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MiniMoose
2010-05-23, 03:53 PM
Im writing a campaign and I want to add more fights which are against other humans, like make my own charcters for them to fight. However, I'm unsure of what levels to make them. Is there a level to CR conversion? For my party of four level fives, Id assume four level five npcs is a good CR, but what level of a single cleric would be an acceptable CR for the four of them?

PersonMan
2010-05-23, 03:59 PM
Equal level NPC with a PC class is CR equal to the NPC's level.
A battle with four NPCs of their level will likely end with PC deaths, as it is 4 on-CR encounters, one of which should drain 1/4 of their resources.

MiniMoose
2010-05-23, 04:01 PM
So my 4 level five players should fight one level five charatcer? That seems a bit of an easy fight.

demidracolich
2010-05-23, 04:07 PM
No, two or three is better because with one your players would have a large action advantage as well as other advantages against a single enemy. Single enemies should be at least two cr higher than their level.

Moriato
2010-05-23, 04:09 PM
So my 4 level five players should fight one level five charatcer? That seems a bit of an easy fight.

It should be. The way the CR system is supposed to work (lets just pretend that it does work, for the sake of argument) is that fighting a CR X enemy should take about 20% of the rescources of a level X party of four. It should by no means be an even fight, and barring unforseen events, the party should win every time.

demidracolich
2010-05-23, 04:12 PM
I think some fights should be a bit more challenging than that at least.

MiniMoose
2010-05-23, 04:14 PM
looking at the entries for "halfling" and "elf" in the MM, it shows examples of a lvl 1 halfing and a lvl 1 elf and gives them a CR of 1/2, which leads me to believe that level and CR are not equal. Anyone know of a formula?

Eldariel
2010-05-23, 04:16 PM
I think some fights should be a bit more challenging than that at least.

Which is why the DMG goes up to EL Level+4 for fights you're supposed to fight (50/50 by CR guidelines) and tells you to throw a EL Level+5-> encounter their way rather often so they learn to run/diplo/hide too.

And some races have CR adjustments, which affects humanoid CR. Kobolds, for instance, are lower than normal. And NPC classes advance slower than PC classes.

EDIT: They're NPC classes; both are statted as Warriors which cuts to their CR.

Moriato
2010-05-23, 04:18 PM
I think some fights should be a bit more challenging than that at least.

Well sure, that's why you send them up against two or more CR appropriate creatures for that, or one creature that's a couple CR above the party's level.

If all the fights were even, ie four cr 5 creatures or npcs vs four level 5 PCs, the PCs wouldn't last too long. Basically every fight would be a 50-50 chance of a TPK, assuming both sides are playing to win.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-23, 04:19 PM
looking at the entries for "halfling" and "elf" in the MM, it shows examples of a lvl 1 halfing and a lvl 1 elf and gives them a CR of 1/2, which leads me to believe that level and CR are not equal. Anyone know of a formula?Those examples are Warrior classed characters - and NPC classes give you a CR of level -1. For XP calculation, CR1-1 = 1/2.

See page 37 of the DMG, "Challenge Ratings for NPCs".

Mastikator
2010-05-23, 04:21 PM
I think some fights should be a bit more challenging than that at least.

You'd think so, but the game is designed so that you can grind and farm exp/loot. The PCs are the chosen ones. They aren't supposed to die.

Eldariel
2010-05-23, 04:26 PM
You'd think so, but the game is designed to punish innovation and reward staying on the rail.

...read the DMG. 'cause it specifically tells you not to do it like that.

For the record, the encounter difficulty table from DMG tells you a good approximate for a difficulty split is:
10% Encounter Level under Effective Party Level
20% Encounter Level under Effective Party Level with a trick that makes it harder if not discovered (as an example, a GInvisible Cleric bolstering undead)
50% Encounter Level equal to Effective Party Level
15% Encounter Level 1-4 above Effective Party Level
5% Encounter Level 5+ above Effective Party Level

Page 49. It also tells you to mix things up, use environment, be unpredictable, avoid railroading and so on. So no, the game isn't designed to punish innovation and DMs are encouraged to make it reward innovation and creativity and be innovative and creative themselves.

PCs aren't supposed to die pointlessly, but PC deaths are eminently a part of the game and come with at least -1 level + lots of money punishment (or lots of XP from party Cleric on very high levels). PC death is supposed to happen, and it's supposed to matter.

