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View Full Version : Halberd, Ranseur, or Guisarme #3.5#



Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:27 PM
Of these 3, which is the best?

Draz74
2010-05-25, 01:30 PM
Probably the Guisarme. The halberd lacks reach :smallfrown:, and Tripping is generally a stronger strategy than Disarming.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:32 PM
Probably the Guisarme. The halberd lacks reach :smallfrown:, and Tripping is generally a stronger strategy than Disarming.

So the Guisarme is great

Jair Barik
2010-05-25, 01:33 PM
I'd go with Halberd. Higher damage, can be set against a charge and has slashing or piercing depending on what the situation calls for. The others both have their own uses but they are more situational plus if your thinking of doing what they are good at its worth taking a feat to get spiked chain instead (all the bonuses of reach, gets trips and disarms but no minimum range)

Glaive-glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaive>all the above

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:34 PM
I'd go with Halberd. Higher damage, can be set against a charge and has slashing or piercing depending on what the situation calls for. The others both have their own uses but they are more situational plus if your thinking of doing what they are good at its worth taking a feat to get spiked chain instead (all the bonuses of reach, gets trips and disarms but no minimum range)

Glaive-glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaive>all the above
but spiked chain sucks (blasphemy, I realise) without Chain Fighter (Which lets you dual-weild them)

Eldariel
2010-05-25, 01:37 PM
but spiked chain sucks (blasphemy, I realise) without Chain Fighter (Which lets you dual-weild them)

Naa. Two-Handed Wielding is much better; you get full Power Attack, full bonuses and no extra feat expediture.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 01:39 PM
Naa. Two-Handed Wielding is much better; you get full Power Attack, full bonuses and no extra feat expediture.

Not feat, PrC (Master of Chains). Two separate trips on two numb-nuts

Akal Saris
2010-05-25, 01:43 PM
Heh...I don't think I've heard anyone use "numb-nuts" since middle school...

And master of chains is nice, but spiked chains are plenty broken without the PrC.

Jair Barik
2010-05-25, 01:44 PM
If you want to go down that path then may I suggest a Half Ogre weilding huge spiked chains (I 'think' they still get the extra reach...) through monkey grip and taking abberation blood (flexible limbs is generally good) and then inhuman reach.

Greenish
2010-05-25, 01:46 PM
And master of chains is nice, but spiked chains are plenty broken without the PrC.I wouldn't say "broken". I'd say "possibly worth spending a feat for". Yes, that makes them hugely better than most other exotic weapons.

[Edit]:
If you want to go down that path then may I suggest a Half Ogre weilding huge spiked chains (I 'think' they still get the extra reach...) through monkey grip and taking abberation blood (flexible limbs is generally good) and then inhuman reach.Monkey Grip sucks and you don't gain extra reach for using oversized reach weapons.

Eldariel
2010-05-25, 01:52 PM
Not feat, PrC (Master of Chains). Two separate trips on two numb-nuts

Eh, you generally don't need more trips than what your main attacks give you given how unlikely it is that your target is still standing after the first one, and the unlikelihood of you having that many enemies nearby... Generally standard full attack is enough, though Master of Chains isn't bad (though it has alignment restriction of "non-good" for whatever reason); still, Warblade, Psychic Warrior or even something silly like a Fighter can make fine use out of Spiked Chain with size increases to cover ~20' - 30' areas.

And wielding it as a double weapon takes TWF feats even with the class feature; it's generally worse.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 01:55 PM
I'd go with Halberd. Higher damage, can be set against a charge and has slashing or piercing depending on what the situation calls for. The others both have their own uses but they are more situational plus if your thinking of doing what they are good at its worth taking a feat to get spiked chain instead (all the bonuses of reach, gets trips and disarms but no minimum range)

Glaive-glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaive>all the above

I agree 100%.
-Xavez

aivanther
2010-05-25, 02:22 PM
but spiked chain sucks (blasphemy, I realise) without Chain Fighter (Which lets you dual-weild them)

Why blow it on a PrC when you could just get Kasri-gama instead? I'm sure I butchered that spelling.

Machiavellian
2010-05-25, 02:22 PM
Why blow it on a PrC when you could just get Kusari-gama instead? I'm sure I butchered that spelling.

