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Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 04:32 PM
This is somewhat a consolidation of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153744) three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153742) threads. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153740)
So yeah.
I'm making a spellsword character, and I need some help. Here is what I have so far:
Human
Battle Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5
Ability scores:
Strength 15
Dexterity 17
Constitution 14
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 10
Charisma 18
Feats:
{table=head]Level|Feats Gained
1|Born Hero, Negotiator, Dodge, Mobility
3|Eschew Materials
6|Improved Toughness
9|Combat Casting
12|Battle Caster
15|Arcane Strike
18|Empower Spell[/table]
Any other suggestions?
-Xavez

Eronai_Jantig
2010-05-25, 04:48 PM
Are those your starting scores? Also your going Fighter first level for the bonus feat/hit die increase right?

Godskook
2010-05-25, 04:59 PM
I...but...you're doing it....ARGhgoaigpaokwobgnaow..........

Find a happy place, find a happy place, find a happy place.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-25, 05:17 PM
Why do you have more than one level of Spellsword? Loosing 4 caster levels is not worth anything you could possibly gain...

Jarian
2010-05-25, 05:23 PM
I...but...you're doing it....ARGhgoaigpaokwobgnaow..........


This is very likely to be the general theme of most responses you get. Are you willing to tweak your build slightly while still maintaining the martial caster theme? Because, you know... Abjurant Champion, etc.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 05:25 PM
Why do you have more than one level of Spellsword? Loosing 4 caster levels is not worth anything you could possibly gain...

I am building my character to do some combat and some spellcasting, as well as wear armor without spell failure chances. And it is better to give up 4 caster levels than to lose all of them by switching to fighter, and I don't like the eldritch knight.
-Xavez

Mongoose87
2010-05-25, 05:26 PM
Would you be willing to only take one level of Spellsword, switch around a bunch of your feats, and feel the Pwnage that is Abjurant Champion?

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 05:26 PM
Are those your starting scores? Also your going Fighter first level for the bonus feat/hit die increase right?

As well as weapon/armor proficiencies for the spellsword.
-Xavez

Eronai_Jantig
2010-05-25, 05:32 PM
Good, okay, unlike some of the others I fully understand why you'd hit the spell sword as a choice, let me see if I can whip something up, also I do need to know if those are starting or final scores, and whats up with the commoner thing? I'm assuming the Born Hero is a bonus feat?

Edit: Though I fully admit, going spell sword is suboptimal, it can be fun.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-25, 05:33 PM
My advice: Go Full Elf or Human, instead of half-elf, as this will make a lot of things easier for you. Class progression should go something like this: Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 5/EK+7/Whatever 1

Feats
1st: Otherwordly
(H: Power Attack)
3th: Sanctum Spell
6th: Combat Casting
9th: Extend Spell
12th+: Something along the lines of Persistent Spell or something that'll boost Power Attack for fun and profit.

This is pretty standard gish stuff. You could go the Sorcadin route, going Paladin 2/Sorcerer X, where X is enough to meet the spell requirements of Sacred Exorcist/Sacred Exorcist Y/Abjurant Champion 5. Grab a devotion feat or two and enjoy yourself.

Now, if you must have Spellsword on the table, I recommend using the first build stub, grab some Dodge-variant feat and use the Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will, take a level of Dragonslayer to qualify for Spellsword, then take no more than 3 levels of Spellsword.


Will link a handbook later.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 05:34 PM
Would you be willing to only take one level of Spellsword, switch around a bunch of your feats, and feel the Pwnage that is Abjurant Champion?

What is Abjurant Champion?
-Xavez

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-25, 05:36 PM
What is Abjurant Champion?
-Xavez

Short answer: Awesome.

Longer answer: A five level long PrC from Complete Mage that is 5/5 casting, Good BAB, d10 HD, and class abilities that boost AC granting spells.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 05:36 PM
My advice: Go Full Elf or Human, instead of half-elf, as this will make a lot of things easier for you. Class progression should go something like this: Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 5/EK+7/Whatever 1

Feats
1st: Otherwordly
(H: Power Attack)
3th: Sanctum Spell
6th: Combat Casting
9th: Extend Spell
12th+: Something along the lines of Persistent Spell or something that'll boost Power Attack for fun and profit.

This is pretty standard gish stuff. You could go the Sorcadin route, going Paladin 2/Sorcerer X, where X is enough to meet the spell requirements of Sacred Exorcist/Sacred Exorcist Y/Abjurant Champion 5. Grab a devotion feat or two and enjoy yourself.

Now, if you must have Spellsword on the table, I recommend using the first build stub, grab some Dodge-variant feat and use the Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will, take a level of Dragonslayer to qualify for Spellsword, then take no more than 3 levels of Spellsword.


Will link a handbook later.

Because of campaign-specific rules, first 10 levels must be one class. And my character is somewhat based on negotiating, so I want my half-elf.
-Xavez

Mongoose87
2010-05-25, 05:37 PM
Abjurant Champion is a PrC found in Complete Mage. It has 5/5 spellcasting, full BaB and a d10 HD. It also gives you some nice abilities, like casting Abjurantion spells as a quick action.v It's a must for any Arcane Gish, really.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-25, 05:38 PM
Because of campaign-specific rules, first 10 levels must be one class. And my character is somewhat based on negotiating, so I want my half-elf.
-Xavez

Okay, then give me a minute to find a link to something that can actually work with 10 levels of Sorcerer while retaining at least 16 BAB pre-epic.

Truly this is something to fear. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8544775&postcount=5)

EDIT: As for the negotiating, I can only give one word: spells.

tyckspoon
2010-05-25, 05:39 PM
I am building my character to do some combat and some spellcasting, as well as wear armor without spell failure chances. And it is better to give up 4 caster levels than to lose all of them by switching to fighter, and I don't like the eldritch knight.
-Xavez

A mithral Breastplate is wearable with 0% spell failure at Spellsword 3, if you can't manage to get one of the armor templates to take that other 5% off for you. There's no reason to take Spellsword any higher than that unless you're obsessed about getting 0% failure full plate, and honestly, with Dex as your highest physical score you probably will do better with the breastplate. That'd open up 6 levels to use on.. probably Abjurant Champion, since you're already considering taking Combat Casting.

If you're ok with saccing that many caster levels, tho.. have you considered Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)?

Godskook
2010-05-25, 05:46 PM
I am building my character to do some combat and some spellcasting, as well as wear armor without spell failure chances. And it is better to give up 4 caster levels than to lose all of them by switching to fighter, and I don't like the eldritch knight.
-Xavez

Try a Sorcadin.

Base: Sorc 4/Pal 2(any order, really)

Prestige: Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

You can replace Sacred Exorcist with any other decent full-caster prestige class, but good luck finding a better one.

Notables:
-9th level spellcasting by L20
-16 BAB, enabling all four BAB attacks by L20, losing BAB twice during sorc levels and twice again during SE levels(When you're gaining turning and high level spells, so oh well)
-Cha to saves
-Arcane Preperation gets you Greater Luminous Armor, which is 1.Full Plate, 2.An Abjuration, 3.Gives a -4 to melee attacks against you.
-Turning for divine might or travel devotion
-Ability to get Cha to AC with 2 feats(Improved unarmed strike + Ascetic Mage). Since you never actually wear armor(GLA for the win!), this stacks.
-Possibility of persistent Mirror Move, for up to four free fighter feats from core(So you can qualify for a Heroics(Shock Trooper) without spending feats on Power Attack).

Ok, I'm done.

Adds a bit of holy warrior to the mix, but if that's the only problem with it, I can find other, non-Sorcadin gish builds for you to look at, ones that do gish well.


Because of campaign-specific rules, first 10 levels must be one class. And my character is somewhat based on negotiating, so I want my half-elf.
-Xavez

Ok, I missed this. This sucks. Your DM has gimped gish builds into near-dust. However, the above build still 'works', just with 6 levels less of Sacred Exorcist, which were entirely pre-epic filler.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 05:47 PM
A mithral Breastplate is wearable with 0% spell failure at Spellsword 3, if you can't manage to get one of the armor templates to take that other 5% off for you. There's no reason to take Spellsword any higher than that unless you're obsessed about getting 0% failure full plate, and honestly, with Dex as your highest physical score you probably will do better with the breastplate. That'd open up 6 levels to use on.. probably Abjurant Champion, since you're already considering taking Combat Casting.

If you're ok with saccing that many caster levels, tho.. have you considered Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)?

First: I really want somebody to give me a link for the Abjurant Champion. I've only gotten a generic description so far, and I don't think the DM will let me by with that. But you have a good point. Until I get Mithral Breastplate, I'll go with studded leather.
Thank you for your input,
Xavez

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 05:49 PM
Try a Sorcadin.

Base: Sorc 4/Pal 2(any order, really)

Prestige: Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

You can replace Sacred Exorcist with any other decent full-caster prestige class, but good luck finding a better one.

Notables:
-9th level spellcasting by L20
-16 BAB, enabling all four BAB attacks by L20, losing BAB twice during sorc levels and twice again during SE levels(When you're gaining turning and high level spells, so oh well)
-Cha to saves
-Arcane Preperation gets you Greater Luminous Armor, which is 1.Full Plate, 2.An Abjuration, 3.Gives a -4 to melee attacks against you.
-Turning for divine might or travel devotion
-Ability to get Cha to AC with 2 feats(Improved unarmed strike + Ascetic Mage). Since you never actually wear armor(GLA for the win!), this stacks.
-Possibility of persistent Mirror Move, for up to four free fighter feats from core(So you can qualify for a Heroics(Shock Trooper) without spending feats on Power Attack).

Ok, I'm done.

Adds a bit of holy warrior to the mix, but if that's the only problem with it, I can find other, non-Sorcadin gish builds for you to look at, ones that do gish well.

First: what is gish?

Second: I have to take my first 10 levels in one class because of campaign-specific rules.
-Xavez

Dr.Epic
2010-05-25, 05:52 PM
Half-elf? Really? I mean why not go human: you get bonus feats and more skill points as opposed to half-elves who just get some skill bonuses you could easily compensate for with your extra feat and/or skill points.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-25, 05:54 PM
First: what is gish?

Second: I have to take my first 10 levels in one class because of campaign-specific rules.
-Xavez

1) Gish is a 'does both fighting and magic' build, leftover from a mis-prounciation of 'Gith' referring to the fact that 1e Githyanki and Githzeri did both magic (before they were psionic) and fighting very well.

2) What if it is only a five-level prestige class? Can you go Sorc/Fighter/AbChamp5/Spellsword1?

Jarian
2010-05-25, 05:57 PM
Because of campaign-specific rules, first 10 levels must be one class. And my character is somewhat based on negotiating, so I want my half-elf.
-Xavez

Less likely to work option:Dragonwrought Wyrm Of War Desert Kobold
Sorcerer10/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 4

Wyrm of War to avoid Loredrake controversy, though your DM has to be okay with Dragonwrought kobolds qualifying for Sovereign Archetypes for this to work. Wyrm of War grants full proficiency with all martial weapons and all types of armor, and gives you a bonus fighter or draconic-themed feat every 5 levels.

More likely to work option:Changeling Wizard 10/Fighter 1/Runesmith 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3

Changelings have to be the best face characters ever. I highly recommend playing one over a *shudder* half-elf.

Take the feat in Races of Eberron that allows you to qualify as a member of whatever race you choose to emulate. Emulate a Dwarf. You now qualify for Runesmith without being an ugly Dwarf.

Wizards work much better than Sorcerers with a Runesmith, but you could play a Sorcerer if you really wanted to.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 05:58 PM
Half-elf? Really? I mean why not go human: you get bonus feats and more skill points as opposed to half-elves who just get some skill bonuses you could easily compensate for with your extra feat and/or skill points.

I'm going for a character who is good with defeating foes, but even better at gaining allies.
-Xavez

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 06:01 PM
Less likely to work option:Dragonwrought Wyrm Of War Desert Kobold
Sorcerer10/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 4

Wyrm of War to avoid Loredrake controversy, though your DM has to be okay with Dragonwrought kobolds qualifying for Sovereign Archetypes for this to work. Wyrm of War grants full proficiency with all martial weapons and all types of armor, and gives you a bonus fighter or draconic-themed feat every 5 levels.

More likely to work option:Changeling Wizard 10/Fighter 1/Runesmith 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3

Changelings have to be the best face characters ever. I highly recommend playing one over a *shudder* half-elf.

Take the feat in Races of Eberron that allows you to qualify as a member of whatever race you choose to emulate. Emulate a Dwarf. You now qualify for Runesmith without being an ugly Dwarf.

Wizards work much better than Sorcerers with a Runesmith, but you could play a Sorcerer if you really wanted to.

First: I don't think the DM will allow Kobolds or Changelings in a Commoner campaign. We eventually retrain our commoner levels for other NPC classes, and then retrain those in to PC classes.

Second: Half-Elves are a balanced race along with other races, but most PCs rarely use Diplomacy or Gather Information.
-Xavez

Jarian
2010-05-25, 06:03 PM
What does race have to do with being a poor-as-dirt Commoner? :smallconfused:

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 06:11 PM
What does race have to do with being a poor-as-dirt Commoner? :smallconfused:

Because I don't think a Dragonwrought War Wyrm Kobold would be living in a farming village. I'll ask the DM.
-Xavez

Eronai_Jantig
2010-05-25, 06:12 PM
First Abjurant Champion is from Complete Mage. Also a note on armor and such. I like wearing Full-Plate for reasons of awesome. It's kinda badass to be a caster wearing full plate with no issues. The way to do this in my outline is this. You get 10% reduced by being a Spellsword, then 10% from having it made from Mithril, then 10% from it being enchanted with Twilight (BoED, PH2, MIC), then enhance it with Thistledown Padding (5% reduction addition of Armor Check Penalty) which is from Races of the Wild if I remember correctly, it's also the easiest to get by your DM.

And yes, if the Book of Exalted Deeds is fully open, Greater Luminous Armor is the best thing for you, it's literally better than armor. However, you can use both for both awesomeness, and optimalness.

Fighter 1/Sorcerer 10/Abjurant Champion 5/SpellSword 1/Something that increases spell-casting and BaB all the way.

Reasoning behind this:
The AC boost and no losing caster levels you will see from Abjurant Champion is worth more than that of your limited per day move action to channel spell ability. You gain that ability back by utilizing a Quicken Spell + Smiting Spell metamagic'd spell along with Rapid Metamagic. Yeah your expending high level slots, but its worth it, because now you can as a swift action, cast say, Combust (Spell Compendium) and do at least 10d8 damage by time you can cast it.

Since you'll be using the Shield spell (Which is not only lasts longer and is faster to cast, but adds more to your AC because of your levels in Abjurant Champion.) it becomes pointless to have a shield, thus I suggest a Great Sword.

I also suggest getting to 9th level spells, find some way to boost your caster level to 22, become a solar, and profit. As thats what I'm doing on my gish.

Ways to do this?
Items:
Ring of Arcane Might: 20,000 (Magic Item Compendium), +1 To arcane caster level.
Orange Ioun Stone: 30,000, +1 To caster level.

Spells:
Spell Enhancer: Level 4, swift action, +2 Caster Level

Other thoughts:

Useful spells:
Dragonskin (Spell Compendium), +5 Nat AC by level 10, becomes redundant when you can become a solar, unless it stacks, I'm not sure if it does.

Orb of Force (Spell Compendium), bread and butter sorcerer spell, even if your not a blaster build. You can hit pretty much anything with 10d6 damage.

Dimension Door, hey, at later levels you can pop it as a swift at the end of your action if need be (At the end because after use, it will end your action, no Dim Door to flank full actions unfortunately.)

Combust (Spell Compendium) already mentioned it, its fire damage, level 2, and a good idea to arcane thesis(PH2 feat) to lower the spell level when metamagic.

I suggest getting items to enhance your ability scores going in this order: CHA, STR, DEX, CON

Jarian
2010-05-25, 06:12 PM
Unlocking the latent powers of your heritage, etc, etc.

Changeling is, admittedly, easier to explain.

AmberVael
2010-05-25, 06:20 PM
It's in Complete Mage. As such, it is copyrighted information. There is no authorized source that can be linked to.

