PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 Fixing the Half-Dragon



Alvrick
2010-05-24, 07:58 PM
As dungeons and dragons players, we love dragons, either as hunting material or pure awesome. They, in fact, make up half the name of the game, and it is this distilled awesome that made people go "Hey, I want to be more like a dragon."

Thus, half-dragons were born. Screwed up, insecure, able to tear your spine out with a good bit of ease if built right, and only able to exist due to a quirk of dragon physiology combined with their ability to change shape. Making one of these guys an adventurer essentially means: Adventurer = Really Cool Character. Dragon = Awesome Monster. Draconic Adventurer = Really Awesome Monster Character

But taking a look at the half-dragon template in the monster manual, it's something that is hated more than loved. The +3 LA is just too much of a hurdle for the somewhat limited abilities the half-dragon template grants, What with the weak 1/day breath weapon, and creatures under large size (most players) don't even gain wings from it.

So I ask, how could we make it a viable option while still keeping the flavor intact?

nedz
2010-05-24, 08:05 PM
You could do something like this
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
I'm thinking of the half fey here where "wings" are delayed to racial level 2.
This would allow the DM to pace when (presumably at racial level 3) yoou get your wings.

PId6
2010-05-24, 08:06 PM
Use the Dragonborn template (RotD). Refluff as needed. Done.

Alvrick
2010-05-24, 08:08 PM
You could do something like this
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
I'm thinking of the half fey here where "wings" are delayed to racial level 2.
This would allow the DM to pace when (presumably at racial level 3) yoou get your wings.

unfortunately, this doesn't solve the problem - Racial progression only presents a new way of getting the old abilities. it doesn't enhance anything, really, or fix the problems

krossbow
2010-05-24, 08:09 PM
Reduce the La down to +1, and give gradual bonuses as they gain class levels.

Seffbasilisk
2010-05-24, 08:11 PM
Give the option of it boosting the base creature up to large size, and giving it the wings.

Tah dah!

JGoldenberg
2010-05-24, 08:18 PM
The problem is all those fixes people are giving still make the class really weaksauce. The Breath Weapon isn't even a threat beyond level 4 for example.

Runestar
2010-05-24, 08:26 PM
Let the breath weapon be at-will with 1d4 rounds delay, and have the damage slowly scale, as 6d8 is still fairly lethal at lower lvs (at least according to wotc).

The part about improving racial HD should not count towards LA, since that benefits npcs more.

I think this makes for a balanced LA+2, paving the way for you to start buying it off at ECL8.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-24, 09:32 PM
1) Keep all current bonuses for Half-Dragon.
2) Give all three "aspect" bonuses from the Dragonborn Template.
3) Push the LA requirements to levels 3, 6 & 12.

Reducing the LA to 1 makes it totally imbalanced compared to every other LA 1 template/monster.

Reducing it to LA 2 and requiring a level (or two) of Dragon would be balanced, I believe... and racial levels of Dragon are actually pretty decent (d12 HD, all good saves, good BAB).

PId6
2010-05-24, 09:35 PM
Reducing the LA to 1 makes it totally imbalanced compared to every other LA 1 template/monster.
Half-Minotaur begs to differ. :smalltongue:

IonDragon
2010-05-24, 09:44 PM
Use the bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) form UA, for a base and make one for Half-Dragon.

Heliomance
2010-05-24, 09:51 PM
There's a feat in (IIRC) Savage Species that takes your breath weapon to every 1d4 rounds

Exterminatus
2010-05-24, 09:58 PM
If your DM doesn't mind homebrew than maybe this Half-Dragon Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8159828&postcount=257). Breath weapon that scales (and is usable every 1d4 rounds for one class level), Fort and Will as good saves, extra attacks, Full BaB, and other goodies. It's only two class levels long.

taltamir
2010-05-24, 10:02 PM
the whole purpose of LA is to "balance" things between a party... how do you make the plain old human (played by a human) comparable to the awesome half-dragon (also played by a human)? I know, lets give the human extra levels! and thus the LA was born...

the problem with LA is the same with CR... they vary widely based on exact party composition, classes chosen, cheese level, player skill, etc.