Fixed. I'm a trained Ninja irl

Lateral
2010-05-25, 02:27 PM
Hey, are there actual stats for kusarigama?

Greenish
2010-05-25, 02:30 PM
Hey, are there actual stats for kusarigama?Yeah, it's a light spiked chain.

Draz74
2010-05-25, 02:30 PM
Hey, are there actual stats for kusarigama?

I believe so -- they're in the DMG, but not the SRD.

Dr Bwaa
2010-05-25, 02:32 PM
Hey, are there actual stats for kusarigama?

Here you go. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=75269)

Eldariel
2010-05-25, 02:51 PM
I believe so -- they're in the DMG, but not the SRD.

Page 145 in DMG. But eh, it's:
Light exotic weapon, 1d6 (Medium) damage, x2 crit, 10' reach + usable vs. adjacent, tripping, disarming and Finessable.

Lateral
2010-05-25, 03:12 PM
Page 145 in DMG. But eh, it's:
Light exotic weapon, 1d6 (Medium) damage, x2 crit, 10' reach + usable vs. adjacent, tripping, disarming and Finessable.

Well, I guess it's not great, but it's perfect for what I need mechanically and in flavor. How do I increase its reach length? Other than increased size, I mean.

Greenish
2010-05-25, 03:14 PM
Well, I guess it's not great, but it's perfect for what I need mechanically and in flavor. How do I increase its reach length?Enlarge Person and vile feats.

Godskook
2010-05-25, 03:18 PM
Enlarge Person and vile feats.

Vile feats? Which ones? - Forgot Willing Deformity was [Vile]

Also, there's:

Willing deformity + Deformity(Tall)

Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach

Each one extends the reach of a reach weapon by 10'(or your normal reach by 5'). One requires medium size, so will not stack with size increases.

Eldariel
2010-05-25, 03:22 PM
Well, I guess it's not great, but it's perfect for what I need mechanically and in flavor. How do I increase its reach length? Other than increased size, I mean.

It's actually pretty great. Right up there with Spiked Chain, as the best option for a non two-hander (of course, power-wise there's little excuse for not two-handing); you get Spiked Chain goodies on a light weapon chassis with only 1.5 points less average base damage.

Lateral
2010-05-25, 03:23 PM
Vile feats? Which ones? - Forgot Willing Deformity was [Vile]

Also, there's:

Willing deformity + Deformity(Tall)

Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach

Each one extends the reach of a reach weapon by 10'(or your normal reach by 5'). One requires medium size, so will not stack with size increases.

That's ok, I don't want a size increase. I know what Aberrant Blood feats are but what's a deformity feat? Also, does that mean that, with these feats, the reach becomes 30 feet with kusarigama? :smallbiggrin: Dual-wield chain tripper build, here I come!

Edit: Ah, no. Deformity (tall) is evil only, I'll stick with inhuman reach. 20 feet is good too!

Jair Barik
2010-05-25, 03:28 PM
If i understand correctly you can use whirlwind attack to get lots of trips. That said taking into account all the feats for increasing reach+the inevitable improved trip and combat reflexes you 'might' actually have to go fighter to have enough feats to add whirlwind into the mix (and its utility is limited anyway)

Octopus Jack
2010-05-25, 03:28 PM
Enlarge Person and vile feats.

You can use enlarge weapon instead of enlarge person if you don't want to increase in size for whatever reason. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

hamishspence
2010-05-25, 03:31 PM
I think one of the Eberron splatbooks may have a slightly better version of the weapon- same stats mostly, but better crit range- but I can't remember which book.

Greenish
2010-05-25, 03:31 PM
You can use enlarge weapon instead of enlarge person if you don't want to increase in size for whatever reason. Just thought I'd throw that out there.Enlarging the weapon doesn't increase it's reach, though.

[Edit]: Vile feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=4).

Octopus Jack
2010-05-25, 03:32 PM
Enlarging the weapon doesn't increase it's reach, though.

dosn't it? i thought it did... oops :smallredface:

sofawall
2010-05-25, 05:54 PM
I think one of the Eberron splatbooks may have a slightly better version of the weapon- same stats mostly, but better crit range- but I can't remember which book.

Might it have been Spinning Sword?

Amphetryon
2010-05-25, 06:46 PM
I think one of the Eberron splatbooks may have a slightly better version of the weapon- same stats mostly, but better crit range- but I can't remember which book.
Sounds like Xendrik.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-25, 07:25 PM
Sounds like Xendrik.
If you are refering to the spinning sword, it is found in Secrets of Sarlona

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-26, 06:15 AM
There is a Xen'drik Drow weapon working like Kusari Gama, D6, crit 19-20/x2. He's right, AFAIK.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-26, 11:54 AM
And master of chains is nice, but spiked chains are plenty broken without the PrC.Spiked chains are one of the VERY few exotic weapons that are worth taking. There are SIMPLE weapons better than most exotic weapons.

Why in the Realms would you spend a feat on kamas, for Io's sake? Daggers are better, and nearly everyone is proficient with them already.

This appears to be a case of melee-can't-have-nice-things.

Machiavellian
2010-05-26, 11:57 AM
Spiked chains are one of the VERY few exotic weapons that are worth taking. There are SIMPLE weapons better than most exotic weapons.

Why in the Realms would you spend a feat on kamas, for Io's sake? Daggers are better, and nearly everyone is proficient with them already.

This appears to be a case of melee-can't-have-nice-things.

Bastard Sword? Bastard Sword + Shield = Win

Spinning Sword? Better damage than Spiked Chain, and is cool in looks to boot

and my personal fave: Dwarven Waraxe??? It's great for anyone who melees.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-26, 12:03 PM
Bastard Sword? Bastard Sword + Shield = WinYou're better skipping the feat and using it two-handed. THF is, 95% of the time, flat-out better than S&B, due to AC rarely mattering much, animated shields for shield properties, and the massive increase in damage dealt by people with good Strength. The other 10% of the time is split between massive specialization in the S&B style and ToB. The first requires lots of feats and doesn't kick in for a long time, whereas the second is due to maneuvers. THF only requires a good Strength score, Power Attack, and maybe one or two other feats if you want to go for overkill.


Spinning Sword? Better damage than Spiked Chain, and is cool in looks to bootI never said spiked chain was the only good one, but there aren't many others that are. Spinning sword is one of them.


and my personal fave: Dwarven Waraxe??? It's great for anyone who melees.Use it two handed. It's much more efficient and deals a helluvalot more damage.

Machiavellian
2010-05-26, 12:05 PM
You're better skipping the feat and using it two-handed. THF is, 95% of the time, flat-out better than S&B, due to AC rarely mattering much and the massive increase in damage dealt by people with good Strength. The other 10% of the time is split between massive specialization in the S&B style and ToB. The first requires lots of feats and doesn't kick in for a long time, whereas the second is due to maneuvers. THF only requires a good Strength score, Power Attack, and maybe one or two other feats if you want to go for overkill.

I never said spiked chain was the only good one, but there aren't many others that are. Spinning sword is one of them.

Use it two handed. It's much more efficient and deals a helluvalot more damage.

what about halflings, gnomes, and kobolds? What about the short guy with a piddly strenght?

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-26, 12:08 PM
what about halflings, gnomes, and kobolds? What about the short guy with a piddly strenght?They're fine. Get a high Strength and go Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper, or go Mounted Combat with Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and a lance, a sneakster TWF sneak attacker (best with simple weapons unless you can get an exotic weapon that enhances sneak attacking), or again, ToB.

It's still better to Power Attack than S&B with small characters, if that's what you want to do. -2 to Strength and 1d8 -> 1d6 weapon damage don't matter when you're doing +24 damage for every point of Power Attack you've got invested.

Draz74
2010-05-26, 01:36 PM
More to the point, even if you do want to go Sword & Board (i.e. use a shield), it's still not worth a feat to get proficiency in the Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe. Just use a Longsword or Battleaxe. You will deal one less damage per hit, on average. Meh.

Spending a feat to get +1 damage to your attacks is a terrible idea.

Machiavellian
2010-05-26, 01:38 PM
More to the point, even if you do want to go Sword & Board (i.e. use a shield), it's still not worth a feat to get proficiency in the Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe. Just use a Longsword or Battleaxe. You will deal one less damage per hit, on average. Meh.

Spending a feat to get +1 damage to your attacks is a terrible idea.

Unless you are Human. Then you have a feat to kill.

Greenish
2010-05-26, 01:44 PM
Unless you are Human. Then you have a feat to kill.Oh, don't be silly. An extra feat doesn't make investing a feat on one higher average damage a good idea.

