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Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 12:14 PM
In my upcoming Forgotten Realms campaign, the Weave has gone to hell in a handbasket. Spellcasters are forced to literally cast spells with caution to the wind. All they get to pick is the spell's level. So I need something that meshes well with either Orc, Half-Orc, or Goliath. We are gonna be 2nd level

Hendel
2010-05-25, 12:16 PM
In my upcoming Forgotten Realms campaign, the Weave has gone to hell in a handbasket. Spellcasters are forced to literally cast spells with caution to the wind. All they get to pick is the spell's level. So I need something that meshes well with either Orc, Half-Orc, or Goliath. We are gonna be 2nd level

What is wrong with a Fighter!?

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 12:18 PM
What is wrong with a Fighter!?

fighter's a joke class. It sucks without SERIOUS screwing with

Kylarra
2010-05-25, 12:21 PM
fighter's a joke class. It sucks without SERIOUS screwing withPlay a Warblade then?

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 12:22 PM
Play a Warblade then?

DM said no ToB

Kylarra
2010-05-25, 12:23 PM
DM said no ToBPlay a PsyWar? This class suggestion thing goes faster if you tell us what houserules and disallowed books you're working with.

Morty
2010-05-25, 12:25 PM
If the spellcasters can't decide which spells they cast, isn't fighters being underpowered a non-issue? But if you don't want to play a core fighter anyway, try a fighter fix like Ultimate Fighter. (http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Fighter)

Aharon
2010-05-25, 12:25 PM
Truenamer... For once, their kind of magic will be more reliable than that of the real casters. :smallbiggrin:

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 12:26 PM
Play a PsyWar? Or some other psionic class.

Psionics are the same as spellcasting. Any form of casting (including Incarnum) is now 100% randomized

Morty
2010-05-25, 12:27 PM
Psionics are the same as spellcasting. Any form of casting (including Incarnum) is now 100% randomized

Psionics doesn't use the Weave, actually.

Siosilvar
2010-05-25, 12:28 PM
hmm... non-casting Ranger (CWar)? Archery path, use a greatsword for melee combat.

Don't forget you can draw weapons as part of a move action.

Kylarra
2010-05-25, 12:28 PM
Psionics are the same as spellcasting. Any form of casting (including Incarnum) is now 100% randomizedI'm gonna reiterate my edit then. TELL US ALL THE HOUSERULES AND BOOKS ALLOWED SO THAT WE DON'T PLAY THIS GAME OF GOTCHA.

Swok
2010-05-25, 12:30 PM
Although really, if casters are crapped on like that, you're far better off not being a caster. Most of the power of spellcasters pretty much evaporates if you have no control over what you cast.

Hendel
2010-05-25, 12:30 PM
fighter's a joke class. It sucks without SERIOUS screwing with

I would think that this would be the perfect time to be a fighter with the spell casters in such disaray.

Also, I don't think they suck, you just need to pick your direction and stick with it in your feat selection. At lower levels they are better than most classes in my opinion. At higher levels, the casters tend to rule, but you do not have that issue. Unless you see this wild-magic time coming to an end soon...

Maybe you look at the Mage Slayer feat tree to totally mess with the casters. Now you cannot cast defensively around me AND you are not sure what you will be casting!! Brilliant! Win one for the meat shields!

Aharon
2010-05-25, 12:31 PM
Does being a wild mage confer any advantage?
Does anybody in your group plan on playing a caster?
What about spell-likes?
What happens if the chosen spell isn't legal for that target?
"I cast a first level spell at the orc." "You identify him."

All of this sounds like a very roundabout way to say "It's actually FR low magic, and I want you to play non-casters."

So I would do just that. Barbarian, Dungeoncrusher Fighter, Rogue... take your pick.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 12:33 PM
All FR books, All Complete, ect. And all forms of casting are randomized

Swok
2010-05-25, 12:34 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the mental gymnastics required to classify incarnum as spellcasting.

hamishspence
2010-05-25, 12:35 PM
If "all magic isn't working" rather than "the Weave isn't working" then psionics is included (since it's a form of magic)- if it is only the weave that's messed up, psionics is fine.

Players Guide to Faerun:

Unlike spells, which derive their power from Faeun's Weave (or Shadow Weave), psionic power taps only the inner reservoirs of the manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using the magic of its own lifeforce and mind to create psionic effects. Mystra and Shar have no ability to deny psionic creatures access to powers, and they do not control the promulgation of psionic lore and ability throughout Faerun.

While psionics does not require the Weave to function, psionic powers are magical in nature.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 12:35 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the mental gymnastics required to classify incarnum as spellcasting.

He said that's how it works, since you draw from the Incarnum, which in his book, is interconnected with the Weave.

And there are "Calm Areas" where the Weave isn't a Charlie Fox, if you speak phonetic...

hamishspence
2010-05-25, 12:40 PM
As written in MoI, sometimes incarnum seems to come from within- it's the character's own personal soul energy) and sometimes from without (incarnum wielders can manipulate ambient soul energy.)

Either way, Mystra shouldn't be able to deny an incarnum wielder their powers- but if "magic itself" (rather than just the Weave) is going haywire, then incarnum wielders might be affected too.

Aharon
2010-05-25, 12:42 PM
So... Goliath Barbarian?

Or are you totally bent on not playing a martial class despite the obvious advantages it has in your current campaign?

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 12:43 PM
As written in MoI, sometimes incarnum seems to come from within- it's the character's own personal soul energy) and sometimes from without (incarnum wielders can manipulate ambient soul energy.)

Either way, Mystra shouldn't be able to deny an incarnum wielder their powers- but if "magic itself" (rather than just the Weave) is gong haywire, then incarnum wielders might be affected too.

in this case, they are. Magic as a whole is on Wheel of Fortune mode, inless you happen to be in a calm zone.

Hence why I want something that makes an Orc in the Party not look like some bdb (Big, Dumb Brute), which we have in an Orc Barbarain

Aharon
2010-05-25, 12:47 PM
Well, you could have said that earlier. You asked for something that meshes well with 3 rather melee focused races.

What about a Knowledge-Devotion rogue, then? At higher levels, you can still UMD in the areas where magic works.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 12:48 PM
Well, you could have said that earlier. You asked for something that meshes well with 3 rather melee focused classes.

What about a Knowledge-Devotion rogue, then? At higher levels, you can still UMD in the areas where magic works.

Well, actually was looking at Knight (to play against the Orc-Stereotype). Is knight all that good?

Grumman
2010-05-25, 12:50 PM
I'd suggest not playing. This just screams "The DM is a control freak, and will abuse this houserule to make your life a living hell."

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 12:51 PM
I'd suggest not playing. This just screams "The DM is a control freak, and will abuse this houserule to make your life a living hell."

Opposite. He wants spellcasters to be on the same par as melee. In his idea, the spellcaster must make do with what he gets to pull victory from the jaws of defeat

Aharon
2010-05-25, 12:57 PM
Sorry, can't help you there. I never looked into the class all too thoroughly. JaronK puts it at Tier 5, the same as fighter and paladin, in his Tier system found at BrilliantGameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0). As usual, they can be higher with optimization. All I can do is point to the Knight handbook on the same site (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6059.0).

Also note that this houserule really, really makes martial characters less useless. Even a normal fighter might be viable, despite it normally being considered weak.

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 12:58 PM
Be a class with a small spell list, like a Warlock - that weights the odds of getting what you want heavily in your favor, and because you never run out of "ammunition" you can just keep spamming until you get what you need.

Binder too - since what you get is based on what you bind (and it is also unlimited use) randomizing it won't help him very much.


Psionics doesn't use the Weave, actually.

No, but because it interacts with the Weave, you could feasibly stretch Weave instability to affecting psionic powers.

(For external effects, anyway. Self-powers should probably be unaffected.)

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 12:59 PM
Sorry, can't help you there. I never looked into the class all too thoroughly. JaronK puts it at Tier 5, the same as fighter and paladin, in his Tier system found at BrilliantGameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0). As usual, they can be higher with optimization. All I can do is point to the Knight handbook on the same site (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6059.0).

Also note that this houserule really, really makes martial characters less useless. Even a normal fighter might be viable, despite it normally being considered weak.

ok. Knight or Warlock (who ironically isn't affected) SLAs and Sup. aren't affected

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:00 PM
Well, actually was looking at Knight (to play against the Orc-Stereotype). Is knight all that good?

As a dip its okay, but for the long run its not better than a fighter. Knight is also PHII, which wasn't on your allowed list, neither was MoI, so can we please know what is allowed and what isn't. In UA there is a wildhsaping ranger, is that randomized as well? What about binding?

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 01:01 PM
ok. Knight or Warlock (who ironically isn't affected) SLAs and Sup. aren't affected

That settles it then - If Su and Sp aren't affected, be a Warlock, Binder or a Shadowcaster and keep up the cast-y goodness.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:02 PM
As a dip its okay, but for the long run its not better than a fighter. Knight is also PHII, which wasn't on your allowed list, neither was MoI, so can we please know what is allowed and what isn't. In UA there is a wildhsaping ranger, is that randomized as well? What about binding?

here's the complete list: ANY 3.5, within DM's descression. No ToB classes or such, but non-maneuver feats are ok. Wildshape ceases to function in non-calm areas, and I dunno about Binding

PId6
2010-05-25, 01:03 PM
Play a sorcerer. At every level, pick spells that do similar effects. Take UMD and get wands/scrolls/staffs for the utility spells like Dimension Door. Now you don't really care if your casting is randomized.

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:08 PM
here's the complete list: ANY 3.5, within DM's descression. No ToB classes or such, but non-maneuver feats are ok. Wildshape ceases to function in non-calm areas, and I dunno about Binding

Binder should be fine since they're Su. Dragonfire depts are from Dragon Magic and are similar to the warlock, you mihgt find them more appealing.

Aharon
2010-05-25, 01:09 PM
Well, what would you prefer to play? The non-randomized semi-casters will be more powerful, but this is a good chance to play a mundane character and not be totally overshadowed.

@PId6
I assumed spells cast from items are also effected, so you wouldn't get your utility, and be very limited in what you can do. If it isn't, that's good advice.

@OP:
Do spells cast from items work normally?

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:09 PM
Play a sorcerer. At every level, pick spells that do similar effects. Take UMD and get wands/scrolls/staffs for the utility spells like Dimension Door. Now you don't really care if your casting is randomized.

Ummm...You cast randomly from the WHOLE LIST

and I don't get/own Tome of Magic, and DFA is amusing, minus the Dragons in this Faerun are extinct (minus the Dragon Gods)

PId6
2010-05-25, 01:11 PM
Ummm...You cast randomly from the WHOLE LIST
Well, I guess that solves the sorcerer's spells known problem. :smalltongue:

Join in the madness and go Wild Mage? :smallbiggrin:

(How does that even work? That's a hell of a lot of dice rolling + counting to determine which spell being cast, and is that only PHB spells or does it include supplements?)

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:13 PM
Ummm...You cast randomly from the WHOLE LIST

Even if spells are limited to core only, is a d100 enough?


and I don't get/own Tome of Magic, and DFA is amusing, minus the Dragons in this Faerun are extinct (minus the Dragon Gods)

Dragons do not need to be alieve for DFA to exist. Even if you do not reflavour them to a different beast, they could just use a form of magic taght to humans by dragonkind while they still lived.

Edit: Sounds like your DM could have been more straight forwards and just banned all full casters.

Aharon
2010-05-25, 01:14 PM
That pretty much leaves warlock as a caster, I guess.

Also, your available books aren't clear at all:
1) DM said no ToB
2) All FR books, All Complete, ect.
3) here's the complete list: ANY 3.5, within DM's descression. No ToB classes or such, but non-maneuver feats are ok. Wildshape ceases to function in non-calm areas, and I dunno about Binding
4) and I don't get/own Tome of Magic, and DFA is amusing, minus the Dragons in this Faerun are extinct (minus the Dragon Gods)

So what can you use, and what can't you?
It would be nice if you made a comprehensive list of materials you have available (what use is it to you if the DM allows it, but you can't access it?), and of all the houserules.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-05-25, 01:18 PM
here's the complete list: ANY 3.5, within DM's descression. No ToB classes or such, but non-maneuver feats are ok. Wildshape ceases to function in non-calm areas, and I dunno about Binding

Even though Wildshape's a (Su) ability? I'm surprised your DM doesn't just say: No tier 1 or 2 characters.

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 01:18 PM
Well, I guess that solves the sorcerer's spells known problem. :smalltongue:

Join in the madness and go Wild Mage? :smallbiggrin:

(How does that even work? That's a hell of a lot of dice rolling + counting to determine which spell being cast, and is that only PHB spells or does it include supplements?)

Maybe he has a spreadsheet? :smallconfused:



So what can you use, and what can't you?
It would be nice if you made a comprehensive list of materials you have available (what use is it to you if the DM allows it, but you can't access it?), and of all the houserules.

This; just knowing what your DM allows isn't enough, we need to know what you have too.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:19 PM
DM allows all books, but he specifically said no Tome of Battle classes, when i suggested it.

How it works is lets say you want to cast Fireball. You first roll a d20. If its 15 or better, you cast Fireball. If it's 10-14, you roll a d% from the DM's table. If its 1-5, you just burned a spell slot.

I want to play an Orc (as in pureblood) against type. Considering how a knight is a thinking warrior, then that plays against type, I think...

Seatbelt
2010-05-25, 01:22 PM
How it works is lets say you want to cast Fireball. You first roll a d20. If its 15 or better, you cast Fireball. If it's 10-14, you roll a d% from the DM's table. If its 1-5, you just burned a spell slot.




That sounds interesting for a one-shot but I'm not sure I'd want to play a campaign in that environment. :(

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:23 PM
That sounds interesting for a one-shot but I'm not sure I'd want to play a campaign in that environment. :(

Our goal as PCs is to essentially fix the Weave

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 01:24 PM
It sounds like you want to be melee, so go nuts. An Orcish Knight would definitely be more against-type than an Orcish Warlock or an Orcish Binder.

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:24 PM
I want to play an Orc (as in pureblood) against type. Considering how a knight is a thinking warrior, then that plays against type, I think...

Take anough levels in knight to make all ajacent squares count as difficult terrain (I think its level 3), then go fighter 2 for bonus feats. Then you can enter a PrC is you want to, or continue adcancing a base class.

Lock down is generally considered the most useful fighter type. Use a spiked chain, combat reflexes, improved trip and standstill to control your enemies.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:26 PM
Considering using the halberd, which has been homebrewed to do more accurate damage (it's equal to Greataxe, but has pseudoreach)

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:27 PM
Considering using the halberd, which has been homebrewed to do more accurate damage (it's equal to Greataxe, but has pseudoreach)

FOr a controller build, reach is the key. Get spiked armour so you threatan adjacent squares as well, and pretty much every else applies the same way.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:28 PM
Also considering a dwarf who emulates Steven from Braveheart. (Randomly talks to Moradin)

and isn't Spiked Armor REALLY expensive

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:30 PM
Also considering a dwarf who emulates Steven from Braveheart. (Randomly talks to Moradin)

Fighter/Knight build is equally viable no matter your race.


and isn't Spiked Armor REALLY expensive

Nope, +50gp.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:33 PM
Fighter/Knight build is equally viable no matter your race.
So, would that match the weirdo Irishman?



Nope, +50gp.

is that viable for a lv2 PC?

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 01:35 PM
is that viable for a lv2 PC?

Starting gold is usually 100, isn't it? And will you be lvl 2 forever?

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:35 PM
So, would that match the weirdo Irishman?

It has been a long time since I saw the movie, but wasn't he more of a dex fighter with a steady aim when it cam to thrown weapons? Because then master thrower from complete warrior would be better, possibly going scout 4 / Fighter 2 to qualify.


is that viable for a lv2 PC?

Recommended wealth for second level character is 900gp.

stenver
2010-05-25, 01:38 PM
----------------------------------------

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:38 PM
It has been a long time since I saw the movie, but wasn't he more of a dex fighter with a steady aim when it cam to thrown weapons? Because then master thrower from complete warrior would be better, possibly going scout 4 / Fighter 2 to qualify.

He was the guy with the flail, who randomly'd say, "Yes Father!"


Recommended wealth for second level character is 900gp.

considering also having to buy a nice weapon, quality armor, and a shield?

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:44 PM
He was the guy with the flail, who randomly'd say, "Yes Father!"

Sorry, can't remeber his abilities.


considering also having to buy a nice weapon, quality armor, and a shield?

Since none of that will be magical yes. Masterwork martial reach weapon is 310gp, branded mail is 250gp, heavy steel shield is 20gp, so that leaves 270gp once you get spikes on your armour. By the way, using a shield is generally considered no worth it, and you cannot use a 2 handed weapon like a halberd if you are using one.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:45 PM
Since none of that will be magical yes. Masterwork martial reach weapon is 310gp, branded mail is 250gp, heavy steel shield is 20gp, so that leaves 270gp once you get spikes on your armour. By the way, using a shield is generally considered no worth it, and you cannot use a 2 handed weapon like a halberd if you are using one.

Considering doing a Dwarf who is a complete jerk, weilding a combo axe-pick weapon and a shield

Akal Saris
2010-05-25, 01:47 PM
Be a class with a small spell list, like a Warlock - that weights the odds of getting what you want heavily in your favor, and because you never run out of "ammunition" you can just keep spamming until you get what you need.

Binder too - since what you get is based on what you bind (and it is also unlimited use) randomizing it won't help him very much.

I like this idea, actually. When you only have 1 spell of a given level, randomizing it won't be so bad :P

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:49 PM
Considering doing a Dwarf who is a complete jerk, weilding a combo axe-pick weapon and a shield

So warven axe? If so, get shield specialization and shield ward from PHII. Without a reach weapon you till need to decide your roll. Knight challange soon becomes less useful to maintain enemies attention and without a reach weapon battel field control becomes less afective, so you need to choose your role in the party.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:49 PM
This thread's officially done. I've decided on a Dwarf/Orc Knight/Fighter/Warblade (gonna try with the DM)

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:50 PM
So warven axe? If so, get shield specialization and shield ward from PHII. Without a reach weapon you till need to decide your roll. Knight challange soon becomes less useful to maintain enemies attention and without a reach weapon battel field control becomes less afective, so you need to choose your role in the party.

sorta. A Dwarven Waraxe with a pick on the head, so i can choose to use the broadaxe half of the head or the pick half

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:52 PM
Okay, well whatever you choose, warblade works best if you only dip out of 2 levels, assuming your DM okays it.

Mando Knight
2010-05-25, 01:52 PM
Just watch out: if the Weave is messed up and there's weird blue fire everywhere (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Spellplague), you'll fail. There is no going back.

...Also, don't go to Luskan, Neverwinter, Waterdeep, or anywhere like that. If the Weave is messed up, then places like those go kablooey (for a while, at least).

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:53 PM
Okay, well whatever you choose, warblade works best if you only dip out of 2 levels, assuming your DM okays it.

How is Warblade only 2 levels long?! The whole INT to every-bloody-thing ain't good enough?

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:55 PM
How is Warblade only 2 levels long?! The whole INT to every-bloody-thing ain't good enough?

Dip out of the warblade class. Warblade works best if you go warblade 3 some other martial class 2, then continue advancing warblade.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-25, 01:58 PM
DM allows all books, but he specifically said no Tome of Battle classes, when i suggested it.

How it works is lets say you want to cast Fireball. You first roll a d20. If its 15 or better, you cast Fireball. If it's 10-14, you roll a d% from the DM's table. If its 1-5, you just burned a spell slot.

I want to play an Orc (as in pureblood) against type. Considering how a knight is a thinking warrior, then that plays against type, I think...

...what happens if you roll a 6-9?

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:58 PM
Dip out of the warblade class. Warblade works best if you go warblade 3 some other martial class 2, then continue advancing warblade.

I was gonna go Warblade 10/That Dwarf PrC from ToB 10

PId6
2010-05-25, 01:59 PM
...what happens if you roll a 6-9?
You don't want to know. :smalleek:

Boci
2010-05-25, 01:59 PM
I was gonna go Warblade 10/That Dwarf PrC from ToB 10

Solid choice, but its only 5 levels long, so its actually warblade 15 / Deepstone sentinel 5. I have no idea why it isn't full BAB though...

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 02:00 PM
...what happens if you roll a 6-9?

I don't remember. I think it was, "The Spell Fizzles, but the spell slot is treated as if it wasn't used"

thanks for catching that, bro.

That, and spells have a d% (rolled hidden by the DM) that they backlash, doing the opposite of what they intend to (ie: Fireball blowing up in your face or Bull's Strength making the Half-Ogre stronger)

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 02:01 PM
----------------------------------------

You know that you can delete your posts, right? :smallconfused:


...what happens if you roll a 6-9?

I'm going to guess nothing happens, but you keep your slot :smallbiggrin:

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 02:02 PM
Solid choice, but its only 5 levels long, so its actually warblade 15 / Deepstone sentinel 5. I have no idea why it isn't full BAB though...

I was told on Wizard's that Deepstone Setinal is crap, becaus the class features aren't worth 5 levels

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 02:03 PM
I was told on Wizard's that Deepstone Setinal is crap, becaus the class features aren't worth 5 levels

No, no, Dwarven Defender is crap.
It's an easy mistake to make, don't worry.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 02:05 PM
No, no, Dwarven Defender is crap.
It's an easy mistake to make, don't worry.

Dwarven Defender is descent, when comboed with a Magic Carpet and a pair of Heavy Shields. Floating Wall, anyone?

Boci
2010-05-25, 02:05 PM
I was told on Wizard's that Deepstone Setinal is crap, becaus the class features aren't worth 5 levels

Class features are decent. Nothing amazing but definatly not crap. Stone dragon is the problem due to requiring you to be standing on solid ground to use any of the maneuvers, but that shouldn't be a problem in a world of such unreliable magic since you shouldn't be facing too many flying opponents.


Dwarven Defender is descent, when comboed with a Magic Carpet and a pair of Heavy Shields. Floating Wall, anyone?

Even if you get past the fact that you cannot move, it still isn't impressive in raw power. Isn't the barbarians rage superior to drawven stance?