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View Full Version : The cure for MAD?



Cheesy74
2010-05-22, 07:39 PM
There is a feat in the Races of Renown: Bastards and Bloodlines sourcebook. It goes as follows.

Lost Tradition (General)
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.

Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.

Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.



This governing score change determines bonus spells, maximum castable spell level, and save DCs. I see this as an excellent resource if it would be allowed in any campaigns at all. Charisma-based clerics, for instance, would be even more powerful, since all their class features would be cha-based.

The roleplaying applications, as well, are quite interesting. A con-based sorcerer could be a vessel for raw magic that he is only able to release without destroying himself through a concerted effort of bodily fortitude.

Thoughts, applications, etc?

Deth Muncher
2010-05-22, 07:44 PM
Heh, Str based casters make me chuckle. I mean, I know that's not what you're going for, but the thought of someone's somatic component being flexing their muscles in a certain pattern is just too good for words.

Cheesy74
2010-05-22, 07:49 PM
I had discussed that before with a friend, yeah.
"So you're faced with an ogre zombie. What do you do?"
"I do an intricate pec-dance until a beam of sunlight shoots from my biceps."

Mando Knight
2010-05-22, 07:50 PM
Heh, Str based casters make me chuckle. I mean, I know that's not what you're going for, but the thought of someone's somatic component being flexing their muscles in a certain pattern is just too good for words.

Well, why else would armor give such a huge penalty to spells with somatic components?

olelia
2010-05-22, 07:51 PM
A constitution based druid and wizard walk into a bar....

Jack_Simth
2010-05-22, 07:53 PM
There is a feat in the Races of Renown: Bastards and Bloodlines sourcebook. It goes as follows.

Lost Tradition (General)
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.

Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.

Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.



This governing score change determines bonus spells, maximum castable spell level, and save DCs. I see this as an excellent resource if it would be allowed in any campaigns at all. Charisma-based clerics, for instance, would be even more powerful, since all their class features would be cha-based.

The roleplaying applications, as well, are quite interesting. A con-based sorcerer could be a vessel for raw magic that he is only able to release without destroying himself through a concerted effort of bodily fortitude.

Thoughts, applications, etc?
A Strength-based Cleric with the Strength domain invokes the ability and uses a Save-or-Lose spell. Goodbye BBEG. Only once/day, though, so not too bad... but at 10th level, that's +5 to the spell save DC (well, less any boosts from a Belt of Giant Strength, but still...).

The biggest problem with the feat as listed is that, for the most part, it's not casters that are MAD. It's Monks, Paladins, Hexblades, and so forth, who aren't particularly helped by this. In the meantime, it makes casters even more SAD (oh yes, and Con will be a VERY popular choice).

Mechanichi
2010-05-22, 07:54 PM
Dexterity-based wizards. To cast spell they need to do over-the-top-Naruto-esque handsigns.

Trixie
2010-05-22, 07:56 PM
Constitution. Rawr!

Or Dexterity. Hit and not let be hitted :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-22, 08:06 PM
This was why I loved my 4e Dragon Sorcerer. He got extra damage on his attacks by flexing at the enemies.:smallbiggrin:

Vizzerdrix
2010-05-22, 08:07 PM
Mmm... Int based Sorc om nom nom

elonin
2010-05-22, 08:09 PM
This has applications for gishes. For example use this to change your casting stat to dex and gish as a skill monkey.

urbanpirate
2010-05-22, 08:11 PM
Makes all those arcane hierophant and MT builds all the more nasty.

Emmerask
2010-05-22, 08:13 PM
There is a feat in the Races of Renown: Bastards and Bloodlines sourcebook. It goes as follows.

Lost Tradition (General)
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.

Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.

Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.



This governing score change determines bonus spells, maximum castable spell level, and save DCs. I see this as an excellent resource if it would be allowed in any campaigns at all. Charisma-based clerics, for instance, would be even more powerful, since all their class features would be cha-based.

The roleplaying applications, as well, are quite interesting. A con-based sorcerer could be a vessel for raw magic that he is only able to release without destroying himself through a concerted effort of bodily fortitude.

Thoughts, applications, etc?


I seem to fail to see the reason behind this caster buff?
And which casters are really a mad class to begin with, I´m sure there are a few but still con based wizard? dex based sorcerer? madness !

Paladin and monk the most mad class ever are not effected at all by this paladin because only spellcasting is effected and monk well is not a casting class... so this is no mad fix at all?

Or do I just fail my dc check to see the joke? :smalleek:

Pluto
2010-05-22, 08:23 PM
This feat is terrible. MAD is a good thing in casters

All the relatively benign buff spells become ridiculous. And the ones that are already really good ([Draconic] Polymorph, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Giant Size, Bite of the Werebear, etc.) become even more of a problem.

But on the plus side, this feat is a cheap trick that can allow the strengthly barbarian to stand alongside the wizened priest, even into higher levels (just they both get to be labeled 'Cleric'). And there's something I like about Mongrelfolk becoming one of the strongest races.

Overall though, this can be easily abused, it has incredibly strange fluff and it would exaggerate imbalance problems between classes if allowed.

Thurbane
2010-05-22, 08:26 PM
It would really help dual stat based casters, like Favored Soul, Archivist and Healer, even if it was limited to mental stats only.

UglyPanda
2010-05-22, 08:29 PM
I was wondering why I hadn't seen that feat before, then I remembered that that book is third-party.

In my opinion, that book was badly written and badly conceived. As several people have already said, this is not a fix. Also, dual-stat casters already have an easy fix: houseruling them into single-stat casters.

Kantolin
2010-05-22, 08:31 PM
Spirit Shamans, Shugenja, Favored Souls, Shadowcasters(Assuming they count), Bardic Sages, and Healers will all love you. Plus it'd let Lurks use dexterity for everything if they felt like it (assuming they count too).

If it was then limited to mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha), it wouldn't be terribly unfair to open it up to everyone either. Without that, it's probably unfair for the above casters too.

AstralFire
2010-05-22, 08:33 PM
Dual stat casters do not need to get buffed to single stat casters. Single stat casters need more MAD.

UglyPanda
2010-05-22, 08:36 PM
I'm well aware, I'm just pointing out that dual-stat casters would not need this feat if you believed they needed it.

Not too sure about the Lurk and the Ninja, though. I rarely see those in play. I'd personally prefer

Demons_eye
2010-05-22, 08:36 PM
Dual stat casters do not need to get buffed to single stat casters. Single stat casters need more MAD.

You telling me doing push up's till the ground shakes, jumping in the air and doing flips till a fire ball shots out, or roaring until lighting strikes is not enough reason to just let people use this?

Thurbane
2010-05-22, 08:37 PM
Dual stat casters do not need to get buffed to single stat casters. Single stat casters need more MAD.
Either way, it needs to be a level playing field. Having some full casters on one stat, and a handful on two, is just asinine.

Tyrandar
2010-05-22, 08:43 PM
Yea, is it not written that the cure for MAD is to be GLAD? :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2010-05-22, 08:44 PM
You telling me doing push up's till the ground shakes, jumping in the air and doing flips till a fire ball shots out, or roaring until lighting strikes is not enough reason to just let people use this?

It's called Swordsage.

Runestar
2010-05-22, 08:48 PM
At best, I would allow a feat which lets you select another stat for determining bonus spells known (but spell dcs is still based on your original stat).

Thurbane
2010-05-22, 08:50 PM
...so if you were going to make SAD casters into MAD, how would you go about it?

Clerics: WIS & CHA
Druids: WIS & CHA
Wizards: INT & CHA
Sorcerers: INT & CHA

AstralFire
2010-05-22, 08:55 PM
I would make Sorcerers straight Cha (they're the weakest of the four anyway, and get a Forced mini-MAD from fixed spell list meaning higher skill reliance), and Druids Wis and Int personally.

Cheesy74
2010-05-22, 09:05 PM
In my opinion, that book was badly written and badly conceived.

I'd have to agree, on the grounds that on the next page is a feat that allows players to defy all anatomy.

Basically, it allows you to run 10x your speed for 1 round and make a DC 15+rounds sprinted in last hour fortitude save to keep sprinting every round after that.
If anyone else just noticed that that's a really, really pitiful save for something that lets a third-level barbarian run 45 miles an hour (I did the calculations), then congrats, you have a better sense of realism than the writers of this book.

I like this feat more for its flavour than for its actual mechanics. Its effects could just be achieved through roleplay rather than throwing a gigantic bone to munchkins with the feat itself.

AstralFire
2010-05-22, 09:07 PM
That feat's a lot better than the one you put at the top of the page. I'll let you think about why.

AmberVael
2010-05-22, 09:11 PM
...so if you were going to make SAD casters into MAD, how would you go about it?

