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Fouredged Sword
2010-05-23, 06:18 PM
ok, am I reading this wrong or something? The final Stone Dragon strike,
MOUNTAIN TOMBSTONE STRIKE
has no prereqs for Known manuvers, so any user just has to have a high enough level. This sounds wrong. Is there errata I am missing. If so what is the number of strikes needed to learn this move?

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 06:22 PM
ok, am I reading this wrong or something? The final Stone Dragon strike,
MOUNTAIN TOMBSTONE STRIKE
has no prereqs for Known manuvers, so any user just has to have a high enough level. This sounds wrong. Is there errata I am missing. If so what is the number of strikes needed to learn this move?

I'm not aware of any errata. It's possibly an error, but note that Stone Dragon is the only discipline available to all three classes, and that (IIRC) its final ability is one of the weakest ones, for almost any purpose. It's there as a safety net for poor planning.

Tinydwarfman
2010-05-23, 06:22 PM
HAHAHAHAH!

No, seriously. This was wizard's biggest wtf moment in history. They got a paragraph into the ToB errata, and then it just got cut off and became the complete mage errata. No errata for you!

Faleldir
2010-05-23, 06:22 PM
Nope! That's the beauty of 3.5, it doesn't care!

Swordsage'd!

AslanCross
2010-05-23, 06:27 PM
I'm still sore about this subject. :smallfurious:

Jair Barik
2010-05-23, 06:29 PM
I'm still sore about this subject. :smallfurious:

It could be worse. One of the feats could be woefully underpowered or intriguingly useful depending on wether you read its summary or its entry! Oh... wait....

Mando Knight
2010-05-23, 06:30 PM
Swordsage'd!

Because every Ninja worth his salt is actually a Swordsage/Rogue. :smalltongue:

Boci
2010-05-23, 06:30 PM
Even worse one poster (I think it was Sinfire Titan) emailed WotC and asked if he copuld make an errata for them and was told no.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-23, 06:34 PM
It could be worse. One of the feats could be woefully underpowered or intriguingly useful depending on wether you read its summary or its entry! Oh... wait....
Which are you referring to?


Even worse one poster (I think it was Sinfire Titan) emailed WotC and asked if he copuld make an errata for them and was told no.
To be fair, they'd have to review anything he submitted and it would be a fair amount of work for them to support a product they no longer really care about. But the fact that they published that part of an errata indicates that there is more errata somewhere that they just never bothered publishing, despite his e-mail.

Jair Barik
2010-05-23, 06:38 PM
The shadow blade feat. Summary and description seem to be describing different things. One trades one stat fr another with certain weapons, one adds an extra stat to damage when in a certain stance type.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-23, 06:39 PM
Because every Ninja worth his salt is actually a Swordsage/Rogue Factotum. :smalltongue:Rogue sucks.


To be fair, they'd have to review anything he submitted and it would be a fair amount of work for them to support a product they no longer really care about. But the fact that they published that part of an errata indicates that there is more errata somewhere that they just never bothered publishing, despite his e-mail.Why don't we just make one anyway? As long as we don't include enough of the original to break the nondisclosure agreement inherent in non-OGL material, they can't really do much. Especially if it's an anonymous group project.

Boci
2010-05-23, 06:39 PM
The shadow blade feat. Summary and description seem to be describing different things. One trades one stat fr another with certain weapons, one adds an extra stat to damage when in a certain stance type.

Why is dex instead of strength underpowered? You can dump strength.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-23, 06:44 PM
Why is dex instead of strength underpowered? You can dump strength.

It's not necessarily.

Dex instead of strength is underpowered compared to Dex plus strength.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-23, 06:45 PM
Rogue sucks.
No, the class is fine if you do the work. You're simply not accessing all the 21 supplements you need to get the ACFs, feats, and items to make the class work nicely. :smallsmile:

demidracolich
2010-05-23, 06:46 PM
i don't think he's saying its underpowered, hust that the wording of the two descriptions are different and confusing.

Ferrin
2010-05-23, 06:47 PM
No, the class is fine if you do the work. You're simply not accessing all the 21 supplements you need to get the ACFs, feats, and items to make the class work nicely. :smallsmile:

Does it involve Truedeath crystals, Craven and darkstalker feats, and PRC's?

Jair Barik
2010-05-23, 06:49 PM
Precisely.
As it is in the full description you can get strength, intelligence and dexterity added to the damage of all your attacks with a little bit of swashbuckler in the mix. Rogue likes (characters not games) often take decent Int and dex but often out points into Strength too so they can fulfill a close combat sneak attacking role and so they can carry things without their spines snapping under the weight of their sword.

Boci
2010-05-23, 06:51 PM
No, the class is fine if you do the work. You're simply not accessing all the 21 supplements you need to get the ACFs, feats, and items to make the class work nicely. :smallsmile:

Even if you get full SA against everything, aren't you still a melee character with d6 hp who stand adjecent to a monster.

Ferrin
2010-05-23, 06:54 PM
Even if you get full SA against everything, aren't you still a melee character with d6 hp who stand adjecent to a monster.

How high do you need to get your Hide check to pull it off without being seen?

The Glyphstone
2010-05-23, 06:57 PM
How high do you need to get your Hide check to pull it off without being seen?

A PrC that grants Hide in Plain Sight.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-23, 07:36 PM
Does it involve Truedeath crystals, Craven and darkstalker feats, and PRC's?
Well, it always involves Craven if you're going to be in combat; that's like Power Attack for a tank class. But there are lots of ways you can go, and every one of them takes significant work to execute well.

There's Penetrating Strike + Education + Knowledge Devotion + max ranks in 6 Knowledge skills + Skill Mastery + Savvy Rogue + Fanged Ring + Use Magic Device + wand of Greater Mighty Wallop, as one example of a way to be good in melee (guaranteed to out-hit the full BAB classes from about level 12 on).

Or if you're going for a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer, you've pre-booked most decisions through selection of your level 9 feat (Spring Attack), including buying Mobility as an armor enhancement and a keen rapier as your melee weapon -- either that, or you're not building the Rogue efficiently.

The Craven-less approach can be accomplished with Quick trait + Boots of Speed + Glove of Storing + Quick Reconnoiter + Use Magic Device + wand of Alter Self (to assume the form of a Varag) + Skill Mastery + max ranks & items to boost Spot, Tumble, and Sleight of Hand: Spot every bit of gear on an enemy, Tumble 100' to them, nick all that stuff with free action Sleight of Hand checks, and Tumble 100' away (putting obstacles in the way to prevent a charge attack).

Lots of possibilities. Lots of fun. But lots of work, too. :smallamused:

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-23, 07:37 PM
That's always been a pet peave of mine that the core stealth class doesn't have the must have stealth ability. HiPS is freakin core what were they thinking?

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 07:43 PM
That's always been a pet peave of mine that the core stealth class doesn't have the must have stealth ability. HiPS is freakin core what were they thinking?

You're looking at D&D 3 from the perspective of someone who has the dozens of splatbooks, years of experience, and actual playtesting. They were looking at it from the PoV of 'alright, we worked out all of the hard rules and crap, this looks like it works, and it works at the low levels we played with the 11 classes we have, and the high levels are just more of the same really.'

Boci
2010-05-23, 07:47 PM
That's always been a pet peave of mine that the core stealth class doesn't have the must have stealth ability. HiPS is freakin core what were they thinking?

I think rangers were meant to be the stealth class. Rogue's were supose to specialize in a wide variety of skills, stealth being one of them.

Tavar
2010-05-23, 07:47 PM
I don't know. My first thought on seeing the HiPS ability was "why doesn't the rogue have this?". At the time I had only the PHB+the DMG, and hadn't really played much.

Endarire
2010-05-23, 07:49 PM
All Stone Dragon maneuvers require you to stand on the ground to use them. You should by reliably flying by then.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-23, 07:50 PM
That's always been a pet peave of mine that the core stealth class doesn't have the must have stealth ability. HiPS is freakin core what were they thinking?

Personally I'd throw it in the Rogue special abilites, a bit weak but so are most of the existing ones, if you're bothered by it. You do realise you are talking about the people that didn't give an unarmed fighting class proficiency with unarmed attacks, gave us the mind-breakage that is drown-healing (with no way to stop said drowning) and has introduced enough jokes into otherwise serious rules text that it's never entirely clear what the intent actually is (the power Deja Vu was printed twice, the spell components for Fireball are the ingredients for gunpowder, many illusion spells have wool listed as a component to literally and figuratively "pull the wool over their eyes", the power Deja Vu was printed twice, the Genius Loci (a monster that camoflagues itself as the terrain you are walking on) has Jump as its only listed skill, etc.).

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-23, 07:50 PM
It's not necessarily.

Dex instead of strength is underpowered compared to Dex plus strength.

And that is more powerful how?

Generally, when I run a shadow hand-heavy swordsage, I'm running a Strongheart Halfling with a STR score of 6. Thus, INSTEAD of a -2, I have a +5 (at level 1) for a total of +7 bonus. Wheras if I were to add them, it would be only a +3. It's more advantageous, normally, for a replacement than an addition.

Y'see, some of us use point buy rather than roll 1d6+12...

AstralFire
2010-05-23, 07:50 PM
I don't know. My first thought on seeing the HiPS ability was "why doesn't the rogue have this?". At the time I had only the PHB+the DMG, and hadn't really played much.

My guess, given that Shadowdancer gets it, was worries about Sneak Attacks being too strong and the hope that it would weaken the rogue's offense to get it.

Runestar
2010-05-23, 08:03 PM
All Stone Dragon maneuvers require you to stand on the ground to use them. You should by reliably flying by then.

Maybe if you hid a clump of dirt in the sole of each shoe...:smalltongue:

That said, has anyone compiled an unofficial list of ToB stuff that requires errata? I have noticed some erroneous material in the book, plus the errata did touch on a few areas before being replaced with complete mage stuff. Or shall we create our own errata now?:smallsmile:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-23, 08:10 PM
Maybe if you hid a clump of dirt in the sole of each shoe...:smalltongue:

I got a jar of diiiirrrt, I got a jar of diiirrrt... and guess what's in siiiiide...

Curmudgeon
2010-05-23, 08:11 PM
Personally I'd throw it in the Rogue special abilites
The Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) variant can get Ranger/Scout-style Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight as special abilities, giving HiPS (natural terrain only) by level 13 (but at the expense of Skill Mastery and Crippling Strike, the more common choices for level 10 & 13 specials).

Runestar
2010-05-23, 08:22 PM
So to get the ball rolling...

Unofficial Giantip's ToB errata

Initiator lv clarification - half non-martial adept lv, round down, min 1.

1) Classes

a) Crusader:
i) Delay stance at 2nd lv to 5th lv
ii) Delay stance at 8th lv to 9th lv
iii) Delay stance at 14th lv to 15th lv

b) Swordsage:
i) Delay stance at 14th lv to lv15
ii) Starting skill points reduced to (6+int mod)x4, not x6
iii) Wis mod to AC should work when wearing light armour or no armour

Crimson mask npc - either give him martial weapon prof: longbow, or change race to elf (which involves revising his stats).

c) Warblade:
i) Delay stance at 4th lv to 6th lv
ii) Delay extra maneuver readied from 4th lv to 5th lv

Feel free to add on.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-23, 08:54 PM
Allow Shadow Blade Feat to make Dex Add or Replace Str for damage with Shadow Hand Weapons. Replace only if Str Mod is negative, obviously. :smallbiggrin:

PId6
2010-05-23, 09:06 PM
Each character may only be affected by White Raven Tactics once per encounter, no matter the source.

Iron Heart Surge is a mental action that can be performed while paralyzed. If you are charmed or dominated while this is readied, on your first turn after the spell you make an additional Will save against the effect; if the save succeeds, you initiate this maneuver to end the charm or domination. (This also needs a specific list of things that it can end, but I'm not sure where to start.)

Tinydwarfman
2010-05-23, 09:06 PM
So to get the ball rolling...

Unofficial Giantip's ToB errata

Feel free to add on.

Searing Blade is a Swift action.

White Raven Tactics does not count you as your own ally. (actually, we should probably just get a general consensus whether you count as your own ally in general)

Iron Heart Surge is a purely mental action, and can be used even when a character could not normally take a standard action. It can remove anything from this list: Stunned, Shaken, Sickened, Petrified, Paralyzed, Panicked, Nauseated, Frightened, Fatigued, Exhausted, Dazzled, Dazed, Cowering, and Confused. If an effect would normally persist longer than the encounter would last, it resumes after the encounter is over.

my 2cp. Open to suggestions.

lsfreak
2010-05-23, 09:08 PM
So to get the ball rolling...

Unofficial Giantip's ToB errata

-snip-

I don't like this list so far. It's not errata, it's fundamentally changing certain aspects. Errata should be ONLY for clarifying contradictory or confusing passages, or fixing obviously broken (either way too good/way too bad) things. Master of the Nine prereqs, for example, could be in the range of errata, because RAI at least has the potential to point to less feats being needed (plus it's ridiculous anywho). Changing warblade stances? Zero precedence.

Boci
2010-05-23, 09:10 PM
I don't like this list so far. It's not errata, it's fundamentally changing certain aspects. Errata should be ONLY for clarifying contradictory or confusing passages, or fixing obviously broken (either way too good/way too bad) things. Master of the Nine prereqs, for example, could be in the range of errata, because RAI at least has the potential to point to less feats being needed (plus it's ridiculous anywho). Changing warblade stances? Zero precedence.

Doesn't it make sense to change the level a new stance is learnt to when stances of a higher level become available?

sofawall
2010-05-23, 09:17 PM
Not really. I assume the devs realized what level classes got stuff. For example, off the top of my head, the White Raven capstone can only be gotten by feat or multiclassing.

Runestar
2010-05-23, 09:25 PM
Not really. I assume the devs realized what level classes got stuff. For example, off the top of my head, the White Raven capstone can only be gotten by feat or multiclassing.

Which I think is buggy, if you realise that a crusader has to wait until lv14 if he wants a 5th or 6th lv stance, or is otherwise forced to waste a feat at 9th lv or take 2 class lvs elsewhere to delay his stance progression.

And you are probably referring to the devoted spirit capstone. The stance which lets you make fort saves to avoid dying from negative hp.

I delayed warblade stance to 6th lv since I noticed he normally gets new stances at an even lv (like a sorc). Maneuver readied seems to be granted every 5th lv, so pushing from 4th lv to 5th lv seems about right.

Oh yes, scorching sirroco's mark of fire should probably reference tumble instead of spellcraft (which is not a class skill for swordsages anyways).

Some maneuvers also seem a tad too weak or strong for their lv, but I am not sure if this falls within the realm of errata. But considering how 4e errata is revising how special attacks work, I say we are good. :smallcool:

FlamingKobold
2010-05-23, 09:25 PM
...the power Deja Vu was printed twice... the power Deja Vu was printed twice...

I see what you did there :smalltongue:

I agree with the proposed errata, because it makes a lot more sense than the classes themselves.

taltamir
2010-05-23, 09:34 PM
That's always been a pet peave of mine that the core stealth class doesn't have the must have stealth ability. HiPS is freakin core what were they thinking?

I am convinced that the vast majority of rule writers in WotC don't actually play the games. Oh, they have a few test runs here and there... but only on the clock. They don't meet up with their friends on the weekend to actually play the game for fun.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-23, 09:36 PM
So to get the ball rolling...

Unofficial Giantip's ToB errata

Initiator lv clarification - half non-martial adept lv, round down, min 1.Should be rounded up; otherwise, you need 4 levels in non-martial-adept classes to get to initiator level 2.

Runestar
2010-05-23, 09:50 PM
Should be rounded up; otherwise, you need 4 levels in non-martial-adept classes to get to initiator level 2.

Isn't that the whole point? Wotc's precedent is to always round down, but I noticed in the sample npcs, those with 1 non-adept lv still add +1 IL. So my conclusion is that a fighter1 has IL1, while a fighter3 still has IL of only 1.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-23, 10:21 PM
Changing warblade stances? Zero precedence.
I am absolutely positive that I saw a quote from one of the writers of ToB admitting that they hadn't really given much thought to the Stance progression of the classes, and in hindsight they should have had the stances appear at levels where new stances are actually available. Seems reasonable.

Moreover, errata often fixes broken or stupid oversights. This seems to fall in that realm.

Swooper
2010-05-23, 10:38 PM
The shadow blade feat. Summary and description seem to be describing different things. One trades one stat fr another with certain weapons, one adds an extra stat to damage when in a certain stance type.
Even worse, the table mentions Shadow Sun weapons.

I am absolutely positive that I saw a quote from one of the writers of ToB admitting that they hadn't really given much thought to the Stance progression of the classes, and in hindsight they should have had the stances appear at levels where new stances are actually available. Seems reasonable.
I've seen the same quote somewhere.

Runestar
2010-05-23, 10:54 PM
I think it would be too strong to allow shadow blade to allow you to either use dex in place of str, or add str and dex to damage, whichever is better.

Seeing as to how it is essentially the damage version of weapon finesse, I would rule in favour of the feat entry, that it simply uses dex in place of str. Still gives the edge for TWF'ers, since you add full dex to damage even on off-hand weapons, though you won't get 1.5 dex mod on damage for spiked chains.

Most players who take weapon finesse dump str anyways. :smalltongue:

JaronK
2010-05-24, 02:11 AM
I am convinced that the vast majority of rule writers in WotC don't actually play the games. Oh, they have a few test runs here and there... but only on the clock. They don't meet up with their friends on the weekend to actually play the game for fun.

It's more that the rule writers play in heavily house ruled RAI games that let roleplay trump rules, so that they don't notice when RAW is nothing like what they made. Consider Skip's constant comments about how Fighters were leaders "because they go in the front" and all that. There's no way you could call a Fighter a leader class if you actually played by the rules (Diplomacy to get followers, Knowledge History to know about War and Military Tactics, etc)... but if you just hand waved stuff you could make it work.

JaronK

Faleldir
2010-05-24, 02:38 AM
WOTC logic:
1. No one wants to play a healer.
2. We give Clerics a more varied spell list, including personal buffs and SODs.
3. We test Clerics as a support class only.
4. When someone plays a Cleric aggressively, we are surprised that they don't want to play a healer.
5. We continue to release hundreds of new Cleric spells, which they know automatically.

Endarire
2010-05-24, 02:56 AM
-Hydra Slaying Strike (Strike) - Setting Sun7 (Swordsage7), Requires Three Setting Sun maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action, Range: Melee attack

As a standard action, make a single melee attack against a creature. If the attack misses, nothing happens but the maneuver is expended.
If the attack hits, the creature takes full damage and can only attack once with any one of its weapons, natural or manufactured, until the end of its next turn. It can choose to attack once during its turn or make a single attack of opportunity before the end of its next turn. It gains no benefit from Cleave, haste, Whirling Frenzy, a weapon of Speed, or other means of granting it extra attacks.
If a hydra is hit by this strike, it suffers the effects above and it must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 17 + your WIS modifier or be slain instantly as a death effect. Each head the hydra has that's capable of attacking increases the Fortitude save DC of this strike by 1.

-Iron Heart Surge (Special) - Iron Heart3 (Warblade3), Requires One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action, Range: Self, Target: You

When affected by a non-instantaneous mind-affecting effect such as charm monster or dominate person; or a movement-impairing effect like being grappled or being stuck on a patch of grease, you can activate Iron Heart Surge as a standard action to end one such effect on you. For example, you would no longer be charmed or dominated, your grappler would lose its hold on you, or you could move freely in that patch of grease until you left it. Were you grappled and affected by a slow spell, you could activate Iron Heart Surge but only remove one of these effects.
You can do this even when not in control of your actions or when you can't move, but you must be conscious and not helpless to activate Iron Heart Surge.
Finally, when using Iron Heart Surge, you gain +2 morale accuracy until the end of your next turn.

-White Raven Command - White Raven8 (Crusader8, Warblade8), Requires Three White Raven maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action, Range: 30', Target: 1 ally (Not You)

Choose an ally within range, not including yourself. You give him an extra turn immediately after your turn. His normal initiative count doesn't change.
You two must be able to see or hear each other, and must know where each other's location. You don't need line of effect to your ally.
A creature can be affected by White Raven Command only once per round.

-White Raven Tactics - White Raven3 (Crusader3, Warblade3), Requires One White Raven maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action, Range: 30', Target: 1 ally (Not You)

Choose an ally within range, not including yourself. You can give him part of your turn you haven't taken - a move, standard, or full-round action. He then takes this extra turn immediately after your turn. His normal initiative count doesn't change.
You two must be able to see or hear each other, and must know where each other's location. You don't need line of effect to your ally.
A creature can be affected by White Raven Tactics only once per round.


New & Overhauled Stances
-Aura of Chaos (Stance) - Devoted Spirit6 (Crusader6), Requires Two Devoted Spirit maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action, Range: See Text, Target: See Text

When in this stance, you emanate an aura out to 10', including yourself and all allies in range that you choose.
Whenever an affected creature rolls the maximum number on a die, such as a 4 on a d4, he may continue rolling that die and adding the result so long as the die has the maximum number.
For example, if you attacked with a with a weapon that did 2d6 damage and got 5 and 6, you could reroll the result of 6 until it was no longer a 6, adding all rolled numbers.
This stance has no effect on numbers that aren't rolled or rolls that are guaranteed to get the maximum number.

-Aura of Pefect Order (Stance) - Devoted Spirit6 (Crusader6), Requires Two Devoted Spirit maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action, Range: See Text, Target: See Text

When in this stance, you emanate an aura out to 10', including yourself and all allies in range that you choose.
Each creature may, once per round, treat one d20 roll as an 11. Doing so requires no action.

-Aura of Triumph (Stance) - Devoted Spirit6 (Crusader6), Requires Two Devoted Spirit maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action, Range: See Text, Target: See Text

When in this stance, you emanate an aura out to 10', including yourself and all allies in range that you choose.
Whenever an affected creature hits a foe in melee, all creatures affected by Aura of Triumph heal 4 HP. Each creature can benefit from only one Aura of Triumph at a time.

-Aura of Tyranny (Stance) - Devoted Spirit6 (Crusader6), Requires Two Devoted Spirit maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action, Range: See Text, Target: See Text

When in this stance, you emanate an aura out to 10', including all enemies and willing allies in range that you choose.
Each round on a creature's turn, it loses 4 HP (or less if it has less) and you gain this amount. A creature can't lose HP to take it past dead; normally 0 HP for constructs and undead or -(10 + creature's CON modifier) HP for most other targets.

Coidzor
2010-05-24, 02:58 AM
It's more that the rule writers play in heavily house ruled RAI games that let roleplay trump rules, so that they don't notice when RAW is nothing like what they made. Consider Skip's constant comments about how Fighters were leaders "because they go in the front" and all that. There's no way you could call a Fighter a leader class if you actually played by the rules (Diplomacy to get followers, Knowledge History to know about War and Military Tactics, etc)... but if you just hand waved stuff you could make it work.

JaronK

Wait, that's what it was? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-24, 03:24 AM
Wait, that's what it was? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I remember the sentence in the "fighter with class" article. BTW, It's like our group always played them, but that's de facto an houserule.

EDIT: even if, some built needs mental stats that can bring a reasonably smart and charismatic PC, lacking of Skill Points anyway..

Jair Barik
2010-05-24, 03:34 AM
Allow Shadow Blade Feat to make Dex Add or Replace Str for damage with Shadow Hand Weapons. Replace only if Str Mod is negative, obviously. :smallbiggrin:

I disagree with this. As it is I think either you follow one interpretation or the other in order to errata it. You don't take what you see as the best of both worlds and make some strange gestalt of the feat.

Greenish
2010-05-24, 03:47 AM
Doesn't it make sense to change the level a new stance is learnt to when stances of a higher level become available?There's a precedence for it of sorts in beguiler, which gets Expanded Knowledge (or whatever) a level before getting new spell level.

My guess, given that Shadowdancer gets it, was worries about Sneak Attacks being too strong and the hope that it would weaken the rogue's offense to get it.In core, Assassin gets HiPS at ECL 13. Of course, players aren't supposed to be evil (and/or monsters). :smallmad:


[Edit]: The premade warblade character has a longbow, even though he isn't proficient with them.

HunterOfJello
2010-05-24, 04:24 AM
FYI

Many Tome of Battle questions were answered in the 3.5e FAQ issued by WoTC. You can find the FAQ at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a . It's the first one at the top. It provides information clarifying how Crusader's maneuvers recharge, among other things.

Jair Barik
2010-05-24, 04:36 AM
And one of the premade characters in CW (I think :smallconfused:) doesn't qualify for his own PrC :smallamused:

As a general rule I believe people ignore those sheets.

Desert Wind gets better with levels but the rituals do nothing to its stats, only the first ritual effects Faithful avenger, supernal clarity's second ritual does nothing, none of Kamate's abilities are tied to its rituals, eventide's edge the second ritual has no effect, 2nd legacy of Umbral awn has no effect, none of unfettereds rituals effect it, only the first ritual of the blade of the last citadel
effects it.

This is something that has always bugged me about the book. hat siad Tiger Fang's rituals all do something to it.

Runestar
2010-05-24, 04:59 AM
There's a precedence for it of sorts in beguiler, which gets Expanded Knowledge (or whatever) a level before getting new spell level.

And so every beguiler automatically splashes 1 lv of mindbender at 6th lv to delay expanded knowledge by 1 lv. :smallamused:

2xMachina
2010-05-24, 05:10 AM
And takes mindsight with it.

Greenish
2010-05-24, 05:12 AM
And so every beguiler automatically splashes 1 lv of mindbender at 6th lv to delay expanded knowledge by 1 lv. :smallamused:And so WotC can mutter stuff about "rewarding system mastery (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorsSavingThrow)".

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-24, 06:49 AM
I am absolutely positive that I saw a quote from one of the writers of ToB admitting that they hadn't really given much thought to the Stance progression of the classes, and in hindsight they should have had the stances appear at levels where new stances are actually available. Seems reasonable.

Moreover, errata often fixes broken or stupid oversights. This seems to fall in that realm.

I also remember reading this somewhere too.

I wholeheartedly support this project.

Jeff240sx
2010-05-24, 10:28 AM
A PrC that grants Hide in Plain Sight.

Does Swordsage really need that?
Cloak of Deception + Hide should do the trick, starting at level 3...