Spiryt
2010-05-26, 01:50 PM
Unless you are Human. Then you have a feat to kill.

Why not kill it for Iron Will?

If you have to kill it on something connected with weapon, Weapon Focus is better, even if still pretty poor.

Machiavellian
2010-05-26, 01:50 PM
Oh, don't be silly. An extra feat doesn't make investing a feat on one higher average damage a good idea.

Well, one could dip into samurai and voila. Proficiency in Bastard Sword.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-26, 01:51 PM
Well, one could dip into samurai and voila. Proficiency in Bastard Sword.If that's all you want it for, go master of masks and gain proficiency in ALL exotic weapons.

You're still wasting resources on a vastly inferior strategy.

Machiavellian
2010-05-26, 01:55 PM
If that's all you want it for, go master of masks and gain proficiency in ALL exotic weapons.

You're still wasting resources on a vastly inferior strategy.

I LIKE THE BASTARD SWORD, DAMNIT

Spiryt
2010-05-26, 01:58 PM
I LIKE THE BASTARD SWORD, DAMNIT

So?

Take the longsword and call it "bastard sword".

Whole weapon system in 3.5 is crappy and unbalanced, so there's no reason to stick to it too much at all.

Draz74
2010-05-26, 01:59 PM
Unless you are Human. Then you have a feat to kill.
Give me any character concept, I can come up with at least 30 good feats for it.

Wow, you're Human. So now you get to pick eight of those thirty rather than seven. How, exactly, does that justify picking a terrible, awful feat for one of them?

Feats are a very valuable resource.


Well, one could dip into samurai and voila. Proficiency in Bastard Sword.
That's a terrible way to spend a level for most builds. For argument's sake I'll pretend you said, "What if you're a Dwarf and get free proficiency with the Dwarven Waraxe?"

In that case, yes, obviously my advice about using a Battleaxe instead no longer applies. Take the +1 damage that your already-good race gives you as an added bonus. I played a Dwarf Rogue/Fighter with a Waraxe and a Spiked Shield a couple characters ago, and it worked well.

That doesn't invalidate the point that you were originally arguing against: most exotic weapons (including possibly all exotic weapons in the SRD except the Spiked Chain) aren't worth spending a feat on.


I LIKE THE BASTARD SWORD, DAMNIT

Ah, that's really the crux of the issue, now, isn't it? Good that we've cleared that up, so that you're no longer making ridiculous claims that the Bastard Sword is actually a good choice for most characters.

In this case you've got a few choices.


Use the bastard sword 2-handed and Power Attack. It's worse than a Greatsword, but not much, and at least you didn't take any crappy feats.
Spend a feat on Bastard Sword proficiency and fight with it one-handed. Knock yourself out. Nobody has a problem with you doing this as long as you don't try to pretend that it's actually a strong choice. In my aforementioned Dwarf character's campaign, this was the party Fighter's style, and in practice it didn't really end up mattering that he used weak tactics. He was still able to contribute to the campaign just fine.
Use a longsword and re-fluff it as a Bastard Sword, as the post above mentioned.
Play a Samurai ... and, if you don't want to suck, look up Shneekey's tricks that turn Intimidate into a game-breaking weapon.
Use other tricks that make the Bastard Sword suck a little less. For example, a Warblade can get decent damage output even with a crappy weapon, and can switch his Exotic Weapon Proficiency to any exotic weapon he wants. Or an Exotic Weapon Master can at least pick up a couple cool tricks that can only be used with exotic weapons.

Greenish
2010-05-26, 02:35 PM
I LIKE THE BASTARD SWORD, DAMNITWhat's the difference between a bastard sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_sword#Bastard_swords) and a longsword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword)?

Spiryt
2010-05-26, 02:35 PM
What's the difference between a bastard sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_sword#Bastard_swords) and a longsword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword)?

"Longsword" is mainly one handed weapon in D&D. :smalltongue:

Lateral
2010-05-26, 02:55 PM
When one of my players in a game wants to play a S&B character, I usually let them have autoproficiency with BS or DWA as long as their focus stays on S&B, just cause they could use it and it doesn't unbalance the game at all.
What's the difference between a bastard sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_sword#Bastard_swords) and a longsword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword)?

