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Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-22, 11:09 PM
I am planning on building a character whuxh eventually will become an Anima mage, and while I want to minimize the CL loss due entry into anima mage I don't want to enter without binder level (bind vestige & bind vestige improved) my plan was on having 1 level of binder and bind vestige improved, but upon a more careful reading, it seems that bind vestige, improved, only functions with bind vestige feat (which in my opinion is quite dumb).

Now my question is would it be reasonable to ask the DM for Bind vestige improved to work like precocious aprentice?

The_Snark
2010-05-22, 11:21 PM
Bind Vestige and the improved version aren't designed to work with the actual binder class—they're for characters who want to dabble in the new system. The feat you are looking for is Improved Binding, which increases your effective binder level by 2 for the purposes of determining what level of vestige you can bind, and will let you get into Anima Mage with only 1 lost caster level.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-22, 11:23 PM
Bind Vestige and the improved version aren't designed to work with the actual binder class—they're for characters who want to dabble in the new system. The feat you are looking for is Improved Binding, which increases your effective binder level by 2 for the purposes of determining what level of vestige you can bind, and will let you get into Anima Mage with only 1 lost caster level.

:facedesk: .... that tells me to read more thoroughly.... thanks, now I see that feat..... (Note to self: no more character building when I am falling asleep on the keyboard)

Bayar
2010-05-23, 12:35 PM
How to enter Anima Mage at level 3:

Start as a level one Wizard with the Precocious Apprentice feat.
Level up and multiclass into Binder. At the same time, take a flaw and grab the Improved Binding feat. You now qualify for Anima Mage.

If your DM doesnt let you take flaws after level 1, then be a Dragonborn Human Wizard with Precocious Apprentice feat, and at level 2 when you get your binder level, commit some evil crimes to piss of Bahamut and take away your dragonborn-ness. Be ready to take 2d6 damage for 2 rounds though. You are now a human again. And, if your DM lets you, get Improved binding feat with your Human bonus feat (if he lets you grab any feat and not just feats that you would qualify at level 1...).

Both these variants are prone to DM bias though, so talk to him first.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-23, 12:37 PM
How to enter Anima Mage at level 3:

Start as a level one Wizard with the Precocious Apprentice feat.
Level up and multiclass into Binder. At the same time, take a flaw and grab the Improved Binding feat. You now qualify for Anima Mage.

If your DM doesnt let you take flaws after level 1, then be a Dragonborn Human Wizard with Precocious Apprentice feat, and at level 2 when you get your binder level, commit some evil crimes to piss of Bahamut and take away your dragonborn-ness. Be ready to take 2d6 damage for 2 rounds though. You are now a human again. And, if your DM lets you, get Improved binding feat with your Human bonus feat (if he lets you grab any feat and not just feats that you would qualify at level 1...).

Both these variants are prone to DM bias though, so talk to him first.

Thank you for the advice, but I am planning on entering anima mage at 5 (binder 1/Wizard 3) as my DM has already said no to precocius apprentice

Boci
2010-05-23, 12:37 PM
How to enter Anima Mage at level 3:

Start as a level one Wizard with the Precocious Apprentice feat.
Level up and multiclass into Binder. At the same time, take a flaw and grab the Improved Binding feat. You now qualify for Anima Mage.

I don't think the first one works. I think that's due to the requirement of spells, where as Precocious Apprentice only grants you a single 1st 2nd level spell, but I do not remeber the exact argument.

Bayar
2010-05-23, 12:41 PM
The first one doesn't work. I think that's due to the requirement of spells, where as Precocious Apprentice only grants you a single 1st level spell.

You mean 2nd level spell. Plus, I dunno, why shouldn't it count even if it is one spell ? Because it says "bind a 2 second level vestige" and "ability to cast second level spells" ?

Boci
2010-05-23, 12:46 PM
You mean 2nd level spell. Plus, I dunno, why shouldn't it count even if it is one spell ? Because it says "bind a 2 second level vestige" and "ability to cast second level spells" ?

Precisely. You need to cast 2nd level spells. Precocious Apprentice allows you to cast 1 single 2nd level spell.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-23, 12:46 PM
How to enter Anima Mage at level 2:
Human, 2 Flaws, Enchanter, Social Proficiency variant, Focused Specialist variant.

