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View Full Version : Any way to rip off a dragon's wings ?



Grifthin
2010-05-25, 11:31 PM
So party's going up against a dragon. There's a:

Minotaur Ubercharger
Human Half Dragon fighter
Dragon born of bahaumat Duskblade (wings)
Human Fighter/Psychic Warrior
Dwarf Dragon born of bahaumat Cleric (mind)
Warblade
Druid
Rogue

Fighting a ancient wyrm. Due to the conditions they are fighting in running or charging will be next to impossible. They are all between level 15-20. Is there any way/rules for getting on it's back and tearing it's wing(s) off ? Almost no one has flight.

awa
2010-05-25, 11:33 PM
not really hp are abstract you normally cant target individual parts.

Saintjebus
2010-05-25, 11:38 PM
Yes, something like this would have to be houseruled.

That being said, most* Dms are amenable to parties using clever thinking like this to overcome the encounter.



*in my experience

Ravens_cry
2010-05-25, 11:38 PM
On the other hand, considering the size of the wings, I would say the wings have a separate HP and are targetable, like with hydra and their heads. You would have to be able to reach them though, which has it's own difficulties.
Yes, I know it's no RAW.
It's Rule of Cool and Fun.

Saintheart
2010-05-25, 11:41 PM
If you really want to cheese it, find some way for the Duskblade to cast Shivering Touch. 3d6 DEX damage, no save, touch attack roll isn't targeting the wings as such, but given the effect otherwise it may not matter... :)

TroubleBrewing
2010-05-25, 11:41 PM
There is no RAW way, so far as I know. Your DM could make a ruling that a series of grapple/sunder/attack against the dragon would result in sundering it's wings. It would have to be something incredibly difficult, and would probably resemble nothing so much as a "cutscene" style thing, with players crawling all over its back, hacking at its wings with axes, swords, and other what have you.

WeLoveFireballs
2010-05-25, 11:45 PM
It attacks with its wings so they count as weapons. Sunder 'em.

rubycona
2010-05-25, 11:49 PM
It attacks with its wings so they count as weapons. Sunder 'em.

This, definitely.

Plus, D&D is supposed to be the rules supporting a "realistic" sort of approach... the idea is that you can do anything you think of. So you Should be able to do it. It's up to the DM to make the call on How you can do it.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-25, 11:55 PM
In 2nd Ed AD&D, there was a weapon called a "Sword of Sharpness" that could cut off limbs on a critical hit.

Of course, you didn't bleed from the lost limb, go into shock or any other result other than no longer being able to use two weapons/2-handed weapons until you got a Heal/Regeneration spell from your Cleric. :smallbiggrin:

Reverse Gravity would (arguably) drive a Dragon into the ground, if it were flying low enough. There's also a spell in the Spell Compendium that pulls a flying creature down from the air.

Collossal Bolas would be good too. Sure, you take a non-proficiency penalty and a size penalty, but you're throwing against a touch AC.

awa
2010-05-25, 11:56 PM
Even getting on it's back will be tough by raw becuase that functions off grapples and reliably grappling dragons is really hard.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 12:09 AM
Doesn't Vortex of Teeth (SpC) have an illustration of a dragon's wings being ripped apart because they are too large to fit safely in the eye of the spell?

Mastikator
2010-05-26, 12:14 AM
Even getting on it's back will be tough by raw becuase that functions off grapples and reliably grappling dragons is really hard.

Yeah there needs to be a rule for climbing big monsters.
Something like. make climb and balance check every round, dc 20, beginning to climb provokes aoo. Can only be done on monsters 2 size categories above your own. Takes 2+x rounds to climb ontop, where x is the size difference in size category.

Mando Knight
2010-05-26, 12:14 AM
Reverse Gravity would (arguably) drive a Dragon into the ground, if it were flying low enough.

...I don't see that logic. Hit the ceiling of its own cavern, maybe.

Rainbownaga
2010-05-26, 12:16 AM
Isn't there some rule that tripping flying creatures causes them to fall? Also entangling.

Maybe you just have to sneak up on it or attack it inside; unless it has hover or improved flight it's going to have a shocking mobility and probably won't get a chance to take off once you get it down to ground.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 12:18 AM
Isn't there some rule that tripping flying creatures causes them to fall? Also entangling.

Yes, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a) if they use wings to fly.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-26, 12:31 AM
Use Polymorph Any Object to change it into a Hydra. Cut off heads. When PAO expires you might end up with sundered wings. :smallcool:

gbprime
2010-05-26, 12:35 AM
There's also a spell in the Spell Compendium that pulls a flying creature down from the air.

Two of them, and both your cleric and druid could cast them. Earthbind and Downdraft, 2nd and 3rd level. But both are save negates and both allow spell resistance. Good luck with that.

Grifthin
2010-05-26, 12:59 AM
Sundering Sounds good to me.

What do you guys think of this - Climb/balance checks to climb up dragon. Lets say 2 of each. Then you would need a sunder attempt at the wings. Hardness 10 and how much Health would you guys say ? Or should I increase the hardness + Lower health. What do you think ?

Lev
2010-05-26, 01:01 AM
Essentially called shots became house rule and are now replaced by crit and sneak attack-like abilities, but the general rule is -2 to hit a body section or -5 for a smallsection, for example if you wanted to smash their legs you could take a -2 and possibly provoke AoO depending on how poorly you did, but if you wanted to aim for the hand you could take a -5 and lop off a finger... goodbye somatic components! =D

Likewise this houserule would be -2 to aim for the wings, or -5 to aim for the wing bones, you could then attempt a sunder and the DM would figure the hardness, DR and HP of the specific thing you are hitting, then you could either try to grapple then STR check its wings similar to rope or you could try and peter-pan sail dagger it all the way down or something classy.

Personally I don't believe you shouldn't be able to do this, because if you can't even try to kill someone by ripping his arms off and beating him to death with his own arms, then DnD kind of loses it's magic =]

Jolee
2010-05-26, 01:35 AM
Complete Warrior has the Giantbane tactical feat, one of the options it grants (Climb Aboard) is the ability to make a DC 10 climb check to climb onto the back of a creature two or more size categories larger than you. On its turn, the creature take a -4 penalty to attack vs. the miniature mountaineer and may make a grapple attempt opposed by a climb check in order to dislodge you, otherwise you stay atop the creature until it tries again (presumable you'd be able to attack while up there, but that's kinda left ambiguous).

As for the chopping the wings thing, I'd just allow the PC's to make sunder checks vs. the wings once they're on its back.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-26, 02:27 AM
The only RAW method I know is the feat Lacerate from dragon magazine, an ambush feat.

Has a laundry list of prerequisites, and makes you disable a limb without a save.

Said this , I'd go with Sunder and different HP as suggested above.. use Kraken and Hydra as guidelines.

The Mentalist
2010-05-26, 03:57 AM
2nd Edition ruled that a dragon at half HP can't fly. Maybe fluff it as ripping wings off (and beating the dragon to death with them)