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Bushidough
2010-05-24, 03:09 PM
Hi all. I'm fairly new to D&D in general (only played one short game), so I hope you'll bear with me!

My question is this: How do you obtain a second 5ft step or a 10 ft step?

I've had a good look, but can seem to find anything except "Press the advantage" a white raven stance (ToB p93). It there an item or feat that does this?

Edit: 3.5E

Optimystik
2010-05-24, 03:11 PM
Psionics has it too: Capricious Step (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm#capriciousStep)

Greenish
2010-05-24, 03:12 PM
Magitech rollerskates (will find a link in a moment) and someone's training dummy of forced monk levels.

Person_Man to the rescue:
Ways to qualify for Skirmish and get a full attack that I know of, with linky goodness.

Ways to get Pounce (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=5305146#post5305146)
Multi-Pounce (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-444438)
Magic Rollerskates (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a)
Greater Manyshot (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#greater-manyshot)
Evasive Reflexes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060706a) + AoO (reach weapon, Karmic Strike, Hold the Line, etc)
Hustle (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersGtoP.html#hustle)
Psicrown of the Evader (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Psicrown_of_the_Evader)
Leadership (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/featsAll.html#leadership): Get Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) and/or White Raven Tactics (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) using followers.
Press the Advantage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a)
Elocator (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicElocater.html)


Unconventional methods:

DC 40 Tumble Check: Allows you to take a 10 ft. step. From Oriental Adventures. Actually not that hard to do with Skill Focus (Tumble), 1 level of Exemplar, 1 level of Marshal, and a few magic items.

Sparring Dummy of the Master: Arms and Equipment Guide. Permanent 10 ft steps. But it requires you take Monk levels, and its 3.0 material.

Grapple with 10 feet of reach: Grappling Moves you into enemy's square. And you can make one Grapple check for each attack you have (even once you're Grappled, as clarified by the Rules Compendium). So you can just spend your first attack/Grapple check to Move you and your enemy, then continue to attack/Grapple.

Buy an trained dog, or get a familiar or animal companion. Have them Grapple you each turn. You can choose to automatically fail an opposed check. If it has three attacks, it can Grapple you, Move both of you, and then release the Grapple.

Buy an trained dog, or get a familiar or animal companion. Have it Bull Rush you each turn. Again, you can choose to automatically fail an opposed check.

Falling is a free action. A Scout with any method of flight and a Ring of Feather Falling (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ring_of_feather_falling) could qualify for Skirmish every other round without having to take any action.

Dervish: I hate this class for a variety of reasons. But it works.

Eldariel
2010-05-24, 03:13 PM
Training Dummy of the Master [Arms & Equipment Guide] requires a level of Monk or a Use Magic Device-check, but gets you the ability permanently. DC 40 Tumble-check [Oriental Adventures] always works. Combined with Press the Advantage, either can give you effective 20ft. steps!

IonDragon
2010-05-24, 03:18 PM
There's an item in the MiC: Boots of Sidestepping I believe. Let's you take an additional 5' 3/day IIRC.

Zovc
2010-05-24, 03:23 PM
If you are going to take more than one five-foot step every round, take some levels in scout!

It's not relevant to your concern, but would be totally cool.

RandomLunatic
2010-05-24, 06:58 PM
Elocater 7. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm#capriciousStep) Granted, that is a tad expensive.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-24, 07:17 PM
Training Dummy of the Master [Arms & Equipment Guide] requires a level of Monk or a Use Magic Device-check
That's actually the Sparring Dummy of the Master. And training using Use Magic Device requires 224 successive DC 21 checks, without failure, which is rather more difficult than "a ... check".

jokey665
2010-05-24, 07:22 PM
That's actually the Sparring Dummy of the Master. And training using Use Magic Device requires 224 successive DC 21 checks, without failure, which is rather more difficult than "a ... check".

Not sure where exactly the 224 is coming from but it's almost trivial to get a +20 to UMD, honestly. There's a character in my current campaign that has +20 at level 5~6 with only one rank in it.

Eldariel
2010-05-24, 07:27 PM
That's actually the Sparring Dummy of the Master. And training using Use Magic Device requires 224 successive DC 21 checks, without failure, which is rather more difficult than "a ... check".

Yeah, that's the name; was drawing blank. Thanks. As for the UMD, a bit maybe, but if you're going UMD you'll want the +20 anyways. It should be doable around when you can really afford the item in the first place (in the teens) with Circlet of Persuasion, max ranks and few points of Charisma.

On level 12, for example, 12 Cha, 15 ranks and +3 Circlet with a +2 Cha-cloak would do it, without actually really using anything. Given that's the first time it's under half your expected wealth, seems likely one doesn't have to worry about it before then.


@Jokey: If you do something that lasts for a long time with UMD, you need a check once per hour. Sparring takes a four weeks.

jokey665
2010-05-24, 07:35 PM
@Jokey: If you do something that lasts for a long time with UMD, you need a check once per hour. Sparring takes a four weeks.
Ah, gotcha.

Temotei
2010-05-24, 07:39 PM
12 Cha, 15 ranks and +3 Circlet with a +2 Cha-cloak

You could do it a level lower or with 10 Charisma. You only need +20.

Cieyrin
2010-05-24, 07:51 PM
Hmm, I wonder if I could start off with the big Tumbles and invest in UMD to grab the Sparring Dummy to make it not a worry. The issue I'm seeing is pure Scout doesn't have UMD, IIRC, so there'd have to be shenanigans, like Aerenal Focus or some such...

Temotei
2010-05-24, 08:05 PM
Level 8 is an easy level to get a +15 item and 5 ranks in Use Magic Device with 10 Charisma if Use Magic Device is a cross-class skill.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-24, 08:15 PM
You could train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master as early as level 7, if you work at it. Using Diplomacy to Haggle (see the rules in Complete Adventurer) you could buy it for 9/10th of the list price, using party funds temporarily. After 4 weeks of training sell it back, again using Haggle to get 10/9th of the 50% used value. The actual training cost is only 10,333.33 gp. Since it's not permanent gear for anyone it shouldn't trigger the single item % of total wealth limitation.

Having a 10' step by level 8 should keep a Monk viable for a few more levels. They can use flurry of blows to wail on someone, then step back 10', forcing the enemy to use a move action or charge; in either case they only get a single attack. Repeat as necessary. The Monk will get 3 attacks to the foe's 1. At level 9 the Monk picks up Snap Kick and gets 4 attacks to the foe's 1. The Monk still needs someone to cast Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon), but a single daily 3rd level buff spell isn't asking for too much.

WorstDMEver
2010-05-24, 08:29 PM
Not sure where exactly the 224 is coming from but it's almost trivial to get a +20 to UMD, honestly. There's a character in my current campaign that has +20 at level 5~6 with only one rank in it.

Roll just a single '1' and you fail. If you have to make 224 checks, it's statistically unlikely you'll succeed.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-24, 08:31 PM
Roll just a single '1' and you fail. If you have to make 224 checks, it's statistically unlikely you'll succeed.
False. UMD, like every other skill (save Truespeak?), does not auto-fail on a 1. UMD just has special rules for when the following two things happen at the same time:
You fail.
You rolled a Natural 1.
If the Natural 1 is a success, then there's no problem. Only if the 1 is a fail do you have to worry about it.

Hiest, monkey
2010-05-24, 08:47 PM
I'm fairly certain that as a five-foot step is a move action one can make two a round (a ten foot step). You just can't do anything else. Think of it as a character ducking and weaving through attacks to get away unharmed.

Optimystik
2010-05-24, 08:55 PM
I'm fairly certain that as a five-foot step is a move action one can make two a round (a ten foot step). You just can't do anything else. Think of it as a character ducking and weaving through attacks to get away unharmed.

From Actions In Combat: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)

"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."

What you're describing ("ducking and weaving through attacks") is a Withdraw action, which also precludes taking a 5-foot step.

Douglas
2010-05-24, 08:55 PM
I'm fairly certain that as a five-foot step is a move action one can make two a round (a ten foot step). You just can't do anything else. Think of it as a character ducking and weaving through attacks to get away unharmed.
That's in 4e. This thread is about 3.5.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-24, 09:00 PM
For a Scout character (who really does need to solve the 10' move + full attack problem), you can either take a 1-level dip into Monk (not good synergy) or go the Use Magic Device route to train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master.

UMD is going to require some help. You can go for the Skill Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#skillKnowledge) feat (from Unearthed Arcana) to make UMD a class skill for you. If your party has a spellcaster with Craft Wondrous Item, beg them to make you a skill competence bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues) item. A masterwork UMD tool for Sparring Dummy training will give a +2 circumstance boost.

Edit: One way to tackle the Use Magic Device cross-class problem is to stop at 3 levels of Scout and go Rogue the rest of the way, with Swift Ambusher to stack your levels for skirmish. You'll get full skirmish plus sneak attack, roughly doubling your precision damage when both apply.

Hiest, monkey
2010-05-24, 09:11 PM
From Actions In Combat: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)

"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."

What you're describing ("ducking and weaving through attacks") is a Withdraw action, which also precludes taking a 5-foot step.

Woops. "Mah b". So to speak.


That's in 4e. This thread is about 3.5.

Now I'm scared: I have read nothing about, and never tried 4e...

Thurbane
2010-05-24, 10:49 PM
The Sidestep feat (MH) allows you take take a 5ft step after an AoO 1/round, which does not count towards your normal 5ft step. The Tactical Soldier PrC gets it as a bonus feat (2nd level), without needing to meet the usual prereqs.

Draz74
2010-05-24, 11:10 PM
Now I'm scared: I have read nothing about, and never tried 4e...

The new rules about 5-foot steps are actually one of my favorite things about 4e. No reason to be scared.


The Sidestep feat (MH) allows you take take a 5ft step after an AoO 1/round, which does not count towards your normal 5ft step. The Tactical Soldier PrC gets it as a bonus feat (2nd level), without needing to meet the usual prereqs.

On that note, there's another option from Tome of Battle: Shifting Defense, Level 5 Setting Sun Stance. It's just as hard to get as Press the Advantage, but I actually like its effect better (at least, if the character can also afford to pick up Combat Reflexes). It lets you burn an Attack of Opportunity for the round and make a 5-foot step anytime you get attacked.

lsfreak
2010-05-25, 02:39 AM
On that note, there's another option from Tome of Battle: Shifting Defense, Level 5 Setting Sun Stance. It's just as hard to get as Press the Advantage, but I actually like its effect better (at least, if the character can also afford to pick up Combat Reflexes). It lets you burn an Attack of Opportunity for the round and make a 5-foot step anytime you get attacked.

And there's Wolf Pack Tactics, take a 5-foot after every attack you make, but requires you to be a near-full ToB character.

With Shifting Defense, the RAI is fairly clear that it's only to take effect after someone misses an attack against you, in both paragraphs of intro/fluff text. RAW, though, could be said to be after any attack.

Eldariel
2010-05-25, 06:49 AM
You could train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master as early as level 7, if you work at it. Using Diplomacy to Haggle (see the rules in Complete Adventurer) you could buy it for 9/10th of the list price, using party funds temporarily. After 4 weeks of training sell it back, again using Haggle to get 10/9th of the 50% used value. The actual training cost is only 10,333.33 gp. Since it's not permanent gear for anyone it shouldn't trigger the single item % of total wealth limitation.

Having a 10' step by level 8 should keep a Monk viable for a few more levels. They can use flurry of blows to wail on someone, then step back 10', forcing the enemy to use a move action or charge; in either case they only get a single attack. Repeat as necessary. The Monk will get 3 attacks to the foe's 1. At level 9 the Monk picks up Snap Kick and gets 4 attacks to the foe's 1. The Monk still needs someone to cast Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon), but a single daily 3rd level buff spell isn't asking for too much.

You still don't really want more than 1-2 levels of Monk, which are fine anyways (going into Sacred Fist or Tashalatora or whatever). As such, it doesn't really help there, but it makes the Monk-dip even better.

And Skill Knowledge is a part of an alternative skill system so it's probably something you could ask for, but at the same time iffy. However, Apprentice: Spellcaster gets you UMD in class too for one feat, and is pretty much written for this very purpose. There's also Item Familiar for easy pumping.

Bushidough
2010-05-25, 11:30 AM
Wow thanks guys, not used to boards with such a fast and comprehensive response time. The Sparring dummy looks like a good plan, perhaps with the boots of sidestepping before i can get hold of it.

The loss of BAB is annoying however as it takes me down to 15 at lvl 20. :(

Still more unfortunate is the fact that I seem to have misunderstood how AoOs work...

Still, knowledge is power, as they say!