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GoatBoy
2010-05-23, 01:32 AM
The Bone Knight prestige class from Eberron: Five Nations p. 117 caught my eye as soon as I read it. But I am a little confused about the entry requirements:

BAB: +4
Skills: Craft (armorsmithing) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Ride 6 ranks
Special: Ability to turn or rebuke undead
Special: Ability to cast 1st-level divine spells

Okay, pretty straightforward. A paladin can easily meet these and take the first level of the class at 5th level.

Hey, wait a minute.

In every book I've ever read, I've never seen a PrC that can be taken before 6th level, with the exception of the Master Specialist (which admits that it is unusual), and a couple of other anomalies which involve class variants or unexpected approaches.

Did I read this wrong?

Two other questions. First, would any but the most rule-thumping DM force a character to spend about 50 weeks creating a suit of full plate before they could access their class features?

Second, it says that paladin and bone knight levels stack for purposes of your skeletal steed. Does that mean the steed gains d8s for HD and an intelligence score as the regular special mount, despite being a skeleton?

Arakune
2010-05-23, 01:37 AM
Well, looks like you can meet it at level 5 (4 levels + 1 PrC). It's about alright, I guess. Maybe the creators wanted it that way?

Os1ris09
2010-05-23, 02:04 AM
Well that says to me a 14th lvl tank that doesnt die due to crits, energy drain of any kind, ability damage of any kind, AND immune to disease and paralysis. GG sir?

Thurbane
2010-05-23, 02:39 AM
There's actually more than a few PrCs that you can get into before 6th level...although 6th seems to be the "standard".

Greenish
2010-05-23, 07:06 AM
Well that says to me a 14th lvl tank that doesnt die due to crits, energy drain of any kind, ability damage of any kind, AND immune to disease and paralysis. GG sir?Warforged are immune to paralysis, disease and energy drain from level 1, and to crits from level 6 (with a racial feat).

T.G. Oskar
2010-05-23, 07:56 AM
Well that says to me a 14th lvl tank that doesnt die due to crits, energy drain of any kind, ability damage of any kind, AND immune to disease and paralysis. GG sir?

More like "finally, something that can duke it out against some creatures!"

Well...mainly undead. Wizards can just go with Twinned Maximized Orb of Acid and call it a day. Or Totemists can just choose Girallon Arms or Manticore Belt and call it a week.

In fact, it's a pretty reasonable way to become a good, resistant, pretty much worthwhile character by level 14-15. Given that it doesn't get full spellcasting...I wouldn't say it's really broken or overpowered in any case.

Not to mention disease immunity is kinda meh, since there are only few moments where said immunity is worthwhile, and it still can't protect you against nausea and sickness.

Or...death effects (odd; immune to ability drain and energy drain but not to death effects). Or mind-affecting effects (good will, sure, but no immunity to mind-affecting effects, so Power Word Kill might still kill him).

Greenish
2010-05-23, 07:58 AM
In fact, it's a pretty reasonable way to become a good, resistant, pretty much worthwhile character by level 14-15. Given that it doesn't get full spellcasting...I wouldn't say it's really broken or overpowered in any case.Isn't it 9/10?

PersonMan
2010-05-23, 08:25 AM
Isn't it 9/10?

I think Oscar means that they get 1/2 casting like a Paladin, Ranger or what have you.

I've never seen or heard of the class until now, and have no idea if I'm right, but it seems like the logical conclusion given the use of the term.

Thurbane
2010-05-23, 08:50 AM
Bone Knight is, indeed, a 9/10 casting progression class. The only level that you don't get "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" is 1st.

riddles
2010-05-23, 09:38 AM
which means it's great for necromantic clerics to make a skeletal leader.

Boci
2010-05-23, 09:57 AM
So paladin 3 / Cleric 2 for 11th le vel cleric casting? That seems to be a worth the level delay.

Greenish
2010-05-23, 10:02 AM
So paladin 3 / Cleric 2 for 11th le vel cleric casting? That seems to be a worth the level delay.Why paladin levels?

Mongoose87
2010-05-23, 10:08 AM
Why paladin levels?

I get taking two for divine grace, but not really three.

Boci
2010-05-23, 10:08 AM
Why paladin levels?

Full BAB for earlier entry, CHA to saves and a nice choice of auras with all the alternative aligment paladins.

Il_Vec
2010-05-23, 11:24 AM
Cleric 3/ Pal 2 and Pal 3/Cle2 have the same BAB, I'd rather get 2nd leve Cleric spells.

Boci
2010-05-23, 11:35 AM
Cleric 3/ Pal 2 and Pal 3/Cle2 have the same BAB, I'd rather get 2nd leve Cleric spells.

Once you've completed the bone knight PrC you will have 6th level spells either way, so it comes down to having one more 6th level spell, or a far less powerful but automatic and constant buff/debuff.

Fawsto
2010-05-23, 12:30 PM
I am taking the spell.

Damn, there it is another class that I'd love to see in my gaming table. I love this PrC so much.

Also, another PrC with really early entry requirements is Church Inquisitor from Comp Div. Take a look at it and see how soon your cleric can get his 3rd/4th domain.

Satan's bless in flame wheel. (Quoting a friend, Il_Vec will remember).

Greenish
2010-05-23, 12:34 PM
Also, another PrC with really early entry requirements is Church Inquisitor from Comp Div. Take a look at it and see how soon your cleric can get his 3rd/4th domain.Ordained Champion from Comp. Champion can be entered at 5th level, too.

Akal Saris
2010-05-23, 12:36 PM
You can get into Ordained Champion at 5th as well, so that's 3 cleric PrCs that let you in 1-2 levels early.

Cleric 6/Bone Knight 10 (Or Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 2/Bone Knight 10) is going to be much stronger than paladin/bone knight though, even if you have to wait 2 levels to enter and don't stack mount levels as well.

As for crafting your own full plate out of bone, that's quite annoying - I'm guessing most DMs will let you do it during downtime between major adventures unless they don't want you to enter the PrC or they're real sticklers for rules.

Vizzerdrix
2010-05-23, 12:38 PM
Is Cleric-5/ Ordained Champ-5/ Bone Knight-10 possible? I'm away from my books at the moment. :smallconfused:

Greenish
2010-05-23, 12:39 PM
Cleric 6/Bone Knight 10 (Or Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 2/Bone Knight 10) is going to be much stronger than paladin/bone knight though, even if you have to wait 2 levels to enter and don't stack mount levels as well.For mount levels, you could dip prestige paladin 2. Loses yet another caste level, but gets Divine Grace and special mount.

[Edit]:
Is Cleric-5/ Ordained Champ-5/ Bone Knight-10 possible? I'm away from my books at the moment. :smallconfused:It is possible and quite solid. All three progress turning, casts as level 17 cleric, 18 BAB. And obviously all the other goodies, OC is considered pretty decent even though it loses two caster levels.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-23, 12:43 PM
Is Cleric-5/ Ordained Champ-5/ Bone Knight-10 possible? I'm away from my books at the moment. :smallconfused:

If you can adapt Bone Knight to generic setting I would say yes, since bone knight isn't tied to an specific deity while ordained champion is tied to Hextor or hieroneous

Divayth Fyr
2010-05-23, 12:45 PM
For mount levels, you could dip prestige paladin 2. Loses yet another caste level, but gets Divine Grace and special mount.
You could go for three prestige paladin levels. Since the third level advances spellcasting, you don't lose anything and gain the aura and divine health.

Greenish
2010-05-23, 12:45 PM
If you can adapt Bone Knight to generic setting I would say yes, since bone knight isn't tied to an specific deity while ordained champion is tied to Hextor or hieroneousOr adapt OC, which should be pretty easy, it'll fit most any god with war domain.

[Edit]:
You could go for three prestige paladin levels. Since the third level advances spellcasting, you don't lose anything and gain the aura and divine health.Good call.

Warm Icepack
2010-05-23, 12:47 PM
I'm playing a cleric 6/Bone Knight (all of it) in a fairly high mortality campaign.

I managed to side step the armor creation question by virtue of this character being introduced mid-campaign as a backup. (I couldn't fail the rolls, so it wasn't an issue)

I almost never use my skeletal steed because we spend a lot of time underground. The time we do spend above ground is not spent on any sort of overland travel (access to teleport and its fellows). In any case, I really don't have the feats to make mounted combat pay off, so it doesn't come up often.

Even so, it is more than a worthwhile class for me. Trust me, it is a Good Thing when the character responsible for fixing a party's ailments cannot be incapacitated by them himself.

If you play in a high mortality campaign, or spend alot of time in the front, the BK is one of the best choices for protecting the squishies in pointy hats.
Also, straight cleric as an entry is definitely worthwhile. Spells are pretty useful that way.

On a somewhat relevant note, is anyone aware of any prestige classes that would work well with the BK and advance divine casting? I am nearing the end of the class, and expect to finish it next session.

PId6
2010-05-23, 02:06 PM
On a somewhat relevant note, is anyone aware of any prestige classes that would work well with the BK and advance divine casting? I am nearing the end of the class, and expect to finish it next session.
Contemplative is very nice as a one level dip for a new domain. Same for Church Inquisitor. Same for Divine Oracle (2 levels work there as well).

Fawsto
2010-05-23, 11:30 PM
Keep going for imunities. Get Divine Oracle and find yourself an "evasion in heavy armor" free of cost. If you are member of a LG church, go Church Inquisitor who gives you another domain (with a useful domain power) and a few more interesting imunities (charms and compulsions).

You loose turning progretion on both, but the benefits seem fitting.

Os1ris09
2010-05-24, 02:01 PM
Honestlly if your worried about CL loss I would go with the Illumian Race and take the Enhanced Power Sigil feat.

If you take the right sigil power with that feat if gives you +3 CL right back so theoretically you can do the following build.

Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 8/Bone Knight 10/Prestige Paladin 2 and maintain your CL at 20.

If that builds any good or not Idk because I don't have the Complete Champion :smallfrown: and can't find it for a decent price...... :smallfrown:

Greenish
2010-05-24, 02:07 PM
Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 8/Bone Knight 10/Prestige Paladin 2 and maintain your CL at 20.That'd be ECL 25. Even if you take into account that Ordained Champion is only 5 levels long, it would be ECL 22, and you'd cast as a 18th level cleric.

Machiavellian
2010-05-24, 02:08 PM
That'd be ECL 25. Even if you take into account that Ordained Champion is only 5 levels long, it would be ECL 22, and you'd cast as a 18th level cleric.

I actually prefer to go with no OC and instead pick up a dip or so into Sovereign Speaker.

Greenish
2010-05-24, 02:11 PM
I actually prefer to go with no OC and instead pick up a dip or so into Sovereign Speaker.I do like OC, but the 3/5 casting hurts. Still, it's a cleric, it's not like you'd need all the power you can possibly scrape together.

Machiavellian
2010-05-24, 02:17 PM
I do like OC, but the 3/5 casting hurts. Still, it's a cleric, it's not like you'd need all the power you can possibly scrape together.

ORLY?!

Cloistered Cleric 5/Sovereign Speaker 5/Divine Oracle 1/Contemplative 1/Church Inquisitor 1/Master of Shrouds 7

Jeff240sx
2010-05-24, 03:35 PM
Ordained Champion is 3 levels long, imo.

(Cloistered/Regular) Cleric 4 / Ordained Champion 3 / Prestige Paladin 2

BAB -2
Full turning, pally mount / lay on hands, Smite (any), bonus War domain, channel spell for an all-day buff and something to do with a Belt of Battle, free Knowledge Devotion, Bardic Knowledge...
-2 caster levels.
Possibly a lot of Battle Blessing cheese for nearly all spells cast as swift actions.

It's a strong case for how a battle-cleric should start.

Os1ris09
2010-05-24, 03:36 PM
That'd be ECL 25. Even if you take into account that Ordained Champion is only 5 levels long, it would be ECL 22, and you'd cast as a 18th level cleric.

Whoops..... LOL my fault. Still I think I get my point across though. I mean its not a bad option if you want to opt out of the O.C. fully. I honestly would see where the best point to drop out would be and drop at that lvl and continue on to BK. I don't know the best drop point but if its only a 5 lvl PrC then i would dip at 3 depending on class features and go into PrC Paladin 2 and then to Bone Knight. Or mix and match to your liking but I believe I made my point.

Or I hope so :smalltongue: