread?

Prodan
2010-05-23, 08:49 PM
To be fair, it is that time of week.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-23, 08:50 PM
No, I'm pointing out feats that a VoP character can take... especially a VoP Monk or Unarmed Swordsage.

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 08:52 PM
Those... don't have anything to do with VoP aside Sanctified Martial Strike. o_o

Mystic Muse
2010-05-23, 08:55 PM
Those... don't have anything to do with VoP aside Sanctified Martial Strike. o_o

O_0 it's a Monk Ninja!

Even less deadly than a regular Monk!

it's only use is to infect threads with its talk of low tier ineffective classes!

*Shuns* I hope everybody realizes I'm just joking.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-23, 08:57 PM
Those... don't have anything to do with VoP aside Sanctified Martial Strike. o_o

The Complaint was, a Martial VoP character couldn't fight a flying Succubus. Sense Weakness & Ring the Golden Bell solve that.

Lev
2010-05-23, 08:58 PM
As a general rule, the best defended enters first. So even using just basic logic like that, a mobil monsters with 10+ inteligence will try to dodge whoever enters first and focus on those behind them.
Truth, but it certainly won't look that way.

There's a big difference between basically a dude in jeans and a t-shirt coming in with what appears to be a flamethrower, and a guy in kevlar vesting and a riot shield and a baton.

That's what I'm saying.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-23, 08:58 PM
Sense Weakness Feat (Draconomicon): Needs Combat Expertise & Weapon Focus. Allows you to ignore 5pts of DR with weapon you have weapon focus with.

Sanctified Martial Strike: Needs Weapon Focus with a specific weapon (Monk treats Unarmed as manufactured weapon). Treats hands as Good Aligned, extra 1d4 vs. evil outsiders & evil undead, extra 1pt. vs. other evil creatures. (Not that it's really important after 10th level of VoP.)

Ring the Golden Bell (Dragon Magazine Compendium). Needs IUS, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), BAB +5. 1+Wis Mod per day, deal unarmed strike damage at range. Can use all abilities that unarmed strike can use, like Stunning Fist. Range Increment of 5ft+5ft per Wis Mod. Even using point buy... a 16 Wis, +8 from VoP gives 8 uses per day with a 40ft range increment.

Hammer Fist (Dragon Magazine Compendium). When not flurrying, deal 1.5x Str with unarmed strikes.

Snapkick. Gives an extra Unarmed Attack every time you make an attack, for only -2 to hit with attacks. RAW indicates that every Ring the Golden Bell would be two attacks at -2 to hit. :smallbiggrin:

Shall I keep going?
Okay... so with a really heavy feat investment from a very great many sources (only one of those is an Exalted feat suitable for taking as a Vow of Poverty bonus feat), the Monk can make good use of Vow of Poverty, and not be left crying on the ground when there's aerial opponents about. This doesn't particularly help the other classes that aren't decent casters (Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue), and as heavy as that feat investment is, the strategy only works at the end of the spectrum (level 15+), and even then, only for one or two battles in a day (you're theoretically supposed to have about four). That still doesn't mean that the Vow of Poverty doesn't need fixing.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-23, 08:58 PM
Still only works on unarmed swordsage and Monk.

EDIT: Ninja'd! At least I wasn't Monk ninja'd

Boci
2010-05-23, 09:05 PM
Truth, but it certainly won't look that way.

There's a big difference between basically a dude in jeans and a t-shirt coming in with what appears to be a flamethrower, and a guy in kevlar vesting and a riot shield and a baton.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah sure, I will probably attack the guy with the flame thrower first, although I will be suspicious if he leads the attack and the guy in kevlar follows him. After he hasn't used him flame thrower however, guess who I am switching to.

So congratualtions. Against a creature with no ability to discern the differences in the party members, you may get their attention for 1 round.

Doesn't sound like something you base fight strategies on.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-23, 09:13 PM
Another feat for this (since that's what the OP was asking for). It's strong, but level-appropriate.
EXALTED LEGERDEMAIN [Exalted]
The forces of righteousness have seen fit to bestow upon you legendary magical powers.
Prerequisites: Cha 10+ (see text), Effective Character Level 1+ (see text)
Benefits: You gain the ability to cast an arcane or divine spell as a spell-like ability, which has a caster level equal to your Effective Character Level.

Alternately, you may choose a psionic power to manifest as a psi-like ability. In this case, you gain the [Psionic] subtype, and the power's manifester level is equal to your Effective Character Level.

This is an actual caster level or manifester level, and can be used to qualify for feats and other abilities (such as the Obtain Familiar and Psicrystal Affinity feats, although familiars, psicrystals, animal companions, and similar cannot utilize this feat to qualify for additional companions).

Your effective caster/manifester level must be high enough to cast the spell or manifest the power you choose, and your Charisma must be sufficiently high to use the spell-like or psi-like ability as if you were casting it as a sorcerer or manifesting it as a wilder (10 + the spell's or power's level). The DC of the ability (if any) is 10 + 1/2 your Effective Character Level + your Cha modifier.

The spell or power you choose cannot have the [evil] or [vile] descriptors. It also gains the [good] and [exalted] descriptors, and the damage dealt by it (if any) is [exalted] damage (in addition to any other descriptors it may have, such as [fire] or [sonic]), and is Maximized against creatures with the [evil] subtype and evil-aligned undead.

You do not incur arcane spell failure when using this ability. You must pay any XP cost for the spell or power you use (even if converted to a Supernatural ability), and any gp cost of 5 or greater may be converted to an XP cost, or you may choose to pay the gp cost if you desire. For every 5 gp the spell or power would normally cost, you may spend 1 XP instead (costs of less than 5 gp are waived). You need not have a divine or arcane focus to use this ability unless the spell cannot function without it (such as a pool of ink or water when scrying).

You may use the spell-like or psi-like ability 3 times per day.

Special: Each time you choose this feat, you may choose an additional spell or power to use 3 times per day, or you may choose the same spell or power and gain an additional +3 uses per day.

If you ever willingly commit an evil act using one of the spell-like or psi-like abilities granted by this feat, you lose all benefits granted by all instances of Exalted Legerdemain until you have set right the wrong you have committed (dependent on the DM) and received an atonement spell.

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 09:18 PM
You're making me look like a lazy bastard, Lyc. Stop that. (No, seriously, looks good.)

Prodan
2010-05-23, 09:37 PM
The Complaint was, a Martial VoP character couldn't fight a flying Succubus. Sense Weakness & Ring the Golden Bell solve that.

What do you do if the enemy is flying 60 feet above?

Jack_Simth
2010-05-23, 09:50 PM
What do you do if the enemy is flying 60 feet above?

The ability appears to give a range increment (of 40 feet, with the specific example), which means that if the opponent is 60 feet away, there's a -2 penalty on attack rolls from the distance.

Prodan
2010-05-23, 09:59 PM
I heard it was a fixed ranged attack like an Eldritch Blast. I guess I'd better check the text of the feat.

Thurbane
2010-05-23, 10:22 PM
I think that would kind of miss the point of the vow of poverty.
Maybe vioalte the spririt, but not the letter of the law, assuming the wands belong to the familiar, or cohort.

Using broken feats to justify taking bad feats is not the path to victory.
Yeah, but it's a cheap and dirty option! :smallbiggrin:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-23, 10:35 PM
Except that Vow of Poverty is an exalted feat not a lawful one. You violate the spirit of the feat and you should lose it plain and simple. Finding loopholes in your vows is not very exalted behavior, its quite dishonest and underhanded.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-23, 10:38 PM
Except that Vow of Poverty is an exalted feat not a lawful one. You violate the spirit of the feat and you should lose it plain and simple. Finding loopholes in your vows is not very exalted behavior, its quite dishonest and underhanded.ie, Chaotic.

Which is perfectly in line with a CG Exalted character.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-23, 10:40 PM
Chaotic good characters especially exalted ones would only be dishonest to evil creatures not the divine powers their exalted powers come from.

If a chaotic character believes in his vows at all, he'll care more about the spirit then the letter of them.

Lev
2010-05-23, 10:53 PM
ie, Chaotic.

Which is perfectly in line with a CG Exalted character.
It's perfectly in line with a CG character to shed her vow, not keep it through events or intents that would otherwise cause your god to demerit you.

Thurbane
2010-05-23, 10:53 PM
Except that Vow of Poverty is an exalted feat not a lawful one. You violate the spirit of the feat and you should lose it plain and simple. Finding loopholes in your vows is not very exalted behavior, its quite dishonest and underhanded.
Well, all depends on the DMs ruling, really. As I DM, I would allow it - I can't see much difference between the character expending resources (i.e. feats) to gain a cohort or familiar capable of buffing him, than having the party members do it for free.

This is really in the realms of how the DM interprets the vow...

SilveryCord
2010-05-23, 11:01 PM
Yeah, no, that's pretty blatant disregard for the vow.

Optimystik
2010-05-23, 11:04 PM
The main problem I have with VoP is that its best benefits come too late to make a difference.

- Energy Resistance 5 at level 13? Many races get this at first level, even without being casters.
- Freedom of Movement at 14? It's a 4th-level spell for most casters, and 3rd for sorcerers and wizards (via HoW.)
- At 17, you get Slow Healing 1. Joy.
- At 18, you get True Seeing! Just in time for epic. But if your game goes that high, you're in trouble - WBL continues to scale post-epic, while VoP just stops.



So even purchasing the assistance of am unrelated mage is doable, as he's not a magic item or material possession.

The trouble is that you generally need magic items and material possessions to hire people.
(Unless you can find a mage willing to work for his body weight in simple weapons.)

Ozymandias9
2010-05-23, 11:21 PM
Yeah, no, that's pretty blatant disregard for the vow.

I would disagree. A Cohort drawn to a VoP character should have some measure of appreciation for voluntary sacrifice (thus the draw), but they need not be so righteously dedicated thereto as the character. You don't own a cohort, they're not a slave.

And not everyone who is drawn to seek out and follow a saint is so saintly themselves. I Gandhi is the VoP character, I see no problem with Nehru as a cohort.

Thurbane
2010-05-24, 12:06 AM
Yeah, no, that's pretty blatant disregard for the vow.
If you say so. Can you point me to the relevant text?

dspeyer
2010-05-24, 08:00 PM
A couple for casters:



Sacred Metamagic [exalted]
Prerequisites: Vow of Poverty
You can tap the power of the celestial plane and channel it into your own magic. You gain 5 levels of free metamagic per day. You may divide these however you wish, but may never reduce a spell below its original level. For example, you could cast a permanent spell using a slot one higher than normal, or five silenced spells in their normal slots.
Special: You may take this more than once. It stacks.




Sacred Spell Knowledge [exalted]
Prerequisites: Vow of Poverty
You tap into the collective knowledge of all righteous spellcasters throughout history. You may cast any spell on your class list by spending two spell slots or two prepared spells of the same level or higher. If you have multiple spellcasting classes, this feat applies to all of them, but the slots spent must be from the same class as the spell received.


I realize casters don't usually need more power, but VoP is kind of violence-focused. It gives all those weapon bonuses, but what violent characters spend on weapons casters mostly spend on metamagic rods and scrolls. I figure these kind of replace those.

Lev
2010-05-24, 08:21 PM
............5 levels of free metamagic per day per feat? And it can be used by pure wizards? Here I thought meditation domain was broken... You could cast 2 level 9 spells at clvl 17 in one round with that, or you could cast maximized time stop and do whatever you want for 5 rounds.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-24, 08:54 PM
A couple for casters:





I realize casters don't usually need more power, but VoP is kind of violence-focused. It gives all those weapon bonuses, but what violent characters spend on weapons casters mostly spend on metamagic rods and scrolls. I figure these kind of replace those.

Ah, casters don't need the boost. Really, they don't. The stat and AC boosters that come with the Vow are sufficient. Really. If you take, say, a human Sorcerer who goes Vow of Poverty, he has no reason to take any feats other than these with his bonus Exalted feats. By a lot. So that Human Sorcerer-20 has a feat line that looks something like:
Human: Sacred Vow
1st level: Vow of Poverty
Vow of Poverty Bonus 1: Sacred Spell Knowledge
Vow of Poverty Bonus 2: Sacred Metamagic
3rd level: Extend Spell
Vow of Poverty Bonus 4: Sacred Metamagic
Vow of Poverty Bonus 6: Sacred Metamagic
6th level: Heighten Spell
Vow of Poverty Bonus 8: Sacred Metamagic
9th level: Maximize Spell
Vow of Poverty Bonus 10: Sacred Metamagic
Vow of Poverty Bonus 12: Sacred Metamagic
12th Level: Quicken Spell
Vow of Poverty Bonus 14: Sacred Metamagic
15th level: Persistent Spell
Vow of Poverty Bonus 16: Sacred Metamagic
Vow of Poverty Bonus 18: Sacred Metamagic
18th Level: Searing Spell
Vow of Poverty Bonus 20: Sacred Metamagic

Now, at 20th, he's got 50 levels of free metamagic... and LOTS of effects to use. Sure, he can't really use spells that require expensive components (at least, not without that nifty adaptation that lets him burn XP) or expensive foci, but ... yikes. Maximized Time Stop (Searing Spell Maximized Delayed Blast Fireball*4, Resilient Sphere (on self)): Watch the Fireworks. Twice per day. And he doesn't even need to know Time Stop. Or Delayed Blast Fireball. Or Resilient Sphere.

Thurbane
2010-05-24, 10:21 PM
Question: is a VoP Binder possible? I'm assuming the seal required for Soul Binding can be drawn with a finger on a dusty floor, barring any special requirements of the individual vestige (which can be overcome with the Ignore Special Requirements feat anyhow).

Also, Binder has no alignment restrictions, so the Exalted part shouldn't be a problem.

Finally, I'm assuming that temporary items that are summoned via vestiges (Savnok's Armor, Eurynome's Maul) don't count as possessions?

Optimystik
2010-05-24, 10:38 PM
Finally, I'm assuming that temporary items that are summoned via vestiges (Savnok's Armor, Eurynome's Maul) don't count as possessions?

Whether they count as possessions or not is unfortunately irrelevant - just using items not covered by the Vow counts as breaking it.


To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions...

Masterwork full plate is not covered.

Thurbane
2010-05-24, 10:42 PM
Whether they count as possessions or not is unfortunately irrelevant - just using items not covered by the Vow counts as breaking it.

Masterwork full plate is not covered.
Darn...oh well, I suppose so long as you avoid those vestiges, you can still be a VoP Binder.

sonofzeal
2010-05-24, 10:53 PM
Darn...oh well, I suppose so long as you avoid those vestiges, you can still be a VoP Binder.
One could attempt to claim they're "class features", not "items", if your DM's in a really good mood.

FlamingKobold
2010-05-24, 11:14 PM
I think that they fall into the same category as soulmelds, and are okay for use with VoP.