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DragoonWraith
2010-05-26, 04:43 PM
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"The ways of arcana lie open, clear to my eyes." -- Kael, Invoker

While a Warlock invokes his fey or fiendish heritage, and the Dragonfire Adept calls upon the power of the great Dragons, the Invoker merely calls upon the flows of Arcana themselves. In this way, he is the closest to an actual spellcaster of the three, and knows a great many more Invocations than they do.

Making an Invoker
Invokers are generally studious; anyone who might be a Wizard could be an Invoker instead, if they wished. There are substantial differences between the power of the two, however, so the way of the Invoker will appeal to those who prefer to never be without the magic they need. Invokers are also more worldly than their book-delving brethren, and many an Invoker eschews the more academic arcane arts precisely because they spend more of their time walking the real world.

Abilities
Intelligence is the most important Ability for an Invoker, as it determines the strength of their Invocations. However, Wise Invokers are quite common, as their skills often favor Wisdom. And of course, no adventurer should be without a reasonable Constitution.

Alignment
Invokers come in all alignments, and in no particular preference. Like Wizards, their rational approach to magic can appeal to the Lawfully inclined, but unlike those they are also very adaptable and very dependable, which appeals to the Chaotic wanderer. There is power enough to appeal to both Good and Evil, of course.

Races
Interestingly, Half-Elven Invokers seem especially common, though this is largely due to temperament and less to natural ability: those Half-Elves who favor their Elven heritage take an interest in magic, but often lack access to Wizardly universities, and therefore often find Invoking more appealing. Of course, any race that is naturally Intelligent will have an advantage as an Invoker, and Humans can be found as Invokers much like they can be found doing anything else.

Class Features of the Invoker

Hit Die
d4.

Skills
Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Intelligence modifier) x4.
Skill Points per Level Thereafter: 4 + Intelligence modifier.

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Forgery (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (N/A), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis).

Table 1: The Invoker
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Least | Lesser | Greater | Greatest
1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | Magic Insight, Summon Familiar | 1
2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | Alchemist | 2
3rd | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 | | 3
4th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Scribe | 3
5th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | | 4
6th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Alchemical Efficiency | 4 | 1
7th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | | 4 | 2
8th | +4 | +2 | +2 | +6 | Secret Script | 5 | 2
9th | +4 | +3 | +3 | +6 | | 5 | 3
10th | +5 | +3 | +3 | +7 | Increased Alchemical Efficiency | 6 | 3
11th | +5 | +3 | +3 | +7 | | 6 | 3 | 1
12th | +6/+1 | +4 | +4 | +8 | 4th level Potions | 6 | 3 | 2
13th | +6/+1 | +4 | +4 | +8 | | 6 | 4 | 2
14th | +7/+2 | +4 | +4 | +9 | 5th level Potions | 6 | 4 | 3
15th | +7/+2 | +5 | +5 | +9 | | 7 | 4 | 3
16th | +8/+3 | +5 | +5 | +10 | 6th level Potions | 7 | 4 | 3 | 1
17th | +8/+3 | +5 | +5 | +10 | | 7 | 4 | 3 | 2
18th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +11 | 7th level Potions | 7 | 5 | 4 | 2
19th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +11 | | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3
20th | +10/+5 | +6 | +6 | +12 | 8th & 9th level Potions | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4
[/table]
Armor and Weapon Proficiencies
An Invoker is proficient in all simple weapons, but in no forms of armor or shields. Armor of any form may interfere with his Invocations that have Somatic components (most do).

Invocations (Sp)
An Invoker does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do. Instead, he possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as Invocations that require him to focus the flows of arcana that surround and connect all things. An Invoker can use any Invocation he knows at will, with the following qualifications:

An Invoker’s Invocations are spell-like abilities; using an Invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. An Invocation can be disrupted, just as a spell can be ruined during casting. An Invoker is entitled to a Concentration check to successfully use an Invocation if he is hit by an attack while invoking, just as a spellcaster would be. An Invoker can choose to use an Invocation defensively, by making a successful Concentration check, to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity. An Invoker’s Invocations are subject to spell resistance unless an Invocation’s description specifically states otherwise. An Invoker’s Caster Level with his Invocations is equal to his Invoker level.

The save DC for an Invocation (if it allows a save) is 10 + equivalent spell level + the Invoker’s Intelligence modifier. Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, an Invoker cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat (see page 303 of the Monster Manual), as well as from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities, such as Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability (see pages 303 and 304 of the Monster Manual).

The four grades of Invocations, in order of their relative power, are Least, Lesser, Greater, and Greatest. An Invoker begins with knowledge of two Least Invocations, plus Magic Insight, a third Least Invocation (see below). As an Invoker gains levels, he learns new Invocations, as summarized on Table 1. A list of available Invocations can be found following this class description.

At any level when an Invoker learns a new Invocation, he can also replace any one Invocation he already knows with another Invocation of the same or a lower grade.

Finally, unlike other spell-like abilities, Invocations are subject to Arcane Spell Failure chance from worn armor.

Invokers can qualify for some Prestige Classes usually intended for spellcasters; Invokers benefit in a specific way from Prestige Classes that have “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1 level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement benefit. An Invoker taking levels in such a Prestige Class does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain an increased Caster Level when using his Invocations. An Invoker also gains new Invocations Known at these Prestige Class levels as though he had gained a level in the Invoker class.

An Invoker can qualify for Prestige Classes with spellcasting level requirements, even though he never actually learns to cast spells. To do so, he must have a Caster Level equal to twice the Spell Level required.

Magic Insight
At 1st level, the Invoker gains Magic Insight as a bonus Invocation known, regardless of his other choices of Invocation.

Summon Familiar
As the Sorcerer or Wizard class feature. An Invoker may use the Share Spells feature to share Invocations with his Familiar, even though they are not technically spells. He does not gain the ability to share other types of Spell-like Ability.

Alchemist
At 2nd level, an Invoker gains Brew Potion as a bonus feat, and furthermore can create any potion without being able to cast the spell it requires by having a Caster Level of at least twice the Spell's level, and succeeding on a Craft (Alchemy) check equal to 10 + the Spell's level. Success means that the Invoker is treated as if he had successfully cast the spell; the Invoker still must provide all other resources for the brewing.

An Invoker with the Alchemist feature may also brew Spellvials, special potions which are used as thrown weapons. Spellvials are brewed using spells of no higher than 3rd level, just like potions, and the spells must furthermore function either on a ranged touch attack, a single specific target, or in an area that may be placed at range (not an area that must be centered on the caster). Throwing and hitting with a spellvial is ranged touch attack: for single-target spells, this means the spell hits (and in the case of spells that offered a Reflex save, they automatically fail this save since the Invoker has actually hit them with the attack), for area-effect spells it means the spell is essentially cast centered on the area where it was thrown (and any targets within the area are allowed any applicable saving throws, including Reflex saves). As weapons, spellvials have a range increment of 10 ft. Ingesting a spellvial has no effect.

Scribe
At 4th level, an Invoker gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat, and furthermore can create any scroll without being able to cast the spell in question by having a Caster Level of at least twice the Spell's level, and succeeding on a Forgery check equal to 10 + the Spell's desired Caster Level. Success means the Invoker is treated as having successfully cast the spell; the Invoker must still provide all other resources for the scribing.

The Invoker may also substitute a Forgery check for his Use Magic Device check to attempt to activate scrolls.

Alchemical Efficiency
A 6th level Invoker brews potions, spellvials, and other alchemical items far more quickly than others: he makes as much progress on alchemical items in an hour as others do in a day, and as much progress in a day as others do in a week. He may also brew two potions or spellvials in a single day, as opposed to only one.

Secret Script
A number of times per day equal to the sum of his Intelligence and Wisdom modifiers, an 8th level Invoker may cast a spell from a scroll without consuming the scroll. In order to do so, he must have a number of ranks in Forgery equal to the Caster Level + the Spell Level of the scroll, and he may only cast a spell from any single scroll once per day without consuming it.

Increased Alchemical Efficiency
At 10th level, an Invoker gets even better at brewing potions and spellvials: He may brew three in a day instead of two. He also gains a 25% discount on the gp and XP costs of brewing potions, spellvials, and alchemical items.

Higher Level Potions
Beginning at 12th level, an Invoker may begin to brew potions and spellvials that use spells of up to 4th level. At 14th this goes up to 5th level spells, at 16th, 6th, at 18th, 7th, and at 20th, all the way up to 9th level spells may be added to potions or spellvials.

Invocation List
1 Originally printed as a Warlock Invocation in Complete Arcane.
2 Originally printed as a Warlock Invocation in Complete Mage.
3 Originally printed as a Warlock Invocation in Dragon Magic.
4 Originally printed as a Dragonfire Adept Invocation in Dragon Magic.
N New Invocation described below.
Least Invocations
All-Seeing Eyes2 - As Comprehend Languages on written material, plus bonus on Search and Spot checks.
Aquatic Adaptation4 - Breathe underwater; gain swim speed.
Arcane Knowledge4 (as Draconic Knowledge) - Gain bonus on Knowledge and Spellcraft checks.
Baleful Utterance1 - Speak a word and shatter objects as the Shatter spell.
Beguiling Influence1, 4 - Gain bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.
Body AugmentationN - Use Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, or Cat's Grace, as the spells.
Breath of the Night1, 4 - Create a fog cloud as the spell.
Call of the Beast2 - Speak with animals and influence their behavior.
Darkness1, 4 - Use Darkness as the spell.
Deafening Blast4 (as Deafening Roar) - Cone of sound deafens creatures.
Earthen Grasp1 - Use Earthen Grasp as the spell.
Ebon Eyes1 (as Devil's Sight) - See normally in darkness and magical darkness.
Elemental AnimationN - Use Animate Fire, Animate Water, or Animate Wood, as the spells.
Endure Exposure4 - Use Endure Elements as the spell; target gains immunity to your Invocations that deal damage of one energy type.
Entropic Warding1 - Deflect incoming ranged attacks, leave no trail, and prevent being tracked by scent.
Leaps and Bounds1 - Gain bonus on Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks.
Local TremorN - Use Local Tremor, as the spell.
LorecallN - Use Balancing Lorecall or Listening Lorecall, as the spells.
Magic CoatingN - Use Grease or Sticky Floor, as the spells.
Magic Insight4 - Detect magical auras; identify magic items.
Make Your Own Luck1 (as Dark One's Own Luck) - Gain a luck bonus on one type of saves.
Miasmic Cloud1 - Create a cloud of mist that grants concealment and fatigues those who enter.
Mind AugmentationN - Use Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, or Owl's Wisdom, as the spell.
Mystic MissileN - Use Magic Missile, as the spell, and be able to launch a single missile as an Immediate Action.
OmenN - Use Omen of Peril, as the spell, but without the need for a Focus.
Scalding Dust4 - Use Gust of Wind as the spell; creatures in area take Fire damage equal to your caster level.
Scorn EarthN - Glide above solid surfaces; become immune to caltrops, Grease, and other ground-based dangers, and fall slowly as Feather Fall.
See the Unseen1, 4 - Gain See Invisibility, as the spell, and darkvision.
Spiderwalk1 - Gain Spider Climb as the spell and you are immune to webs.
Summon Swarm1 - Use Summon Swarm, as the spell.
StormcloudN - Use Thunderhead, as the spell.
TranspositionN - Use Baleful Transposition, as the spell.
Wintry EmbraceN - Use Creeping Cold, as the spell, but without the need for a Focus.
Words of Power, LeastN - Use Power Word: Fatigue, Power Word: Pain, or Power Word: Sicken, as the spells.
Lesser Invocations
Charm1, 4 - Cause a single creature to regard you as a friend.
Curse1 (as Curse of Despair) - Curse one creature as the Bestow Curse spell, or hinder their attacks.
The Dead Walk1 - Create undead as the Animate Dead spell.
DefenestrationN - Use Defenestrating Sphere, as the spell.
Dread Seizure3 - Halve a target's movement, and give it a -5 penalty on attacks against those more than 5 ft. away.
Elemental OrbN - Use Orb of Acid, Orb of Cold, Orb of Electricity, Orb of Fire or Orb of Sound, as the spells.
Energy Resistance4 - Gain resistance 10 to acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage.
Enthralling Voice4 - Make nearby creatures fascinated.
Flight4 (as Draconic Flight) - Sprout wings and fly at good maneuverability; fly longer overland.
Falling DreamN - Use Illusory Pit, as the spell.
Flee the Scene1 - Use short-range Dimension Door as the spell, and leave behind a major image.
Frightful Presence4 - Make nearby creatures shaken.
Harkon's BladeN - Use Sword of Deception, as the spell.
Humanoid Shape4 - Take the form of any humanoid creature.
Hungry Darkness1 - Create shadows filled with a swarm of bats.
Ignore the Pyre3 - Gain resistance equal to your Caster Level to Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic damage.
Make WayN - Use Forcewave, as the spell.
Relentless Dispelling2 - A targeted Dispel Magic, with additional targeted Dispel Magic the next turn.
Stony Grasp1 - Use Stony Grasp as the spell.
Voidsense1, 4 - Gain blindsense 30 feet.
Voracious Dispelling1, 4 - Use Dispel Magic as the spell, causing damage to creatures whose effects are dispelled.
Walk Unseen1, 4 - Use Invisibility (self only) as the spell.
Wall of Gloom1 - Use Wall of Gloom as the spell.
Witchwood Step2 - Walk on water and move through some obstacles unimpeded.
Weighty Utterance3 - Flying target falls 5 ft. per Caster Level; takes falling damage if it hits a surface.
Greater Invocations
Arcane Hide1 (as Draconic Toughness) - Gain temporary hit points equal to your caster level.
Aura of Flame1 - Aura deals Fire damage to creatures that strike you.
Baleful Geas1 - A single creature becomes your servant, but slowly sickens and dies.
CallingN - Use Sending as the spell.
Caustic Mire2 - Acidic sludge slows progress, deals damage.
Chilling Fog1 - Create Solid Fog that deals Cold damage.
Chilling Tentacles4 - Use Black Tentacles as the spell, and deal extra Cold damage to creatures in the area.
Devour Magic4 - Use targeted Greater Dispel Magic with a touch and gain temporary hit points based on the level of spells successfully dispelled.
Dragon Ward3 - Gain resistance to the attacks and special abilities of dragons.
Enervating Shadow4 - Gain total concealment in dark areas and impose a Strength penalty on adjacent living creatures.
FissureN - Create a temporary Wall of Stone, stagger and push aside those who are in its way.
GlaciationN - Freeze target so they cannot move.
Nightmares Made Real2 - Create illusory terrain that damages foes and allows you to hide.
Painful Slumber of Ages2 - Creature falls asleep, takes damage when awakened.
Pulse of Terror1 (as Terrifying Roar) - Use Fear as the spell; creatures shaken by the effect cannot attack you.
Tenacious Plague4 - Use Insect Plague as the spell, but the summoned locust swarm deals damage as a magic weapon.
Voodoo DollN - Immobile construct shares damage with target on death, has no defenses.
Wall of Perilous Flame4 - Create a Wall of Fire as the spell, but half the damage from the wall results from supernatural power.
Windstorm1 (as Wingstorm) - Create powerful gusts of wind.
Words of Power, GreaterN - Use Power Word: Disable, Power Word: Distract, or Power Word: Nauseate, as the spells.
Greatest Invocations
Brewing StormN - Allies within cloud gain 1 AC per round, enemies within cloud lose 1 AC per round.
Discorporation4 (as Dark Discorporation) - Gain many benefits of the Swarm subtype.
Energy Immunity1 - Gain or grant immunity to Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic damage.
Flight, Greater4 (as Greater Draconic Flight) - Fly at perfect maneuverability; gain overland speed.
Impenetrable Barrier3 - Use Wall of Force, as the spell, but it is perfectly black and blocks line of sight.
Instill Vulnerability1 - Remove resistances and immunities.
Polyscient1 (as Dark Foresight) - Use Foresight as the spell, and communicate telepathically with a close target of the effect.
Master of PhysicsN - Use Telekinetic Sphere, as the spell.
MeteoN - Use Meteor Swarm, as the spell.
Path of Shadow1 - Use Shadow Walk as the spell and speed up natural healing.
Perilous Veil1 - Use Veil as the spell; anyone succeeding on the Will save to negate the illusion takes damage.
Retributive Invisibility1 - Use Greater Invisibility as the spell (self only) that deals damage in a burst if dispelled.
Spellcaster's BaneN - You may attempt to counterspell an opponent as an Immediate Action, as if casting Greater Dispel Magic.
Steal Summoning2 - Take control of another caster's summoned monster.
Word of Changing1 - Use Baleful Polymorph as the spell, but the effect could become permanent.
Words of Power, GreatestN - Use Power Word: Kill, Power Word: Petrify, or Power Word: Stun, as the spells.
Void MagicN - Use Antimagic Field at range, but only as long as you concentrate.

