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Ashtagon
2010-05-23, 02:27 AM
I've been contemplating this for a while for my houserule system.

In practical terms, it basically means a +2 bonus on a small selection of skills immediately the character hits 2nd level. If you allow skill synergies to stack (Iron Heroes specifically bans this, while 3.5e generally allows them to stack as untyped bonuses), that boost at 2nd level can get monstrously high fast. Min-maxers will pick skills that synergise well to get the maximum benefit.

This basically makes the jump from 1st to 2nd level much bigger that it otherwise would be. You effectively go from 4 ranks at 1st level to 7 (or more if they stack) at 2nd level.

It does however, help fix the problem of the fighter (and some other classes)with 2 skill points. But I think that problem is better fixed by giving them more skill points, which most homebrew fixes seem to agree with.

The only other similar scheme (one skill helping another) I have seen is in GURPS, where a skill defaults to another skill (at a penalty) if you don't have any ranks in that specific skill. But since D&D has far fewer skills than GURPS, that wouldn't make much sense.

Opinions?

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-23, 04:48 AM
Personally, I think IH has it about right.
You could just type the synergy bonus - which will limit the explosion at 2nd level, but not do away entirely with the boost for low skill point classes.

But I see what you're getting at. If you give out a bigger allocation of skill points to the classes that are lacking them in RAW, you fix them (a little) without allowing the same benefit to classes that need no fix.

I'd say give an extra 2 skill points for the Fighter will do the job. All the other 2-per-level classes have other special abilities that balance their low skills.

Krazddndfreek
2010-05-23, 05:04 AM
The synergy bonuses aren't actually that great. It wouldn't hurt to leave them as is. However, what I would recommend is adding 2 skill points on to the fighter as Altair prescribed, and to the paladin. Those two classes really don't get so much. Casters are chill without them.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-05-23, 05:06 AM
Pathfinder got rid of Skill Synergy. It was more than counterbalanced by everything else they did with Skill Points and Class Skills and it cut down on the Game-Breaking Munchkinry.

Really, however, Skill Synergy bonuses are really good bonuses for your players that shouldn't break the game. The only one I can think of is stacking bonuses for Diplomacy, and unless you have a Diplomancer in the group, that shouldn't be an issue.

nonsi
2010-05-23, 09:24 AM
1. Skill-synergy actually makes a lot of sense.
2. With skill-focus, you practically start with 7 ranks from the get go.
3. You could rule that multiple synergies overlap rather than stack (a rule in my HRs).
4. Magical bonuses to skills (Beguiling Influence, Glibness etc) are way more devastating to balance than anything else (my HRs ban ther altogether - the only exception is Bardic Music).

Nakun
2010-05-23, 10:04 AM
I like skill synergy in concept, but it does lead to a massive level of power to those who pick complementing skills (I have had a charisma caster in every group with a ridiculous diplomacy and bluff by third level...) I do think the most drastic effect of the synergies is with the charisma based skills, and that can be a problem.

If I understand what Ashtagon was talking about, something like using bluff at a -2 penalty in place of diplomacy, then I like that idea much more than "Oh, you have three semi related skills, here's you +6 bonus to all of them."

Ashtagon
2010-05-23, 10:42 AM
1. Skill-synergy actually makes a lot of sense.

Because?

Being well-trained at skill X giving a basic ability on skill Y at which you have no training makes sense to me.

Conversely, why should a high school education in geography give any particular bonus to someone who has a phd in history (or pick your favourite pair of related skills, mutatis mutandis)?

2. With skill-focus, you practically start with 7 ranks from the get go.

All the more reason not to make the skills go to even crazier heights right out of the box. That's an entire feat you spent on that +3 bonus. Drowning it own in a forest of synergy bonuses makes the feat feel worthless.

3. You could rule that multiple synergies overlap rather than stack (a rule in my HRs).

If I keep synergy at all, that's what I'd do.

4. Magical bonuses to skills (Beguiling Influence, Glibness etc) are way more devastating to balance than anything else (my HRs ban ther altogether - the only exception is Bardic Music).

Magic is something else that needs fixing. Everyone knows that. But I want to get the mundane non-magical side of things working properly first. I want my rules to be able to play a non-magical world if that's the campaign I want to play with them.

Boci
2010-05-23, 10:50 AM
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Conversely, why should a high school education in geography give any particular bonus to someone who has a phd in history (or pick your favourite pair of related skills, mutatis mutandis)?

Are you saying you can find two skills that are not related? Really? Now use an example of two skills that actually grant synergy.

Ashtagon
2010-05-23, 10:55 AM
If I understand what Ashtagon was talking about, something like using bluff at a -2 penalty in place of diplomacy, then I like that idea much more than "Oh, you have three semi related skills, here's you +6 bonus to all of them."

To take an example from GURPS at random to illustrate...


Architecture/TL

IQ/Average

Defaults: IQ-5 or Engineer (Civil)-4.

This is the ability to design buildings, and to deduce the design of buildings from their function (and vice versa). A successful Architecture roll lets you learn things about a strange building, find a secret room or door, etc.

Modifiers: -2 if the building is of a strange type; -5 if it is alien.

Explanation:

This skill (Architecture) is based off the ability score Intelligence (IQ), and it is considered an "average" difficulty skill for training purposes (this affects the number of hours spent training to improve it, which loosely translates to skill points).

If you have not spent any time training, you use your Intelligence -5 as the default value for the skill, or your Engineer (civil) skill -4, whichever is higher.

The idea I was thinking to import was as follows:

Let's take Sleight of Hand as an example. Normally, it receives a synergy bonus from Bluff. Instead of a synergy bonus, you'd get to use either your Sleight of Hand ranks, or half your Bluff skill ranks.

(alternate idea: your Sleight of Hand ranks, or Bluff ranks -4.)

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-23, 10:23 PM
Ignoring diplomacy how many skills benefit from more then one synergy at the same time? not many and even fewer for all purposes.
Tumble grants synergy to balance and jump but benefits only from jump.

Spellcraft gains a bonus from knowledge (arcana) but ranks in use magic device only apply to scrolls, big whoop. +2 always and +4 with scrolls.

Use Magic device also benefits from both spellcraft and decipher script but once again only to scrolls.

Survival probably benefits from more synergies then any other skill,
If you were tracking someone underground and on another plane
And has 5 ranks in search, knowledge the planes, nature and dungeoneering You'd get a +8 bonus, Ok its big, but really if the DM happens to send the party to another plane and has them tracking someone underground.
I think the tracker deserves that +8 bonus for his wide ranged skill investment.

Now lets look to bluff, this skill grants a ton of synergy's but benefits from none.

So tell me where is synergy stacking broken? is it simply they aren't enough?
The only skill that really and meaningfully gets a bonus from multiple synergies is diplomacy but only because diplomacy is broken as is. But if you correct the problem with diplomacy that issue evaporates.

If your trying to make characters more skilled its probably easier just to give them more skill points then rework a system PC's are already familiar with.
I myself increased the base skill points of all classes by 2.
(ie fighters gain 4/level and rogues 10) I considered doubling it but thought it a little crazy.

Ashtagon
2010-05-24, 12:27 AM
Ignoring diplomacy how many skills benefit from more then one synergy at the same time? not many and even fewer for all purposes.
(list of skill synergies)

Or we could just scroll to the bottom of http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm . There are 15 hat are non-circumstantial (always apply), plus another 3 non-circumstantial synergies to non-skills. Plus another 12 circumstantial ones.


So tell me where is synergy stacking broken? is it simply they aren't enough?

It's not so much "broken" as creates a weird jump in the power curve. (Assuming you don't take a skill bonus feat and have no ability score bonus), you jump from +4 at 1st level to +7 (with a single synergy) at 2nd level, and but then afterwards, it just adds +1 per level ever after.

Synergies do give a small boost to the low-skill classes, but as I noted, it is teh high-skill classes that are better able to use them, and they don't give a bonus that continues accruing from level to level (unlike simply fixing the skill points per level issue), so low skill classes still end up falling further behind as time goes on anyway.


The only skill that really and meaningfully gets a bonus from multiple synergies is diplomacy but only because diplomacy is broken as is. But if you correct the problem with diplomacy that issue evaporates.

If your trying to make characters more skilled its probably easier just to give them more skill points then rework a system PC's are already familiar with.
I myself increased the base skill points of all classes by 2.
(ie fighters gain 4/level and rogues 10) I considered doubling it but thought it a little crazy.

Yeah, probably better to drop all forms of synergy entirely than add something new.

I do intend merging some skills (specifically, so far, Appraise and Knowledge merged into Knowledge and/or Craft (depending on specific task), Listen/Spot/Search merged into perception, and Hide/Move Silently merged into Stealth). This goes some way toward fixing the skill point issue anyway.

Apalala
2010-05-24, 01:34 AM
Just wondering, but why not just use the pathfinder rules for skills?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-24, 03:04 PM
One skill to merge without a doubt open lock and disable device just like pathfinder does.

I'd say making listen/spot and search all the same skill is a tiny bit much it makes it into a really uber skill.
Search is about finding objects, or ransacking containers or piles of junk for something. I like search is different enough to be its own skill.[Combing all 3 only benefit the high skill point classes anyway who have them as class skills]

Any scaling effect on synergies shouldn't be based on level it should be on skill ranks. Say 5 ranks in jump gives +2 In Tumble, 10 Ranks gives +3, 15 ranks +4 and 20 ranks, +5.

The fact that high skill classes get better use out of skills should be no surprise they have MORE skill points and a wider selection of skills so they should benefit from skill synergies more.

Appraise can probably be merged into a knowledge/or craft skill, A skill at gem cutting should work to appraise gems however some PC's may want Appraise as its own skill because it has a general use. I just drop the appraise skill as having the PC's go through the effort to find the value of EVERY gem they find gets boring after about two adventures.

Now as to helping low-skill classes the secret may lie in combing the skills they actually use. The combined skills we've said so far don't appear on the skill lists of many low skilled classes.
A skill combo that say benefit a low skill class would be merging climb, swim and jump into say Athletics would greatly help say a fighter.