I don't think you can have a "one size fit all" solution to LA as long as people play with different classes (not all classes are the same), different cheese levels, and different skill level (skill of the player).
You could make it more accurate for the "average" player and group though. But really, advanced groups should be able to provide their own balance...

aka, ok, you can be half dragon, you a half minotaur, but then my human gets to use the following cheesy tactic

All that being said, LA does have a few issues as a mechanic. at very early levels you have very little HP, at later levels you are levels behind for a few (now obsolete) abilities...
so there are always changes that can be done.

Lets see... how about replacing the racial bonuses and the LA with racial class levels distributed across various levels (aka, on level 5, 10, and 15 you need to take a racial class level with a preset selection of abilities).
So, a level 1 half dragon is almost the same as a human or elf. who later gains abilities via said levels...
Said racial levels would be somewhat customized to the class they are playing... aka, "half dragon wizard" or "half dragon fighter"... so that they are not being crippled by said levels. but that gets too customy, each DM needs to custom design it for each player or it will end up sucking or wildly unbalanced. This is why Orcs in WOW are just "humans with green skin"

EDIT: Actually, you could provide 2 or 3 presets only... a "martial" preset, a "gish" preset, and a "caster" preset... let the player chose any of the above. (and if, for some reason, you want to combine the martial half-dragon preset with a caster class, go for it... you can be wizard 4/martial half-dragon 1 if you so desire).
mmm, this is a problem... how do you design a "caster" type racial class for a half-dragon that isn't overpowered and doesn't mess up your caster progression? the best I can think about is to treat it as a custom dragon themed PrC... with the same penalties (aka, does not advance familiar progression and undead turning progression)... yea it would be more powerful than wizard 20... but as long as it is balanced with other PrCs than the character does not gain extra powers.

Alvrick
2010-05-24, 10:36 PM
EDIT: Actually, you could provide 2 or 3 presets only... a "martial" preset, a "gish" preset, and a "caster" preset... let the player chose any of the above. (and if, for some reason, you want to combine the martial half-dragon preset with a caster class, go for it... you can be wizard 4/martial half-dragon 1 if you so desire).
mmm, this is a problem... how do you design a "caster" type racial class for a half-dragon that isn't overpowered and doesn't mess up your caster progression? the best I can think about is to treat it as a custom dragon themed PrC... with the same penalties (aka, does not advance familiar progression and undead turning progression)... yea it would be more powerful than wizard 20... but as long as it is balanced with other PrCs than the character does not gain extra powers.

This is probably the most realistic and comprehensive fix. it also sounds a great deal like either a prestige class or bloodlines

Crafty Cultist
2010-05-24, 11:57 PM
Check my signature for the link to the thread for monsters without level adjustment. The half-dragon class in there is a two level class with all the signature half-dragon abilities without the massive ability bonuses

Tytalus
2010-05-25, 03:30 AM
The problem with the breath weapon is not so much that it's only usable 1/day (there are ways to fix that already, such as the RotD feat mentioned above), it's that the DC is laughably low when you advance, as it doesn't scale with your level/HD.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-25, 03:37 AM
Half-Minotaur begs to differ. :smalltongue:

Half-Minotaur is obviously broken. See Half-Ogre in Races of Destiny.


The problem with the breath weapon is not so much that it's only usable 1/day (there are ways to fix that already, such as the RotD feat mentioned above), it's that the DC is laughably low when you advance, as it doesn't scale with your level/HD.

Which is why you use the Dragon Breath ability of the Dragonborn instead, but keep the energy type according to your Dragon type.

Prime32
2010-05-25, 03:42 AM
There's a lot of weird stuff in the half-dragon template, like how it increases your HD by one size (why not just boost Con?) and how you seem to gain the augmented subtype without really gaining it.