New Least Invocations
Body Augmentation
Least; 2nd
AAAAYou can use Bear's EndurancePHB, Bull's StrengthPHB, and Cat's GracePHB, as the spells. Only one may be active at a time; using another, even on a different target, causes the previous effect to be removed.

Elemental Animation
Least; 2nd
AAAAYou can use Animate FireSC, Animate WaterSC, and Animate WoodSC, as the spells.

Local Tremor
Least; 2nd
AAAAYou can use Local TremorRotD, as the spell.

Lorecall
Least; 1st
AAAAYou can use Balancing LorecallSC, and Listening LorecallSC, as the spells. Only one of these may be active on your person at a time; using it again replaces any previous uses.

Magic Coating
Least; 1st
AAAAYou can use GreasePHB and Sticky FloorRotD, as the spells.

Mind Augmentation
Least; 2nd
AAAAYou can use Eagle's SplendorPHB, Fox's CunningPHB, and Owl's WisdomPHB, as the spells. Only one may be active at a time; using another, even on a different target, causes the previous effect to be removed.

Mystic Missile
Least; 1st
AAAAYou can use Magic MissilePHB, as the spell. Additionally, you may fire a single missile, as from the spell, as an Immediate Action.

Omen
Least; 2nd
AAAAYou can use Omen of PerilSC, as the spell, but you do not require any Focus with the invocation.

Scorn Earth
Least; 2nd
AAAAYou can float a foot above the ground. Instead of walking, you glide along, unconcerned with the hard earth or difficult terrain. While you remain within 1 foot of a flat surface of any solid or liquid, you can take normal actions and make normal attacks, and can move at her normal speed (you can even “run” at four times your normal speed or "jump" from your position 1 foot above a surface). However, you have no ability to maintain any altitude greater than 1 foot due to this invocation. You are also considered to be under the effects of Feather FallPHB, as the spell.

Stormcloud
Least; 2nd
AAAAYou can use ThunderheadSC, as the spell. Casting this invocation twice on the same target doubles the duration, and continued casting continues to multiply the duration as normal for multiplier addition rules (i.e. double, then triple, then quadruple, etc.).

Transposition
Least; 2nd
AAAAYou can use Baleful TranspositionSC, as the spell.

Wintry Embrace
Least; 2nd
AAAAYou can use Creeping Cold, as the spell, but without any need for any focus.

Words of Power, Least
Least; 3rd
AAAAYou can use Power Word: FatigueRotD, Power Word: PainRotD, and Power Word: SickenRotD, as the spells.

New Lesser Invocations
Defenestration
Lesser; 4th
AAAAYou can use Defenestrating SphereSC, as the spell.

Elemental Orb
Lesser; 4th
AAAAYou can use Orb of AcidSC, Orb of ColdSC, Orb of ElectricitySC, Orb of FireSC, and Orb of SoundSC, as the spells.

Harkon's Blade
Lesser; 4th
AAAAYou can use Sword of DeceptionSC, as the spell. You may only have one sword at a time; casting this invocation while a sword still exists eliminates that sword in favor of the new one.

Make Way
Lesser; 4th
AAAAYou can use ForcewaveSC, as the spell.

Words of Power, Lesser
Lesser; 4th
AAAAYou can use Power Word: DeafenRotD, Power Word: MaladroitRotD, and Power Word: WeakenRotD, as the spells.

New Greater Invocations
Calling
Greater; 5th
AAAAYou can use Sending, as the spell.

Falling Dream
Greater; 6th
AAAAYou can use Illusory PitSC, as the spell, but it lasts only as long as you concentrate.

Fissure
Greater; 5th
AAAAYou can create a 5 foot wide stone wall up to 10 feet high along a 60 foot line starting from your position. All creatures within the line take 1d6 bludgeoning/piercing damage per 2 levels (maximum 8d6 damage at 16th), are moved to the nearest square on the side of the wall of your choice, and are staggered, unless they make a Reflex save, which halves the damage, allows them to choose which side of the wall they wish to be on, and prevents the staggering. Squares adjacent to the wall are difficult terrain, and the wall lasts for 1 round plus 1 round per 5 levels.

Glaciation
Greater; 6th
AAAAYou can freeze a target solid for one round, such that they can take only mental actions, unless they make a Will save. A frozen target takes 1d6 Cold damage per 2 levels (maximum 8d6 at 16th); any target who takes no Cold damage due to resistance or immunity to Cold damage is also immune to being frozen. A target who was frozen is slowed, as by the spell SlowPHB, for two rounds after thawing out.

Words of Power, Greater
Greater; 6th
AAAAYou can use Power Word: DisableRotD, Power Word: DistractRotD, and Power Word: NauseateRotD, as the spells.

Voodoo Doll
Greater; 6th
AAAAYou can create a voodoo doll of any target within 60 feet; the doll begins in any free square adjacent to you. The doll lasts one round per level, or until the target moves more than 60 feet from the doll. The doll may have up to 8 HP per caster level, but you lose HP equal to one quarter the HP given to the doll. If the doll is killed before the effect ends, the target takes damage equal to its full HP. If the effect ends without the Doll dying, you regain one quarter of the HP it had remaining.
AAAAThe doll is a construct, but does not have immunity to poison, necromancy effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, or effects that require Fortitude saves, though all nonlethal damage dealt to the doll is treated as lethal damage. However, it is immune to any and all status effects, conditions, etc; only HP damage can be applied to it. It cannot be healed or repaired by any means. The doll has no actions and furthermore cannot be moved. The doll has an Armor Class of 0 (and is always treated as flat-footed), no Damage Reduction, no Spell Resistance, a Hardness of 0, and a +0 bonus to all saving throws. Any other defenses the target may have had do not apply to the doll.

New Greatest Invocations
Brewing Storm
Greatest; 8th
AAAAThis invocation creates an ephemeral cloud at a Range of Medium (100 feet + 10 feet per caster level), and the cloud immediately spreads in a radius equal to Close range (25 feet + 5 feet per 2 caster levels). The cloud itself is short-lived - it is gone moments after casting, having no effect on the sight or movement of those within it. Those who were within it when cast, however, gain some of the cloud clinging to to their bodies, and this cloud effects them for one round per level.
AAAAEach round, every creature that was within the cloud at the time it was cast either gains a +1 bonus to AC, or takes a -1 penalty to AC, chosen by you when you cast it. Any creature who does not want to accept these changes is entitled to a Will save each round to prevent that round's changes, though the DC for this save goes up by 1 for every consecutive save the creature has made previously; failing the save resets the DC to its usual value for the next round.
AAAANo creature can be reduced below 10 AC, or below 10 touch AC or 10 AC when flat-footed (though a creature with 10 touch AC or 10 flat-footed AC continues to take penalties to its AC for other situations until all three values are 10). By the same token, this effect can no more than double a creature's AC; once this effect has added as much AC as the creature had without it, it simply maintains that much AC until it wears off.

Master of Physics
Greatest; 8th
AAAAYou can use Telekinetic Sphere, as the spell, except that you must always be within the sphere, and the sphere can only move you with respect to other objects within the sphere. Effectively, it needs to be touching something solid in order to maintain its height, and will otherwise fall, so it can only lift you into the air a distance equal to its own diameter. It can, however, move upwards with you if you have other means of flight, in which case it can move relative to you and more things with respect to you; you are, essentially, the solid surface against which everything else is being moved.

Meteo
Greatest; 9th
AAAAYou can use Meteor Swarm, as the spell.

Spellcaster's Bane
Greatest; 7th
AAAAYou may attempt to counterspell a spellcaster as an Immediate Action, as if you had cast Greater Dispel Magic. The spellcaster gains a +2 bonus on his opposed Caster Level check for every consecutive round you have successfully counterspelled him; this bonus reverts to +0 if you fail to counterspell him (either because you did not try or because he succeeded on the check).

Words of Power, Greatest
Greatest; 9th
AAAAYou can use Power Word: KillPHB, Power Word: PetrifyRotD, and Power Word: StunPHB, as the spells.

Void Magic
Greatest; 9th
AAAAYou can use Antimagic Field, but with a Range of Close (25 ft. + 5 ft. per two caster levels), and with a Duration of Concentration.

Credits
The image is slightly adapted from Invoker (http://ajinak.deviantart.com/art/The-invoker-91468897) by ajinak. All credit to her for the image.

Lateral
2010-05-26, 05:46 PM
Hmm... So this class is based on alchemy and invocations?

...not bad, but spellvials seem a little expensive for regular combat. So, this guy has at-will invocation casting, which is his main method of combat. Problem is, the class has very little reliability in combat, as invocations tend to be situational. Often, one of these guys would be unable to contribute to the battle. DFA's make up for this with dragonbreath (I don't know anything about Warlocks), so you may want to give it a reliable combat ability. That said, this has some lethal combo potential. How long do Invocations last? Which ones can target allies and which are only you? I'm seeing lethal potential with Ebon Eyes plus Darkness plus Rogue.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-26, 05:57 PM
Hmm... So this class is based on alchemy and invocations?

...not bad, but spellvials seem a little expensive for regular combat. So, this guy has at-will invocation casting, which is his main method of combat. Problem is, the class has very little reliability in combat, as invocations tend to be situational. Often, one of these guys would be unable to contribute to the battle. DFA's make up for this with dragonbreath (I don't know anything about Warlocks), so you may want to give it a reliable combat ability. That said, this has some lethal combo potential. How long do Invocations last? Which ones can target allies and which are only you? I'm seeing lethal potential with Ebon Eyes plus Darkness plus Rogue.
Well, I'm pretty sure I can't reprint the text of the Invocations in Complete Arcane or Dragon Magic, so for the Invocations as they currently exist, you'll probably need those two books. As for an attack option, I intend to add new Invocations which do damage (and other effects) that the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept don't have because their Eldritch Blast and Breath Weapon cover that need entirely. But I don't want to add a specific scaling attack like Eldritch Blast or the Breath Weapon because this class is specifically supposed to be a more magely invocation-user, compared to those two that I see as something of hybrids.