Runestar
2010-05-23, 07:13 PM
It is also worth nothing that for what the DMG claims, classed npcs are definitely not equal to their cr in class lvs. Yes, on paper, a fighter12 may be cr12, but in actual gameplay, you will probably find that he is much weaker. And this is assuming you have put some effort into optimizing him.

Best bet is to try comparing your finished stat block against existing monsters and going with what is the closest. For example, a fighter9's stats is quite similar to that of a hill giant, so he is probably closer to cr7 than cr9. As you go higher in level, the disparity in cr rises.

So don't be surprised if you throw an EL+4 npc at your party and watch as they proceed to mop the floor with him. Your players are not too strong; it is the npc who is far weaker than his cr would otherwise indicate. :smallsmile:

lsfreak
2010-05-23, 09:22 PM
Facing an equal number of equal-level PC's can be fine. It comes down to
- How well each group is optimized. Aim for the same optimization level as the players.
- How much of everything you remember. Fifth level, you don't have a lot to deal with. If you're trying to run 4 level 15 NPC's at once, you're bound to forget a few things.
- How creatively the players think, and how well they work together.
- Who gets buff rounds. A single round of buffing is enough to significantly alter the balance of power between the two groups, if the buffers are smart.

But I also operate under the premises that CR is borked beyond help. I make educated guesses as to the power of what I throw at the PC's, and give out XP for how hard the fight actually was, not what the CR was.

AslanCross
2010-05-23, 09:28 PM
So my 4 level five players should fight one level five charatcer? That seems a bit of an easy fight.

CR is a guideline for a challenging encounter. That means they expend roughly 1/4 of their resources in the fight. The issue is that humanoid enemies tend to be easier to overwhelm.

Putting together an encounter of four CR 4 NPCs is an EL 8 encounter, which should be "very difficult" for the PCs.

Make sure that your NPC always has the terrain advantage (unless the PCs are the aggressors). Use ambushes, spell slinging from the top of a tower, and other situations where the PCs must do more than "I walk up to him and whack him with my sword."

Another_Poet
2010-05-23, 10:52 PM
Here's my cheat sheet:

{table]If the PC's* are.... | Then their death squad should be...
ECL 1 | 3 CR 1/2's (NPC class level1's)
ECL 2-4 | 4 NPCs each 1 level below the PCs
ECL 5-14 | 4 NPC's each of the same level as the PCs, or 5-6 one level below the PC's
ECL 15-19 | 4 NPC's each one level higher than the PCs, or 5-6 of their same level
ECL 20+ | OMG the Hoff!!!+ [/table]

*Assumes 4-person party
+Cookie for the reference

Seriously, the above should only leave them dead if they are significantly weaker on tactics than their DM. Most of the time players are more tactical than their DMs because they have four human brains dropping problem solving skills on the battle mat whereas the DM only has one, and the DM's is multitasking. This is why we DMs resort to being "evil GMs" and using psy ops and fear because we'll never even scare our players in a straight up fair fight.

So anyway, follow the chart and your players will have a tough but winnable encounter. Tough but winnable - because when some guy with class levels is after you, it's time to huddle.

awa
2010-05-23, 11:13 PM
of course keep in mind that cr is not perfect and this is even more true with classed foes i bet theirs no end to the pepole who will tell you that a cr 20 wizard and a cr 20 fighter are not going to require equal resources to combat. (and thats not even getting into nonassociated levels)

p.s. my spell checker seems to be not working so please forgive any spelling errors

sofawall
2010-05-23, 11:58 PM
of course keep in mind that cr is not perfect and this is even more true with classed foes i bet theirs no end to the pepole who will tell you that a cr 20 wizard and a cr 20 fighter are not going to require equal resources to combat. (and thats not even getting into nonassociated levels)

p.s. my spell checker seems to be not working so please forgive any spelling errors

There's also the whole punctuation and capitalization bits.

Another_Poet
2010-05-24, 12:55 AM
There's also the whole punctuation and capitalization bits.

High five my friend.

Coidzor
2010-05-24, 12:59 AM
How long do you think it'd take the players to realize they were fighting a mirror match if all of their moves were perfectly mirrored?

...How long do you think it'd take them to realize they could just run away and end the encounter twice as fast?

