Squad of Crusaders vs Wizard [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Eldan

2010-05-24, 04:32 PM

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you intend with TO and PO wizards?

Theoretical Optimization, referring to "the greatest cheese anyone ever cooked up in the Tippyverse" and Practical Optimization, referring to "what you can probably get by your DM without getting a book-induced concussion".

Now, unless the crusaders spend a lot of money on specific items, even a wall of force can still give them trouble. As would a prismatic sphere, or any number of other defences. So, basically, they'd have to make themselves into mini-wizards in order to get through.

If they do that, however, say, by getting items of +UMD and a scroll of Disjunction each, I'd say they could do it.

JaronK

2010-05-24, 04:33 PM

Assume that the Wizard is 20th level (straight, no multiclassing, no PrCs), greatly optimized but still in the realm of what would be possible at a gametable. So no Solar Chain Gate, Infinite Wishes, custom demiplanes et cetera. The Wizard is really powerful, but still withing the game.

Depends too much on the table, really. Custom Demiplanes, for example, are just using a single published spell exactly as written. If your table doesn't allow anything too creative or nasty, the Crusaders can likely win... but if your definition of creative and nasty is just a little too liberal, the Wizard will completely destroy them.

For example, can he have hordes of Plague of Undead created minions, backed up by Awaken Undead so they have abilities and levels, plus a few Necrosis Carnexes? That's classic necromantic tactics, requires only two spells, and would make things quite difficult. Can he use Animate Dread Warrior? Can he use Scry and Die tactics? Hit and run with Teleports? There's all kinds of options.

JaronK

weenie

2010-05-24, 04:35 PM

A properly built level 20 wizard can smash any number of lvl10 Crusaders to bits without much trouble. Spells like fly, contingency, wind wall, resilent sphere will make it impossible for the Crusaders to even get close and the wizard is in no short supply of ways to obliterate any number of them. If the number goes above 100, there are always reserve feats. The only thing that could work is sending so many crusaders after the wizard, that his buffs run out of duration, then he'll be forced to retreat and take a nap.

Cicciograna

2010-05-24, 04:38 PM

Other details: assume the Wizard is the stereotypical Wizard closed in his tower, prepared to fight against everything. He has many traps ready, and prepares his spells to defend himself to the best of his capability: he knows that the Crusaders are after him, but doesn't know their number.
His spells are only from Core.
The Wizard doesn't actively attack the Crusaders before the fight has begun.

The Crusaders know that the Wizard is really powerful, but do not know the real extent of his might: they have access to libraries where they can learn the details of many spells he could cast, but do not ultimately know what awaits them. They can afford many magic items to try to neutralize some of his tactics (for example, if they want, they can pick Wings of Flying: the only limit is the WBL). They know that there are traps laid for them, and if they wish, they can bring along a small squad of rogues to disarm them (not too many and lesser level than theirs, say 5th or 6th), but for the fight they are on their own.

Please note: do not take 20 Crusaders as a hard limit. Imagine you are the captain of a great Crusader brigade, your task is to kill the Wizard or at least capture his tower and you can't resort to any particular tactic involving cheese: you have, however, many, many troops available. How many men would you take with you?

Greenish

2010-05-24, 04:41 PM

How many men would you take with you?None. You gotta know when to fold 'em.

Cicciograna

2010-05-24, 04:42 PM

http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/

By the way, I could take 25 five years old kids.

Eldan

2010-05-24, 04:48 PM

As I said, enough WBL means that they can turn themselves into small wizards with scrolls and one-use items. A few thousands for a ninth-level spell is affordable, after all, especially if some of them pool their resources. And for once, the action economy is actually on their side.

PId6

2010-05-24, 04:50 PM

Are they allowed to pool their WBL? If so, the question becomes just how many epic items do you need to kill one level 20 wizard.

Eldan

2010-05-24, 04:53 PM

They don't need epic. They need scrolls of Disjunction and a SoD targetting fortitude. Probably also initiative boosters to let them go first, and a lot of defences.

Yorrin

2010-05-24, 05:00 PM

no multiclassing, no PrCs, no Solar Chain Gate, Infinite Wishes, custom demiplanes et cetera

Well, my first thought is a Focued Specialist Conjurer. Abrupt Jaunt and Enhanced Summoning ACFs, providing him an easy method of quick escape and pretty powerful summons.

Design the tower such that they're forced to split the party- where two dozen levers in separate rooms have to be pulled simultaneously to lower the walls of force that protect the inner part of the tower. And when the levers are pulled the floors drop out to a 1000ft spiked pit trap, at the base of which wait a summoned dozen (or more) of dire bears (dire bears which, thanks to Enhanced Summoning and Augment Summoning have 39Str and 27Con). Arcane Thesis on Summon Monster 9 allows infinite duration summons (Extend is a +1 metamagic, Arcane Thesis reduces metamagic for one spell by 1), and Celestial Dire Bear is a Summon Monster 8 animal, so that's 1d3 permanent enhanced Dire Bears. Oh- and with each group of Dozen Bears you might as well have a Paeliryon (from Feindish Codex 2) bound via Greater Planar Binding 9at will Meteor Swarm, in addition to other goodness). You can take Arcane Thesis for multiple spells, so might as well make these permanent as well. Oh, and you might as well have the floor close up over top of them so their friends can't just pull them up with some rope. Which also makes it pitch black (Paeliryons have darkvision, you better hope your Crusaders do too) Oh, and for even more fun all the summoned beasts are invisible (it's a +0 metamagic). So you'll need a reliable method of seeing invisibility too.

For the Crusaders that weren't in the lever rooms, they get to face the invisible Paeliryons in the main hall- a hall with high ceilings so the Paeliryons can take advantage of flight. Say there's... 5 of them in there. At best the Wizard's only killed about... 30 of your Crusaders before ever facing them in combat himself, for the expenditure of most of his character wealth and a few days worth of 8th/9th level summons.

And that's without any serious high-level-spell cheese.

Tavar

2010-05-24, 05:00 PM

Seems a like that's going to take up most of the WBL for the group.

Plus, as always, they aren't crusaders doing it, it's items. By that logic, Commoners are just as much of a threat.

Eldan

2010-05-24, 05:03 PM

Yes. As has been said before: the greatest threat for a caster, after another caster, is someone imitating a cater.

Cicciograna

2010-05-24, 05:05 PM

stuff

Wizard takes Core only, as I said.
However, these are clever tricks that could work. But the focus is not on the Wizard, it's on the Crusses.

Seems a like that's going to take up most of the WBL for the group.

Plus, as always, they aren't crusaders doing it, it's items. By that logic, Commoners are just as much of a threat.
This is true, so to answer other questions too: they cannot pool their WBL, so they cannot afford too expensive items, and they try to fight using their class peculiarities, their maneuvers and their stance: items should be only a support.

PId6

2010-05-24, 05:12 PM

Do they have to be crusader 10 or ECL 10? Are LA races allowed?

Obvious things to take assuming no UMD: Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Thicket of Blades, EWP: Spiked Chain, Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach, Standstill. All of them get fiendish grafts for Feathered Wings and Antimagic Torc as well. If possible start with a Large race like Half-Minotaur, but if that's not possible, either human for the feat or Dragonborn Water Orc (and get natural flight so they won't need Feathered Wings). Scout's Headband is also a must for the True Seeing.

Yorrin

2010-05-24, 05:14 PM

Wizard takes Core only, as I said.

Alright, dropping the ACFs and swapping out Pit Fiends for the Paeliryons and dropping Arcane Thesis you could still conceivably have at least 15 Pit Fiends on hand at any given time. Leave the pit-traps devoid of summons but make them deep enough to kill a lvl 10 Crusader, and put all 15 Pit Fiends in a vaulted room with no obvious exit. Since they can blasphemy and fireball snipe to infinity the Crusaders will need a reliable means of flight to do anything. The Fiends are smart enough to target flying mounts, and the have greater dispel magic at-will, so that's going to be tough for any number of them to win.

EDIT:

But the focus is not on the Wizard, it's on the Crusses.

That's the point. If the Wizard isn't doing the fighting he isn't getting killed. That's what a high Int score would tell the Wizard.

J.Gellert

2010-05-24, 05:16 PM

You can't kill a wizard who knows you are coming. Even if all else fails he'll use Celerity and Teleport away.

And in his tower, he probably won't even have to. He can fill the place with traps and continually summon monsters from a hidden position. When he runs out of summoned monsters he'll just insta-rest and repeat.

A smart wizard just doesn't die, even with minimum amounts of cheese.

Eldan

2010-05-24, 05:20 PM

Yeah, even without obvious cheese, he'd probably just summon something on the CR15+ scale for every crusader to fight, then snipe any unlikely survivors.

PId6

2010-05-24, 05:22 PM

Yeah, even without obvious cheese, he'd probably just summon call something on the CR15+ scale for every crusader to fight, then snipe any unlikely survivors.
Fixed. The Summon Monster lists are actually quite limited, but [Calling] spells like Planar Binding are game breakers.

sofawall

2010-05-24, 05:23 PM

This Tower. Could it be built like The Cube? Because then the Crusaders may have a bit more trouble.

Eldan

2010-05-24, 05:27 PM

Fixed. The Summon Monster lists are actually quite limited, but [Calling] spells like Planar Binding are game breakers.

Even with limitations... Summon Monster IX still gives CR 11+ monsters. Enough of those still give the crusaders trouble. But point taken.

Cicciograna

2010-05-24, 05:42 PM

So!, Would 20 Crusses be able to kill the Wizard and conquer the tower (we're not interested in the aftermath: if the Wizard has to leave the tower, he has lost)? What about 40? 60? 100? :smallsmile:

DragoonWraith

2010-05-24, 05:47 PM

So!, Would 20 Crusses be able to kill the Wizard and conquer the tower (we're not interested in the aftermath: if the Wizard has to leave the tower, he has lost)? What about 40? 60? 100? :smallsmile:
Depends how badly the Wizard wants to keep the tower, how much time he's had, whether or not the Crusaders have any way of getting through a Wall of Force, Prismatic Sphere, etc.

I mean... what if there's a point in the tower where the next floor is accessible only through teleportation? You walk up the staircase to a great hall spanning the entirety of the tower, the ceiling two dozen feet up, with no stairs, not even an opening. What do the Crusaders do?

Lycanthromancer

2010-05-24, 05:50 PM

Just using core rules? If I was going all-out? As JaronK said, it all depends on what's allowed. If it's an all-out RAW-fest?

The wizard'll have NI simulacrums (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) of efreet, solars, and epic critters, all of which will either have clerical casting, wishes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) he can use, or some other really NASTY abilities.

He'll use them to get hundreds of thousands of permanencied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) sy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm)mb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm)ol (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm)s (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfSleep.htm) of (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfStunning.htm) X (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfWeakness.htm) to scribe on every single square inch of every hallway in the entire complex (keyed to himself and his simulacrums, of course), as well as things like greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWardingGreater.htm) glyphs of warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) and as many sheets of paper with explosive runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) as he cares to have. He can apply an Extended guards and wards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/guardsAndWards.htm) every day as he wants (or as he wishes, since magical minions are magical). Not to mention permanent image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanentImage.htm) to keep them constantly guessing.

He'll have his body tucked away in a secret location (impossible to reach by any means short of deific planar travel, since he can tie dimension lock dimensional anchor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) effects to an un (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unhallow.htm)/hallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm) spell), and he'll be using astral projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) to keep an eye on things, which he can, of course, get via his efreet's wishes or via a planar bound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm) or simulacrum'd nightmare. He'll also have any number of clones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) and simulacrums of himself.

Then we have contingencies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm), teleportation, undead minions, gated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) critters, etc etc etc. And with the magical trap rules, he can get tons of other stuff to buff himself, destroy his foes, and to make it nigh impossible to actually get to him (such as using permanent teleportation circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) traps disguised as standard teleport-the-owner-to-the-next-part-of-the-dungeon. The first one is. The second teleports to itself, which then teleports to itself, which then teleports to itself in an infinite loop. Since the first circle teleports the soon-to-be victims into another room with the second circle, and the second one essentially leaves the victims in a constant cycle of teleportation, once they're in they're permanently stuck.

Wizards are nasty.

And he can have all of this well before level 20. In fact, he can have this at level 3, or 1, if he really tries.

All RAW.

How many restrictions are we talking about here?

Oslecamo

2010-05-24, 06:28 PM

The wizard'll have NI simulacrums (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) of efreet, solars, and epic critters, all of which will either have clerical casting, wishes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) he can use, or some other really NASTY abilities.

No he won't, because simulacrum specifically states that

but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD

So no, a half HD efreeti/solar certainly won't have their strongest abilities (aka wish SLA) available by any sane reading of RAW. The solars will certainly be casting as clerics 10.

Besides there's nothing stoping the crusaders from buying candles of invocation and going to cheese town.

And he can have all of this well before level 20. In fact, he can have this at level 3, or 1, if he really tries.

Pfft, who can't? Even a super-cheesed out commoner can pull it off.:smallwink:

All RAW.

Not all of it. Your reading of simulacrum is questionable at best (aka you claim the creature will retain all of it's strongest abilities at half CR). And half of your strategy is based on said reading.

Lycanthromancer

2010-05-24, 06:32 PM

No he won't, because simulacrum specifically states that

but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD

So no, a half HD efreeti/solar certainly won't have their strongest abilities available by any sane reading of RAW. The solars will certainly be casting as clerics 10.

Besides there's nothing stoping the crusaders from buying candles of invocation and going to cheese town.

Pfft, who can't? Even a super-cheesed out commoner can pull it off.:smallwink:

Not all of it. Your reading of simulacrum is questionable at best (aka you claim the creature will retain all of it's strongest abilities at half CR). And half of your strategy is based on said reading.Spell-like and Supernatural Abilities can (and often do) have different caster levels than the HD of the creature. In this case, the caster level is 12 for a 10 HD creature. The ability is independent of the creature's 'level', and so, barring independent sources stating otherwise, you can get simulacrums with CL 12 wishes. Unless you'd like to provide evidence directly stating otherwise?

Oslecamo

2010-05-24, 06:37 PM

Spell-like and Supernatural Abilities can (and often do) have different caster levels than the HD of the creature. In this case, the caster level is 12 for a 10 HD creature. The ability is independent of the creature's 'level', and so, barring independent sources stating otherwise, you can get simulacrums with CL 12 wishes. Unless you'd like to provide evidence directly stating otherwise?

Certainly. Savage species provides us with an efreeti progression, and it only gains the wish SLA at 9HD.

Yukitsu

2010-05-24, 06:38 PM

On the other hand, unlimited free sims is pretty firmly a step into TO. Besides, you'd want to use ice assassins.

I'd say as few as 4 sufficiently PO and clever crusaders can defeat a similarly PO and clever wizard.

One of the biggest advantages of a wizard is to hit hard and get out, withering enemies away one by one in these solo experiments. However, crusaders are probably the best class when it comes to avoiding such a quick death, and getting out again means the wizard has to deal with crusaders pretty much back to 100%, as their defensive manuevers will have reset. Once you start getting into things that are on the boundary like meta reducers, you're going to see him one shotting them anyway, but frankly at that point, you may as well have d2 crusaders with crafted contingency (greater celerity).

Edit: You're supposed to get solars with simulacrum to gain free wishes.

jiriku

2010-05-24, 06:51 PM

Could a squad of, say, 20 level 10 Crusaders overcome a very well optimized Wizard, or at least conquer and storm his tower (which in this context would count as a victory for Crusaders' team)? And if not 20, would 40 succeed? 60? 100? Which number, if it exists, should be the minimum number to manage to win this battle?

This is actually pretty straightforward, and I think you can cover it with about 30 crusaders, plus a few dozen supporting troops. Technically, you could do it with a handful, but the rest are needed to handle the unexpected.

The key lies in that statement you made "or at least conquer and storm his tower". The crusader's primary tactic isn't going to be to enter the tower and brave its many wards and defenders. Instead, they're going to use siege weaponry and sappers to demolish it from range or from below. Essentially, you need a number of NPC warriors to man the guns, and the crusaders are there primarily to protect and defend the siege engineers.

The wizard becomes much less deadly when forced out of his tower to attack the siege weapons, and a pack of level 10 crusaders can handle anything he can summon. If he confronts them directly, simple action economy will suffice to stalemate him if the crusaders are well-equipped and prepared for many contingencies (i.e. they're familiar with PHB spells and have brought appropriate defenses for the top 40 or so most common wizard tactics).

Unless the wizard casts gate. If he gates in some beast from the outer planes then it's all over, and no number of level 10 opponents can win.

tyckspoon

2010-05-24, 06:56 PM

Unless the wizard casts gate. If he gates in some beast from the outer planes then it's all over, and no number of level 10 opponents can win.

Or Walls of Force/Prismatic Walls/magically treated adamantine (or tougher) forms the actual structural part of the tower, and all you can do against that is crack the decorative stone shell off the outside, as level 10 wealth won't buy you a catapult that fires the Disjunctions/Disintegrates you'd need to get inside.

Edit: Also Fireball is a deprecated spell for a number of good reasons, but its Long range makes it an excellent counter-artillery strike, especially if you're relying on low-level and/or NPC-classed hirelings/followers to run your siege engines.

Lycanthromancer

2010-05-24, 06:57 PM

This is actually pretty straightforward, and I think you can cover it with about 30 crusaders, plus a few dozen supporting troops. Technically, you could do it with a handful, but the rest are needed to handle the unexpected.

The key lies in that statement you made "or at least conquer and storm his tower". The crusader's primary tactic isn't going to be to enter the tower and brave its many wards and defenders. Instead, they're going to use siege weaponry and sappers to demolish it from range or from below. Essentially, you need a number of NPC warriors to man the guns, and the crusaders are there primarily to protect and defend the siege engineers.

The wizard becomes much less deadly when forced out of his tower to attack the siege weapons, and a pack of level 10 crusaders can handle anything he can summon. If he confronts them directly, simple action economy will suffice to stalemate him if the crusaders are well-equipped and prepared for many contingencies (i.e. they're familiar with PHB spells and have brought appropriate defenses for the top 40 or so most common wizard tactics).

Unless the wizard casts gate. If he gates in some beast from the outer planes then it's all over, and no number of level 10 opponents can win.Problem is the whole 'Schroedinger's Wizard' effect. What are his preparations? How is the tower constructed, and what's it made from? If he made a few homunculi and gave them a bonus to Perform checks (the homunculi in the Eberron Campaign Setting have Int scores, IIRC), then made lyres of building to give to them (and I would, given that your tower is just that important), no amount of siege weaponry would help.

Also, the wizard is level 20. He can plane shift at will. If I were building myself a tower, the actual tower would be a facade; the real rooms would be on an entirely different plane, or would be deep underground under miles and miles of solid stone, all of which would be connected with teleportation circles and whatnot. That building they just destroyed? It's only gonna make me a bit miffed; I can always rebuild it with a few fabricate spells.

raspberrybadger

2010-05-24, 07:13 PM

I like the conjurer way of going about things - with the right buffs and static defences, called creatures can hold off thousands of crusaders.

I think there is a more fun way, requiring 8th level spells and a decently fortified tower. Create greater undead a bunch of spectres. Use magical traps like mass hold person, symbol of weakness (no save on that one), and so on. Perhaps back that up with some (heightened) command undead charmed nightwalkers or something (nightwalkers can pull the greater dispel at will trick, plus they AOE paralyze with a high DC).

Allow spectres to coup de gras the helpless crusaders. 1d4 rounds later, each crusader is another spectre... Assuming a tower geometry such that only a limited number of crusaders can engage at once... That leaves the wizard free to use spells to solve whatever problems arise, especially in the initial waves of crusaders. Oh, and definitely buff up the original spectres. Enough traps and the chances a given crusader makes it through without being helpless are quite small - and at that point, you've got a really large pile of spectres to drain him into the floor. Pouring more crusaders in just makes the problem worse.

Or, just outright cheat... there is this entirely unfair spell called Demand. It allows a long range Suggestion. Use divination to know the crusaders are coming, and who to Demand to order them to go away. These guys have to be fanatically obedient, right, or they wouldn't be willing to charge in and lose the first 40 of them to horrific 9th level spells or whatever, right?

Anyway, I think a more interesting question is, what level do the crusaders have to be so that a core Wiz 20 can't keep out a hundred of them...

JaronK

2010-05-24, 07:20 PM

This is actually pretty straightforward, and I think you can cover it with about 30 crusaders, plus a few dozen supporting troops. Technically, you could do it with a handful, but the rest are needed to handle the unexpected.

The key lies in that statement you made "or at least conquer and storm his tower". The crusader's primary tactic isn't going to be to enter the tower and brave its many wards and defenders. Instead, they're going to use siege weaponry and sappers to demolish it from range or from below. Essentially, you need a number of NPC warriors to man the guns, and the crusaders are there primarily to protect and defend the siege engineers.

The wizard becomes much less deadly when forced out of his tower to attack the siege weapons, and a pack of level 10 crusaders can handle anything he can summon. If he confronts them directly, simple action economy will suffice to stalemate him if the crusaders are well-equipped and prepared for many contingencies (i.e. they're familiar with PHB spells and have brought appropriate defenses for the top 40 or so most common wizard tactics).

Unless the wizard casts gate. If he gates in some beast from the outer planes then it's all over, and no number of level 10 opponents can win.

A single Lyre of Building makes the entire castle completely invulnerable. The Wizard can easily make the DC himself if he wants (he only needs a base +5 to take 10 on it) or he can call some outsider to play it continuously for him. This stops siege weapons, as well as Mountain Hammer attacks.

JaronK

DragoonWraith

2010-05-24, 07:23 PM

I now have an awesome image of a Crusader with a huge sledgehammer taking a swing at the Wizard's tower, and the hammer getting stuck in the building as it's rebuilt just as the hammer is smashing through it...

jseah

2010-05-24, 08:07 PM

COP (or Imp commune):
"When is the next large assault on my tower to occur?"
- Wiz knows the date of the attack
"What general level of magical ability that I will face on that attack?"
- Wiz knows the magic threat scale

These questions are symbolic for an entire questioning scheme meant to root out answers to the two above.

Thus, he knows you're 10th level limited and the time. He'll have planar bound something(s) to help. Lyre of Building makes his tower immune to attack. Various traps can be made permanent.
Monsters can propagate (ghouls / shadows / spectres) to regenerate any lost meatshield resources.
If the crusaders go more than 8~9 hours without the wizard having to interfere, he refreshes his spells.

This is not a winnable battle. It'll take thousands and an entire army with magical equipment.

sambo.

2010-05-24, 11:03 PM

i seriously doubt a squad of 30 lvl10 Crusaders could take down a wizard who's shut up in his own tower.

that tower should all manner of defences, traps and general nastyness in it already, assuming the wizard in question is worth his salt.

now, a squad of lvl10 Crusaders backed up by a few lvl10 or so casters could probably do it.

but shutting down a lvl20 wizard generally means another lvl20 tier 1 caster type.

in any case, if the wizard is prepared for the coming onslaught of lvl10 Crusaders (and he damn well should be ready for it), he should be able deal with pretty impressive odds (like 500+:1).

if you're prepared to go all Leningrad about it and throw 10,000 Crusaders atthe wizard, then you could probably do it. you'll take huge casualties, but hey, you'll get your wizard (assuming he doesn't just teleport out once he realises the battle is lost).

Lamech

2010-05-25, 01:46 AM

COP (or Imp commune):
"When is the next large assault on my tower to occur?"
- Wiz knows the date of the attack
"What general level of magical ability that I will face on that attack?"
- Wiz knows the magic threat scale

Commune doesn't get you accurate answers. It mearly contacts a friendly entity who almost certainly knows pretty much everything. Except if its an Imp casting it, the entity will be friendly to the Imp, not you. And it will probably be opposed to the whole binding of imps. And since its a Devil it will be raised in hell if it dies. So "when is the next X"? Gets you the wrong answer.

CoP will be far more likely to get one useful answers, but... "they resent such contact", so spamming it isn't the best idea and the random results of the tables are subject to the wishes of dieties on the outer planes. Also on rare occassions they may be blocked, which being swarmed by crusaders could easily count. (Still much better than asking someone who probably wants you dead.)

Coidzor

2010-05-25, 02:21 AM

I still haven't seen the wizard's level. Or even a level range. :smallannoyed: Am I blind or are we supposed to be working this out with each level of spells that the wizard could have access to?

Eldan

2010-05-25, 02:32 AM

He's level 20. That was mentioned somewhere, I think.

jseah

2010-05-25, 05:00 AM

Cicciograna

2010-05-25, 06:29 AM

Many of you are considering that this Wizard has unlimited economic resources. He doesn't. He has the amount of gold that a 20th level PC would have, and, as I said, no Platinum Demiplane or Infinite Wishes cheese is allowed, as I don't think anybody of you, as a DM, would allow it, so the Wiz is constrained to his current wealth.
You're talking about a tower made of adamantine, Wall of force, NI simulacra of epic critters and the like. The SBG lists absurd prices for special walls, and the Wizard has only so much money. The Wizard has to pay for every trap he has; he has to pay for every material component he uses; every time he needs a gem worth X gp, he has to pay X gp, from his pocket.

Plus, he has a finite allotment of XP: he cannot lose a level to make permanent too many spells, he cannot lose too many XPs to make simulacra.

Please, mind these constraints. I repeat, the Wizard is optimized, but he's not so optimized that he would be kicked out from a game.

I still haven't seen the wizard's level. Or even a level range. :smallannoyed: Am I blind or are we supposed to be working this out with each level of spells that the wizard could have access to?

Assume that the Wizard is 20th level (straight, no multiclassing, no PrCs), greatly optimized but still in the realm of what would be possible at a gametable. So no Solar Chain Gate, Infinite Wishes, custom demiplanes et cetera. The Wizard is really powerful, but still withing the game.

Here your are, my good man.

Greenish

2010-05-25, 06:32 AM

I repeat, the Wizard is optimized, but he's not so optimized that he would be kicked out from a game.You know, that tells us exactly nothing.

Oslecamo

2010-05-25, 06:44 AM

Please, mind these constraints. I repeat, the Wizard is optimized, but he's not so optimized that he would be kicked out from a game.

Unfortenely, that still isn't very clear. I've allowed abrupt jaunt wizards and incantrixes on some of my games. I know of people who allowed wish chains (altough never saw anyone allowing wish simulacrums tough as it doesn't even follows RAW). Altough wish chains can be abused by the crusaders as well so that's a moot point, but powerfull wizard prcs and feats can make a world of diference.

Also, time. Even if you remove all the cheese, there's still stuff like casting walls of stone(no expensive components) every day to make your frotress cheap, and spells that are just nasty by themselves (gate, polymorph).

In particular, one lv20 vs 20 lv10s is definentely something you don't see in your average game. Things start geting wonky when oponents of such diferent levels meet. Most 9th and 8th lv spells are very very powerfull and 10th lv characters just can't get reliable defenses against them.

A well optimized blaster whitout cheese could probably snipe the crusaders one by one(or several at a time if they're foolish enough to be grouped), at wich point it basically becomes a war of atriction where the crusaders can win if they have more bodies than the wizard has spells.

Kaiyanwang

2010-05-25, 06:53 AM

at wich point it basically becomes a war of atriction where the crusaders can win if they have more bodies than the wizard has spells.

A là Zapp Brannigan..

Bharg

2010-05-25, 07:01 AM

Are the crusaders carrying a shard that creates an antimagical field?

Oslecamo

2010-05-25, 07:02 AM

Are the crusaders carrying a shard that creates an antimagical field?

Won't save them from orbs or simply rocks falling from the sky.

Kaiyanwang:Well, zerg tactics is a long honored and tested strategy applied trough the ages since the first orc rushes to hordes of psycho machines in the far future.:smalltongue:

Bharg

2010-05-25, 07:06 AM

Won't save them from orbs or simply rocks falling from the sky.

Kaiyanwang:Well, zerg tactics is a long honored and tested strategy applied trough the ages since the first orc rushes to hordes of psycho machines in the far future.:smalltongue:

Rocks of what size?

Lamech

2010-05-25, 07:09 AM

Lamech:
The imp is your familiar. Or an SM-based obedient summon.
You take 10 on the CoP check to avoid int drain.

Furthermore, the assumption is that the spells just work by RAW. If you're going to impose campaign setting limitations on these, then well, of course they aren't so good.
Your contacting the imps diety, or an allied one. It won't be happy; it can easily feed one of its agents false info. If one ticks something off its going to kill you, RAW is not assuming the caimpaign world is static, and all the NPC's will not respond to your actions.
It doesn't matter if the imp is an obidient summon, its the diety giving you false info. (Well, agent of the diety getting false info and giving it to you.)
And the int drain isn't the problem, its the having a diety resenting you. And why would the wizard be "not threatened" if failing means int drain and being fairly defenseless for a week? I wouldn't allow it if I was a DM. (Also isn't taking 10 for skill checks were does it say ablity checks can be the same.

Imp familiar works but it costs a feat. And can be easily killed with a planar binding spell.

Also walls of force and prismatic thingamagijs and the like... IRON HEART SURGE (yeah it will cost a feat but still...). The lyre of building is still a good trick though.

P.S. The wizard can easily be killed with the old mindrape+love's pain*17 on a commoner.

2xMachina

2010-05-25, 07:21 AM

By Cr? 32 ECL10 Crusaders have a 50% chance to win. (CR20)

Does it really work? Not sure, since a Wizard who does necromancy can have a bunch of vampires, shadows, whatever following him.

Greenish

2010-05-25, 07:30 AM

Rocks of what size?5' radius by 40' column. :smallcool:

Learnedguy

2010-05-25, 07:47 AM

Mountain Hammer at the base of the tower.

Repeat as necessary.

Wizard problem SOLVED

Prodan

2010-05-25, 07:49 AM

Certainly. Savage species provides us with an efreeti progression, and it only gains the wish SLA at 9HD.

3.0 material, though.

Imp familiar works but it costs a feat. And can be easily killed with a planar binding spell.
Crusaders cannot cast Planar Binding.

Also walls of force and prismatic thingamagijs and the like... IRON HEART SURGE (yeah it will cost a feat but still...).

Iron Heart Surge does not work that way.

P.S. The wizard can easily be killed with the old mindrape+love's pain*17 on a commoner.
Crusaders do not have the ability to cast either Mindrape or Love's Pain.

Prodan

2010-05-25, 07:56 AM

Also, just for the record:

ABILITY CHECKS

Sometimes a character tries to do something to which no specific skill really applies. In these cases, you make an ability check. An ability check is a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier. Essentially, you’re making an untrained skill check.

In some cases, an action is a straight test of one’s ability with no luck involved. Just as you wouldn’t make a height check to see who is taller, you don’t make a Strength check to see who is stronger.

Taking 10: When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.

Also, when the game uses "threat" or "threatened" it's usually referring to some one standing around with a sword, not deities hating you in a passive aggressive manner.

Kaiyanwang

2010-05-25, 08:03 AM

Iron Heart Surge does not work that way.
Pain.

So.. you cannot either IHS away the Wizard affecting you? Laaaame.

@The savage species progression: that is intended simply for progression of efreeti NCP, is not related directly IMO (regardless the 3.0 thing, is official if not updated elsewere).

Nevertheless, Olsecamo, the SS progression thing is a good suggestion, a good guideline for the topic, IMO. Regardless the thread, I will use it to adjudicate similar problems. Thank you!

Bharg

2010-05-25, 08:10 AM

5' radius by 40' column. :smallcool:

I am not sure if this will be enough to kill a level ten character...

But are no fighting in a small tower with limited space and something like a roof or in an open area?

AstralFire

2010-05-25, 08:12 AM

The Squad of Crusaders will win if the Wizard is not a dirty item-cheesing oversynergistic bastard that makes me hate D&D. If the Wizard is, then he will win.

EOT.

Ingus

2010-05-25, 08:20 AM

Uhm... The best tactic for crusaders is to use siege weaponry.
But the wiz still has the "I win with just minor resource waste" button.

Let's see.
Nondetection (or Mind Blank)*+Improved Invisibility+Teleport in the middle of crusaders.
Now wish to replicate blasphemy. Since all Crusaders are -10 caster level, all are slain, no TS. Not working on all? Try Word of Chaos and so on. (Edit: does not work, since wish allows you till 6th)
Or, maybe, he can use a great amount of Horrid Whilting from range (70 medium damage, 35 if halved, for x times). Then Cloudkill, Incendiary Cloud and area spells.
Or, again, he can Shapechange in something big and bad (I particularily like Mariliths), then buff himself like hell, then again Tenser's Transformation and go to melee.
Or, at the very end, he can polymorph/shapechange in sometihng with a huge Str bonus, then Shrink Item to the tower, to a medium size (provided it is Colossal) and embrace it. Now it is part of your gear and, thank to his huge Str bonus, not out of his maximum load. Then teleport away.

A wizard of 20th can be an infinite trickbag and any number of omogeneous level 10 class is likely to lose. If you can add at least a chieftain of level 15 and some spellcaster and maybe a bard, you should do the trick around 30 Crusaders.
You need more than 40, maybe around 100 and at least with different weapons, to force the wiz out with siege weaponry, then engage a hit and run duel and hoping some 20s rolling on the table.

And mind that Crusaders should be very well equipped, or the number you need could quickly grow to 200 or more**

*Nondetection and Mind Blank are questionable means to avoid being spotted with See Invisibility and/or True Seeing.
**This providing that the Wizard cannot afford to lose his tower to any mean and cannot just teleport it away. Or else, the number could be infinite to no extent.

Prodan

2010-05-25, 08:23 AM

The Squad of Crusaders will win if the Wizard is not a dirty item-cheesing oversynergistic bastard that makes me hate D&D. If the Wizard is, then he will win.

EOT.

Oh my god, it's a fair cop!

AstralFire

2010-05-25, 08:40 AM

Seriously, I just don't see the point of this thread. No offense, Ciccio, since I know it was meant well. It's just... think about it.

For some people, practical optimization of the Wizard means playing yourself to T3, T2 so you don't feel like you're never in danger/a dirty bastard/you spend forever and a day contemplating any actions, you're just a big help.

For some people, practical optimization of the Wizard means making sure you're never in any danger whatsoever, but your actual direct offensive abilities are weak.

Etc etc etc. I'm sure more people can elaborate.

And then on the other hand, we have a group of level 10s. A large group. Are they specifically tailored to kill wizards? Are they specifically tailored to kill -this- wizard? Are they just a bunch of random level 10s who happen to be working together? I mean, let's think about a warmage in an open field here from range.

Meteor Swarm: Does an average damage of 84. Sudden Maximize for 144, or Sudden Empower for 126. Smack up to 4 additional tougher targets for 7/12/10.5 each.

Crusaders: Assuming 14 Con, average HP of 80.

Of course, but then the Crusaders could be smart enough to know not to cluster and to bring things to resist elemental damage. The entire thing is Schrodinger's when you start talking specific tactics, so pretty much what I said in the previous post is all that the thread can currently boil down to.

The Squad of Crusaders will win if the Wizard is not a dirty item-cheesing oversynergistic bastard that makes me hate D&D. If the Wizard is, then he will win.

EOT.

Greenish

2010-05-25, 08:40 AM

I am not sure if this will be enough to kill a level ten character...The 5d4 base damage? No.

The metamagic stacked on it, however, will. Even in antimagic field.

Emmerask

2010-05-25, 09:11 AM

I Surge away magic because its harmful to me hmm atleast in a Faerun setting, after that you beat the **** out of an old commoner :smallwink:
So a "squat" of 1 Crusader :smalltongue:

Eldan

2010-05-25, 09:31 AM

Ah, yes. Surging away the Weave. Worked so well last time :smalltongue:

jseah

2010-05-25, 09:39 AM

Your contacting the imps diety, or an allied one. It won't be happy; it can easily feed one of its agents false info. If one ticks something off its going to kill you, RAW is not assuming the caimpaign world is static, and all the NPC's will not respond to your actions.
It doesn't matter if the imp is an obidient summon, its the diety giving you false info. (Well, agent of the diety getting false info and giving it to you.)
And the int drain isn't the problem, its the having a diety resenting you. And why would the wizard be "not threatened" if failing means int drain and being fairly defenseless for a week? I wouldn't allow it if I was a DM. (Also isn't taking 10 for skill checks were does it say ablity checks can be the same.
If the world works like that, divination spells are basically useless. In which case, some other method would be required.

For example, striking at the leadership behind such a crusader attack. The wizard will actually have to strike ahead of time in order to remove the motivation to attack.

Imp familiar works but it costs a feat. And can be easily killed with a planar binding spell.
You need to know how to specify "his" familiar. Not garuanteed.

Also walls of force and prismatic thingamagijs and the like... IRON HEART SURGE (yeah it will cost a feat but still...). The lyre of building is still a good trick though.
The Lyre of Building is an important trick. It's THE trick that makes defending static structures worthwhile.

P.S. The wizard can easily be killed with the old mindrape+love's pain*17 on a commoner.
Someone argued that Mind Blank blocks it. But it doesn't matter as mindrape-love's pain is usually something that gets banned. Since we're talking PO here? no?

If this gets allowed (and bypasses mind blank), I argue that the CoP should be allowed. They're basically "I win" buttons.

Greenish

2010-05-25, 09:42 AM

For example, striking at the leadership behind such a crusader attack. The wizard will actually have to strike ahead of time in order to remove the motivation to attack.Oh yeah, killing their leaders will surely remove any motivation they might have. :smallamused:

Bharg

2010-05-25, 09:50 AM

Please, don't mind my ignorance, but what metamagic feats?

Would summoning a greater demon be enough? You could even watch it dismembering the attackers from the top of your tower in a camping chair with a cool beer on your lap.

KurtKatze

2010-05-25, 09:59 AM

Assuming the following things:

The wizards tower is invincible for siege weapons. The Tower is extremely well trapped (once you reach levle 20 AND build yourselfe a menecing tower i think you have reached a state of solid paranoia) The traps are not specifically "Anti-Crusader" but they are the best you can get.
Creatures are summoned, if not, the wizzard could very well have powerful undead at 20th level so np.
The crusaders bring rogues with them (As was mentioned lvl 6 or 5). I am not much of an optimizer myselfe but i think you could make a lvl 6 thief find and disarm any trap with the right items etc.
The wiz stays out of the battle as long as possible.

I really dont think the crusaders will make it... every single one has his own WPL, most items also have a hmmm level of availability? So you know, you usually get those gloves of dex +2 with levle 8 thats what i mean. So the magic items they can get are quite limited.

They enter the tower, thieves disarm some traps etc, they enter a room with many undead minions, planar bound minions etc, wizard watches over all of this via scrying or from etheral form. Tells the more intelligent creatures/orders the stupid ones to focus on the rogues. Rogues die. No means of finding disabling traps are left. Crusaders die/ cant proceed to the wizard.

Crusaders (doesnt matter how many) loose. Correct me if i am wrong.

Greenish

2010-05-25, 10:00 AM

Please, don't mind my ignorance, but what metamagic feats?Any you might want, obviously. Fell Draining, Empowered, Maximized, Energy Substituted, Twinned, Repeated, Sanctified, Invisible … … Hail of Stone.

Stones fall, everyone dies.

jseah

2010-05-25, 10:13 AM

Crusaders (doesnt matter how many) lose. Correct me if i am wrong.
More precisely, it goes like this:

They walk up to the front door and find it's invulnerable and unopenable. (Wall of stone as a doorstop + lyre of building)
Wizard snipes from portals and/or windows from above until they go away or die.

The crusaders badly need magical seige weaponry. Preferably in the form of a staff of disintegrate/earthquake.

Lycanthromancer

2010-05-25, 10:24 AM

More precisely, it goes like this:

They walk up to the front door and find it's invulnerable and unopenable. (Wall of stone as a doorstop + lyre of building)
Wizard snipes from portals and/or windows from above until they go away or die.

The crusaders badly need magical seige weaponry. Preferably in the form of a staff of disintegrate/earthquake.Except siege weapons (including spells) don't work. Lyres of building are incredibly easy to use, and cheap to boot. Anyone with a structure of any size and the wherewithal to own one likely will.

jseah

2010-05-25, 10:42 AM

Except siege weapons (including spells) don't work. Lyres of building are incredibly easy to use, and cheap to boot. Anyone with a structure of any size and the wherewithal to own one likely will.
Just reread the Lyre.

Yes, it protects against disintegrate.

Unfortunately, it seems that I remembered it wrongly and that the protection scheme only lasts 30 minutes with no option to extend. And it's 1/day. So you need 48 lyres for 24/7 protection.

Which is 624k gp btw. Leaving the wizard about 96k remaining from his lvl 20 WBL, which is about just enough to buy spells for his book.

Bharg

2010-05-25, 10:49 AM

Lycanthromancer

2010-05-25, 10:59 AM

Just reread the Lyre.

Yes, it protects against disintegrate.

Unfortunately, it seems that I remembered it wrongly and that the protection scheme only lasts 30 minutes with no option to extend. And it's 1/day. So you need 48 lyres for 24/7 protection.

Which is 624k gp btw. Leaving the wizard about 96k remaining from his lvl 20 WBL, which is about just enough to buy spells for his book.Minions that can wish for these things for free (no XP cost) go a long way toward mitigating such costs.

Prodan

2010-05-25, 11:06 AM

Alternatively:

You're a wizard. Beat up/hire a bunch of bards.

jseah

2010-05-25, 11:44 AM

I don't think the wizard gets to break the game like that. The restriction on WBL is mentioned.

That said, does the wizard need anything else but spells and an invulnerable tower (required objective)? Invulnerable is invulnerable and a wizard can surely survive in his own tower till kingdom come without having to get out.

Or better still, he goes away to earn some money and leaves the tower to his minions to take care of (ie. playing the lyre) having asked if it was a good time to leave/return.

Addition:
Is there a way to destroy the tower if it is dimensionally locked? No way in or out save through the front door, which is walled up (ie. not pickable) and invulnerable as well.

Cicciograna

2010-05-25, 12:38 PM

Ok, from all the good answers I got, I can see that it would be really difficult, if not impossible, for a team of n Crusaders to win the day against Paranoid Wizard. And I really expected that.
Besides, every army needs specialists, so let's make a deal.

The Crusaders can call upon reinforcements. They can request for Clerics, Rogues, other Wizards, whatever they please. But the maximum level they can get for their assistants is 10th. Back to the question then, which numbers should this army count, to breach the tower and kill the Wizard (or simply conquest the tower - for the sake of battle aftermath, imagine that conquering the tower means stealing all the Wizard's spellbooks, so he cannot refresh his spells and he's screwed)?

Some backstory.
One of my players became king: apart from his army, he has at his disposal his Royal Guard, composed of an unspecified number of 10th level Crusaders. Evil Wizard menaces a nearby kingdom so, as a sign of cooperation, Player plans to send his Royal Guard to capture the tower and hand it over as a gift to nearby ruler (after some looting, obviously). He clearly stated that he doesn't want to get personally involved in the battle, so at the end of last session he told me that he would ask his military advisors an estimate of the force that could conquest the tower - and from this stems my question.

Greenish

2010-05-25, 12:44 PM

Some backstory.
One of my players became king: apart from his army, he has at his disposal his Royal Guard, composed of an unspecified number of 10th level Crusaders. Evil Wizard menaces a nearby kingdom so, as a sign of cooperation, Player plans to send his Royal Guard to capture the tower and hand it over as a gift to nearby ruler (after some looting, obviously). He clearly stated that he doesn't want to get personally involved in the battle, so at the end of last session he told me that he would ask his military advisors an estimate of the force that could conquest the tower - and from this stems my question.Okay. Just tell him that X is enough, and then let it be enough. X will vary depending on the size of the guard and how rare 10th level NPCs are in the setting.

jseah

2010-05-25, 12:52 PM

If they have wizards and clerics around, even only at 10th level, it will be a lot easier. Mostly because with 5th level spells, you get to call planar helpers which may have more than 5th level spells...
Would still be difficult and bloody. Expect to lose a small army of people at the very least.

Cicciograna

2010-05-25, 12:53 PM

Okay. Just tell him that X is enough, and then let it be enough. X will vary depending on the size of the guard and how rare 10th level NPCs are in the setting.

Basically, that was the plan. But I wanted to give him some numbers for two reasons: first, let him gauge the strength of his army. He knows that the Wizard is powerful: if I tell him that sending 20 Crusaders they succeed, he could overestimate their real capabilities and send them into more daring enterprises; on the other hand, if he sends 200 Crusaders and none of them comes back alive he won't trust his Royal Guard for his protection.

Secondly, I wanted to reward a good act of roleplaying: he could have asked me, as a DM, what number would be enough to overcome the Wizard, but instead he choose to consult his military advisors (which is cool, in my opinion). The best I can do is to reward his RP skills with a correct estimate.

PId6

2010-05-25, 12:53 PM

If it's a real game, and things like Astral Projection, Simulacrum, Gate, Shapechange, Planar Binding, Lyre of Building, etc etc aren't problems, then you can just say pretty much any number you want. I'm sure 30 is probably enough, assuming they're smart and resourceful, and 50 almost certainly would work. The wizard himself can just Teleport out (with whatever spellbooks/valuables he needs in a Bag of Holding), but you'll get the tower without too many problems.

jseah

2010-05-25, 12:57 PM

^
Oh... yeah, it's an NPC wizard.

Right, that makes storming his tower ALOT easier. XD Simply because the lyre of Buildings, planar helpers with 18th casting, raising an army of undead that are worth a 13th level character each, are all player side tricks and would just be mean to use as a DM.

AstralFire

2010-05-25, 01:16 PM

jseah

2010-05-25, 01:20 PM

AstralFire

2010-05-25, 01:21 PM

^Mainly because NPC wizards have a much longer time to be in the universe than player ones.

Played correctly, with a few hundred years to prepare, a wizard is quite unstoppable.

A player won't get the time to do that kind of thing. A few years at most.

No.

It's unsettling because it's okay to pull game-breaking jerk rule moves on your DM, but not okay for the reverse? If you're going to play it one way, it needs to be played both ways.

Chen

2010-05-25, 01:24 PM

In realistic campaign situation, your wizard would probably have both backups to his spellbooks (or at least an emergency set with a minimum of spells he needs) and he'd likely flee before dying to an army attacking his tower.

Even with practically no optimization or rules abuse, just using Gate to call in a Solar or something would decimate level 10 crusaders unless they were specifically made to deal with it. If they are royal guards, one assumes they don't have their full WBL available to buy specialized goods. I mean they must already have their generic weapons/armor/misc items. This is probably the biggest issue they have. How often would the Royal guard need a rod of cancellation or a scroll of MDJ? I suppose if the player provided the army with them it could work and turn things more in their favor. Without some sort of custom items they're going to fail.

Even if the most devious thing the Wizard does is put up a prismatic sphere and blast the hell out of the crusaders he'll probably STILL win unless the king is willing to sacrifice dozens and dozens of Royal guards. Even then when the Wizard starts getting low on spells he teleports away, rests and just comes back and kills more Royal Guards. Since they can't reliably penetrate his defenses he just needs to wear them down since there's a limited number of them.

jseah

2010-05-25, 01:27 PM

I might like to point out that lyre of buildings, a strong undead army and using the planar binding spell is not a gamebreaking move. That's just a wizard using his spells/items right.
It just so happens that using lyre of buildings is a gamebreaker in this (very specific) scenario, but in most campaigns, the players don't get to use it much.

Free wishes, simulacrum abuse... etc. is gamebreaking and shouldn't be used.

But essentially, if a DM has wizards implement schemes that use (intelligent) player tactics for longer than the player could have done, the players simply get crushed all the time.

Now, if the DM implements such tactics only after the NPCs have learnt of them, as if it were a new idea, then yes. Or if you allowed the players to implement them in backstory.
Then it's just ramping up the power level and perfectly fine.

EDIT:
I might like to clarify my previous point then,

anything that significantly increases the power level of the game should be introduced to the game world at the same pace as the player does, not retconned in and used to screw the player over.

Lycanthromancer

2010-05-25, 01:35 PM

Make it a dread necromancer. You have some strong tricks, but nothing an army of crusaders couldn't handle.

Luckily for the king, his information was incorrect.

Togo

2010-05-25, 01:46 PM

If only one side is allowed to be creative, then that side will win. Otherwise, I think we're talking maybe 40-50 to storm the tower to be on the safe side, of which most will die.

Yes 20th level wizards are powerful, but an individual wizard does not contain all the potential of the class. A particular character doing particular things will always have vulnerablilities. How many 10th level people you get through depends on how long it takes to reach a tactic that this particular wizard is vulnerable to.

Lyre of building is a somewhat questionable tactic. The wizard needs to know the tower is being attacked in advance, can't do much while playing, and can't resume playing once he stops. There's no reason why the 10th level hoard can't get divinitations cast for them that are every bit as powerful as the wizard, and considering the set up, probably backed by far more reliable entities.

jseah

2010-05-25, 02:44 PM

If only one side is allowed to be creative, then that side will win. Otherwise, I think we're talking maybe 40-50 to storm the tower to be on the safe side, of which most will die.
I would put the number at least double that. A level 20 wizard and his spells alone could probably kill / render ineffective quite a large bunch of level 10 physical attackers.

But yes, your point is absolutely right. The crusaders need to get creative in order to win. But this is high level combat, you need to try as many totally separate ways in order to win.
It's not a matter of pouring as many things you want into the operation until you steamroll your way in. High levels are a bunch of arbitrary "I win" buttons that you need to think your way around. The first thing to do is to get out the Royal Guards' funds and see what items your kingdom has access to, which determines the range of buttons you have.

I mean, do you really have to storm his tower? That's his strength. He built a tower to defend something in it and it will be good at doing that.
Perhaps with the right... encouragement (a stick or a carrot is up to you), the wizard could be convinced to give you his tower. XD Make a mock storming of it if you really need to.
OP:
You could include a devious advisor who arranges a "successful" operation with minimal bloodshed (but just enough to make it look convincing) to get the tower, while actually arranging a deal with the wizard to get his tower.

^Astralfire:
I went down to the cafe to have a think about it and it occurs to me that perhaps we are talking about different things.
I was referring to how the DM always wins an all-out arms race and that the DM should only match power level, not simply overwhelm the players arbitrarily even if they pull tricks like that.

EDIT: or put it another way, perhaps you consider tricks that change how the game works a gamebreaker and I do not. Which could be the source of our disagreement.

Cicciograna

2010-05-25, 03:27 PM

You could include a devious advisor who arranges a "successful" operation with minimal bloodshed (but just enough to make it look convincing) to get the tower, while actually arranging a deal with the wizard to get his tower.

This is nasty. Really, really nasty. And that's why I'll do it! Kubota style!

Oslecamo

2010-05-25, 04:24 PM

3.0 material, though.

Actualy, since there was never a Savage Species 3.5 update, the book is still completely legal in any 3rd edition game. That's why it's called 3.5 and not 4.0. You can still use stuff from 3.0 that wasn't updated in a 3.5 game no problem. Plus Savage species was done just before 3.5 came out and does include a lot of 3.5 changes already anyway.

olentu

2010-05-25, 04:44 PM

Actualy, since there was never a Savage Species 3.5 update, the book is still completely legal in any 3rd edition game. That's why it's called 3.5 and not 4.0. You can still use stuff from 3.0 that wasn't updated in a 3.5 game no problem. Plus Savage species was done just before 3.5 came out and does include a lot of 3.5 changes already anyway.

However I recall that monster classes are specifically called out as an alternative to the monster advancement system presented in the monster manual and so are not the default rules.

Abd al-Azrad

2010-05-25, 04:50 PM

This is nasty. Really, really nasty. And that's why I'll do it! Kubota style!

Aw, just as I finally put together a battle strategy!

Okay, the crusaders themselves are a decoy. Their involvement in the battle is to be enough of a threat that the wizard cannot rely on static defenses and summoned monsters alone. Assuming that the wizard is barred from things like chain Wish abuse going on the "No wishing for more wishes" rule enforced by an infinite squad of Inevitables, he is in fact restricted by WBL and will only have a finite number of these static defenses, so eventually he has to make an appearance and start picking off your Guard.

Then, roll out the strike team. This group is a specialist hit squad consisting of one 10th-level Conjurer, who has called in a Nightmare and provides the ability to use Mind Blank scrolls. These protect against divination on a subject, so when our BBEG wizard goes to study the forces rallied against him, he won't know about the real threat: one Crusader captain, armed with one of your state's most treasured relics, a captured Githyanki silver sword.

When the wizard makes his appearance, in astral projection (because it's clearly a perfect defense against an army of crusaders) what he is unaware of is the Nightmare-mounted Elite Royal Guard, armed with a tool of incredible destruction, bearing through the Astral Plane to sever his silver cord with one fell (Mountain Hammer-ing) blow.

jiriku

2010-05-25, 05:02 PM

Basically, that was the plan. But I wanted to give him some numbers for two reasons: first, let him gauge the strength of his army. He knows that the Wizard is powerful: if I tell him that sending 20 Crusaders they succeed, he could overestimate their real capabilities and send them into more daring enterprises; on the other hand, if he sends 200 Crusaders and none of them comes back alive he won't trust his Royal Guard for his protection.

Secondly, I wanted to reward a good act of roleplaying: he could have asked me, as a DM, what number would be enough to overcome the Wizard, but instead he choose to consult his military advisors (which is cool, in my opinion). The best I can do is to reward his RP skills with a correct estimate.

With a team of specialists for support, I think you could do it with a bare minimum of about two dozen, but heavy attrition is likely. Military advisors would plan for a more successful campaign, and would probably recommend fifty, plus 30-40 low-level NPCs to stable the horses, cook the meals, pitch the tents, etc. Attrition will still be very heavy if the wizard chooses to make a stand, but honestly if I was that wizard and I woke up one morning to find an army of elites under the banner of local ruler lobbing catapult stones at my bedroom window, I'd probably take discretion as the better part of valor, grab my valuables, and teleport to a safer neighborhood where there's no king sending his elite guard out to make an example of me.

Edit: OP ninja

The Cat Goddess

2010-05-25, 06:28 PM

Aw, just as I finally put together a battle strategy!

Okay, the crusaders themselves are a decoy. Their involvement in the battle is to be enough of a threat that the wizard cannot rely on static defenses and summoned monsters alone. Assuming that the wizard is barred from things like chain Wish abuse going on the "No wishing for more wishes" rule enforced by an infinite squad of Inevitables, he is in fact restricted by WBL and will only have a finite number of these static defenses, so eventually he has to make an appearance and start picking off your Guard.

Then, roll out the strike team. This group is a specialist hit squad consisting of one 10th-level Conjurer, who has called in a Nightmare and provides the ability to use Mind Blank scrolls. These protect against divination on a subject, so when our BBEG wizard goes to study the forces rallied against him, he won't know about the real threat: one Crusader captain, armed with one of your state's most treasured relics, a captured Githyanki silver sword.

When the wizard makes his appearance, in astral projection (because it's clearly a perfect defense against an army of crusaders) what he is unaware of is the Nightmare-mounted Elite Royal Guard, armed with a tool of incredible destruction, bearing through the Astral Plane to sever his silver cord with one fell (Mountain Hammer-ing) blow.

Great plan... right until the end.

Can't use Mountain Hammer unless you're in contact with the Ground.

Foehammer will work, and only does 2d6 less damage. :smallwink:

The Glyphstone

2010-05-25, 06:48 PM

With a team of specialists for support, I think you could do it with a bare minimum of about two dozen, but heavy attrition is likely. Military advisors would plan for a more successful campaign, and would probably recommend fifty, plus 30-40 low-level NPCs to stable the horses, cook the meals, pitch the tents, etc. Attrition will still be very heavy if the wizard chooses to make a stand, but honestly if I was that wizard and I woke up one morning to find an army of elites under the banner of local ruler lobbing catapult stones at my bedroom window, I'd probably take discretion as the better part of valor, grab my valuables, and teleport to a safer neighborhood where there's no king sending his elite guard out to make an example of me.

Edit: OP ninja

For that matter, it's become a completely different fight. This was supposed to be 'X number of Crusaders vs. Wizard' not 'The entire collective resources of an entire kingdom's army...plus some crusaders, vs. Wizard'. If the Crusaders need outside help to run their siege engines or whatever, then X is not a high enough number.

Prodan

2010-05-25, 07:48 PM

Well, I guess the simulacrum cloning trick works, now how about that taking 10 on CoP?

Abd al-Azrad

2010-05-25, 08:30 PM

Great plan... right until the end.

Can't use Mountain Hammer unless you're in contact with the Ground.

Foehammer will work, and only does 2d6 less damage. :smallwink:

I will destroy you. Let that be known.

@Glyphstone: You are correct. I believe the Forum has made a very specific point: the 20th-level wizard has the potential to gain unlimited resources. Any class that cannot field unlimited resources will thus be rather handicapped when it comes to defeating a wizard. So, yes. X is not a high enough number.

But as the OP says, the scope of this conversation has changed from theoretical optimization battles, to a kingdom trying to plan an efficient operation using its resources to defeat a specific wizard - one who, due to DM intervention, cannot gain unlimited resources.

The Glyphstone

2010-05-25, 08:40 PM

@Glyphstone: You are correct. I believe the Forum has made a very specific point: the 20th-level wizard has the potential to gain unlimited resources. Any class that cannot field unlimited resources will thus be rather handicapped when it comes to defeating a wizard. So, yes. X is not a high enough number.

But as the OP says, the scope of this conversation has changed from theoretical optimization battles, to a kingdom trying to plan an efficient operation using its resources to defeat a specific wizard - one who, due to DM intervention, cannot gain unlimited resources.

That wasn't even really what I was saying, though you are correct. I was just pointing out that if the X crusaders need commoners to run their siege engines, then instead of commoners, just get more Crusaders to run them instead.

Abd al-Azrad

2010-05-25, 08:52 PM

That wasn't even really what I was saying, though you are correct. I was just pointing out that if the X crusaders need commoners to run their siege engines, then instead of commoners, just get more Crusaders to run them instead.

My mistake. I thought you were making a statement about the power of wizards. What you did say was way funnier than I expected. My hat is off to you.

Lamech

2010-05-26, 12:02 AM

I will destroy you. Let that be known.

@Glyphstone: You are correct. I believe the Forum has made a very specific point: the 20th-level wizard has the potential to gain unlimited resources. Any class that cannot field unlimited resources will thus be rather handicapped when it comes to defeating a wizard. So, yes. X is not a high enough number.

But as the OP says, the scope of this conversation has changed from theoretical optimization battles, to a kingdom trying to plan an efficient operation using its resources to defeat a specific wizard - one who, due to DM intervention, cannot gain unlimited resources.

By RAW any class can get limitless resources because of scrolls, leadership ect. It would be very possible for a level ten crusader to get a arbitrarly powerful wizard working for him with rules abuse. Unless we have a closer description of the what is allowed and not we don't really have anyway of answering the question.