As for the cost of Spellvials, that feature was taken from the Alchemist Savant Prestige Class in Magic of Eberron - already it's improved because it allows area-effects and because you get it at level 2 as opposed to level 7 when you can have Alchemist Savant 2 and get the feature. Alchemist Savant's not an especially powerful Prestige Class, but I didn't want to completely obsolesce it... thoughts?

Lateral
2010-05-28, 03:56 PM
It's a prestige class. Not even a very common or good prestige class. Who cares if you make it suck?

DragoonWraith
2010-05-28, 03:59 PM
Fair enough; removed the price increase.

Any other thoughts on the class features?

Also, added fluff.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-13, 06:06 PM
Having gotten permission from Roland to continue this thread, here's an update: I've added quite a few new Invocations. They don't completely replace the Eldritch Blast/Breath Weapon in terms of blasty type spells, but I'm working on that. Any input?

NecroticPunch
2010-07-13, 06:42 PM
It's look like a steady, well made class. I really like it. And it gets lots of invocations. Actually, I'm wondering if it gets too many Invocations. But it probably doesn't, due to the limited list.

And the new blasty Invocations are good, but not too good. You have balance on your finger, dancing.

Edit: Actually, I wish it had some (more) illusions in it. That would be real cool.

blackmage
2010-07-14, 11:11 AM
I've been interested and intrigued by the warlock and invocation classes in general for a while now. Now, I realize that this is really the class I wanted. Thank you.

That said, I'm not as much a fan of the potion/spellvial class features. This is just a personal preference, not a design/balance complaint. So, I'm wondering what kind of alternate class features might be reasonable for the class, gonna throw out a few ideas. Some of these might be feats instead.

-Some different crafting feats, or bonus feats that can be used only on crafting, but I'm not sure if thats more powerful than the spellvial stuff.
-Able to replace an invocation for free 1/week. This seems like a neat little quirk to me, with a long enough duration that you don't feel like a wizard memorizing spells each day, but back a little of the flexibility losing spellvials would remove.
-Able to use invocations without verbal/somatic component, limited times per day.
-Ability to learn metamagic versions of invocations. Require character to have metamagic feat, and then can learn the invocation in a higher invocation slot to permanently have that metamagic applied to it. I like this, because it feels more like a wizard/sorcerer, but I don't know if it would be too strong, etc.
-Something to assist the Secret Script class feature? An improved version at later levels? Allow you to re-write a scroll, so it casts a different spell?

DragoonWraith
2010-08-21, 06:57 PM
Sorry, blackmage, I didn't see your post. My basic response is, well, do what you like. I rather like the potion/spellvial features, myself, and nothing particularly obvious comes to mind as an ACF, so I don't really plan on adding any. Not saying that it'd be bad or anything, just that I don't have any particular ideas for it and I'm not particularly interested in putting much effort into coming up with any.

If you wanted to post some actual ACFs (like, written out and statted), I'd be more than happy to look them over, though, if you like, let you know if I think it's a fair swap.

Gorgondantess
2010-08-21, 07:04 PM
This is very cool. I like.
Also, you added defenestrating sphere. I love you.:smallbiggrin:

DragoonWraith
2010-08-21, 07:09 PM
Yeah, Defenstrating Sphere and Telekinetic Sphere were two that I always wanted to use as at-will abilities. Scorn Earth, too, for that matter.

Latronis
2010-08-22, 03:21 AM
well i haven't really finished looking over everything yet, but one thing that really jumps out is..

BECOMING AN INVOKER

on a base class

DragoonWraith
2010-08-22, 07:42 AM
Well, what does Wizards usually call that section on races and abilities and stuff?

Roc Ness
2010-08-22, 08:45 AM
Needs some sort of antimagic field invocation...

DragoonWraith
2010-08-22, 09:10 AM
That's not a bad idea at all; I like it!

Roc Ness
2010-08-22, 09:39 AM
:smallbiggrin: I like helping.

How about this:
Greatest Invocation
Null Field
Greatest; 8th
You can use Antimagic Field, as the spell, except that it no longer has to be centred on yourself, and you may place the field anywhere within a range of medium.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-22, 09:40 AM
Whoa. I dunno about that; slinging AMFs is one of those things that people tend to go out of their way to do, and I feel like an AMF that you can turn on and off at will is pretty solid, even if it is around you...

Roc Ness
2010-08-22, 09:46 AM
Make it non-dismissable?

Fako
2010-08-22, 12:01 PM
You could have each active field reduce your effective caster level, reducing the invocations you can use? Either that, or only allow them to maintain them while they concentrate?

I like the class; I have a player using a Gnome Invoker as a henchmen. I'll let you know how it goes.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-22, 12:50 PM
Ooh, I do like using Concentration for it. OK, so duration of Concentration, Range of Close - how's that sound?

Fako
2010-08-22, 11:55 PM
Ooh, I do like using Concentration for it. OK, so duration of Concentration, Range of Close - how's that sound?

Sounds decent, but I think the invocation would need a bit more oomph to function as a greatest... how about this:

----------
Mana Magnet
Greatest, 8th
Range: Close
Target: 30' radius area and personal
Duration: Concentration

Using your knowledge of the arcane arts, you create a one-way conduit between you and one area within range, stealing its magic. For the duration of this invocation, the area chosen is treated as being under the effects of an Antimagic Field spell, while all of your invocations receive a +X bonus to accuracy rolls and save DCs due to the extra magic being added to them.
-----------

Probably still kinda meh, but I'm not sure what exactly you could do with it...

DragoonWraith
2010-08-23, 11:38 AM
I would have thought that AMF - especially one that doesn't have to be on you - would be considered extremely powerful. That's a pretty big deal, in my book...

Fako
2010-08-23, 10:10 PM
I would have thought that AMF - especially one that doesn't have to be on you - would be considered extremely powerful. That's a pretty big deal, in my book...

To be honest, it probably is. I haven't had the opportunity to play higher levels, so I haven't seen an AMF in action. I was going off of the duration being Concentration, which is going to eat up your move action each round (assuming you don't use feats/items to adjust it).

Roc Ness
2010-08-24, 02:11 AM
I think just having an Antimagic field that can be placed anywhere is good enough.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-24, 09:10 AM
I'm concerned that it's more than good enough...

Latronis
2010-08-24, 09:28 PM
Well, what does Wizards usually call that section on races and abilities and stuff?

Making An Invoker

or sometimes they split it up into sub-sections under INVOKER like background, races, role, adventure, etc.

Becoming An Invoker implies PrC because you start as something else and move into it.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-24, 11:05 PM
Fair enough, thanks.

OK, tomorrow I will work on incorporating all of the suggestions. Thank you all!

Sophistemon
2010-08-28, 01:34 PM
I'm very interested in seeing where this goes.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-28, 03:05 PM
OK, I've added Void Magic and fixed "Becoming an Invoker"; now it's "Making an Invoker". Any more suggestions?

Sophistemon
2010-08-30, 05:00 PM
Maybe a prestige class?

You've already intimated that it can make use of prestige classes that weren't designed with it in mind, but something tailor-made for the Invoker would be interesting. But that's less a suggestion than me being curious, so take it as you will.

Niezck
2010-08-30, 07:33 PM
Not so much a suggestion as a comment - I take it someone's played a fair bit of DotA? :smalltongue:

Kael, Fissure, Make Way, Glaciation and Brewing Storm all seem quite familiar ... :smallwink:

And yeah, a speciic prestige class might be nice.

Perhaps an invoker/arcane dual progression PrC with some funky abilities that intertwine the two systems? But make it specific to invokers and not warlocks or dragon whatsits.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-30, 08:14 PM
Not so much a suggestion as a comment - I take it someone's played a fair bit of DotA? :smalltongue:

Kael, Fissure, Make Way, Glaciation and Brewing Storm all seem quite familiar ... :smallwink:
Yuuup... though Brewing Storm was based on Demented Shaman from HoN rather than Dazzle from DotA, and Make Way... I'm not sure what hero that's similar to...


And yeah, a speciic prestige class might be nice.

Perhaps an invoker/arcane dual progression PrC with some funky abilities that intertwine the two systems? But make it specific to invokers and not warlocks or dragon whatsits.
Hrm. I'll think about it.


I find it ironic that this class has gotten so much attention lately - when I first wrote it, it was just a quick, simple thing that was meant to fill a "gap" I felt existed with the existing invocation-using classes, and it was received with little comment. Then I post a few new invocations, and there's a lot of interest - which is cool, I'm glad to have it, but we've now more than outstripped my actual ideas for the class.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-27, 12:00 PM
I'm hopefully going to be playing this class in a Pbp on these boards. I was wondering what you would consider the potion/scroll abilities to be 'worth'. I rather dislike crafting and, in your opinion as the creator, what level of abilities could they be replaced with?

Sent this as a PM to avoid thread necromancy, didn't want your topic to get closed.
Per the rules, thread necromancy occurs when the last post is more than a month and a half old; my last post in this thread was just under a month ago, so this isn't necromancy (and a recent change allows Homebrew thread-starters to resurrect threads without necromancy, but that's a separate issue). Since my PM inbox is full, I've moved this to the thread.

Honestly, my response to you is pretty much what it was to blackmage:


I've been interested and intrigued by the warlock and invocation classes in general for a while now. Now, I realize that this is really the class I wanted. Thank you.

That said, I'm not as much a fan of the potion/spellvial class features. This is just a personal preference, not a design/balance complaint. So, I'm wondering what kind of alternate class features might be reasonable for the class, gonna throw out a few ideas. Some of these might be feats instead.

-Some different crafting feats, or bonus feats that can be used only on crafting, but I'm not sure if thats more powerful than the spellvial stuff.
-Able to replace an invocation for free 1/week. This seems like a neat little quirk to me, with a long enough duration that you don't feel like a wizard memorizing spells each day, but back a little of the flexibility losing spellvials would remove.
-Able to use invocations without verbal/somatic component, limited times per day.
-Ability to learn metamagic versions of invocations. Require character to have metamagic feat, and then can learn the invocation in a higher invocation slot to permanently have that metamagic applied to it. I like this, because it feels more like a wizard/sorcerer, but I don't know if it would be too strong, etc.
-Something to assist the Secret Script class feature? An improved version at later levels? Allow you to re-write a scroll, so it casts a different spell?
Sorry, blackmage, I didn't see your post. My basic response is, well, do what you like. I rather like the potion/spellvial features, myself, and nothing particularly obvious comes to mind as an ACF, so I don't really plan on adding any. Not saying that it'd be bad or anything, just that I don't have any particular ideas for it and I'm not particularly interested in putting much effort into coming up with any.

If you wanted to post some actual ACFs (like, written out and statted), I'd be more than happy to look them over, though, if you like, let you know if I think it's a fair swap.

Mostly, I think you need to be careful about ditching them. This class is on the lower end of the power scale as it is, I'd think, though probably better than the Warlock, but one of the main features of the Warlock that allows it to function as well as it does is the ability to craft any scroll, given time. The potion brewing features are designed to replicate that in a slightly different way, and without it your versatility takes a very big hit. At the same time, crafting has obvious limitations.

One thing you might consider is some sort of "automatic" crafting, like you can start each day with a limited number of potions or something. I'd talk to your DM about that though.

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 06:40 PM
I'd say they're a fair step up from warlocks, until hellfire glaivelocks are thrown into the picture. They have a fair bit more invocations of each level, enough that they can spend an invocation of each level to get attacks rivaling or exceeding a warlock's (excepting hellfire + eldritch glaive) and still have as many or more for other abilities. This isn't a bad or good thing, just a statement of opinion.

That said I wanted to confirm something: can they share the effects of their invocations with a familiar? Normally you can't share Spell-like abilities with familiars (RAW is spells only) although few people 1) realize, 2) care but I thought I'd confirm it.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-27, 06:58 PM
Yes. I'll indicate something to that effect in the description.

Roc Ness
2010-09-27, 07:22 PM
Hey Dragoonwraith, power-wise, how do you think the invoker compares to the wizard? It definiely seems more useful than wizards at low-level, but when does the wizard pull ahead, if it does so at all?

DragoonWraith
2010-09-27, 07:53 PM
I'm going to say 3rd level. At that point, the Wizard has "enough" spell slots per day, and more importantly Glitterdust is better than any of the Least Invocations by a good margin.

Roc Ness
2010-09-27, 10:13 PM
Wow... that's rather early. What tier do you think the Invoker would be at 20th, then?

DragoonWraith
2010-09-27, 10:17 PM
Tier 3. The effects are just not Tier 2 material, and the versatility of a Tier 1 character is clearly not there at all.

The only effects I'm even remotely concerned about are Greatest Words of Power (but I really doubt those'll be a problem, what with being Mind-Affecting), and Void Magic (which is potentially quite a bit stronger than the other Greatest Invocations; I'm not entirely sure). Oh, and Lesser Words of Power, I suppose, at the other end of the spectrum, since Power Word: Pain is a bit OP at 1st level - but then it's a 1st level Spell, so I'm not exactly adding anything new that wasn't already there.

Roc Ness
2010-09-27, 10:40 PM
Power Word Pain only seems powerful at 1st level, maybe second. Any higher and it might be pointless when there are other ways to kill enemies faster.

I've noticed that Power Word Fatigue could be a problem though... in two rounds, one enemy gets unavoidable exhaustion.

Zaydos
2010-09-28, 12:06 AM
Well I'm making one to apply to a PbP with and I must say that at Lv 4 choosing Invocations is difficult. There are a lot of interesting ones (although game mechanically I should probably change Least Words of Power for Mystic Missile to give me a nice reliable amount of damage from a farther range (low hp means melee = splat).

DragoonWraith
2010-09-28, 12:46 AM
Power Word Pain only seems powerful at 1st level, maybe second. Any higher and it might be pointless when there are other ways to kill enemies faster.

I've noticed that Power Word Fatigue could be a problem though... in two rounds, one enemy gets unavoidable exhaustion.
The Power Word spells are all kind of dubious, because the applicable defense is rather strange. Still, PW:Pain gets a lot of complaints on the boards; never heard anyone really complain about PW:Fatigue.


Well I'm making one to apply to a PbP with and I must say that at Lv 4 choosing Invocations is difficult. There are a lot of interesting ones (although game mechanically I should probably change Least Words of Power for Mystic Missile to give me a nice reliable amount of damage from a farther range (low hp means melee = splat).
Hehe, that sounds like a job well done to me!

Roc Ness
2010-09-28, 02:25 AM
The Power Word spells are all kind of dubious, because the applicable defense is rather strange. Still, PW:Pain gets a lot of complaints on the boards; never heard anyone really complain about PW:Fatigue.
I've only seen PW:Pain get complained about in the 1st level dungeons/arenas, because an unavoidable constant 1d6 is a lot at first level. PW:Fatigue isn't normally a problem, except this time you get an endless amount of 'em...


Hehe, that sounds like a job well done to me!

:smallamused:

EDIT: Oh yeah, last question from me:

>.>

<.<

Are you going to make a divine version of this class? Think of the balance issues it could solve... :smallwink:

DragoonWraith
2010-09-28, 11:46 AM
Oh yeah, last question from me:

>.>

<.<

Are you going to make a divine version of this class? Think of the balance issues it could solve... :smallwink:

No, my divine class uses totally different mechanics.

Realms of Chaos
2010-09-28, 02:30 PM
Actually, this class seems like a very high Tier 3 class, if not a low Tier 2. :smallconfused:

By 20th level, this class can use Scribe and Secret Script in combination to basically get any spell in scroll form and to use all 5th level and lower scrolls practically at will.
While this requires some resources, can be dispelled, and isn't as impressive as an archivist/wizard/mystic theurge, the ability to get spells from all spell lists up to a decent spell level and use them with impunity greatly propels the power/versatility of this class.

Seriously, with the proper gear, rewards, and/or created items, you may end up with 50+ support scrolls in your HHH that you can switch between with 2 move actions (one if you're willing to just drop the previous scroll instead of stowing it away) that you could use pretty much at will. In short, this guy could very easily be built to be more "batman" than a traditional batman wizard with uncanny forethought and alacritous cognition. :smalleek:

DragoonWraith
2010-09-28, 04:37 PM
Hmm, yeah, running the numbers, the DCs on Secret Script don't scale like I'd like them to. Unlimited usage of an almost unlimited number of low-CL 5th and lower level spells is fairly powerful (though still not as good as what a Sorcerer gets, it is definitely enough to put the Invoker into that high-3/low-2 Tier you're referring to). I'll look into fixing how the DCs calculate. I'm considering requiring you to add your own CL, rather than the scroll's CL, to the DC, even for lower-CL scrolls, but that puts the Invoker in the rather dumb position of actually getting worse at what he does as he levels, unless he puts points into Forgery. I shall think on it.

Zaydos
2010-09-28, 04:42 PM
Maybe make the DC be based off of double the CL of the scroll? That's still an auto success on 3rd level and lower spells; 80% chance with 4th, 55% with 5th, 30% with 6th and a 5% with 7th.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-28, 05:00 PM
I'm actually thinking of just making it a flat 5% chance, and strip the dependency on Forgery. I mean, that's pretty much what I want.

Maybe I'll put a minimum number of ranks in Forgery to use it on scrolls of a certain CL; I rather like that idea.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I've changed it to this.

blackmage
2010-09-28, 05:01 PM
How about saying any given scroll can only be used with secret script 1/day, any further attempts automatically fail? I think that and requiring a certain forgery rank to attempt X spell level would reign this in a lot.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-28, 05:04 PM
Hrm, that's not bad either. Hmm, hmm. Definitely willing to take input on that: do people like blackmage's way better, or my new one?

blackmage
2010-09-28, 05:11 PM
I'm advocating both, and maybe doing away with the rolling. To use secret script on, say, a 3rd level scroll you would need a Forgery rank of 8 or 10 or something. You could then 'cast' from any given scroll once per day without consuming it. You could have 3 scrolls of Fireball or whatever, giving you three 'free' fireballs each day...


...hmmm. If the above idea is too strong, keep the Forgery ranks requirement but instead of useable once on each scroll, useable a total number of times each day equal to Int modifier?

Jarrick
2010-09-28, 05:54 PM
I had planned on eliminating wizards from an upcoming campaign (too many times has the game fallen victim to wizards with my group.) and this looks like an excellent substitute. Plus I like its flavor better. This class is cool. Period. Keep up the good work, I look forward to its completion. :smallbiggrin:

Zaydos
2010-09-28, 05:57 PM
I like blackmage's suggestion.

peterpaulrubens
2010-09-28, 06:35 PM
Blackmage's basic idea gets my vote.

I'd think that a limitation of only once per scroll per day and a total limit of 2x Int mod per day would be sufficient. That gives you a solid pool of reusable scrolls while limiting your versatility to more reasonable levels - i.e. if you want to cast a spell twice in a day, you need to burn some WBL to make two scrolls. Or, ya know.. actually read (i.e. consume) the scroll.

I'd also put a minimum rank of Forgery to use a given spell level - 3x spell level seems okayish. At 18th level that lets you use Secret Script on 7th level spells, if you've maxed Forgery, but it never works on 8th level spells or above.

Sophistemon
2010-09-28, 07:04 PM
I'm pleased to see that you're back to working on this again.

I'm eager to see what happens.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-28, 08:34 PM
I had planned on eliminating wizards from an upcoming campaign (too many times has the game fallen victim to wizards with my group.) and this looks like an excellent substitute. Plus I like its flavor better. This class is cool. Period. Keep up the good work, I look forward to its completion. :smallbiggrin:
Whoo! Nothing makes me happier than to hear of my stuff getting used!


I like blackmage's suggestion.
Blackmage's basic idea gets my vote.

I'd think that a limitation of only once per scroll per day and a total limit of 2x Int mod per day would be sufficient. That gives you a solid pool of reusable scrolls while limiting your versatility to more reasonable levels - i.e. if you want to cast a spell twice in a day, you need to burn some WBL to make two scrolls. Or, ya know.. actually read (i.e. consume) the scroll.

I'd also put a minimum rank of Forgery to use a given spell level - 3x spell level seems okayish. At 18th level that lets you use Secret Script on 7th level spells, if you've maxed Forgery, but it never works on 8th level spells or above.
Hmm, OK, I'll give this some thought. Currently thinking Caster Level + Spell Level (works out to 3*SL-1, for scrolls made at minimum CL), 1/scroll/day, max Int+Wis scrolls per day (because I want that comment about Wisdom in the intro to be a little more true). Sound good?


I'm pleased to see that you're back to working on this again.

I'm eager to see what happens.
Again, this is bizarre to me. It was meant to be a quick simple class! Some classes I make and hope for a lot of input, which I sometimes get and sometimes don't, and then other classes I don't really expect much feedback and usually, I don't get it. This is a little strange. At any rate, I'm glad people like it!

Roc Ness
2010-09-28, 09:39 PM
Again, this is bizarre to me. It was meant to be a quick simple class! Some classes I make and hope for a lot of input, which I sometimes get and sometimes don't, and then other classes I don't really expect much feedback and usually, I don't get it. This is a little strange. At any rate, I'm glad people like it!

The world is a strange and unpredictable place. That said, I'm going to try and predict it anyway: You took something many thought of as a problem and, even if unintentionally, fixed it in a simple way everyone thought of as acceptable.

Realms of Chaos
2010-09-28, 11:32 PM
If you want to please the power-gaming crowd out there, you could use your normal version except with a normal forgery check and increasing the DC by +1 or +2 for each success. :smallbiggrin:

blackmage
2010-09-29, 12:16 PM
Whoo! Nothing makes me happier than to hear of my stuff getting used!


I really want to play this class. I like invocation-based casting much more than vancian, so this class makes me quite happy. Like Roc Ness says, you've made an elegant solution to a problem, so many people are happy. :)

NecroticPunch
2010-09-29, 06:14 PM
Must... resist... awesomeness.

No really, this class is awesome. Though it would be much more awesome if there were some prestige classes. :smallwink:

DragoonWraith
2010-09-29, 06:32 PM
The world is a strange and unpredictable place. That said, I'm going to try and predict it anyway: You took something many thought of as a problem and, even if unintentionally, fixed it in a simple way everyone thought of as acceptable.
I really want to play this class. I like invocation-based casting much more than vancian, so this class makes me quite happy. Like Roc Ness says, you've made an elegant solution to a problem, so many people are happy. :)
Now, do you guys mean the problem that I initially set out to fix - the lack of a "true caster" among the Invocation-users - or do you mean the general problem that is the Wizard? Collatin' data, as they say.


If you want to please the power-gaming crowd out there, you could use your normal version except with a normal forgery check and increasing the DC by +1 or +2 for each success. :smallbiggrin:
Uh, yeah, how about not? That sounds like a terrible plan, hehe.


Must... resist... awesomeness.

No really, this class is awesome. Though it would be much more awesome if there were some prestige classes. :smallwink:
Whoo, glad to have provided the awesome!

As for Prestige Classes - there are a lot of Prestige Classes for the Invoker. Off the top of my head, you have Archmage, Loremaster, and with some multiclassing, Arcane Trickster, Cerebremancer, and Mystic Theurge, heh. Remember, the Invoker can use pretty much any (Arcane) spellcasting PrC (unless it requires a specific spell that does not appear as an Invocation). Hell, the Invoker could even qualify as a Deadwood more easily than just about any other class, excepting possibly Druids, but Druids have a lot more to lose.

Roc Ness
2010-09-29, 06:51 PM
Now, do you guys mean the problem that I initially set out to fix - the lack of a "true caster" among the Invocation-users - or do you mean the general problem that is the Wizard? Collatin' data, as they say.

Well, you're successfully appealling to more than crowd, so I'd say both. :smallsmile:


As for Prestige Classes - there are a lot of Prestige Classes for the Invoker. Off the top of my head, you have Archmage, Loremaster, and with some multiclassing, Arcane Trickster, Cerebremancer, and Mystic Theurge, heh. Remember, the Invoker can use pretty much any (Arcane) spellcasting PrC (unless it requires a specific spell that does not appear as an Invocation). Hell, the Invoker could even qualify as a Deadwood more easily than just about any other class, excepting possibly Druids, but Druids have a lot more to lose.

Arcane Trickster Invoker must be incredible fun... :smallbiggrin:

Realms of Chaos
2010-09-29, 07:33 PM
Uh, yeah, how about not? That sounds like a terrible plan, hehe.

It is. It REEAAALLLLY is. :smallamused:
I just felt obligated to say it for some reason.
Maybe I'm a powergamer when the moon is full...

Sophistemon
2010-09-29, 09:34 PM
Again, this is bizarre to me. It was meant to be a quick simple class! Some classes I make and hope for a lot of input, which I sometimes get and sometimes don't, and then other classes I don't really expect much feedback and usually, I don't get it. This is a little strange. At any rate, I'm glad people like it!
I don't know art homebrew, but I know what I like, and I like this.

I'm still looking for a class feature that let's me nix the familiar in favor of something else, but I'm drawing blanks so far.

Of course, that's a minor grievance.

Top-notch work all around, DragoonWraith

Zaydos
2010-09-29, 09:44 PM
I don't know art homebrew, but I know what I like, and I like this.

I'm still looking for a class feature that let's me nix the familiar in favor of something else, but I'm drawing blanks so far.

Of course, that's a minor grievance.

Top-notch work all around, DragoonWraith

If flaws are allowed there's a flaw (two in fact) that are you lose your familiar, here's a feat.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-29, 10:16 PM
I don't know art homebrew, but I know what I like, and I like this.

Top-notch work all around, DragoonWraith
Woot! Thanks.


I'm still looking for a class feature that let's me nix the familiar in favor of something else, but I'm drawing blanks so far.

Of course, that's a minor grievance.
By the class feature equivalency rules, any class feature that allows you to trade any class's familiar for something else will also be available to the Invoker. Of course a lot of them aren't really that useful (the Sorcerer's Metamagic Specialist doesn't do an Invoker any good, nor does the Wizard's Specialist ACFs since those have the additional requirement of Specializing), but there's gotta be some... You can get a half-level Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard), for example, but that's not so great. Better, in PHB2 there's a Ranger ACF that loses his Animal Companion for "Distracting Attack", which allows your allies to treat as Flanked anyone that you damage. Only for one attack, which is a shame, but you could hit a group of enemies with an AoE Invocation, so they call count as Flanked, and then an Archer-Rogue could nail all of them with Sneak Attack arrows using Manyshot or whatever. Could be kind of neat.

Zaydos
2010-09-29, 10:41 PM
Woot! Thanks.


By the class feature equivalency rules, any class feature that allows you to trade any class's familiar for something else will also be available to the Invoker. Of course a lot of them aren't really that useful (the Sorcerer's Metamagic Specialist doesn't do an Invoker any good, nor does the Wizard's Specialist ACFs since those have the additional requirement of Specializing), but there's gotta be some... You can get a half-level Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard), for example, but that's not so great. Better, in PHB2 there's a Ranger ACF that loses his Animal Companion for "Distracting Attack", which allows your allies to treat as Flanked anyone that you damage. Only for one attack, which is a shame, but you could hit a group of enemies with an AoE Invocation, so they call count as Flanked, and then an Archer-Rogue could nail all of them with Sneak Attack arrows using Manyshot or whatever. Could be kind of neat.

Manyshot doesn't work for that. I just (in the last 3 minutes) had to check the Rules Compendium for a PbP, it specifies that it only works on the first attack from Manyshot. It made me a little sad.

Roc Ness
2010-09-29, 11:09 PM
Greater Manyshot. :smallwink:

DragoonWraith
2010-09-29, 11:31 PM
Or just a full-attack.

Fako
2010-09-29, 11:32 PM
Or Rapid Shot, or Haste. Iterative attacks work, multiple projectiles as one attack do not.

Been using the Invoker Cohort in a few fights now. The player's primary invocations (at level 7) are Body Augmentation and Mystic Missile. Not strong by any means, but it's doing a good job helping his rogue's attacks land.

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 12:23 AM
Oh yeah I just remembered a question that I've had.

Normally Spellcraft (Forgery) gives you a synergy bonus to UMD with Scrolls; does an Invoker using Forgery to use a scroll get any synergy bonuses from other skills?

DragoonWraith
2010-09-30, 09:40 AM
Yeah, I'd say "bonuses to checks made to activate Scrolls" count, "bonuses to UMD in general" don't, personally. By RAW... I suspect it doesn't, though.

Epsilon Rose
2010-09-30, 12:18 PM
Do invoker buffs last for 24 hours like warlock ones?

DragoonWraith
2010-09-30, 12:30 PM
I'm going to say yes, if only because keeping track of their durations out of combat ("well, I've been re-upping it just before it runs out all day; how much duration do I have left on the current one?") is just tedious and annoying, and doesn't add much to the game. I suppose the ones that are round/level at level 1 would mean you spend all of your actions keeping it up, but meh, I don't really think that's meaningful.

Sophistemon
2010-09-30, 05:09 PM
If flaws are allowed there's a flaw (two in fact) that are you lose your familiar, here's a feat.
I'm aware, but I was looking for something with a bit more punch to it than a feat. That's my fallback option, though, in case I don't find something that I like.


By the class feature equivalency rules, any class feature that allows you to trade any class's familiar for something else will also be available to the Invoker. Of course a lot of them aren't really that useful (the Sorcerer's Metamagic Specialist doesn't do an Invoker any good, nor does the Wizard's Specialist ACFs since those have the additional requirement of Specializing), but there's gotta be some... You can get a half-level Animal Companion, for example, but that's not so great. Better, in PHB2 there's a Ranger ACF that loses his Animal Companion for "Distracting Attack", which allows your allies to treat as Flanked anyone that you damage. Only for one attack, which is a shame, but you could hit a group of enemies with an AoE Invocation, so they call count as Flanked, and then an Archer-Rogue could nail all of them with Sneak Attack arrows using Manyshot or whatever. Could be kind of neat.
Hrmn. That's an interesting idea. Thanks for the heads-up.

NecroticPunch
2010-09-30, 05:28 PM
As for Prestige Classes - there are a lot of Prestige Classes for the Invoker. Off the top of my head, you have Archmage, Loremaster, and with some multiclassing, Arcane Trickster, Cerebremancer, and Mystic Theurge, heh. Remember, the Invoker can use pretty much any (Arcane) spellcasting PrC (unless it requires a specific spell that does not appear as an Invocation). Hell, the Invoker could even qualify as a Deadwood more easily than just about any other class, excepting possibly Druids, but Druids have a lot more to lose.

Yeah, but it would be awesome for there to be specific prestige classes for the invoker. :smallwink::smallwink::hint::hint:

blackmage
2010-09-30, 05:38 PM
You should make one! Or, at least suggest a direction for such a PrC.

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 05:50 PM
What about an Arch-Mage style PrC for Invokers? Not sure how it'd work game mechanically.

Epsilon Rose
2010-09-30, 06:18 PM
Or perhaps one that focuses on messing with pre-existing magic or the spells of others?

DragoonWraith
2010-09-30, 09:07 PM
Yeah, but it would be awesome for there to be specific prestige classes for the invoker. :smallwink::smallwink::hint::hint:
Heh, you're welcome to make one! The only one I can see doing, and even them I'm not wild about actually doing it, is an Arcane/Invoker PrC, since you wouldn't be able to qualify for Ultimate Magus or Eldritch Theurge.


What about an Arch-Mage style PrC for Invokers? Not sure how it'd work game mechanically.
Or perhaps one that focuses on messing with pre-existing magic or the spells of others?
On the other hand, these are pretty sweet ideas.

Roc Ness
2010-09-30, 09:13 PM
Archmage style PRC would actually be pretty easy. 5 levels of: "Lose one Invocation known of X level, gain X special ability."

DragoonWraith
2010-09-30, 09:36 PM
Yeah, but that hurts a lot more than Archmage does. A lot.

Thugorp
2010-09-30, 11:01 PM
Sorry I don't have time to actually read through all of the other comments just yet(though I will soon), that said I am sorry if what I am about to say has already been said.

This class actually seems a bit over powered on one side and a bit... unwieldy at the other.

First the power side:
Giving the Invoker the ability to scribe any scroll as long as he has double the caster level of the spell he is trying to scribe(level 10 invoker for level 5 spell(same as anyone else by-the-by)) means that in EVERY case the Invoker has access to FAR more spells than ANY wizard or any other spell caster for that matter. Even if the text was edited so that the Invoker could only scribe arcane scrolls he/she still has access to more spells than a wizard, because a wizard is limited to only the spells in his/her spell book(which should never bee all of them).

Second, potions up to 9th. level: First, I would like to say, that I really do like the idea of spellvials. Wotc never published ANYTHING even approaching an offensive use for Brew Potion and I have thought that that was a shame for a long wile(actually for R.P. reasons). Further I agree that people should be able to make potions for spells levels higher than third under the right circumstances. I even think that it should be possible for people with no overt magical ability to brew some potions under the right circumstances(and maybe that it shouldn't cost anything in xp...). However there does have to be a limit somewhere. The reason, Wotc, declared that a brewer had to actually know the spell he was trying to bottle was to make sure that everyone couldn't do everything. The reason they limited it to third level spells was likely a fail-safe on the first restriction(also to make sure fighters still needed spell casters). Finally the reason they made it, so you could only brew defensive potions was because they were stupid(it may have also been a flavor thing*said under breath*). That said, if you remove both the level restriction AND the having to know the spell you want to brew restriction, at the same time, you run into a problem. Removing either is fine, but removing both means that again, you can now cast more spells than a level 30 mistic theurge. ... DAMB I AM OUT OF TIME WILL EDDIT TO FINISH LATER.

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 11:07 PM
The cost is prohibitive, though. A 9th level potion costs 7650 GP for a 1 time effect and you don't get it before 18th level. Edit: That's the market price, the cost to create it is only 3825 GP but 306 XP each time.

As for scrolls; check out warlocks. They have trouble making Divine Scrolls (the DC is 15 higher) but they can still do it, or make any wand/staff (which is better). They're still Tier 4.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-30, 11:32 PM
Sorry I don't have time to actually read through all of the other comments just yet(though I will soon), that said I am sorry if what I am about to say has already been said.
As far as I know, these are pretty much original comments, heh. At any rate, repetition is not really the end of the world - if a lot of people are saying something, that's a good indication that something's wrong.


This class actually seems a bit over powered on one side and a bit... unwieldy at the other.
I really doubt this class is overpowered. Unwieldy, possibly.


First the power side:
Giving the Invoker the ability to scribe any scroll as long as he has double the caster level of the spell he is trying to scribe(level 10 invoker for level 5 spell(same as anyone else by-the-by)) means that in EVERY case the Invoker has access to FAR more spells than ANY wizard or any other spell caster for that matter. Even if the text was edited so that the Invoker could only scribe arcane scrolls he/she still has access to more spells than a wizard, because a wizard is limited to only the spells in his/her spell book(which should never bee all of them).
Warlock 12 is the same class feature, except without the cap - if he could hit not-so-high UMD check, he can scribe and use the Scroll. And Warlocks really aren't that great. Basically, yeah, it's huge access - but the amount of time it takes to get that access and the power you give up paying for it more than counters that.


Second, potions up to 9th. level: First, I would like to say, that I really do like the idea of spellvials. Wotc never published ANYTHING even approaching an offensive use for Brew Potion and I have thought that that was a shame for a long wile(actually for R.P. reasons).
Actually, the spellvial thing comes from an semi-obscure PrC from Magic of Eberron. And you could always use Brew Potion to make Alchemist's Fire or whatever, not that that was ever a particularly good idea.


Further I agree that people should be able to make potions for spells levels higher than third under the right circumstances.
Your emphasis of that last bit is worrisome; I assume it's coming up. (I assume this because I cheated and read your post first, but whatever)


I even think that it should be possible for people with no overt magical ability to brew some potions under the right circumstances(and maybe that it shouldn't cost anything in xp...).
Agreed, though that's clearly not the case here.


However there does have to be a limit somewhere. The reason, Wotc, declared that a brewer had to actually know the spell he was trying to bottle was to make sure that everyone couldn't do everything. The reason they limited it to third level spells was likely a fail-safe on the first restriction(also to make sure fighters still needed spell casters).
There is no worry, at all, that Fighters need spellcasters in D&D 3.5. Just because WotC did something doesn't immediately convince me, either, especially when I consciously changed it, because WotC has a lot of bad design - especially in Core. Potions as they exist in 3.5 are useless. They are too expensive to use. Even an 8 Cha Fighter with cross-class ranks in UMD is still better off using Wands than Potions.

So I'm not really worried about this.


Finally the reason they made it, so you could only brew defensive potions was because they were stupid(it may have also been a flavor thing*said under breath*).
I think you were right the first time.


That said, if you remove both the level restriction AND the having to know the spell you want to brew restriction, at the same time, you run into a problem. Removing either is fine, but removing both means that again, you can now cast more spells than a level 30 mistic theurge. ... DAMB I AM OUT OF TIME WILL EDDIT TO FINISH LATER.
Uhh...

OK, A. Mystic Theurges don't get especially many spells, especially at level 30.

B. Running out of spells per day is largely a non-concern for a Wizard past, say, level 9 at the absolute minimum (yay Rope Trick :smallannoyed:).

C. The cost of brewing that many potions, and the time it takes, makes this a complete non-issue. Honestly, why would you use the Potions when you could just use the Scrolls? Scrolls are cheaper. No adventurer is going to be able to Batman based on the potions he's made the day before.

Benly
2010-09-30, 11:35 PM
My basic problem with the crafting/item abilities on this class is that they don't thematically dovetail with the invocations - it feels like two classes got squished together into one, the Invoker and then some kind of Grand Alchemist class. Maybe I'm unclear on how they're supposed to relate flavorwise?

I do like the idea of using Forgery to make scrolls you don't qualify for, but it seems kind of unsuitable to these guys.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-30, 11:40 PM
My basic problem with the crafting/item abilities on this class is that they don't thematically dovetail with the invocations - it feels like two classes got squished together into one, the Invoker and then some kind of Grand Alchemist class. Maybe I'm unclear on how they're supposed to relate flavorwise?

I do like the idea of using Forgery to make scrolls you don't qualify for, but it seems kind of unsuitable to these guys.
Erm... yes. I do agree. I mostly added them because I needed class features and nothing else was coming to mind. Heh, I'm surprised you're the first to notice.

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 11:47 PM
Erm... yes. I do agree. I mostly added them because I needed class features and nothing else was coming to mind. Heh, I'm surprised you're the first to notice.

I dismissed them as just tributes paid to wizard fluff. An arcanist is supposed to scribe scrolls and brew potions (I don't because I hate the XP cost but); that potions are worthless in 3.X doesn't help much.

Benly
2010-10-01, 12:15 AM
Erm... yes. I do agree. I mostly added them because I needed class features and nothing else was coming to mind. Heh, I'm surprised you're the first to notice.

I think part of the problem is that there's no clear aesthetic to build further abilities around - or, if there is, you haven't conveyed it. I mean, here's what we know from the fluff you wrote:

They use invocations, and do so in a "scholarly manner".
However, they do it to "focus the wild energy that suffuses (their) soul".
They are rational, but also adaptable and dependable.
They are "generally studious" but would rather spend time "in the real world" than in academics.

So far this is all either pretty much waffling back and forth and saying nothing, except that they are Int-based invocation users. It's not even clear why they use invocations, except that they didn't feel like being wizards for some reason?

However, there is one interesting bit of fluff you dropped in the "races" section: Half-elves who "take an interest in magic, but often lack access to Wizardly universities, and therefore often find Invoking more appealing". This seems like a potentially interesting idea to work from. It implies that the invoker is essentially what happens when you get a self-taught wizard who is naturally studious and academic but has no grounding in formal magical theory and doesn't have the natural overflow of mojo that makes sorcerers sorcelate. He essentially reinvents arcane spellcasting from first principles, and ends up with simple, straightforward spells that are easy for him to replicate as often as he needs to, as opposed to a wizard's endlessly versatile and endlessly fragile constructions.

In that context, using Forgery to make magic items almost starts to make sense again, although I would limit it - perhaps letting him make copies of magic items or scrolls of spells he's seen cast, or something else to reflect his inherent magical style of working from empirical testing rather than pure theory. Potions from Craft: Alchemy make some sense too, although being able to make more powerful potions than theorists and artificers seems odd to me - perhaps he could only make potions from level 3 or lower spells as usual but they are treated as nonmagical alchemical items? I don't know, just freestyle riffing from the concept.

Spellcraft gets taken off his class list. Autohypnosis stays because it's charmingly bizarre. What Knowledges he has on his list might be restricted, or might not.

Just some thoughts based on what little image I could get of a unified theme from the class as described. If you have a different, better-formed image of this class's theme, I'd really like to hear it - it's not really conveyed by the writeup you made.

Edit: Another thing that occurred to me for this self-taught style is that if he has developed his invocations based on empirical methods, all his invocations should have observable results. The ones that specifically strike me as being inappropriate to this theme are the invocations that give a bonus to specific skill checks, as well as Make Your Own Luck. It's obvious when you've successfully worked out how to create a small fire elemental, and you can make a good shot at telling whether you've Charmed someone successfully, but if you're not working from a theoretical grounding, how do you work out that you've made a spell that's made you 30% more persuasive or 10% more resistant to will-altering magic? Persuading people of things (or listening for quiet noises, or resisting spells, or remembering knowledge) just has too many variables to reliably test; it's more difficult and less effective to develop on empirical grounds than Charm. Leaps and Bounds has a similar relationship to Spiderwalk and other movement powers, and so on for Make Your Own Luck vs. concrete defensive powers and Arcane Knowledge vs. actual divinatory powers. There are others which are more borderline, but these are the ones that stand out to me.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 12:21 AM
Ooh, so it's a hedge mage. That actually really makes sense.

Epsilon Rose
2010-10-01, 01:34 AM
I have an odd suggestion that may or may not hold some value.
I originally read this class as someone who manipulates the flows of magic more directly and more readily than the traditional caster and if you add in the bit about them being experimentalists (which I rather like, most DnD mages seem to content to stick to the few forms they known despite their awesome potential) you could do something like increase there invocations known but require them to choose a limited subset to use each day (because either they're constantly figuring out how to use their powers rather than just memorizing set forms or because they want to focus themselves on a smaller number so they can experiment more easily). And then as they level you could give them abilities that let them create new invocations and modify old ones (possibly on the fly). Under this system you could also possibly give them a capstone that lets them access their entire list of spell known for a limited time (possibly at the cost of hurting themselves).


P.S. if you do decide to use some thing from this and want some help with a few abilities I'd be happy to lend a hand.

Lix Lorn
2010-10-01, 02:50 AM
I like it. :)
Although, formatting error: Deafening Blast doesn't have a *, †, ‡, or N.

Benly
2010-10-01, 03:42 AM
Since I'm insomniac, two other things that occur to me about the mechanics, unrelated to flavor.

First, the invocations ability says "at any level where a new invocation is learned" the invoker can trade out an old one. Level 4 is the only level where the invoker doesn't get a new invocation. Kind of odd.

Second, part of the premise of invocation classes has sort of been that you're even more focused than a sorcerer and get even more go-all-day endurance in return. Leaving aside cantrips for the sorc and the free Magic Insight for the invoker, the invoker knows as many or more invocations than the sorcerer knows spells at every level from 1 through 6. On top of this, a number of invocations roll together a bunch of spells - and not just situational spells a sorcerer wouldn't take, but rather popular picks like Grease, Orbs and Power Word: Pain. From 1-6 he outperforms the sorc on both flexibility and endurance. I don't really have a good solution, since any narrower progression for those levels seems a bit silly. The sorcerer does have a broader range to choose from; maybe some of the more "filler-y" invocations copied from the other lists could be shaved off the Least Invocations list to strengthen that gap and reinforce a more unique tone for the Invoker. By the time Lesser Invocations come into play, the sorcerer is about ready to pull ahead on spells known anyway.

Roc Ness
2010-10-01, 03:54 AM
<Comparison to Sorcerer>

Note that this is the same with all other spellcasting classes, including the "almighty wizard". They all pull ahead at 6th level, because, well, that is where they all pull ahead. Why not compare the martial initiators to the Sorcerer?

Benly
2010-10-01, 04:23 AM
Note that this is the same with all other spellcasting classes, including the "almighty wizard". They all pull ahead at 6th level, because, well, that is where they all pull ahead. Why not compare the martial initiators to the Sorcerer?

When you look at Magic Tricks Known vs. Output Sustainability, you see a smoothly sloping line. Leaving aside cantrips and invokers' class "attack ability": wizards know three or more spells, sorcerers know two, warlocks and dragonfire adepts know one. Wizards get one shot plus stat bonus, sorcerers get three plus stat bonus, invocation users get unlimited.

You can graph this on a primitive two-axis graph and your three points will describe a pretty clear curve: spells known goes up, spells/day goes down.

The reason I am not comparing martial initiators is because martial initiators, as a group, do not exist on this graph, while invocation users do. And when you put the invoker on the graph, he puts a big old kink in that curve, because he has more spells known and more spells per day. When you have a smooth-curving graph like that and you put a big old kink in it, it suggests that something is wrong. It means that you are at the least contravening an existing design metric, and when you do that you should (a) be aware that you are doing it and (b) have a reason in mind to do it.

The problem with trying to sort this out is that the invoker doesn't have an "attack ability" class feature to break up the monotony of only having one spell, so the only reasonable thing you can do is give him two spells at level 1. He's obviously intended to use at least one of these picks to grab an attack spell, but he can still throw the curve way the hell off by (for example) picking Least Words of Power and Magic Coating - and even if he doesn't, the fact that he gets to pick what goes in that "attack slot" makes it distinctly a Different Thing from Eldritch Blast or DFA Breath Weapon.

Is there a solution? Maybe. I don't have a good one. But the problem does exist, and it's not just whinging about poor widdle full-casters being too weak before 6, it's that there is a distinct pattern established by existing invocation classes and the Invoker breaks that, not just at level 1 but for the first six levels, without a clear reasoning being established.

Edit: It occurs to me that there is a fourth point on that graph, which is full-list spontaneous casters (warmage, Dread Necro, beguiler). Granted, they have a theoretically ridiculous spells known and a high spells/day, but this is theoretically compensated by their having zero choice in what spells they get. This is reasonably in accordance with my suggestion to compensate on the Invoker by reducing the number of options they have for Least Invocations.

Epsilon Rose
2010-10-01, 07:11 AM
Erm, I seem to see a lot of complaints about the power of traditional warlocks and wizards (either they're under or over powered) especially at upper levels; is there any reason to follow the pattern they establish if it seem to be commonly agreed that it's bad? And even if it's not, this is something new, why does it need to follow that particular established pattern, especially since it doesn't seem to be higher at all points?

Benly
2010-10-01, 07:41 AM
Erm, I seem to see a lot of complaints about the power of traditional warlocks and wizards (either they're under or over powered) especially at upper levels; is there any reason to follow the pattern they establish if it seem to be commonly agreed that it's bad? And even if it's not, this is something new, why does it need to follow that particular established pattern, especially since it doesn't seem to be higher at all points?

There's nothing inherently wrong with breaking established design patterns by choice, but doing it by accident is undesirable and generally inelegant.

Personally, I feel it's worthwhile to at least be aware of and address the fact that the low-level invoker has more spells known and more uses as well as often equal or higher quality of spells than the low-level sorcerer - even if it's addressed with "well, I think it's fine, after level 2 or 3 the sorcerer already has more good choices left to pick from" or something similar.

Sophistemon
2010-10-01, 09:14 AM
It's times like this when I wish I knew what on Earth you homebrew folk were talking about.

It's a skill I wish I had.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-01, 09:19 AM
Whoa, Benly. Thanks for the very thorough help, but it's going to take me a bit to go through all of that! I don't have time right now, this is just a reminder to myself. Everyone who posted after Benly, I haven't gotten to you yet either, heh.

Except for this:

It's times like this when I wish I knew what on Earth you homebrew folk were talking about.

It's a skill I wish I had.
Mostly it's just practice. As long as you have a decent grasp on the rules of D&D, you can homebrew. Everything else is just practice. You should try it; the first time's always hard and awkward, but it's the only way you get better.

Sophistemon
2010-10-01, 09:23 AM
Mostly it's just practice. As long as you have a decent grasp on the rules of D&D, you can homebrew. Everything else is just practice. You should try it; the first time's always hard and awkward, but it's the only way you get better.
Well, I've done some homebrewing before. You might be able to find some of my stuff in their really old threads on these very forums if they haven't been pruned. I just wouldn't have been capable of any actual output if it weren't for some very good friends of mine and, of course, the various other homebrewers on the site. I just don't have that innate grasp of class balancing that others do.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-01, 09:25 AM
Heh, my point is, it's not innate. Jeez, for my early homebrews I was desperate for classes to use as comparison points, and I ran all of my class abilities past what was already out there to make sure it fit in. You just have to spend a lot of time comparing your class to another.

blackmage
2010-10-01, 11:42 AM
I took it on myself to crunch some numbers between several of the caster classes mentioned here and compare their spells/invocations known.

This table has only 1st level spells and higher for wiz/sorc, and only 'normal' invocations that the player chooses for the invocation classes. No bonus spells from Int or feats for any of the classes, no extra spells scribed by the wizard. Think of this as a 'minimum'.

Table 1: Spells/Invocations Known
{table=head]Level | Wizard | Sorcerer | Warlock | Dfire Adept | Invoker
1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2
2 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 3
3 | 7 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 4
4 | 9 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 4
5 | 11 | 6 | 3 | 2 | 5
6 | 13 | 7 | 4 | 3 | 7
7 | 15 | 10 | 4 | 3 | 8
8 | 17 | 11 | 5 | 4 | 9
9 | 19 | 14 | 5 | 4 | 10
10 | 21 | 15 | 6 | 4 | 11
11 | 23 | 19 | 7 | 5 | 13
12 | 25 | 20 | 7 | 5 | 14
13 | 27 | 23 | 8 | 6 | 15
14 | 29 | 24 | 8 | 6 | 16
15 | 31 | 27 | 9 | 6 | 17
16 | 33 | 28 | 10 | 7 | 19
17 | 35 | 30 | 10 | 7 | 20
18 | 37 | 31 | 11 | 8 | 22
19 | 39 | 33 | 11 | 8 | 23
20 | 41 | 34 | 12 | 8 | 26
[/table]

Here we see a couple things. First, warlocks and dragonfire adepts have a significant difference in invocations known at higher levels, probably because of the breath abilities dragonfire adepts also receive. Second, the sorcerer spells known progression is very erratic, while every other class is nearly linear (invoker is the next-least-linear). Progression is VERY slow for sorcerers both early and late, while at the mid-levels it equals the wizard progression.

But, comparing 1st-level and higher spells to invocations, we see that the Invoker DOES meet or exceed the Sorcerer at levels 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. Using this comparison the Invoker is more powerful up until 6, but I'll argue we may need to include a few more things in our comparison.

So, here's another table, which includes more. It includes 0-level spells known (for the wizard I just put down 20, since thats how many are in PHB, and I don't really know how many 0-level spells are in splatbooks), things like the warlocks' detect magic, invoker's Magic Insight, and the Dfire adept's breath abilities. Counted the blast/breath abilities of warlocks/Dfires as 1 extra thing known.

Table 2: Spells/Invocations Known
{table=head]Level | Wizard | Sorcerer | Warlock | Dfire Adept | Invoker
1 | 23 | 6 | 2 | 2 | 3
2 | 25 | 7 | 4 | 3 | 4
3 | 27 | 8 | 4 | 4 | 5
4 | 29 | 10 | 5 | 4 | 5
5 | 31 | 12 | 5 | 5 | 6
6 | 33 | 14 | 6 | 6 | 8
7 | 35 | 17 | 6 | 6 | 9
8 | 37 | 19 | 7 | 7 | 10
9 | 39 | 22 | 7 | 7 | 11
10 | 41 | 24 | 8 | 8 | 12
11 | 43 | 28 | 9 | 9 | 14
12 | 45 | 29 | 9 | 10 | 15
13 | 47 | 32 | 10 | 11 | 16
14 | 49 | 33 | 10 | 11 | 17
15 | 51 | 36 | 11 | 12 | 19
16 | 53 | 37 | 12 | 13 | 20
17 | 55 | 39 | 12 | 13 | 21
18 | 57 | 40 | 13 | 14 | 23
19 | 59 | 42 | 13 | 14 | 24
20 | 61 | 43 | 14 | 15 | 27
[/table]

This changes the Invoker and Warlock barely at all, the DFire and Sorc go up quite a bit, and the Wizard gets stupid.

Now, the Sorcerer is ahead of all the invoking classes in abilities known at all levels. Yes, he gains that edge with 0-level spells. But low levels are where 0-levels actually matter, and that's when the sorcerer was otherwise behind. And the second table isn't a matter of just-barely-ahead, the sorcerer's numbers are almost double that of the invoker until 15 or so.

So, in the end, I think the default versatility of the Invoker is below that of the sorcerer, though in the early levels the Invoker's power may be higher as their invocations are at-will and the Sorcerer has few spells per day.

Now, comparing the Invoker to the Warlock/Dragonfire Adept, the Invoker is much more versatile, having 50% more abilities at all levels. Warlock/Dfire do get some other class abilities that help out in combat, and their signature attack ability which probably lets them outdo the Invoker in straight damage. The Invoker's class abilities are crafting-related, and increase its versatility a bit more but don't contribute to focused combat power. I think this places the Invoker at tier 3, you might can argue that the crafting features push it up to 2, but those are being looked at now for their own reasons.

I think the class as-is is fine compared to other full casters.

Morph Bark
2010-10-01, 11:52 AM
In a way, I find it hilarious how this class can get the ability to use Meteor Swarm or Power Word: Kill as an at-will SLA one level before the Wizard could even get them as per-day spells.


*snip*

Do keep in mind that the Wizard and Sorcerer use their abilities 1/day rather than at-will. There's a big difference there.

Sophistemon
2010-10-01, 12:02 PM
Heh, my point is, it's not innate. Jeez, for my early homebrews I was desperate for classes to use as comparison points, and I ran all of my class abilities past what was already out there to make sure it fit in. You just have to spend a lot of time comparing your class to another.
My apologies, I should have said 'learned' rather than 'innate'.

I did not mean to imply that homebrewers don't earn their skills through practice.

blackmage
2010-10-01, 12:17 PM
Do keep in mind that the Wizard and Sorcerer use their abilities 1/day rather than at-will. There's a big difference there.

This is a hard point to compare numerically. While Wiz/Sorc have a definite, finite spells/day number we can pin down, how do we compare those to infinite availability? Having not played at the low levels in question much, DO sorcerers/wizards run out of spells per day during typical encounters? If they do, this is a balance issue for invoker. If they don't, and everybody keeps casting until the encounter is over, I don't see any power discrepancy.

Morph Bark
2010-10-01, 12:26 PM
This is a hard point to compare numerically. While Wiz/Sorc have a definite, finite spells/day number we can pin down, how do we compare those to infinite availability? Having not played at the low levels in question much, DO sorcerers/wizards run out of spells per day during typical encounters? If they do, this is a balance issue for invoker. If they don't, and everybody keeps casting until the encounter is over, I don't see any power discrepancy.

I have seen in some official source somewhere that for decreasing the amount of uses of SLAs for monsters go "at-will -> 3/day -> 2/day -> 1/day -> none", so it stands to reason that at-will is four times better than daily.

And yes, spellcasters can easily run out of spells per day at lower levels, even with few encounters.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 01:02 PM
It depends upon what type of casters you're dealing with.

Focused Specialist Wizard?

Lv 1 you have 4 spells per day, or 1/encounter; if your a conjurer this is mostly grease, and 1 sleep or PW Pain. The Invoker is better with at will grease and Power Word Pain. A gray elf gets this to 5 per day for the wizard.

Lv 2 you have 5 spells per day and the Invoker is still better.

Lv 3 you now have 2nd level spells that out-do the Invoker, but you can only use those 1/encounter. But they can be Glitterdust and Web so you contribute to the whole battle that way or you can take Glitterdust and a fire spell and Fiery Burst to give you an at will 2d6 fire attack. You still have grease should you really need it.

Lv 4: You have a 2nd 2nd level spell for a single encounter. Invokers have 4 options at will.

Lv 5: You have 3rd level spells, 4/day. One of these is probably Gr. Mage Armor to keep from being squished but still.

Lv 6: Invoker is actually better again with Orb of X (making them a better blaster than warlock at this level) and continuous flight.

Lv 7: 4th level spells put wizards back on footing with the invoker.

I could continue.

Edit: Looking at it power-wise if you dropped 1 invocation of each grade they become much more in line with other classes.

blackmage
2010-10-01, 01:58 PM
More tables, and results that surprised me. This is spells/day at each level. For all at-will abilities in the warlock/invoker classes, I counted each ability as 4 uses per day, per M-Bark's suggestion. The casters use numbers straight off the tables, no bonus spells from ability scores (which is in practice impossible because you couldn't cast spells, but useful for a baseline here).

Table 3: Spells/Invocations per Day
{table=head] Level | Wizard | Sorcerer | Warlock | Invoker
1 | 4 | 8 | 8 | 12
2 | 6 | 10 | 16 | 16
3 | 7 | 11 | 16 | 20
4 | 9 | 15 | 20 | 20
5 | 10 | 16 | 20 | 24
6 | 12 | 20 | 24 | 32
7 | 14 | 22 | 24 | 36
8 | 16 | 26 | 28 | 40
9 | 18 | 28 | 28 | 44
10 | 20 | 32 | 32 | 48
11 | 22 | 34 | 36 | 56
12 | 24 | 38 | 36 | 60
13 | 26 | 40 | 40 | 64
14 | 28 | 44 | 40 | 68
15 | 30 | 46 | 44 | 76
16 | 32 | 50 | 48 | 80
17 | 34 | 52 | 48 | 84
18 | 36 | 56 | 52 | 92
19 | 38 | 58 | 52 | 96
20 | 40 | 60 | 56 | 108
[/table]

By this conversion, Warlocks are almost perfectly in line with Sorcerers (and in practice, with bonus spells, Sorcerers would have more spells per day than Warlocks), Wizards get half as many spells as Sorcerers, and an Invoker gets as many spells as a Wizard and Sorcerer put together.

I really hate to admit it, but M-Bark and Benly have a point. So, what do we do about it? Cranking down on invocations known is a possibility...but a hard line to walk, and something I personally don't want to see. :smallfrown:

It may be that this kind of class, which pushes invocation-casting to the forefront, just isn't compatible with the standard wizard or sorcerer.

Epsilon Rose
2010-10-01, 02:31 PM
I'm not sure how useful a metric that is. It doesn't take into account the power or variety of available spells, it also assumes that you will need all of your spell slots equally, ie at higher levels you're probably not going to be relying on first level spell, there's also probably a point where more spell slots start mattering less.

The best way to compare them would probably be to put together identical mock parties and have a wizard in one, an invoker in another, and both in the third. Then it's just a matter of seeing what they can do.

Edit: also I'm not so sure about that at will = 4x a day.

Benly
2010-10-01, 05:59 PM
I'm not sure how useful a metric that is. It doesn't take into account the power or variety of available spells, it also assumes that you will need all of your spell slots equally, ie at higher levels you're probably not going to be relying on first level spell, there's also probably a point where more spell slots start mattering less.

The best way to compare them would probably be to put together identical mock parties and have a wizard in one, an invoker in another, and both in the third. Then it's just a matter of seeing what they can do.

Edit: also I'm not so sure about that at will = 4x a day.

Well, at high levels the wizard or sorcerer will be significantly better. There's a lot of amazing stuff on their list that the invoker is just never getting. That's part of why I'm not bugged about the invoker getting level 9 spells before the sorc or wiz does, because when the spellcasters do get them, Meteor Swarm and Power Word: Kill aren't likely to be the top candidates. The casters' wider variety of spells and wider range of spells to choose from are in top form at that point.

At low levels I'm not sure, though. The Invoker can certainly fill his first three slots with things a level 1-2 sorc would love to have. The fourth slot, probably; by the fifth Least slot he's probably feeling some redundancy and would appreciate the wider range a sorcerer can draw from. I feel like trimming down the list some would solidify this, and could help give the invoker a more distinct feeling from the other invocation classes by reducing their list overlap a bit. Thinking it over, I'm not so worried about levels 1-2 being flat-out better for an invoker than a sorc, because level 1 is pretty unpleasant for everyone and level 2 only a little less so. What I would hope to see is a bit of a tricky balancing act, a point where the player thinks "Hm, might be nice to have more options, ah well, there's still some nice stuff" rather than "dear lord, why is this list so short?" or "boy, this sure is an awesomely huge menu of invocations to pick from!" at levels 3-5.

blackmage
2010-10-01, 06:30 PM
Hmm, a thought for all our low-level balance worries. What if the invoker does not learn a new least invocation at level two, having 1 fewer least invocations known than on the table until level 18-20, when he learns his eighth. It brings his versatility down a bit at low levels, but I don't think it will cripple him. It messes with the nice progression that exists now a little, but I'd be happy with such a small tweak if DragoonWraith goes with that.

I'm not convinced this is a good idea, but wanted to present it as AN idea that might address concerns without gutting the class.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-01, 09:42 PM
I think part of the problem is that there's no clear aesthetic to build further abilities around - or, if there is, you haven't conveyed it. I mean, here's what we know from the fluff you wrote:

They use invocations, and do so in a "scholarly manner".
However, they do it to "focus the wild energy that suffuses (their) soul".
They are rational, but also adaptable and dependable.
They are "generally studious" but would rather spend time "in the real world" than in academics.

So far this is all either pretty much waffling back and forth and saying nothing, except that they are Int-based invocation users. It's not even clear why they use invocations, except that they didn't feel like being wizards for some reason?
Hahaha... hoo boy. The "focus the wild energy that suffuses his soul" line is a copy-pasta error from Complete Arcane. That's basically a typo.


However, there is one interesting bit of fluff you dropped in the "races" section: Half-elves who "take an interest in magic, but often lack access to Wizardly universities, and therefore often find Invoking more appealing". This seems like a potentially interesting idea to work from. It implies that the invoker is essentially what happens when you get a self-taught wizard who is naturally studious and academic but has no grounding in formal magical theory and doesn't have the natural overflow of mojo that makes sorcerers sorcelate. He essentially reinvents arcane spellcasting from first principles, and ends up with simple, straightforward spells that are easy for him to replicate as often as he needs to, as opposed to a wizard's endlessly versatile and endlessly fragile constructions.
Yup, this I do like quite a bit. Thank you for it; it was kind of the idea I was going for, if there was one.


In that context, using Forgery to make magic items almost starts to make sense again, although I would limit it - perhaps letting him make copies of magic items or scrolls of spells he's seen cast, or something else to reflect his inherent magical style of working from empirical testing rather than pure theory.
This sounds kind of cool, though really the answer to the limitation is to require a Spellcraft check to know the spell. Or whatever mechanic whereby Wizards learn of new spells to add to their spell book. From a design perspective, requiring that he keep track of every spell he's ever seen is a poor choice, IMO. It's just too unwieldy.


Potions from Craft: Alchemy make some sense too, although being able to make more powerful potions than theorists and artificers seems odd to me - perhaps he could only make potions from level 3 or lower spells as usual but they are treated as nonmagical alchemical items? I don't know, just freestyle riffing from the concept.
That makes them useless. Potions basically are as they are, even with higher levels. He focuses on Potions, which most arcanists ignore. And honestly... OK, sorry, the fluff has to diverge from the mechanics here, because I don't want the "baggage" of Wizards' terrible rules for potions.


Spellcraft gets taken off his class list.
Absolutely not. A spellcaster without Spellcraft is a joke. That I simply won't do. He may not spend all his time in a university studying magic, but he does know magic. I'm reminded of Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men: "Don't tell me what I know, I know the law!" (or magic, here, anyway).


Autohypnosis stays because it's charmingly bizarre. What Knowledges he has on his list might be restricted, or might not.
Autohypnosis is kind of awesome, plus I want that Wis synergy. Knowledges I feel can stay, just because other than Knowledge (Arcana) (which he undoubtedly should have), most of them should be improved by spending less time in the Ivory Tower.


Just some thoughts based on what little image I could get of a unified theme from the class as described. If you have a different, better-formed image of this class's theme, I'd really like to hear it - it's not really conveyed by the writeup you made.
That's because the write-up was a quick one-off thing...


Edit: Another thing that occurred to me for this self-taught style is that if he has developed his invocations based on empirical methods, all his invocations should have observable results. The ones that specifically strike me as being inappropriate to this theme are the invocations that give a bonus to specific skill checks, as well as Make Your Own Luck. It's obvious when you've successfully worked out how to create a small fire elemental, and you can make a good shot at telling whether you've Charmed someone successfully, but if you're not working from a theoretical grounding, how do you work out that you've made a spell that's made you 30% more persuasive or 10% more resistant to will-altering magic? Persuading people of things (or listening for quiet noises, or resisting spells, or remembering knowledge) just has too many variables to reliably test; it's more difficult and less effective to develop on empirical grounds than Charm. Leaps and Bounds has a similar relationship to Spiderwalk and other movement powers, and so on for Make Your Own Luck vs. concrete defensive powers and Arcane Knowledge vs. actual divinatory powers. There are others which are more borderline, but these are the ones that stand out to me.
This is pretty good thinking, I do like this. Still, they're also aware of the manipulation of Arcana - seems to me that if you're crafting this spell from the flows of energy all around you, you have a pretty good idea of what you're (trying) to do with them and when it works, you know. Is my guess. I mean, spells with saving throws alert their targets when they succeed on a save against them, even if they're invisible.


