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Hadrian_Emrys
2010-05-25, 01:27 AM
Many moons ago, I asked the playground what they thought would happen to a were-x that acquired the half-dragon template. This innocent question lead to many heated views with no real conclusion. While the sorry state of that unsettled debate may still weigh on my mind, I fear that yet another lycanthropy fueled series of questions have also come to the fore as I idle my days away in recreational character creation:

1: Do were-snakes gain claw attacks in hybrid form? I fear so, but I cannot explain why beyond the influence of a wizard.

2: If the answer to 1 is yes... -would an armless person afflicted with the bite of a were-snake gain claw attacks, and thus arms, in hybrid form? That accursed wizard really must have used potent divination spells to see the agony he was to inflict upon my mind.

3: If the answer to 2 is yes... -would the arms remain when the tortured soul returned to humanoid form? It would appear not, but this would mean that, at some point, the process of becoming a snake would grant arms to a person. Something about the concept makes my brain cringe.

Edit: I almost forgot, the matter of claw/arm growth got me to thinking about quick draw and two weapon fighting. According to The Sage (I know, bear with me) switching a weapon to one's other hand was akin to drawing the weapon. Would this mean that two weapon fighting with a single light weapon is a viable option if one took Quick Draw to turn the move action into a free one?

Ranos
2010-05-25, 01:35 AM
1. By RAW, yep.
2. He gains claw attacks, not arms. How he does it is left to your twisted imagination.
3. Nope

What's the probleme with lycanthropes and half-dragons ?

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-05-25, 01:56 AM
Ranos:

1. That's how I read it.
2. Clawed feet may not make less sense than clawed arms, but they still make less than a total lack!
3. With your take on 2, I can see how this question becomes a non-issue.

As for the half-dragon taint... The question is whether or not the two alternate forms gain the template's traits. Since the cursed person adds the animal's racial hit die to their own (and keeps their original creature type/subtypes) in all three forms, it seems reasonable enough to conclude that the creature would maintain the template's traits regardless of which form they were in.

Coidzor
2010-05-25, 02:22 AM
It's the Level Adjustment, right? That's the true curse?

Eldan
2010-05-25, 02:28 AM
Well, think about it like this:

Look any B-movie, especially slightly older ones, with Snake-men. Or read books where they occur.

THey always have clawed arms.

Hyozo
2010-05-25, 02:30 AM
Level adjustment is a problem for spellcasters Coid, and most lyycanthropes aren't going to be able to do spellcasting due to what a friend of mine who played a lycanthrope in one of my campaigns determined was the true curse of lycanthropy: Not being able to speak and use your cool lycanthrope abilities at the same time.

pasko77
2010-05-25, 02:32 AM
The point is, if the original form has no arms?
If a spell "makes your arms stronger", yet you have no arms, the spell is useless.
IMHO this is a point not covered by raw.
I understand that by raw you gain "attacks" and not arms, but as a DM I think I wouldn't give them.
Sure you can "attach" the claws to the feet, but it's not RAI, IMHO.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-25, 02:33 AM
Okay, I would assume that the gaining of the Half-Dragon template would be done via the Dragon Disciple PrC or some magic effect.

If PrC, the effects would apply in all forms.

If by magic effect, he's probably no longer a lycanthrope because he's been physically changed.

Bharg
2010-05-25, 02:42 AM
1: Do were-snakes gain claw attacks in hybrid form? I fear so, but I cannot explain why beyond the influence of a wizard.

I would suspect it to look somehow like a Yuan-Ti or a 'generic' Lizardman.


2: If the answer to 1 is yes... -would an armless person afflicted with the bite of a were-snake gain claw attacks, and thus arms, in hybrid form? That accursed wizard really must have used potent divination spells to see the agony he was to inflict upon my mind.

No.


3: If the answer to 2 is yes... -would the arms remain when the tortured soul returned to humanoid form? It would appear not, but this would mean that, at some point, the process of becoming a snake would grant arms to a person. Something about the concept makes my brain cringe.

No.


Edit: I almost forgot, the matter of claw/arm growth got me to thinking about quick draw and two weapon fighting. According to The Sage (I know, bear with me) switching a weapon to one's other hand was akin to drawing the weapon. Would this mean that two weapon fighting with a single light weapon is a viable option if one took Quick Draw to turn the move action into a free one?

The idea is just as weird.

Wouldn't a half-dragon be immune to deseases like lycantrophy anyway?

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-05-25, 02:44 AM
Heck, by RAW, does not even a limbless person gain claw attacks in hybrid form? I don't even know where to begin the rant about how mind numbing it is to try and imagine.

pasko77: So that is another vote for no arms in addition to a vote for no claws?

The Cat Goddess: So... what you're suggesting is that one non-lethal way to cure lycanthropy is to magically change the cursed individual into a half-dragon? What makes the PrC method of transformation so special?

Bharg: By RAW, would a change in creature type retroactively undo the curse? -or is that yet another question on the table?

Eldan
2010-05-25, 02:46 AM
Refluff as necessary, I'd say. Say that he makes them with his teeth, problem solved. Then beat the player with a rulebook if he finds an item which only works on bites.

pasko77
2010-05-25, 03:00 AM
pasko77: So that is another vote for no arms in addition to a vote for no claws?



Well, yes. Tell them to find themselves a cleric that can cast regeneration :smalltongue:

Prime32
2010-05-25, 03:19 AM
By RAW, would a change in creature type retroactively undo the curse? -or is that yet another question on the table?No. You don't lose the benefits of a template if your type changes. By that logic a titanic toad shrinks to the size of a normal toad if you animate its corpse.

A half-dragon could not become an afflicted lycanthrope, but a lycanthrope could become a half-dragon. In which case its animal HD would increase in size. You're better off doing it with Dragonwrought kobold to convert them to Dragon HD.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-25, 03:28 AM
Heck, by RAW, does not even a limbless person gain claw attacks in hybrid form? I don't even know where to begin the rant about how mind numbing it is to try and imagine.

pasko77: So that is another vote for no arms in addition to a vote for no claws?

The Cat Goddess: So... what you're suggesting is that one non-lethal way to cure lycanthropy is to magically change the cursed individual into a half-dragon? What makes the PrC method of transformation so special?

Bharg: By RAW, would a change in creature type retroactively undo the curse? -or is that yet another question on the table?

I would say that a person with no arms who becomes a Lycanthrope still doesn't have arms in alternate forms.

I don't understand why a Were-Snake would have Claws, much less arms in Hybrid form... or legs, for that matter. I guess it's just a matter of how snake-like the person becomes.

As for Half-Dragon... being changed by a spell (like Polymorph Any Object) changes your type and everything. I suppose that a Wish could make your Were-Tiger a Half-Dragon... but not much less than that.

As for the PrC... because it's a gradual change, you're stacking the template. Besides, the PrC allows creature types that could not ordinarily be a Half-Dragon become one... like a Vampire, for example. :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-05-25, 03:44 AM
It's the Level Adjustment, right? That's the true curse?From the title I was certain that it would be the RHD.

Bharg
2010-05-25, 04:04 AM
No. You don't lose the benefits of a template if your type changes. By that logic a titanic toad shrinks to the size of a normal toad if you animate its corpse.

A half-dragon could not become an afflicted lycanthrope, but a lycanthrope could become a half-dragon. In which case its animal HD would increase in size. You're better off doing it with Dragonwrought kobold to convert them to Dragon HD.

Lycantrophy is a disease if I am not mistaken. So if half dragons would be immune to the disease in the scenario one could be healed by turning into a halfdragon.

Stacking templates is an aweful thing to do - though a titanic zombie toad would be awesome.

The real curse by the way is turning into the were animal every full moon and slaying the weak and the innocent...

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-05-25, 04:08 AM
Eldan: Something about two primary claw attacks coming out of a were-snake's mouth before a secondary bite attack strikes me as even more bizarre! :smalleek:

pasko77: So... make a house rule to fill in for the hole in RAW?

Prime32: That's how I thought the templates would stack. However, I am confused about how a Kobold can be born a Dragonwrought lycanthrope when the curse only affects humanoids.

The Cat Goddess: Vote number 3 against arms, and another victim of the claw attack mental image. :smalltongue:

Greenish: *shrug* HD/+LA/wonky rulings... the template is trouble.

Greenish
2010-05-25, 04:11 AM
The real curse by the way is turning into the were animal every full moon and slaying helping the weak and the innocent...Werebears rawr!

Bharg
2010-05-25, 04:12 AM
Werebears rawr!

It is humiliating if you are a chaotic evil character.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-05-25, 04:32 AM
The idea is just as weird.

Wouldn't a half-dragon be immune to deseases like lycantrophy anyway?

1. I never said it thematically made sense. I'm just curious how the playground feels about that little potential hiccup in the reading. XD Don't blame me, blame awkward errata.

2. Yes, but as Prime32 states, the templates stack just fine in the proper order.

Greenish
2010-05-25, 04:38 AM
It is humiliating if you are a chaotic evil character.Well, you won't be for long. You'll fail the check sooner or later.

Prime32
2010-05-25, 04:53 AM
Lycantrophy is a disease if I am not mistaken. So if half dragons would be immune to the disease in the scenario one could be healed by turning into a halfdragon.Lycanthropy isn't as simple as a disease. It's only a disease until it manifests, then it's treated like a curse.


Prime32: That's how I thought the templates would stack. However, I am confused about how a Kobold can be born a Dragonwrought lycanthrope when the curse only affects humanoidsYou choose your race before you choose your feats. The kobold's parents were natural lycanthropes, and the Dragonwrought gene just happened to manifest in their offspring.

EDIT: I have a solution for "armless were-snake gains claws in hybrid form". He grows snakes for arms.

Bharg
2010-05-25, 05:49 AM
Well, you won't be for long. You'll fail the check sooner or later.
''Oh, no'', *violently clenching chest falling to his knees ''I'm turning into a good person!''
Nice way of rehabilitation, but still a terrible fate... If he was an assassin or a paladin of destruction he would surely lose his job (and get killed) or fall from grace.


Lycanthropy isn't as simple as a disease. It's only a disease until it manifests, then it's treated like a curse.

You choose your race before you choose your feats. The kobold's parents were natural lycanthropes, and the Dragonwrought gene just happened to manifest in their offspring.

EDIT: I have a solution for "armless were-snake gains claws in hybrid form". He grows snakes for arms.

I guess, you are right about the lycantrophy, but half-dragon were-penguins are still stupid. :smallamused:

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-25, 08:10 AM
Funny, I thought the real curse of lycanthropy was trying to figure out the supposed alignment of nonstandard animals. :smallwink::smallamused:

Greenish
2010-05-25, 08:50 AM
Funny, I thought the real curse of lycanthropy was trying to figure out the supposed alignment of nonstandard animals. :smallwink::smallamused:Sometimes you just need a DM with a PhD in Pullitoutofmybuttology.

Theodoxus
2010-05-25, 08:51 AM
''Oh, no'', *violently clenching chest falling to his knees ''I'm turning into a good person!''
Nice way of rehabilitation, but still a terrible fate... If he was an assassin or a paladin of destruction he would surely lose his job (and get killed) or fall from grace.:

Wouldn't that be 'Rise to Grace'?

Deme
2010-05-25, 10:03 AM
''Oh, no'', *violently clenching chest falling to his knees ''I'm turning into a good person!''
Nice way of rehabilitation, but still a terrible fate... If he was an assassin or a paladin of destruction he would surely lose his job (and get killed) or fall from grace.

...Now I'm imagining a comic with this premise.
Lycanthrope: Doctor, you've got to help me! Since around last month...things have been...odd. I'm no longer enjoying the idea that the world is fundementally doomed, so we may as well just destroy everything and get it over with. A man on fire no longer amuses me. I've been...making promisess...and keeping them just because I made them! I feel...remorse about all the people I've lit on fire! I gave a crust of bread to an orphan! What's wrong with me?

Doctor: I'm afraid that strain of lycanthropy you picked up has altered your alignment.

Lycanthrope: You don't mean...

Doctor: I'm afraid so. You've become Lawful Good.

Lycanthrope: *falls to knees, implores heavens* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Flickerdart
2010-05-25, 10:26 AM
Lycanthrope: *falls to knees, implores heavens* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Surely you mean hells?

Deme
2010-05-25, 10:32 AM
Surely you mean hells?

I mainly meant "heavens" as in "sky," since anything else makes for a funky and less dramatic posture for the big NOOOOOOOO!

Oh, and so I'm not entirely off-topic: I could imagine the claws just coming out of his side, like some sort of spike-snake -- but unless his bite passed down the half-dragon part of the affliction (which I doubt), then anyone he afflicts would not have claws.

Greenish
2010-05-25, 10:36 AM
I mainly meant "heavens" as in "sky," since anything else makes for a funky and less dramatic posture for the big NOOOOOOOO!Well, if you have a deep chasms (preferrably with rails on the edge), you can lean over it and yell "NOOOOOOO!" downwards.

Oh, and so I'm not entirely off-topic: I could imagine the claws just coming out of his side, like some sort of spike-snake -- but unless his bite passed down the half-dragon part of the affliction (which I doubt), then anyone he afflicts would not have claws.Maybe their spurs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelvic_spur) just burst out into fully-functioning legs/arms/claws/whatever?

Barbarian MD
2010-05-25, 11:17 AM
...Now I'm imagining a comic with this premise.
Lycanthrope: Doctor, you've got to help me! Since around last month...things have been...odd. I'm no longer enjoying the idea that the world is fundementally doomed, so we may as well just destroy everything and get it over with. A man on fire no longer amuses me. I've been...making promisess...and keeping them just because I made them! I feel...remorse about all the people I've lit on fire! I gave a crust of bread to an orphan! What's wrong with me?

Doctor: I'm afraid that strain of lycanthropy you picked up has altered your alignment.

Lycanthrope: You don't mean...

Doctor: I'm afraid so. You've become Lawful Good.

Lycanthrope: *falls to knees, implores heavens* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I'm actually playing a character like this now. Chaotic Evil Orc Barbarian who worshipped an evil god of destruction along with his war party. They ran across a werebear on an expedition without realizing it. He got bit while killing it and slew his war party over the course of a month without realizing it. It's my favorite backstory by far.

Volthawk
2010-05-25, 12:07 PM
I guess, you are right about the lycantrophy, but half-dragon were-penguins are still stupid. :smallamused:

I have to play that. With or without the half-dragon. Although a guy who turns into a penguin and also can breathe cold is kinda cool.

Benejeseret
2010-05-25, 12:35 PM
From a straight developmental biology type view the snake with arms issue would not be too far off.

At its core, lycanthropy is about essentially returning to a more primal and savage state. Becoming the predator within, so to speak. De-evolving if you will (really, really bad term - granted)

Snakes did once have arms and many retain their pseudo pelvis and other such rudimentary structures. So when lycanthropy turns you into a savage proto-human snake form, having claws/limbs in your 'de-evolved' snakeform might not be too far off a sci-fi fluff type line of thought.

And if you started with no limbs...well...easy enough to fluff that the species once had limbs (evolved or wizarded away) and the whole line of arguments still holds true

Greenish
2010-05-25, 12:40 PM
At its core, lycanthropy is about essentially returning to a more primal and savage state.

So when lycanthropy turns you into a savage proto-human snake form, having claws/limbs in your 'de-evolved' snakeform might not be too far off a sci-fi fluff type line of thought.Lycanthropy in most fiction involves turning into a member of another (modern) species, or a "hybrid" between two species. Not "de-evolving" (if the best way to explain your idea is with a phrase that causes biologists to cry, better rethink it).

Flickerdart
2010-05-25, 12:44 PM
Lycanthropy in most fiction involves turning into a member of another (modern) species, or a "hybrid" between two species. Not "de-evolving" (if the best way to explain your idea is with a phrase that causes biologists to cry, better rethink it).
That is, unless you were a Were-Fleshraker. Or a Were-Battletitan.

Greenish
2010-05-25, 12:47 PM
That is, unless you were a Were-Fleshraker. Or a Were-Battletitan.So the curse would cause you to go down along one of the branches of the tree of life, and then up another? That's exactly the same as just turning into another species, not the same as "reverting to earlier forms".

Besides, dinosaurs are contemporary animals in D&D.

Bharg
2010-05-25, 12:59 PM
I have to play that. With or without the half-dragon. Although a guy who turns into a penguin and also can breathe cold is kinda cool.

I wonder what alignment a were-penguin would have...

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-25, 01:55 PM
I wonder what alignment a were-penguin would have...

Lawful Neutral. Penguins live in a very ordered society and are very dignified.

Benejeseret
2010-05-25, 01:55 PM
Hehe, cringe indeed. I am a developmental/geneticist and I definitely cringed as I wrote it.

What I meant by the essence aspect is that if you break down the folklore/psyche aspect of monsters to their core human fears/phobias I think you might find something like this:

Vampires = fear of amorality
Lycanthropes = fear of human's primal urges
Wendigos = fear of cannibalism / other cultures
Far Realm Creatures = fear of human's place in the universe (lack of importance)


And in hybrid form you are exactly halfway between two branches of life - which under a classic phylogenetic tree would place you BASAL to both branches and thus a more ancient branch prior to the split of the two.

Are you de-evolving in any sense of the horrible word?? NO, because only species evolve, but you are being retroactively placed in a lineage prior to the split between reptiles and mammals....which is really, really old, and your traits would likely be best represented by what we know of those early pre-mammalian organisms.

Maybe Therapsida? Maybe even older...my paleobiology is not very good



**And, putting aside the trap that is phylogeny for a second, going back to assuming something along the lines of lateral gene transfer you would still have 'genes' (or DnD's equilvalent ie Template/race) for both species and so your mammalian genes say *place limb here, mammalian traits* but your snake genes say *no limb, and make everything reptilian/snake traits*

Limb plus No Limb usually results in Limb being Dominant and so you have a limb (maybe stunted if gene dosage an issue) but it will be a blend of mammalian and snake under a Co-dominant trait.

But meh, we're all just speaking out of our arses here so go with whatever suites your world/game

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-05-25, 06:20 PM
Ewy

It's the Level Adjustment, right? That's the true curse?LA buy-off. We all know the true curse of lycanthrope is the FREAKING RHD! Reasonable, balancing homebrew is required but I have the cure.

Bharg
2010-05-25, 07:18 PM
Lawful Neutral. Penguins live in a very ordered society and are very dignified.
Not Neutral Evil? Their behavior is indeed quite suspicious and I always felt that they were plotting something.

Btw: Do evil lycantrophs have to eat human flesh to survive?

Threeshades
2010-05-25, 07:29 PM
1. I don't see why a weresnake half-dragon in hybrid form should not have claws. Hybrid form as far as I know is still humanoid in build, and if the humanoid is a half dragon, i don't see why the claws would vanish. It's not like the character suddenly ceases to be a half-dragon, and as long as she still is, her features should be present in her hybrid form.

2. About armless persons, I don't see any other reason for a person to be armless than crippling (mutilation or at birth), and in that case any halfway sane DM would rule "No claws for you!"

3. I don't think you regenerate limbs when you change form, but #2 makes this question void anyhow.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-05-25, 08:49 PM
But being armless is not a condition, nor does it carry any consequences in the D&D universe. A person lacking arms can still wield weapons or cast spells (but they can't cast spells if both their hands are full, barring certain feats).

I don't see what the problem is.

Olo Demonsbane
2010-05-25, 10:31 PM
Ewy
LA buy-off. We all know the true curse of lycanthrope is the FREAKING RHD! Reasonable, balancing homebrew is required but I have the cure.

Here is the secret: Level Drain. Hit yourself with an Energy Drain, Restoration up any other levels you lost, and you're good as new.

Icewraith
2010-05-26, 12:55 AM
Is there some rule about racial HD being lost first?

Tavar
2010-05-26, 01:00 AM
I think it's because you lose the most recent levels first, and generally your most recent levels in play are the RHD, if you've gained it from play.

true_shinken
2010-05-26, 07:15 AM
I think it's because you lose the most recent levels first, and generally your most recent levels in play are the RHD, if you've gained it from play.

Wow, that sure as hell is a nice trick.

Gadora
2010-05-26, 07:51 PM
Funny, I thought the real curse of lycanthropy was trying to figure out the supposed alignment of nonstandard animals. :smallwink::smallamused:

One thing you can do is look at the tables for summon monster.