In real life? None. In D&D (and by extension many other fantasy games), a bastard sword refers to a weapon more like real longswords, which were used twohandedly more readily than singlehanded, while longswords refer to shorter, one-handed double-edged slashing swords such as spathae or arming swords.("short swords" are swords used primarily for stabbing, reminiscent of gladii.) So, to recap: Bastard swords = longswords, longswords = spathae or arming swords, and short swords = gladii.

hamishspence
2010-05-26, 02:57 PM
"Longsword" is mainly one handed weapon in D&D. :smalltongue:

Yes- the D&D weapon is probably closer to the "arming sword"- longer than a short sword, can be wielded in two hands, but normally wielded in one hand, with a shield.

Spiryt
2010-05-26, 03:04 PM
Yes- the D&D weapon is probably closer to the "arming sword"- longer than a short sword, can be wielded in two hands, but normally wielded in one hand, with a shield.

And was most probably just called 'sword' trough the middle ages, mostly because there aren't anything that could be called "short" sword (or "long" for that matter). :smallwink:

And most classic medieval age swords aren't very suitable for two handed grab.

hamishspence
2010-05-26, 03:13 PM
Maybe in very late Roman Britain both would have been present, the long Saxon sword, and the short Roman gladius?

Spiryt
2010-05-26, 03:21 PM
Maybe in very late Roman Britain both would have been present, the long Saxon sword, and the short Roman gladius?

I'm not really expert, but in very late Roman Britain classical gladius won't be present anymore AFAIK.

And long Saxon sword won't be so very similar to classical medieval sword.

Anyway if you just want 35 -39 inches long sword used roughly like medieval swords with shorter stuff used similar to gladius, you will find many perfect examples in Celtic lands for example.

Although again, they won't be very similar in character, even due to lack of metal pommels and guards.

Maybe similar handlings were sometimes achieved, but that's really question for say, Peter Johnsson, not for silly D&D use.

hamishspence
2010-05-26, 03:31 PM
Arms & Equipment Guide suggests that the sword categories are generalizations:

"A claymore is a zweihander is a no-dachi- a greatsword by any other name would cut as deep"

Spiryt
2010-05-26, 03:36 PM
Arms & Equipment Guide suggests that the sword categories are generalizations:

"A claymore is a zweihander is a no-dachi- a greatsword by any other name would cut as deep"

Unless it was thrusting great sword... oh wait, D&D. :smallwink:

hamishspence
2010-05-26, 03:47 PM
Elven courtblade might be the nearest equivalent. Exotic, two handed sword, piercing/slashing damage, good crit range.

Eldariel
2010-05-26, 03:57 PM
If you are refering to the spinning sword, it is found in Secrets of Sarlona

Spinning Sword has the issue that it doesn't have the Trip Attack, though. That and it's one-handed as opposed to Light so TWFing with it takes an extra feat, though it does make it Power Attackable (but at that point you should just take Spiked Chain).

Lateral
2010-05-28, 04:24 PM
Hey, are there any exotic weapons that are exotic because they deal, like, 1d20 damage?

true_shinken
2010-05-28, 04:28 PM
Master of Chains isn't bad (though it has alignment restriction of "non-good" for whatever reason)
I believe the reason is the connection with kytons. Masters of Chains even get fear-inducing abilities, don't they? They are kyton-wannabes.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 04:29 PM
Hey, are there any exotic weapons that are exotic because they deal, like, 1d20 damage?Exotic weapons have either slightly better damage, slightly better crit range or slightly better crit modifier (or some special quality).

Highest damage exotic weapons are 3d6 (for medium creatures), as far as I know.

Escheton
2010-05-28, 04:41 PM
if you want an extra trip against an opponent in reach in exchange for the improved trip follow up attack take the feat Curling wave strike from stormwrack.
Or take knockdown and a glaive.
Halberds and steadfast boots are great.
Ranseur...uhm...no...just no

Draz74
2010-05-28, 04:42 PM
Highest damage exotic weapons are 3d6 (for medium creatures), as far as I know.

Which is ... the exact same average damage as 1d20, so the answer to the query is essentially "yes."

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-28, 05:04 PM
Highest damage exotic weapons are 3d6 (for medium creatures), as far as I know.

You mean gold (heavy) weapons from Faerun? :smallconfused: