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Fouredged Sword
2010-05-25, 05:33 PM
Ok, I have been reading through the forum, and I come across a rule inturpertation diffrent than what I expected. It involves Necromancer's and animate dead. The wording of animate dead states

"The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. "

This comes into conflict with multiple spellcasting types. Say a wizard 10/Cleric 10. One way to read this is that you could raise and control up to 40 HD of undead. That is your max caster level.

The problem is that you have two caster levels. I read it suggesting that you could control 40 HD of undead as a wizard, and 40 HD of undead as a cleric, makeing 80 HD total.

The issue gets more complecated when you use a setup that just screams cheese, and use a level of spell thief and the master spellthief class to cause all arcane caster class levels to stack for the purpose of all arcane spells levels. This could make a one level dip into spellthief double the undead used by a character. A spellthief 1/wizard 19 would have both a wizard and spellthief caster level of 20. He woulden't be able to cast spellthief spells, but he would have a caster level.

The issue could turn meaner if a character went Spellthief 1/ wizard 1/ dread necromancer 18. He would have caster level of 20 in all classes, allowing for 120 HD of undead to be raised.

So, is this cheese or sleaze? If I am reading it wrong, where is there a clerification.

Boci
2010-05-25, 05:35 PM
But wizard or spellthief 1 does not allow you to cast animate dead.

fryplink
2010-05-25, 05:38 PM
But spellthief 1/Wizard 18 lets you cast Animate Dead (at least on the wizard side), {I don't know much about the spellthief class, but Animate Dead is a 4th level Wiz spell iirc}

Fouredged Sword
2010-05-25, 05:40 PM
The spell thief could steal the spell from yourself to cast it as a spellthief.

Dr.Epic
2010-05-25, 05:42 PM
I would say 40 HD for 10 levels of wizard and 40 HD for 10 levels of cleric.

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-25, 05:45 PM
The caveat is that you must be able to cast the spell as a certain class in order to make use of your caster level from that class. Otherwise, it's just irrelevant.

Boci
2010-05-25, 05:56 PM
The spell thief could steal the spell from yourself to cast it as a spellthief.

Yes, so you have 1 80HD pool of undead from the wizard side, and another that can be gradually filled as you steal spells from your spell thief level. Don't forget to pay the material component cost for each casting.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-25, 06:01 PM
You would be able to control 40 HD worth of undead if you cast as a Wizard, and 40 more by using the Cleric version. I don't see what's so hard about that. You also seem to be a bit mixed up on how Master Spellthief works. It increases the maximum level that you can steal, but it does nothing to help the fact that you can still only hold one spell level.

That said, Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 8/Dread Necro 8 would be able to command one hell of a legion.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-25, 06:02 PM
They would be tracked separately. 40HD from Animate Dead spells cast as a Wizard, and 40HD from Animate Dead spells cast as a Cleric.

What's the problem? He only has fifth-level spells, so he's hardly overpowered.

Boci
2010-05-25, 06:03 PM
That said, Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 8/Dread Necro 8 would be able to command one hell of a legion.

And how long would your combat turn take?

Private-Prinny
2010-05-25, 06:07 PM
And how long would your combat turn take?

I never said it would be even remotely practical, now did I? :smalltongue:

Amphetryon
2010-05-25, 06:07 PM
And how long would your combat turn take?

1-d-Attrition minutes.

Fouredged Sword
2010-05-25, 06:16 PM
Master spellthief allows you to steal a spell of a level that you could if you had taken all spellthief levels. The example is that a spellthief 4 / wizard 4 could steal spells of 4th level becuse you stole spells as a level 8 spellthief.

The spellthief class then states "After stealing a spell, a spellthief can cast the spell himself on a subsequent turn. ". So the spellthief can cast the animate dead spell, just use a touch attack to steal it from yourself. Also, have a evil cleric nearby to steal a desicrate from, and an evil alter, and the proper feats, and levels of Dread Necromancer, and the necromancer specialist alternate for wizard..... wait! +8 hp per HD!

How to handel those undead. Mass warfare rules. VOLLEY OF ARROWS!!!

Private-Prinny
2010-05-25, 06:25 PM
Master spellthief allows you to steal a spell of a level that you could if you had taken all spellthief levels. The example is that a spellthief 4 / wizard 4 could steal spells of 4th level becuse you stole spells as a level 8 spellthief.

Please notice that the example has 4 levels of Spellthief, meaning he can hold 4 levels worth of spells, such as 2 Magic Missiles and a Scorching Ray. With a one level dip, it doesn't matter what level of spell you can steal, because you don't have the capacity to hold it.


At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level (treat
0-level spells as 1/2 level for this purpose). For instance, a 4th-level spellthief can have two stolen 2nd-level spells, or one 2nd-level spell and two 1st-level spells, or any other combination of 0-level, 1st-level, and 2nd-level spells totaling four levels. If he steals a spell that would cause
him to exceed this limit, he must choose to lose stolen spells sufficient to reduce his total number of stolen spell levels to no more than his maximum.

J.Gellert
2010-05-25, 06:41 PM
We've always allowed unlimited undead in our games, so I say 120 HD doesn't sound too bad.

As long as no single undead is too overpowered, the horde as a whole is near useless anyway. Such is the nature of D&D combat - If you can easily kill two of something, you can probably kill fifty of it as well.

For purely roleplaying/background reasons, on the other hand, it's quite fun playing a Wanda.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-25, 09:21 PM
What happens when you cast it from a scroll?

Optimystik
2010-05-25, 09:25 PM
What happens when you cast it from a scroll?

Wouldn't the control use the scriber's CL just as the spell itself would?

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-25, 09:27 PM
Wouldn't the control use the scriber's CL just as the spell itself would?

I would assume so. But what of multiple scrolls? Multiple scrolls used by a wizard?

Private-Prinny
2010-05-25, 09:52 PM
I would assume so. But what of multiple scrolls? Multiple scrolls used by a wizard?

Multiple scrolls scribed by casters of varying level?

DragoonWraith
2010-05-25, 10:09 PM
As to the original question: The Spellthief 1/Wizard 1/Dread Necromancer 18, having a Spellthief Caster Level of 20, a Wizard Caster Level of 20, and a Dread Necromancer Caster Level of 20, and being able to Animate 4 HD per Caster Level (4*20=80), would only be able to pull off 160 HD worth of Undead, but he'd have to manage 80 HD of them through stealing casts of Animate Dead, which is probably non-trivial to do (he cannot steal them from himself). He technically would get another 80 HD worth of undead from his Wizard caster level, but only if could cast Animate Dead as a Wizard, which he can't.

A Spellthief 1/Wizard 7/Dread Necromancer 12 would be able to manage 240 HD, but would have at most 6th level spells.

A Spellthief 1/Wizard 8/Dread Necromancer 1/Ultimate Magus 10 would get 240 HD, and still gets 9th level spells.

If your DM rules that Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead are equivalent for qualifying for Prestige Classes and Class Features (which they don't, but whatever), and you can either change alignments, or alignment restrictions are waived, a Spellthief 1/Wizard 3/Dread Necromancer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Silver Flame Pyromancer 1/Paragnostic Apostle 4 would have 240 HD of Undead, 9th level spells (including Paladin spells!), and Rebuke Undead as a 28th level Cleric. (under the same rules, a Dread Necromancer 19/Silver Flame Pyromancer 1 would Rebuke Undead as a 39th level Cleric...)

Private-Prinny
2010-05-25, 10:18 PM
As to the original question: The Spellthief 1/Wizard 1/Dread Necromancer 18, having a Spellthief Caster Level of 20, a Wizard Caster Level of 20, and a Dread Necromancer Caster Level of 20, and being able to Animate 4 HD per Caster Level (4*20=80), would only be able to pull off 160 HD worth of Undead, but he'd have to manage 80 HD of them through stealing casts of Animate Dead, which is probably non-trivial to do (he cannot steal them from himself). He technically would get another 80 HD worth of undead from his Wizard caster level, but only if could cast Animate Dead as a Wizard, which he can't.

Except that he can only hold 1 spell level because of his class level in Spellthief, and therefore wouldn't be able to hold a casting of Animate Dead. But still, he'd be able to pull off more than that because of Undead Mastery, which is a really nice ability.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-25, 10:27 PM
Dread Necro gets a lot more HD of undead to control... 4+cha mod per class level, in point of fact. So even with a Charisma of only 18, that's 8 per class level, or 160 HD of undead by level 20.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-25, 10:27 PM
Except that he can only hold 1 spell level because of his class level in Spellthief, and therefore wouldn't be able to hold a casting of Animate Dead. But still, he'd be able to pull off more than that because of Undead Mastery, which is a really nice ability.
Right you are; I never noticed that in Master Spellthief. That's a really lame limitation...

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-25, 10:35 PM
Multiple scrolls scribed by casters of varying level?

Or of the same level. Or by the same caster. If scrolls have a separate control limit, then there's nothing stopping anyone with scribe scroll from breaking the normal limit. If scrolls don't, then is a caster's control limit linked to the scrolls regardless of who reads them?

Criptfeind
2010-05-25, 10:52 PM
Not that it matters anyway with animate undead, at the spell theft thing in the OP you get 120HD of undead from the animate undead spell that is like six or so CR10 critters. Cheese them out and start with good bodies and you will have at most something to soak up some damage but not do anything worthwhile and they will be a pain to manage. Even if you awaken them (at a 500XP price tag) they wont be very helpful.

You want mooks? At that lvl just put tumors in everyone's brain.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-25, 11:06 PM
Not that it matters anyway with animate undead, at the spell theft thing in the OP you get 120HD of undead from the animate undead spell that is like six or so CR10 critters. Cheese them out and start with good bodies and you will have at most something to soak up some damage but not do anything worthwhile and they will be a pain to manage. Even if you awaken them (at a 500XP price tag) they wont be very helpful.

You want mooks? At that lvl just put tumors in everyone's brain.

20 of them, actually...

but the fun part is when you start jacking up their power with things like Spellstitched or Corpsecrafter. Without affecting CR.

Criptfeind
2010-05-25, 11:07 PM
What CR10 skeleton or zombie only costs 6HD?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-25, 11:15 PM
What CR10 skeleton or zombie only costs 6HD?

Technically, none of them can EVER get CR 10, without template stacking or other kinds of fun, as even a 20hd skeleton is only CR8.

What you are missing is the enormous advantages you can have in adding all kinds of interesting things to them, which do not affect their CR, but do significantly increase their effectiveness in combat.

Case in point: Destruction Retribution (LM). Your undead blow up in negative energy novas when they die, healing the other undead in the area, and hurting the opponents. It's a feat, it applies to every undead you create.

Then you use Fell Animate metamagic feat for free zombies.

Have a nice day.

Criptfeind
2010-05-25, 11:29 PM
Than what is this?

20 of them, actually...

But really they are weak. You can take your Corpsecrafter feats and you can take your Dread necro lvls but the point is the feats are better spent elsewhere and the levels are not part of this hypothetical build.

Really what you mostly get is meatshields.

You could put a spell stitch on but it is expensive in exp and resources, the spells most likely wont be that good as well.

Now that is not saying you cant make a really powerful undead with a Animate Undead as the base, just that it is easier to do other things to get power and tons of undead are a headache to manage.

Aside-Does spellstitch add CR? I thought it did?

Lysander
2010-05-25, 11:33 PM
Or of the same level. Or by the same caster. If scrolls have a separate control limit, then there's nothing stopping anyone with scribe scroll from breaking the normal limit. If scrolls don't, then is a caster's control limit linked to the scrolls regardless of who reads them?

Even if someone else wrote the scroll you're still the one using the spell, so the HD limit cap is based on your own caster level.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-25, 11:43 PM
Even if someone else wrote the scroll you're still the one using the spell, so the HD limit cap is based on your own caster level.

Then if a rogue uses such a scroll, does he have a 0 CL, or the CL he managed to emulate with UMD in order to read the scroll? Moreover, that doesn't really seem to follow, since at that point the character would be using the CL of the scroll for max created and his own CL for number controlled, whereas the spell makes no such differentiation when it uses "your caster level" for each.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-26, 12:09 AM
Than what is this?


But really they are weak. You can take your Corpsecrafter feats and you can take your Dread necro lvls but the point is the feats are better spent elsewhere and the levels are not part of this hypothetical build.

Really what you mostly get is meatshields.

You could put a spell stitch on but it is expensive in exp and resources, the spells most likely wont be that good as well.

Now that is not saying you cant make a really powerful undead with a Animate Undead as the base, just that it is easier to do other things to get power and tons of undead are a headache to manage.

Aside-Does spellstitch add CR? I thought it did?

something interesting to note about Create Undead...


A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A skeleton gains the following special qualities.

So if you can find critters under 10hd with special qualities which have (Ex) abilities which improve their attacks, that is really what you are looking for.

Particularly, you are wanting to find a Gargantuan or Colossal critter with 10hd, but until you do, you can always use things like the Megaraptor or Cloud Giant listed in the SRD.

However, it really doesn't matter. With Destructive Retribution + Fell Animate, you have a very large number of bombs at your disposal.

Furthermore, my statements are FAR closer to being relevant to the discussion than your comments that the discussion is pointless, considering the discussion is how to increase and use the HD cap of undead... not belittle it.

Lysander
2010-05-26, 07:47 AM
Then if a rogue uses such a scroll, does he have a 0 CL, or the CL he managed to emulate with UMD in order to read the scroll? Moreover, that doesn't really seem to follow, since at that point the character would be using the CL of the scroll for max created and his own CL for number controlled, whereas the spell makes no such differentiation when it uses "your caster level" for each.

In that case I think a person with no caster levels using a scroll would create uncontrolled undead.

It just doesn't make sense if you base the number you can control off the scroll. Either you're allowed an infinite number of undead, or other people can use up your allotment of dead by using scrolls you've written. Remember, animate dead is an instantaneous spell. As soon as it's cast whatever the caster level of the scroll is no long applies because the spell is over.

Plus, it's more logical this way. Why would there be an arbitrary allotment? Who imposed it? It makes more sense to just assume that controlling undead is hard, and the better a caster you are the more you can manage at one time.

Prodan
2010-05-26, 07:48 AM
Doesn't one use the CL the scroll's creator imbued it with?

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-26, 07:52 AM
Doesn't one use the CL the scroll's creator imbued it with?

No, you cast it at the CL the scroll's creator made it at.

Unless you're somehow insinuating that a Wizard casting Animate Dead at CL 9 instead of his real CL of 11 somehow can't control as many undead anymore.

dextercorvia
2010-05-26, 08:01 AM
If we are using his caster level, then the sentence would imply that the scriber is actually in command of the undead.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 08:29 AM
Doesn't one use the CL the scroll's creator imbued it with?

No, you cast it at the CL the scroll's creator made it at.

I have the distinct feeling you two just said the same thing two different ways. :smallconfused:


If we are using his caster level, then the sentence would imply that the scriber is actually in command of the undead.

That makes no sense. By that logic, a scroll of fireball will only shoot out in the direction the scriber specified, and a scroll of Summon Monster would not allow you to give orders to anything that showed up.