Also, calm down.

Mongoose87
2010-05-25, 06:21 PM
Screaming

I don't think it's available for free online, within the limits of the law.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-05-25, 06:21 PM
And yeah, I told you at the beginning of the post where you can find it, sorry it's not online.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 06:26 PM
Sorry. Please excuse me for screaming.
-Xavez

QuantumSteve
2010-05-25, 06:54 PM
Spellsword is a 4 level class. once you get Channel Spell there's no reason to stick around.

Sor10/Ftr1/SpSw4/AbjCh5 would work just fine with a H-Elf. You could replace AbjCh with Eldritch Knight, but you would lose out on 9th level spells and a lot of good abilities, namely 20 BaB with Practiced SpellCaster and a Swift Shield for +9 AC is pretty good too. So, find a copy CM and check out this class.

Duskblade from PHII is also viable, no high level spells, but you get Armored Mage, Quick Cast, and Arcane Channeling.

Bard10/Sublime Chord10 (from Complete Arcane) may be a bit different than what your looking for, but you get 9th level spells plus some interesting bard songs.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-05-25, 07:03 PM
Well the question is really if you want the three per day from spell sword, or use the Quicken/Smiting spell ability with Rapid Metamagic instead. You could of course do both. The caster levels are pretty important though.

Also I don't think the Martial Arcanist Ability works that way.


Martial Arcanist (Ex): At 5th level, you master the art
of combining your militant and mystical training. From
this point on, your caster level in a chosen arcane spellcasting
class is equal to your base attack bonus (unless it would
otherwise be higher). For example, a 7th-level fighter/1st-level
wizard/5th-level abjurant champion has a base attack bonus of
+12 (and thus a caster level of 12th). You can apply this benefit
to only one arcane class to which you have added spellcasting
levels by your advancement as an abjurant champion.

I'm pretty sure your applying it backwards. However it is a possible RAW vs RAI.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 07:16 PM
Spellsword is a 4 level class. once you get Channel Spell there's no reason to stick around.

Sor10/Ftr1/SpSw4/AbjCh5 would work just fine with a H-Elf. You could replace AbjCh with Eldritch Knight, but you would lose out on 9th level spells and a lot of good abilities, namely 20 BaB with Practiced SpellCaster and a Swift Shield for +9 AC is pretty good too. So, find a copy CM and check out this class.

Duskblade from PHII is also viable, no high level spells, but you get Armored Mage, Quick Cast, and Arcane Channeling.

Bard10/Sublime Chord10 (from Complete Arcane) may be a bit different than what your looking for, but you get 9th level spells plus some interesting bard songs.

Now there is a good idea. Are there any feats which get me more channel spells per day?
-Xavez

Eronai_Jantig
2010-05-25, 07:28 PM
Now there is a good idea. Are there any feats which get me more channel spells per day?
-Xavez

No, which is why I suggested picking up Arcane Thesis (Players Handbook 2) on a lower level touch spell such as Shocking Grasp (Level 1, maxes at 5d6 Lightening) or Combust (Level 2, maxes at 10d8 Fire) which will reduce you metamagic effects by 1 level each (But doesn't go below level 0). So with Quicken Spell and Shocking Spell (Players Handbook 2) that makes your Shocking Grasp a Level 6 Spell, leaving room for Empower or Maximize (Actually both is possible as well, 8th level slot), or your Combust as a level 7 spell with the possiblity of both Empower or Maximize (Or once again, both at a 9th level slot.).

You can cast as many times as you have slots.

Edit: Remember you need, Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage) for this to be effective.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 07:37 PM
No, which is why I suggested picking up Arcane Thesis (Players Handbook 2) on a lower level touch spell such as Shocking Grasp (Level 1, maxes at 5d6 Lightening) or Combust (Level 2, maxes at 10d8 Fire) which will reduce you metamagic effects by 1 level each (But doesn't go below level 0). So with Quicken Spell and Shocking Spell (Players Handbook 2) that makes your Shocking Grasp a Level 6 Spell, leaving room for Empower or Maximize (Actually both is possible as well, 8th level slot), or your Combust as a level 7 spell with the possiblity of both Empower or Maximize (Or once again, both at a 9th level slot.).

You can cast as many times as you have slots.

Edit: Remember you need, Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage) for this to be effective.

I think that I'll use Channel Spell for more powerful spells (i.e. disintegrate) and use arcane strike when I don't want to waste a channel spell.
-Xavez

Eronai_Jantig
2010-05-25, 07:43 PM
If you really want to go that path, remember to boost your Spell DC to the point where nothing is going to hit it, to many times I've faced things that I just couldn't touch with save DCs, as a gish your simply not built for it. With the other spells your only problem is spell resistance and energy immunity.

Edit: Don't forget, your also losing out on becoming this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm

Godskook
2010-05-25, 07:44 PM
First: what is gish?

Second: I have to take my first 10 levels in one class because of campaign-specific rules.
-Xavez

1.Reposting:




Because of campaign-specific rules, first 10 levels must be one class. And my character is somewhat based on negotiating, so I want my half-elf.
-Xavez

Ok, I missed this. This sucks. Your DM has gimped gish builds into near-dust. However, the above build still 'works', just with 6 levels less of Sacred Exorcist, which were entirely pre-epic filler.

2.Gish = caster+martial build that mixes the two for effective combat.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 07:45 PM
If you really want to go that path, remember to boost your Spell DC to the point where nothing is going to hit it, to many times I've faced things that I just couldn't touch with save DCs, as a gish your simply not built for it. With the other spells your only problem is spell resistance and energy immunity.

You mean people who easily beat your spell save DCs?
-Xavez

Eronai_Jantig
2010-05-25, 07:48 PM
You mean people who easily beat your spell save DCs?
-Xavez

Not really just people, monsters, whatever. The guys you are going to want to hit with that massive 40d6 damage spike? Probably have high saves in general, their low saves won't be bad, they'll be in the 20s. Even if you have 30 CHA at that point, which I doubt, your DC is only 26 without feating for it, and I'm not sure it's worth it.

Don't forget, your also losing out on becoming this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm

Edit: Unless your DM throws easy stuff at you. But generally they try to avoid being destroyed by such things.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-25, 07:54 PM
Not really just people, monsters, whatever. The guys you are going to want to hit with that massive 40d6 damage spike? Probably have high saves in general, their low saves won't be bad, they'll be in the 20s. Even if you have 30 CHA at that point, which I doubt, your DC is only 26 without feating for it, and I'm not sure it's worth it.

Don't forget, your also losing out on becoming this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm

Edit: Unless your DM throws easy stuff at you. But generally they try to avoid being destroyed by such things.

I think I'll switch out the improved buckler defense for either spell focus or spell penetration. Which one should I choose.
-Xavez

Eronai_Jantig
2010-05-25, 08:06 PM
I wouldn't take either, since your not going to be effective either way. But, if I actually have to choose, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration is easily bested via Assay Spell Resistance a swift cast spell that gives you a +10 to overcoming spell resistance to one target.

I want to point out once again about the Solar thing, is there any reason you don't want to become one?

Also, I suggest getting rid of Lightning Reflexes too, it's worthless.

Edit: And Weapon focus, and Improved Toughness

herrhauptmann
2010-05-25, 09:09 PM
Second: Half-Elves are a balanced race along with other races, but most PCs rarely use Diplomacy or Gather Information.
-Xavez

The +2 on diplomacy and gather info you get is a poor reason to play halfelf. Even if you dump skill points into those skills, you could be better served by playing say, a dwarf who has those as class skills.
Could I suggest skipping that, and doing your gather info and diplomacy with some very heavy roleplaying? I don't know your DM's style, but he seems to houserule some things, so he might even hand out easier DCs on the skill checks, than if you do it this way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0710.html).
The advantage to abjurant champion (not sure if it's been stated) is that you get to add your Abj Champ level to the Armor boost granted by any abjuration spell you cast. So after 5 levels of AbjCham, shield gets you +9 AC. Unfortunately, there's not many such spells in the game, so you'll need to work with your DM to research new ones. (Luminous armor in BoED is nice, but has some drawbacks. Among them, I think it's for preparation casters only)
Here's another gishy PrC called Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) from Eberron. Loses only 1 CL, grants full BAB, but only good Fort saves, so even with a high dex, your final reflex save will be in the gutter.

Hmmm... instead of starting as a commoner (I did read that correctly, didn't I?). Would your DM let you start play with levels in a Paragon Class from Unearthed Arcana instead? Instead of being a commoner 1, you're Half-elf 1. The paragon classes actually give the different races real bonuses to their fluff from the PHB. Like it will give you diplomacy as a class skill. Also, after taking halfelf paragon, you can choose which side of your ancestry to improve/honor, elf or human paragon (not both). I had a character make very good use of dwarf paragon, but that doesn't mean it's always the most optimal of choices.
Racial Paragon is only a 3 level class, which does not contribute to multiclass penalties. It will also end with a bonus feat and a stat boost.

Pluto
2010-05-25, 10:35 PM
As soon as you lose 2 CL, straight Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) (UA) becomes a better option [in place of whatever's costing you those CL], entering Abjurant Champion as soon as possible. Given your 10 level rule, I wouldn't hesitate. Take Battle Caster (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Caster,all) (CArc) if you must have heavier armor.

It's hardly the perfect gish, but it has 20/20 casting, 16/20 BA, it's a competent melee fighter for 20/20 levels and it only uses 2 classes (which is often its biggest draw).

[/my 2c]

Endarire
2010-05-26, 12:46 AM
The main point of a gish is to use buffs to augment yourself then promptly kill things with a Big, Painful Weapon (tm).

A Trancer (from my Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) guide) does this well. Lots of damage and arcane spells to support you in other cases.

Also see the Chain Shirt, Casterfied in Shoppin' in the Hood. No ASF or ACP for 2200G.

Jeff240sx
2010-05-26, 10:26 AM
Why are we stuck on armor?
Greater Luminous Armor + Abjurant Champion > any armor created. +13AC (+17AC vs melee).
Polymorph + (Contingent) Scintilating Scales > any armor created. +15 or more NA now counting as touch AC? Yes please.
Shield Spell + AbChamp > Improved Buckler Defense. +9 shield AC? Om nom nom.

You're a gish, not a fighter.
Use a glamer spell (Alter Self) to give the knightly-armor illusion. Then don't touch anyone, or let them touch you - lest they get a will save. Only things with Arcane Sight, True Seeing, or touching you should ever get a save against your armored appearance.


AbChamp is a good class by it's lonesome, with full BAB and casting. But adding class levels to Abjuration spell AC bonuses gives you a BASE of 32AC + dex from Abjuration's Shield and Greater Luminous Armor.
Shapeshift into something with huge natural armor - like a Horned Demon, for +19. Have your Contingency crafted as "When I Shapeshift into a Horned Demon" for Scintillating Scales to go off.. +19 more AC, bringing you to 51 +DEX. Flat-footed, 51. Touch - 42 +DEX.
Armor? luls.

I'd go Sorc10 / Fighter 1 / Spellsword 4 / AbChamp 5. It's not ideal, but with the 10 level houserule it's the best you've got.

You do need to ditch the Familiar for Rapid Metamagic and grab the basic Metas. And Arcane Strike. And Knowledge Devotion.
And Natural Spell *ducks*.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-26, 01:42 PM
As soon as you lose 2 CL, straight Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) (UA) becomes a better option [in place of whatever's costing you those CL], entering Abjurant Champion as soon as possible. Given your 10 level rule, I wouldn't hesitate. Take Battle Caster (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Caster,all) (CArc) if you must have heavier armor.

It's hardly the perfect gish, but it has 20/20 casting, 16/20 BA, it's a competent melee fighter for 20/20 levels and it only uses 2 classes (which is often its biggest draw).

[/my 2c]

So my levels would be Battle Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5? Do those grant any bonus feats and at what levels?
-Xavez

Greenish
2010-05-26, 02:08 PM
So my levels would be Battle Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5? Do those grant any bonus feats and at what levels?
-XavezHmm, since you need to take 10 levels of base class, and assumedly want to be useful at lower levels (which is the weak point of many gish builds), how about a duskblade (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.0)? They're "pre-built" gishes, get lots of spells per day, work from low levels and combine melee and spellcasting. Sure, a fully optimized gish will end up stronger, but duskblades are quite solid tier 3 (which means that it has all the power you're likely to need).

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-26, 02:12 PM
Hmm, since you need to take 10 levels of base class, and assumedly want to be useful at lower levels (which is the weak point of many gish builds), how about a duskblade (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.0)? They're "pre-built" gishes, get lots of spells per day, work from low levels and combine melee and spellcasting. Sure, a fully optimized gish will end up stronger, but duskblades are quite solid tier 3 (which means that it has all the power you're likely to need).

I don't want to play a duskblade that much.
Can anybody provide me with stats (by level) of an abjurant champion?
-Xavez

Prodan
2010-05-26, 02:13 PM
The +2 on diplomacy and gather info you get is a poor reason to play halfelf. Even if you dump skill points into those skills, you could be better served by playing say, a dwarf who has those as class skills.
Or a human who spends his bonus feat on Skill Focus: Diplomacy

Endarire
2010-05-26, 02:18 PM
For a 'simple' Gish, I advise this:

Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) Barbarian1/Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Conjurer OR Transmuter4 or 5/Ruathar3 (Races of the Wild)/Abjurant Champion5 (Complete Mage)/Dragonslayer1 (Draconomicon)/Spellsword1 (Complete Warrior)/Sacred Exorcist4 or 5 (Complete Divine)

Wizard5 grants you an extra feat.

This build loses only 1 caster level, but its BAB by level 20 (assuming Wizard5 and no partial BAB) is 15. With partial BAB stacking, it's at least 16.

As a Wizard you can change your spell preps on a daily basis. A specialist Wizard has as many spell slots as a Sorcerer. A focused specialist has more.

Greenish
2010-05-26, 02:20 PM
Can anybody provide me with stats (by level) of an abjurant champion?Here (www.google.com) you go. The specifics of the class are under copyright, and we're not allowed to reproduce them here, as you've been told a couple of times already.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-26, 02:21 PM
For a 'simple' Gish, I advise this:

Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) Barbarian1/Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Conjurer OR Transmuter4 or 5/Ruathar3 (Races of the Wild)/Abjurant Champion5 (Complete Mage)/Dragonslayer1 (Draconomicon)/Spellsword1 (Complete Warrior)/Sacred Exorcist4 or 5 (Complete Divine)

Wizard5 grants you an extra feat.

This build loses only 1 caster level, but its BAB by level 20 (assuming Wizard5 and no partial BAB) is 15. With partial BAB stacking, it's at least 16.


As a Wizard you can change your spell preps on a daily basis. A specialist Wizard has as many spell slots as a Sorcerer. A focused specialist has more.
Do you think a Fire hobgoblin (assuming the totally innesesary LA is waived off and multiclass penalties are not enforced) could make a good trancer?

I have been DYING to play a hood and a gish, so a build that combines them sounds perfect

herrhauptmann
2010-05-26, 06:00 PM
Why are we stuck on armor?
Greater Luminous Armor + Abjurant Champion > any armor created. +13AC (+17AC vs melee).
Because luminous armor cannot be used by a spontaneous caster. So no sorcerer, bard, warmage, favored soul etc. Check sanctified spells in BoED.
There's also the 1d2 strength damage as an extra disadvantage.



For a 'simple' Gish, I advise this:

Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) Barbarian1/Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Conjurer OR Transmuter4 or 5/Ruathar3 (Races of the Wild)/Abjurant Champion5 (Complete Mage)/Dragonslayer1 (Draconomicon)/Spellsword1 (Complete Warrior)/Sacred Exorcist4 or 5 (Complete Divine)


The OP can't multiclass or take a prestige class for the first 10 levels.

Godskook
2010-05-26, 07:54 PM
Because luminous armor cannot be used by a spontaneous caster, unless he has the Arcane Preparation feat.

Fixed that for you.

herrhauptmann
2010-05-26, 08:14 PM
That is one way around it, but despite all the urgings for Abj Champ + Luminous Armor, no one has been saying it.
Not sure how much of a min-maxer the OP is, but it looks like campaign rules limit that rather severely.