Here's my cleanup. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7875)

JaronK
2010-05-25, 03:44 AM
The Draconic Template is pretty good, you could use that instead. +2 Str, Int, and Cha (IIRC) plus some claw attacks and vision mods. That or Dragonborn would get the job done quite nicely. Consider also adding in a draconic Bloodline from UA, which provides a number of useful benefits.

JaronK

JaronK
2010-05-25, 03:51 AM
Half-Minotaur is obviously broken. See Half-Ogre in Races of Destiny.

Or Half Ogre is too weak. Half Minotaur is not "broken" by any stretch, but it can certainly be overpowered for some games. Still, a Half Minotaur Fighter 10 is not stronger than a well played Human Wizard 11.

JaronK

Lev
2010-05-25, 03:52 AM
If you want to have a self gratifying experience I highly suggest playing a badass character, good way to stimulate brain chemicals.

Personally though, I don't feel awesome characters are really inspiring to the group, or at least if they are it's not because they overpower their opponents or have some exotic unworldlyness to them, I'm more impressed when a player decides to play a player with his first level in commoner and STILL goes up against the most daring adventures, when your character is powerful or able to rip it's own CR equivalent in two it just feels like small game, kinda like you're fighting 10 year olds or something similar.
But if all the people in your group decide to all take half-badass as a race and powerbuild their characters I guess the DM can start to double the CR or something to make it worthwhile.
[/rant]

JaronK
2010-05-25, 03:54 AM
Ouch, double the CR for being a half dragon? That's fine in the early levels, but a Half Dragon Fighter 10 isn't exactly going to be in good position to deal with CR 24s.

JaronK

Prime32
2010-05-25, 05:12 AM
But if all the people in your group decide to all take half-badass as a race and powerbuild their characters I guess the DM can start to double the CR or something to make it worthwhile.
[/rant]Except that Half-dragon makes you weaker than if you'd used that LA for three extra class levels.

And increasing the CR by 2 is considered to be double the challenge. A CR more than 8 higher than the party level is considered physically impossible to defeat, to the point where even if you win you don't get any XP for it.


If you want to have a self gratifying experience I highly suggest playing a badass character, good way to stimulate brain chemicals.

Personally though, I don't feel awesome characters are really inspiring to the group, or at least if they are it's not because they overpower their opponents or have some exotic unworldlyness to them, I'm more impressed when a player decides to play a player with his first level in commoner and STILL goes up against the most daring adventures, when your character is powerful or able to rip it's own CR equivalent in two it just feels like small game, kinda like you're fighting 10 year olds or something similar.Is it impressive when the commoner PC goes up against them and dies immediately? If the PCs are built well and use clever tactics then you just need to build the monsters well and have them use clever tactics.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-25, 05:24 AM
Allow players to buy off their level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), then use the half-dragon savage progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a). Go Half-Dragon 1/ (Class) 3, then pay 3,000 xp to buy off that point of level adjustment. Take the second level of the Half-Dragon template class next and then three more class levels, so you'd be (Class) 3/ Half-Dragon 2nd/ (Class) 3, and pay 6,000 xp to buy off that point of level adjustment. Gain the third level of the template class and three more class levels, so you'd be (Class) 6/ Half-Dragon 3rd/ (Class) 3, and spend 9,000 xp to buy off that one. You'll probably catch up to the rest of the party between buying off each one, so you'll probably never be more than one level behind everyone else, and you'll eventually catch up to them without any level adjustment at all.

Races of the Dragon has the feat Dragon Breath (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragon_Breath), which changes your 1/day half-dragon breath weapon to usable every 1d4 rounds.

Jair Barik
2010-05-25, 05:30 AM
Then just splice in some meta breath feats and laugh uncontrollably. Sure they can save for half damage but you can still have some fun.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-25, 05:36 AM
The spell Blinding Breath is probably one of the strongest save-or-suck spells in the game. Reflex save or be permanently blinded, and you can even get it via Suel Arcanamach with a more melee focused build.

Oslecamo
2010-05-25, 06:27 AM
Altough two people already pointed it out shameless self-promotion to my work:



HD: d12
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+2|+0 | + 2|Draconic blood, Draconic body, Breath Weapon
2|+ 2|+3|+0 | + 3| Draconic Heritage, +1 Str, +1 Cha
[/table]

Skills: 2 + Intelligence modifier per level, Class skills are Concentration, climb, jump, spot, listen, apraise, intimidate, Knowledge(any), spellcraft.

Proefeciencies: His own natural weapons.

Features:
Draconic blood:Unlike other monster classes, the Half Dragon doesn't lose his racial ability modifiers, but he does gain dragon traits. Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision, plus immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and one energy immunity of it's choice.

Draconic body:The half-dragon's body presents several dragon features, like powerfull long teeths and claws and tick scales covering it's skin.

The half-dragon gains two claw attacks dealing 1d4+Str damage each and a bite attack dealing 1d6+1/2 Str damage. Those are the values for a medium sized half-dragon, and should be adjusted to half-dragons of other size by the standard die size changes.

In adition, the half-dragon gains a bonus to nat armor equal to it's Con modifier.

Breath Weapon:Either a cone of 30 foot or a line of 60 foot dealing 1d6 damage/HD with DC ref of 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier for half every 1d4 turns. The damage type is the same as the player immunity. Cone increases by 5 foot and line by 10 foot with each extra HD the player takes from here.

The energy and shape of the breath must be chosen at 1st level and then cannot be changed.

Draconic heritage:The half-dragon keeps revealing draconic traits as it learns and grows.

First, Half dragon levels stack with levels of any caster class the half-dragon takes for purposes of spells per day, caster level and spells known. So for example a half-dragon 2 who takes a level of sorceror would count as having 3 levels of sorceror(2+1) and gain the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gains when leveling from level 2 to 3, but not the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gets from level 1 to 2, He would get the familiar ability, but half-dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

At 4HD the half dragon grows wings wich allow him to fly at double his land speed with average maneuverability


Ability increase:the half dragon gains +1 cha and +1 Str at level 2.



As you can see no pesky LA or LA buyoff. You don't get the massive ability bonus, but you really don't need it and you do get full BAB, two HDs and two good saves. Your nat armor and breath weapon scale with level and heck it actualy makes a half-dragon/sorceror or even half-dragon/fullcaster viable!

Runestar
2010-05-25, 07:08 AM
Or Half Ogre is too weak. Half Minotaur is not "broken" by any stretch, but it can certainly be overpowered for some games. Still, a Half Minotaur Fighter 10 is not stronger than a well played Human Wizard 11.

JaronK

+12str for LA+1 (amongst other bonuses) is definitely too strong in my book. :smallwink:

Gnaeus
2010-05-25, 09:39 AM
You could take the PF Dragon Disciple (which is essentially the same as the 3.5 Dragon Disciple, with the silly bonus spells replaced with 7/10 Sorc casting) and call it "Half-Dragon racial progression class".

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-25, 12:34 PM
Or Half Ogre is too weak. Half Minotaur is not "broken" by any stretch, but it can certainly be overpowered for some games. Still, a Half Minotaur Fighter 10 is not stronger than a well played Human Wizard 11.

JaronK


+12str for LA+1 (amongst other bonuses) is definitely too strong in my book. :smallwink:

Exactly.

Do this comparison, rather than throwing the broken Wizard into the mix.

Half-Dragon Fighter 5.
Half-Ogre Fighter 6.
Half-Minotaur Fighter 7.
Human Fighter 8.

Or, if you want "better balance"...

Half-Dragon Warblade 5.
Half-Ogre Warblade 6.
Half-Minotaur Warblade 7.
Human Warblade 8.

Which one clearly wins out, assuming the same base stats before racial modifiers?

Remember, that Half-Ogre's got Reach & Large Weapons (but so does the Half-Minotaur, right?).

Of course, the Half-Ogre & Half-Minotaur from here (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf) are both LA+1, yet the Half-Ogre is not nearly as good.

Flickerdart
2010-05-25, 12:47 PM
There is a feat in the Draconomicon that allows a Half-Dragon of 6HD or more (I think) to use his breath every 1d4 rounds.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:15 PM
I love Half-Dragon as it is. In fact, i once Played:

Silverbrow Human Sorcerer 2/Human Paragon 3/Shadow Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Platinum Knight 3

and I was VERY MUCH a threat past 4th level...

Greenish
2010-05-25, 01:17 PM
I love Half-Dragon as it is. In fact, i once Played:

Silverbrow Human Sorcerer 2/Human Paragon 3/Shadow Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Platinum Knight 3

and I was VERY MUCH a threat past 4th level...Sure is awesome to have 8 hitpoints at ECL 4.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:21 PM
Sure is awesome to have 8 hitpoints at ECL 4.

I actually went through Dragon Disciple...

Greenish
2010-05-25, 01:31 PM
I actually went through Dragon Disciple...That build looks exceedingly weak. Sorcerer casting as level 4 (CL 7, yay), BAB 16 at ECL 21. (I don't know Platinum Knight, so I assumed it's full BAB no casting.)

It's also illegal, you can't take two racial paragons (with the exception of half-elfs and half-orcs, who get it as a class feature).

WeLoveFireballs
2010-05-25, 01:33 PM
I once made a quarter orc/quarter human/half dragon for a 12th level game. Permenancy, Enlage person small fortune in strength increasing Items and boom str 40 for 2 attacks with huge greatsword didn't even need to bother with the breath weapon and did godlike damage.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:36 PM
That build looks exceedingly weak. Sorcerer casting as level 4 (CL 7, yay), BAB 16 at ECL 21. (I don't know Platinum Knight, so I assumed it's full BAB no casting.)

It's also illegal, you can't take two racial paragons (with the exception of half-elfs and half-orcs, who get it as a class feature).

I was, in the end, a Loredrake Half-Shadow Dragon Sorcerer with a nice BAB, 20th level casting, and a devistating Breath Weapon

He was a human who became a Half-Dragon, thus its 100% legal.

Gnaeus
2010-05-25, 01:36 PM
I once made a quarter orc/quarter human/half dragon for a 12th level game. Permenancy, Enlage person small fortune in strength increasing Items and boom str 40 for 2 attacks with huge greatsword didn't even need to bother with the breath weapon and did godlike damage.

Then you were in error. Half-Dragon changes your type to Dragon. Enlarge Person doesn't work on Dragons.


I was, in the end, a Loredrake Half-Shadow Dragon Sorcerer with a nice BAB, 20th level casting, and a devistating Breath Weapon

He was a human who became a Half-Dragon, thus its 100% legal.

Leaving aside the extreme leniency of a DM who allows Loredrake for non true dragons, and Greenish's point about multiple paragon classes, AND the extreme lameness of your build between levels 3 and 15 (which is the first moment you could possibly qualify for loredrake), how does that get you to 20th level casting? Even using the PF Dragon Disciple fix with loredrake doesn't look like it comes close.

Greenish
2010-05-25, 02:41 PM
I was, in the end, a Loredrake Half-Shadow Dragon Sorcerer with a nice BAB, 20th level casting, and a devistating Breath Weapon

He was a human who became a Half-Dragon, thus its 100% legal.Loredrake is not legal (half-dragons are not true dragons). Two racial paragons aren't legal even if your type changes in between.

As Gnaeus points, you wouldn't be anywhere near 20th level casting without heavy houseruling. Your BAB and casting are weak (you're supposed to be epic for fig's sake!). Your breath weapon is once a day unless you burned a feat for it.