PDA

View Full Version : Inherent Bonuses?



Lix Lorn
2010-05-25, 05:47 AM
The manuals that boost your stats give an 'inherent' bonus. Does this stack? Is it permanent? :smallconfused:

Malacode
2010-05-25, 05:53 AM
You can have a maximum of +5 inherent bonus to a stat, IIRC. They stack, up to +5. May be misremembering. It's definitely permanent

Lix Lorn
2010-05-25, 06:14 AM
Ah! Thank you! ^_^

hewhosaysfish
2010-05-25, 06:16 AM
Bonuses of the same kind never stack (for a given value of never).
So, you could not stack the bonuses from e.g. 2 Manuals of Gainful Exercise.

Malacode may be thinking of the wish spell, which can also be used to gain inherent bonuses to stats and which explicity allows you to cast it multiple times in quick succession to get one big bonus (max +5) rather than lots of little ones.

I do believe the cap of +5 is only part of the wish spell though, so theoretically a sufficiently high-level caster could create a Tome of +6 to Int, or whatever.

And, yes, the bonuses from Tomes are permanent. I am unsure as to whether they can be dispelled.

Lix Lorn
2010-05-25, 06:18 AM
(nods) It's okay, a +2 manual costs the same as two +1s.
Thanks.

Douglas
2010-05-25, 06:26 AM
I do believe the cap of +5 is only part of the wish spell though, so theoretically a sufficiently high-level caster could create a Tome of +6 to Int, or whatever.
No, that's a universal limit. Inherent bonuses cannot go above +5.

Lix Lorn
2010-05-25, 07:01 AM
Thanks everyone. ^_^

sonofzeal
2010-05-25, 10:41 AM
I should note that there was a really long and technical debate over at BG about whether Inherent Bonuses still applied in Wildshape/Polymorph, with the eventual answer of "no". I can't for the life of me remember the logic though.

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 10:47 AM
Bonuses of the same kind never stack (for a given value of never).

Good qualifier there - some same-type bonuses do stack, such as dodge bonuses.

Lix Lorn
2010-05-25, 11:00 AM
I should note that there was a really long and technical debate over at BG about whether Inherent Bonuses still applied in Wildshape/Polymorph, with the eventual answer of "no". I can't for the life of me remember the logic though.
Heh. Wonder why..?
Oh well, I'm playing a deeply unoptimised Spellscale Cerebremancer.

VonDragon
2010-05-25, 11:28 AM
inherent bonus do stack to max +5 to an given stat and effectively could as a permanent increase to the stat like those you get a lvl up(they dont go away in antimagic field)

kamikasei
2010-05-25, 11:35 AM
inherent bonus do stack to max +5 to an given stat

This is incorrect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm).

"Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies."


...and effectively could as a permanent increase to the stat like those you get a lvl up(they dont go away in antimagic field)

Well, "Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled."

sonofzeal
2010-05-25, 11:41 AM
Heh. Wonder why..?
Oh well, I'm playing a deeply unoptimised Spellscale Cerebremancer.
I believe the eventual conclusion was that inherent bonuses are tied to the specific form, just like your starting ability scores and the bonuses you gain from levelling up. If your Human Druid puts an 18 in Dex and then raise it twice as he levels, that doesn't make his Dire Ape form any more agile. Same thing with Manuals of Quickness of Action.

Hendel
2010-05-25, 11:50 AM
Once more, this a weird area that is not helped by slight inconsistencies of applying the rule.

Inherent bonuses do not stack. The only exception is given under the Wish spell that has been linked to earlier in this thread. That exception states that multiple Wish spells cast in rapid succession will allow for inherent bonuses to a particular ability score to stack. It further goes on to say that other than this exception, inherent bonuses do NOT stack.

If I read a book to get +1 to Str and then later read a +3 book, I have a net gain of +3, not +4 to my Str. The greater bonus overcomes the smaller one. We did not like this in my game, so we allowed them to stack, but that is a houserule and not RAW.

It also does max out at +5. There are always character level based ability increases every four levels and epic feats to help you raise your ability scores. These are apparently unnamed bonuses, so they would in fact stack.

Lix Lorn
2010-05-25, 11:52 AM
That makes sense. (nods)

Draz74
2010-05-25, 12:03 PM
This is incorrect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm).

"Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies."
Stacking them is, however, a popular houserule. Because it's really annoying to avoid buying +1 and +2 Tomes when you can afford them, just because they're going to be obsoleted by your eventual +5 Tome.


Well, "Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled."
However, by symmetry, it would seem that a hostile opponent with access to Wish or similar could give you inherent penalties to your ability scores, which effectively would dispel your inherent bonuses.

sonofzeal
2010-05-25, 12:25 PM
However, by symmetry, it would seem that a hostile opponent with access to Wish or similar could give you inherent penalties to your ability scores, which effectively would dispel your inherent bonuses.
Yeah, but then they're blowing a Wish to do hardly anything to you. I'd point and laugh if they wasted actions and gp and spellslots for that.

Greenish
2010-05-25, 12:31 PM
I believe the eventual conclusion was that inherent bonuses are tied to the specific form, just like your starting ability scores and the bonuses you gain from levelling up. If your Human Druid puts an 18 in Dex and then raise it twice as he levels, that doesn't make his Dire Ape form any more agile. Same thing with Manuals of Quickness of Action.But you do keep your original mental stats, so shouldn't they carry over?

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 12:42 PM
Heh. Wonder why..?
Oh well, I'm playing a deeply unoptimised Spellscale Cerebremancer.

Wilder/Sorcerer? Wilder/Sublime Chord?

Lix Lorn
2010-05-25, 12:46 PM
Wilder/Sorcerer, using Fax Celestis' Cerebremancer fix.
What's a sublime chord?

I agree that the mental stats should carry over. (nod)

And it'd make sense to Wish someone's stats down if you could snipe them with it repeatedly. XD
'Well, that's a good mission well done, lets go ho-'
'(pops up) WISH! (Vanishes)'
'...:smallfrown:'

Greenish
2010-05-25, 12:48 PM
What's a sublime chord?Bard-ish PrC that gets spellcasting with up to 9-level spells in 10 or so levels.

Lix Lorn
2010-05-25, 12:50 PM
Yikes. ._.

sonofzeal
2010-05-25, 01:07 PM
But you do keep your original mental stats, so shouldn't they carry over?
Yes. But they're Tomes, not Manuals. </nitpick>


I think part of the debate was whether they're "instantaneous" or "permanent" effects. If they're permanent you'd get them in wildshape/polymorph, if they're instantaneous then they apply to the form you're in at the time, with normal carry-over rules (so, mental but not physical). But at the same time, there's odd interaction with stacking rules. Meh, it was a while ago.

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 01:09 PM
Bard-ish PrC that gets spellcasting with up to 9-level spells in 10 or so levels.

9 levels actually (you get bonus spells/day from Charisma at 9.)


Yikes. ._.

With the right feats, you can enter Sublime Chord with a single level of Bard, which will cause you to only lose 2 manifesting levels and therefore qualify for both 9th-level spells and 9th-level powers.

You'll have to sacrifice your 2nd- and 3rd-level Bard spells to do it though.

Bard 1 (Precocious Apprentice)/Wilder 8/Cerebremancer 1 (Sanctum Spell)/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer +9.

Draz74
2010-05-25, 01:11 PM
Yeah, but then they're blowing a Wish to do hardly anything to you. I'd point and laugh if they wasted actions and gp and spellslots for that.

In battle? Sure.

It's freaking Wish. I don't think it has much of a Range limitation. You think all's well with the world, then suddenly one day you wake up and find your CON has been decreased by 2 by your distant nemesis's Wishes.

Also, if it's the DM doing it, then he doesn't necessarily have to worry about annoyances like XP cost.

Greenish
2010-05-25, 01:15 PM
Yes. But they're Tomes, not Manuals.Oh yeah, obviously.
9 levels actually (you get bonus spells/day from Charisma at 9.)Couldn't remember offhand so I went with a guess. :smallcool:

Togo
2010-05-25, 01:19 PM
Yes. But they're Tomes, not Manuals. </nitpick>

I think part of the debate was whether they're "instantaneous" or "permanent" effects. If they're permanent you'd get them in wildshape/polymorph, if they're instantaneous then they apply to the form you're in at the time, with normal carry-over rules (so, mental but not physical).

I remember that debate. Many posters were quite adamant that an inherent bonus to a character could only apply to a particular physical form, but noone ever came up with a reason why this should be the case, or a rule that would back them up on it. It seemed to be a 'common sense' thing based on how they pictured the effect working.

In general, I follow the same rule as every other bonus type in the game, all of which follow from form to form.

sonofzeal
2010-05-25, 01:22 PM
I remember that debate. Many posters were quite adamant that an inherent bonus to a character could only apply to a particular physical form, but noone ever came up with a reason why this should be the case, or a rule that would back them up on it. It seemed to be a 'common sense' thing based on how they pictured the effect working.

In general, I follow the same rule as every other bonus type in the game, all of which follow from form to form.
Where GiantITP failed, Brilliant Gameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6765.0) (eventually) succeeded.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-25, 01:27 PM
But you do keep your original mental stats, so shouldn't they carry over?

Physical change as opposed to mental change.

Note what happens when you PAO someone/thing.
I remember that debate. Many posters were quite adamant that an inherent bonus to a character could only apply to a particular physical form, but noone ever came up with a reason why this should be the case, or a rule that would back them up on it. It seemed to be a 'common sense' thing based on how they pictured the effect working.

In general, I follow the same rule as every other bonus type in the game, all of which follow from form to form.

Again, you're changing your physical form to match that of a creature/animal... not a creature/animal with 4 character levels.


I believe the eventual conclusion was that inherent bonuses are tied to the specific form, just like your starting ability scores and the bonuses you gain from levelling up. If your Human Druid puts an 18 in Dex and then raise it twice as he levels, that doesn't make his Dire Ape form any more agile. Same thing with Manuals of Quickness of Action.

Of course, said Druid could wildshape into his favorite combat form and then read the Tome/Manual... Giving him the Inherent Bonus in his favorite (read: memorized) combat form.

Togo
2010-05-26, 02:19 AM
Again, you're changing your physical form to match that of a creature/animal... not a creature/animal with 4 character levels.

Sure, that's a different issue. The stat increase every four levels isn't a bonus, inherent or otherwise.

The idea that an inherent bonus is limited to a particular form is an odd one though. It's predicated on the assumption that it's a change to an existing stat, which by RAW it definitively isn't, and on the assumption that such a physical change can only mean a change to a particular form.

It runs contrary to the entire bonus system, and isn't backed up, either by rules or by fluff, anywhere in the game system. as least as far as I have been able to tell.


Of course, said Druid could wildshape into his favorite combat form and then read the Tome/Manual... Giving him the Inherent Bonus in his favorite (read: memorized) combat form.

Sure, because gaining cosmis wisdom that allows you to move more dextrously is limited to a single form, whereas training to dodge stuff carries over to every body you could ever possibly have... :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2010-05-26, 05:21 AM
It's not cosmic wisdom, I think it's just a magical effect that enhances your own abilities. But it's instantaneous, rather than permanent-It makes your muscles bigger, not just make you hit harder through magic. The fluff makes sense to me.

Runestar
2010-05-26, 05:45 AM
I have always thought that an inherent stat bonus was otherwise identical to the stat bonus you get every 4th lv, just that it was made inherent so you couldn't keep reading +1 tomes to acquire a bonus beyond +5.

paddyfool
2010-05-26, 05:58 AM
It's freaking Wish. I don't think it has much of a Range limitation. You think all's well with the world, then suddenly one day you wake up and find your CON has been decreased by 2 by your distant nemesis's Wishes.


A fine reward for a player who tries to set off a Candle of Invocation wish chain would be the receit of hostile wishes of this and worse varieties...