For the Flaws, take Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. For being Human, take Precocious Apprentice. For being 1st level, take any Metamagic feat. Since you're an Enchanter with Social Proficiency, Intimidate is a Class Skill for you - put 4 ranks in it. You now qualify for Anima Mage on your next level.

Entering Anima Mage at level 2 (almost) without being an Enchanter:
Human, 2 Flaws, Focused Specialist variant, Fighter Bonus Feat variant.

Use the Fighter Bonus Feat to get Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit Maneuver) - this adds Intimidate to your class skills list. Technically, however, Intimidate is added to your Class Skills after you place your skill ranks, which means you cannot place 4 ranks in it at level 1. Qualifies, by the strictest of RAW, at level 3. Odds of someone knowing that you can't place the skills after getting the feat are even lower than the odds of someone allowing this to work in the first place, but if you're pulling RAW shenanigans you pretty much have to be absolutely right by RAW.

Note: Anima Mage says nothing about "existing Binder class", as spellcasting classes do. It only says "Soul Binding +1" and "Your anima mage and binder levels stack for the purpose of..." - Thus, your Effective Binding Level is equal to your Binder level (0) plus your Anima Mage level (1-10).


Precisely. You need to cast 2nd level spells. Precocious Apprentice allows you to cast 1 single 2nd level spell.
Right. Most claim you need Focused Specialist to get around that - Focused Specialist ditches your Precocious Apprentice spell slot for 2 spell slots from your Specialized school.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-23, 12:50 PM
How to enter Anima Mage at level 2:
Human, 2 Flaws, Enchanter, Social Proficiency variant, Focused Specialist variant.

For the Flaws, take Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. For being Human, take Precocious Apprentice. For being 1st level, take any Metamagic feat. Since you're an Enchanter with Social Proficiency, Intimidate is a Class Skill for you - put 4 ranks in it. You now qualify for Anima Mage on your next level.

Entering Anima Mage at level 2 (almost) without being an Enchanter:
Human, 2 Flaws, Focused Specialist variant, Fighter Bonus Feat variant.

Use the Fighter Bonus Feat to get Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit Maneuver) - this adds Intimidate to your class skills list. Technically, however, Intimidate is added to your Class Skills after you place your skill ranks, which means you cannot place 4 ranks in it at level 1. Qualifies, by the strictest of RAW, at level 3. Odds of someone knowing that you can't place the skills after getting the feat are even lower than the odds of someone allowing this to work in the first place, but if you're pulling RAW shenanigans you pretty much have to be absolutely right by RAW.

Note: Anima Mage says nothing about "existing Binder class", as spellcasting classes do. It only says "Soul Binding +1" and "Your anima mage and binder levels stack for the purpose of..." - Thus, your Effective Binding Level is equal to your Binder level (0) plus your Anima Mage level (1-10).


Right. Most claim you need Focused Specialist to get around that - Focused Specialist ditches your Precocious Apprentice spell slot for 2 spell slots from your Specialized school.

Thanks.... but trying to get this past my DM I will surely get some books thrown at me.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-23, 12:51 PM
Thanks.... but trying to get this past my DM I will surely get some books thrown at me.
Absolutely will. Would any form of early entry not? Early entry is like DM's Most Wanted (to ban) for pretty much every DM.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-23, 12:52 PM
Absolutely will. Would any form of early entry not? Early entry is like DM's Most Wanted (to ban) for pretty much every DM.

I think binder 1/wizard 3 with improved binding is not that bad....

DragoonWraith
2010-05-23, 12:53 PM
That's not really Early Entry, that's pretty much the intended entry.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-23, 12:54 PM
That's not really Early Entry, that's pretty much the intended entry.

I thought the intended entry was binder 3/wizard 3, as most theurg classes

Boci
2010-05-23, 12:55 PM
I thought the intended entry was binder 3/wizard 3, as most theurg classes

it is possibly they forgott about improved binding when making the PrC. The sample character has 3 levels of binder. Who knew they were actually useful for something.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-23, 12:57 PM
I prefer to think that by the time Tome of Magic was printed, WotC had finally learned that the 3/3 entry of Theurgic classes is awful.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-23, 12:59 PM
Oh well then I have more solid arguments to convince my DM