Drakevarg
2010-05-24, 01:01 AM
You'd think so, but the game is designed so that you can grind and farm exp/loot. The PCs are the chosen ones. They aren't supposed to die.

I would recommend staying away from any of my games then. If a PC doesn't have a decent chance of dying in any given encounter, I'm doin it wrong.

Another_Poet
2010-05-24, 01:02 AM
How long do you think it'd take the players to realize they were fighting a mirror match if all of their moves were perfectly mirrored?

...How long do you think it'd take them to realize they could just run away and end the encounter twice as fast?

The best part would be if the mirror match thing was just a trick, and as soon as the PCs turn to run away, the "mirror" images backstab them.

Gahrer
2010-05-24, 09:10 AM
About 90% of the enemies my party has faced during my campaign (3 man party, level 17 now) has been humanoids with class levels. To say that the CR-system fails when using such opposition is the understatement of the year. As a rule of thumb; If this
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm
doesn't say that the encounter is at least "overpowering" then my party will mop the floor with it.

Do as Runestar said and compare with excisting monsters or simply check your players characters cheets. How much damage can they take? How much damage will this guy deal on average (accounting chance to hit, base damage, crits etc) and remember that even strong enemies usually wont last more than a couple of rounds unless given a lot of cover/minions.

Doug Lampert
2010-05-24, 10:38 AM
I think some fights should be a bit more challenging than that at least.

And note that the NPC is built off a standard and not very good array and except at very low levels the NPC has significantly less gear. And PC classes are designed to work in mixed groups. Four level 5 PCs can normally slaughter one level 5 NPC with minimal losses (possible exception for the Druid NPC and definite exception for the Evil Cleric with a 20 HD animated skeleton he made in a permanently desecrated area).

As other have pointed out single foes lose badly on action economy, and a single NPC has no one to cover his weaknesses. Groups of more lower level foes for the same EL tend to work better for NPCs.

As pointed out by others, challenging <> any real chance against a fresh party. Threatening needs 2-5 EL above party level depending on the DM and players, or needs cheeze like adding two or three "non-associated" class levels to monsters.

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-24, 10:52 AM
I've typically found with my players (and bear in mind my average party size is six not four) that a "boss" creature (in my case, almost exclusively a classed character) can be up to +50% of the PCs level at low-to-mid levels(depending on the character's possible spell selections). A single creature, of course, has all it's own problems (magnified with +50% the number of PCs!)

A good fight, in my games, usually means a mixed array of 1-6 classed characters of various levels, plus a fair number of minions (my rule of thumb for low-level is about half PC level). Which will include ranged attackers, likely flankers and certainly spellcaster support from one or more casters.

The CR is system is okay for giving out XP - sort of - but almost completely useless as a good balancer. EL is utterly pointless, on the other hand, as it does absolutely nothing mechanically (as XP is based on CR, not EL). Sadly, like pretty much every other single game out there, in the end, making a challenging encounter means you have to basically do it by eye, working from the specifics of the character's and the player's abilities.

Gnaeus
2010-05-24, 11:21 AM
Seriously, the above should only leave them dead if they are significantly weaker on tactics than their DM. [/I]

It depends a lot on what kind of NPCs they are.

My DM makes NPCs as if they were PCs. If we fight a fighter, he is a charger or a chain tripper (or a mook, in much greater numbers). If we fight a cleric, he's going to have DMM (persist, chain, or quicken). If we fight a monk, he's going to have Psi War levels or Talashtora. All of them have way more charged items than a PC would have (esp potions).

Tactics are great, but if the NPCs are built intelligently and the fights are roughly even, there is a lot of random chance in the mix. It can come down to initiative or a few saving throw rolls.


I've typically found with my players (and bear in mind my average party size is six not four) that a "boss" creature (in my case, almost exclusively a classed character) can be up to +50% of the PCs level at low-to-mid levels(depending on the character's possible spell selections). A single creature, of course, has all it's own problems (magnified with +50% the number of PCs!)

It still depends. A well built level 9 Cleric, Wizard or Druid can easily TPK a level 6 party (Round 1. Cleric wins initiative. Flame Strike (empowered from rod) Flame Strike 2 (with DMM quicken), enemy casters are probably dead, and melee is crippled). A well built level 9 ubercharger probably can't, but he might easily kill half of them before he fails a will or reflex save.