Clerics: WIS & CHA
Druids: WIS & CHA
Wizards: INT & CHA
Sorcerers: INT & CHA

I'm not entirely sure what I'd do with the divine casters, but I think arcane would go:

Wizards: Int and Wis
Sorcerers: Wis and Cha

My reasoning is that Wizards are all about understanding the universe and unlocking its secrets via knowledge and formula. Force of personality never enters into it, really- it's all about the workings in their head.

Sorcerer, on the other hand, is all about innate control and mastery. Their instinctual, intuitive talents allow them to use arcane magic- it's about force of will and inborn talent, which is better represented by Wisdom and Charisma- intellect isn't really necessary.

Draz74
2010-05-22, 09:11 PM
...so if you were going to make SAD casters into MAD, how would you go about it?

Clerics: WIS & CHA
Druids: WIS & CHA
Wizards: INT & CHA
Sorcerers: INT & CHA

I've always thought INT & WIS made more sense for a lot of Wizards. Merlin, for example, seems much better at perception and willpower than at social skills or emotional forcefulness.

'Course, there are plenty of counterexamples, too. Fizban's Wisdom certainly wasn't anything to admire ...

But really, when you get down to it, it really doesn't matter until you clean up some of the vagaries of what the three scores actually represent. And it really would make the most sense for all spellcasting to depend somehow on all three scores ...

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Shpadoinkle
2010-05-23, 01:37 AM
Yeah... this is boosting the classes that are already tier 1. Why would you do that?

Prodan
2010-05-23, 01:44 AM
Heh, Str based casters make me chuckle. I mean, I know that's not what you're going for, but the thought of someone's somatic component being flexing their muscles in a certain pattern is just too good for words.

CAAAANCER MAAAAGE!!!

Krazddndfreek
2010-05-23, 01:48 AM
There is a feat in the Races of Renown: Bastards and Bloodlines sourcebook. It goes as follows.

Lost Tradition (General)
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.

Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.

Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.



This governing score change determines bonus spells, maximum castable spell level, and save DCs. I see this as an excellent resource if it would be allowed in any campaigns at all. Charisma-based clerics, for instance, would be even more powerful, since all their class features would be cha-based.

The roleplaying applications, as well, are quite interesting. A con-based sorcerer could be a vessel for raw magic that he is only able to release without destroying himself through a concerted effort of bodily fortitude.

Thoughts, applications, etc?

Err, if you don't mind my saying, all this does is make casters even stronger. Now, they can cast using Con and have decent hp on top of being GOD.

HunterOfJello
2010-05-23, 01:57 AM
I think this feat would work great as long as it restricted the abilties to Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. Allowing Strength, Dexterity or Consititution would be ludicrous.

Thurbane
2010-05-23, 02:14 AM
I might allow it in my games, but with the following conditions:

The ability has to be a mental one (INT, WIS, CHA) and
Only dual stat casters can take the feat

Curmudgeon
2010-05-23, 02:27 AM
I might allow it in my games, but with the following conditions:

The ability has to be a mental one (INT, WIS, CHA) and
Only dual stat casters can take the feat

While that's certainly an improvement, I don't think tier 2 spellcasters need help. (Rather, tier 1 is the problem.) I might allow it only for non-full spellcasters, and also with mental-only stats. I don't see anything wrong with an INT-based Ranger or a CHA-based Assassin. (And of course you should be able to take it at the first level of any one spellcasting class, not just at 1st character level only.) But not for any full spellcasters.

As written, this is one of the most horrendously unbalancing feats I've ever seen. :smallyuk:

Thurbane
2010-05-23, 02:32 AM
As written, this is one of the most horrendously unbalancing feats I've ever seen. :smallyuk:
Agreed - but you could give it as a bonus feat to Healer without too much fear! :smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2010-05-23, 02:42 AM
I had discussed that before with a friend, yeah.
"So you're faced with an ogre zombie. What do you do?"
"I do an intricate pec-dance until a beam of sunlight shoots from my biceps."
I am reading Full Metal Alchemist right now and I am TOTALLY reminded of one Major Alex Louis Armstrong.
Bonus points if they take their shirt off, FOR NO REASON!
This shirt removing technique has been passed down the Armstrong line for generations!
Still, a way to balance this would be to add different abilities as prerequisites for using each alternate ability. For example strength would require either unarmed strike or proficiency with all martial weapons. Dexterity would require sneak attack, some other form of precision damage, or some other equally dexy class ability. Constitution needing rage, mayhap? Anyway, the idea I have is for this to help gishes be less MAD, while not making casters much more SAD then they already are.

Nidogg
2010-05-23, 03:45 AM
I agree with only mental stats, plenty of LA0 races give strength /dex/con boosts, almost none (in core) give mental boosts so you'd get insanely good half orc wizards.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-23, 04:01 AM
I agree with only mental stats, plenty of LA0 races give strength /dex/con boosts, almost none (in core) give mental boosts so you'd get insanely good half orc wizards.
With all due respect, I disagree. The reason this feat exists, in my opinion, is to reduce gish MAD. Oh, I agree the feat needs tweaking, but making it work with mental only does nothing to reduce MAD.

2xMachina
2010-05-23, 04:16 AM
Yes To Tier 0!!!

Kalirren
2010-05-23, 04:27 AM
Great. Now I have a horribly silly image of a physical stat-based bard caster (not sure which stat exactly, but it doesn't matter,) rocking out to

"Y---M, CA!"

For the life of me I can't imagine what spell that would be.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-23, 04:30 AM
Great. Now I have a horribly silly image of a physical stat-based bard caster (not sure which stat exactly, but it doesn't matter,) rocking out to

"Y---M, CA!"

For the life of me I can't imagine what spell that would be.
Tiny hut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tinyHut.htm), mayhap?

Escheton
2010-05-23, 05:18 AM
for favored souls that wade into combat and arent healbots its great.
They need str to hit and deal damage (lets not mention blade barrier), dex due to medium armor, con to not die so soon, not int, wis for dc's, cha for spells.
otherwise: no, just no

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-23, 05:32 AM
Personally I like the thought of a DEX / CON / STR whatever based caster. A way of limiting the unbalance would be to set a minimum requirement on INT or CHA. That way you don't get a Min-Max Wizard with 3 INT...

Zergrusheddie
2010-05-23, 06:13 AM
That's a cool feat but it has so, so many problems.

On the positive side, it makes Gish builds much less MAD and makes them less likely to have middle of the road stats. A Psychic Warrior using Strength would be awesome.

The negative side are the classes that are already super-crazy powerful. A Gnome Druid WILL have more HP than the Fighter and will be the most powerful person in the party with just a 16 point buy. Wizards get a little bit harder to kill and are still ruling the world.

It's a great feat that boosts everyone's power by making them less MAD. The thing is, the builds that are SAD just become completely ridiculous and the other builds just get a little bit better. Good intention but it's the classes themselves that are imbalanced and throwing a feat that anyone can take would never fix such a thing.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-23, 06:22 AM
That's why I suggested tweaking it so you have to have a ability only a gish would have to replace that stat. It might pigeon hole a little, but I think it helps.
I also applaud Avilan the Grey's idea of a minimum score needed in the ordinary casting stat. I would say 10, so your not min-maxing to an ungodly extreme.

Irbis
2010-05-23, 08:07 AM
Yea, is it not written that the cure for MAD is to be GLAD? :smallbiggrin:

? :smallconfused:

PersonMan
2010-05-23, 08:16 AM
? :smallconfused:

"Don't get mad, get GLAD!" From a trash bag commercial. The trash bags aren't any tougher than normal ones, though, at least in my experience.

Also, I agree that this should be usable by gishes...Maybe add a sort of DM-must-approve clause while we find a way to make it more balanced.

Also, if we're going to "fix" the feat, shouldn't this be moved to the Homebrew section?

Beorn080
2010-05-23, 10:00 AM
There is a feat in the Races of Renown:
Lost Tradition (General)
You are descended from a group of your chosen class who had very different ways of mastering their skills, and you follow in their tradition.

Benefits: Choose one class. You may change all instances of one ability for another in your class skills. This includes instances of stats for determining skills and BAB, and other base abilities. That ability cannot be changed again.

Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.


Changed it slightly. Lets MAD classes like monk do some skill swapping. Though it would lead to some interesting developments with classes like the barbarian. Would be fun for RP though, playing a STR based monk, or an intelligence based barbarian.

PId6
2010-05-23, 10:39 AM
You can already get Str or Dex as primary casting stat; just be an Illumian with the appropriate sigils. Granted, that only changes your bonus spells to Str/Dex; it does nothing for save DCs, but if you're focusing on a physical stat, you're probably going to be some kind of gish anyhow.