Although, formatting error: Deafening Blast doesn't have a *, †, ‡, or N.
Thanks for catching that! Always the little things. Now I have to figure out which it is....


I have an odd suggestion that may or may not hold some value.
I originally read this class as someone who manipulates the flows of magic more directly and more readily than the traditional caster and if you add in the bit about them being experimentalists (which I rather like, most DnD mages seem to content to stick to the few forms they known despite their awesome potential) you could do something like increase there invocations known but require them to choose a limited subset to use each day (because either they're constantly figuring out how to use their powers rather than just memorizing set forms or because they want to focus themselves on a smaller number so they can experiment more easily). And then as they level you could give them abilities that let them create new invocations and modify old ones (possibly on the fly). Under this system you could also possibly give them a capstone that lets them access their entire list of spell known for a limited time (possibly at the cost of hurting themselves).

P.S. if you do decide to use some thing from this and want some help with a few abilities I'd be happy to lend a hand.
No, that has serious balance issues. Being able to change your entire repertoire every day is the path to Tier 1-ness. I do like the idea from a fluff perspective, but it just doesn't work. I mean, see the Spirit Shaman in Complete Divine - the thing is borderline Tier-1, and would easily be if it was using a better spell list.


First, the invocations ability says "at any level where a new invocation is learned" the invoker can trade out an old one. Level 4 is the only level where the invoker doesn't get a new invocation. Kind of odd.
That's because I hate how the Sorcerer locks people in the way it does. Also, the wording is designed specifically to allow you to swap even if you take a PrC.


In a way, I find it hilarious how this class can get the ability to use Meteor Swarm or Power Word: Kill as an at-will SLA one level before the Wizard could even get them as per-day spells.
Very intentional. They're both abysmal 9th level spells, I don't mind giving them early.


My apologies, I should have said 'learned' rather than 'innate'.

I did not mean to imply that homebrewers don't earn their skills through practice.
Haha, I take no offense, I merely mean that you can learn too, if you wish. I'd be happy to help, if you wanted.


I have seen in some official source somewhere that for decreasing the amount of uses of SLAs for monsters go "at-will -> 3/day -> 2/day -> 1/day -> none", so it stands to reason that at-will is four times better than daily.

And yes, spellcasters can easily run out of spells per day at lower levels, even with few encounters.
Wizards has always grossly overestimated the importance of at-will spells. That's why the Warlock is underpowered in the first place, and that's why most of the Reserve Feats are awful. Plus why they took until Complete Arcane to happen. So yeah, I reject the metric out-right.


OK, specific quotes done with, now the meat-and-potatoes that quoting would be ridiculous (since it would end up being almost all of the last two days' worth of posts in the thread): Low-level Invokers as compared to Sorcerers.

First, I tend to agree that not getting the third Invocation Known at 2nd level is a good idea.

Second, I don't really want to trim the list too much, because I put a fair amount of work into it. That said, there are certainly some options there. I will look into it.

Third, do people think it's worthwhile to "force" a damaging Invocation at 1st level? I don't really know how much I agree that taking two BC Invocations at 1st is going to throw everything off, but it was a valid concern raised and I'm looking for input.

Fourth, how do things, considering the above changes, sit with people? Without the third Invocation at 2nd, the Invoker has as many Invocations Known as the Sorcerer for level 1-4, and then at 5th the Sorcerer pulls ahead. Does this sound right to people? Or is the fact that the Sorcerer's limited spells per day is most significant at those levels indicative of a problem? I've played a low-level Sorcerer (well 3rd), and I really did not feel like I was overly strapped for spells - for one, the Cantrips are not worthless, and Grease and Charm Person can do amazing things. Thoughts?

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 09:53 PM
Well personally I think it hinges actually on what you just said Grease is awesome. Most of the stuff on "wizards are the strongest even at 1st" assume you're just using Grease and Color Spray, and really I don't think limiting them to 1 BC and 1 damage power at 1st would help; it's a better idea to do that anyway get the best BC and either the Power Word or Magic Missile and then at 4th pick up something for other non-combat uses.

I'd say, as much as I dislike anything that nerfs a character I'm hoping to play, take away the 3rd level invocation and consider not giving them the Orb of X spells.

Benly
2010-10-01, 10:06 PM
That makes them useless. Potions basically are as they are, even with higher levels. He focuses on Potions, which most arcanists ignore. And honestly... OK, sorry, the fluff has to diverge from the mechanics here, because I don't want the "baggage" of Wizards' terrible rules for potions.

I don't like potion and crafting mechanics much either, but that's why I don't build class features around them. :smallsmile: All else being equal, I'd rather see them get class features that aren't crafting-focused at all, but that's my personal tastes - I don't think potion and scroll super-talents suit the invoker particularly well at all, but those were the sort of things that occurred to me at first mull-over as being more in the theme they seemed to strike.


Absolutely not. A spellcaster without Spellcraft is a joke. That I simply won't do. He may not spend all his time in a university studying magic, but he does know magic. I'm reminded of Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men: "Don't tell me what I know, I know the law!" (or magic, here, anyway).

He's not a spellcaster, he's an invocation-user. Why is he a joke if he doesn't know Spellcraft? Then again, this could be a problem in the vagueness of what exactly Spellcraft covers (in terms of actual knowledge, not the mechanical effects) so that you and I have different ideas of what it means to have or not have it.



Autohypnosis is kind of awesome, plus I want that Wis synergy. Knowledges I feel can stay, just because other than Knowledge (Arcana) (which he undoubtedly should have), most of them should be improved by spending less time in the Ivory Tower.


Some of them, yeah - although if we're presuming that wizards are the ivory tower, it would sort of make more sense to take (Local) and such off their list. I'm thinking of the more somewhat esoteric stuff, like (Religion), (Architecture & Engineering) or (The Planes), which all have a distinctly academic bent.



This is pretty good thinking, I do like this. Still, they're also aware of the manipulation of Arcana - seems to me that if you're crafting this spell from the flows of energy all around you, you have a pretty good idea of what you're (trying) to do with them and when it works, you know. Is my guess. I mean, spells with saving throws alert their targets when they succeed on a save against them, even if they're invisible.


Right, but they also don't let you know what the spell was that triggered the save. As I see it, those invocations would let you know power was flowing to somewhere, doing something, but you don't actually have any way to observe what it's doing, so you're not likely to decide to make that invocation a central part of your limited repertoire.

This isn't to say you wouldn't have spells with subtle effects, but rather that you wouldn't have spells whose effects are purely a matter of metagame numbers improving through nebulous means. A theorist can design a spell that he is quite certain will manipulate fate in precise ways that enable his survival. An empiricist designs a spell to protect himself through measurable means.



That's because I hate how the Sorcerer locks people in the way it does. Also, the wording is designed specifically to allow you to swap even if you take a PrC.


Yeah, that part that was weird to me was that the phrasing means there is exactly one level in the entire progression when you don't get to trade spells. Kind of strange to me.



Third, do people think it's worthwhile to "force" a damaging Invocation at 1st level? I don't really know how much I agree that taking two BC Invocations at 1st is going to throw everything off, but it was a valid concern raised and I'm looking for input.


So what struck me is that it seemed quite viable at first level to take Least Words of Power and Magic Coating - what I've seen of recommendations for sorcerers leads me to think that it wouldn't be unreasonable for a sorc to start with Power Word: Pain and Grease, and the invoker starts with those plus three other useful control/debuffs. PW:Pain is a fantastic damage power at that level.



Fourth, how do things, considering the above changes, sit with people? Without the third Invocation at 2nd, the Invoker has as many Invocations Known as the Sorcerer for level 1-4, and then at 5th the Sorcerer pulls ahead. Does this sound right to people? Or is the fact that the Sorcerer's limited spells per day is most significant at those levels indicative of a problem? I've played a low-level Sorcerer (well 3rd), and I really did not feel like I was overly strapped for spells - for one, the Cantrips are not worthless, and Grease and Charm Person can do amazing things. Thoughts?

If I understand correctly, this would be two invocations at first level, then Magic Insight as a bonus at second instead of a freely-chosen third invocation? That honestly sounds pretty good to me.

Cantrips aren't worthless, but they tend to be either flavor, very minor utility, or most importantly "this is what I do when I'm out of spells or worried that I'll run out". The last is not a concern for the Invoker so the lack of cantrips isn't really a big problem for them.

(That said, I saw mention elsewhere of someone considering a houseruled version of the Invoker that replaced alchemy with some kind of non-specified progression of cantrips-as-invocations, on the grounds that while it was less powerful, it was more fun and less bookkeeping. I would probably have more fun playing that, but it would be a pretty heavy nerf so I haven't suggested it. Maybe as an ACF?)

Edit:


I'd say, as much as I dislike anything that nerfs a character I'm hoping to play, take away the 3rd level invocation and consider not giving them the Orb of X spells.

The Orbs are a little borderline, but I would say that by the time they come into play the other spellcasting classes are pulling ahead. They do put the invoker ahead of a straight core warlock for DPR, but probably not ahead of a glaivelock and still behind a Hellfire Shenanigans warlock.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 10:20 PM
Lv 6 Glaivelock 1 attack per round at 3d6; no hellfire shenanigans possible at that level either. Even two handed PA only gets you +8 for the equivalent of 5d6 (5d6+1 to be technical). Also it has a secondary save versus debuff better than a warlock's lesser eldritch essences.

It's also at a point where that's better than anything a wizard has (until 7th).

It's not broken late game but when they get it it is; like Power Word Pain. It actually puts them ahead of wizards and sorcerers in power at Lv 6.

Edit: There's also a reason I included the word consider, because it's close enough that it does require some heavy contemplation.

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 10:27 PM
Meteor swarm at will? Sounds broken particularly if you use quicken invocation, or spell like ability cannot remember which. Two 9th levels spells in 1 round in non epic?

Benly
2010-10-01, 10:36 PM
Lv 6 Glaivelock 1 attack per round at 3d6; no hellfire shenanigans possible at that level either. Even two handed PA only gets you +8 for the equivalent of 5d6 (5d6+1 to be technical). Also it has a secondary save versus debuff better than a warlock's lesser eldritch essences.

It's also at a point where that's better than anything a wizard has (until 7th).

It's not broken late game but when they get it it is; like Power Word Pain. It actually puts them ahead of wizards and sorcerers in power at Lv 6.

Edit: There's also a reason I included the word consider, because it's close enough that it does require some heavy contemplation.

Oh yeah, the level when they get the Orbs is a high point for sure. The thing is, I'm not sure it's a problem in the long run.

This seems to be a bit of a recurring issue here actually, powers that aren't unbalanced over the length of their tier but are very strong to get right at the start of the tier.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-01, 10:36 PM
Meteor swarm at will? Sounds broken particularly if you use quicken invocation, or spell like ability cannot remember which. Two 9th levels spells in 1 round in non epic?
Meteor Swarm is an awful spell. Nothing about making it at-will changes that.

And the Orb spells are never better than anything the Wizard has; they might do more damage, but damage isn't that important.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 10:43 PM
Orbs do damage and daze; the reason the Orb spells are the one blasting spell that are used in optimized play is because there's no save versus damage, no SR, and a rider save or suck effect.

With 3rd level spells there's no effect wizards have that can reliably daze creatures (Daze Monster can within a Hit Die cap and all it does is Daze). 4th level spells and wizards can only with Orb of Fire, Sorcerers can with Wings of Flurry.

Also Quicken Spell-like Ability can only quicken 6th level or lower equivalent spell-likes. Meteor Swarm really is just damage and suboptimal damage at that.

Benly
2010-10-01, 10:43 PM
Yeah, wizards or sorcerers can easily cast multiple level 9 spells in one round pre-epic without any special feats or going out of core. All that's necessary is for one of them to be Time Stop. :smallsmile: The top tier of invocations are honestly the least worrisome, because at that point spellcasters are getting worldbreaking stuff and the invoker is just getting fun toys.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-01, 10:48 PM
The simple answer would seem to be to delay Lesser Invocations by a level, but that has the really obnoxious side-effect of making the Invoker progress slower than the Warlock. I feel like the Orb spells just make sense on this list (since most of the list is damage + side-effect, and most of it is elemental, and both points were intentional), so I don't want to nix them. Ugh.

A lot of me feels like this is the same issue as the Warlock has with Summon Swarm. Summon Swarm is very good at level 1. It's thoroughly average at level 3 - useful, but not exactly top-shelf breakage material. Power Word: Pain and Grease have the same issues, except the Wizard gets them at level 1 too, so whatever. But then we have the Orb spells, which are for level 6 what Summon Swarm is for level 1. Grr...

I'm really not seeing a happy solution to this.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 10:53 PM
You could only give them one lesser invocation at 6th, and a 2nd at 7th and delay the 3rd and 4th lesser invocations by 1 each. That way they have to make a choice between good blasting, and any of the several other tricks available at that level (like sorcerers do). Do you want to fly or be better at blasting?

DragoonWraith
2010-10-01, 11:06 PM
Not terrible; 1 Invocation at the first level of a tier across the board might not be a terrible idea, honestly.

Ziegander
2010-10-01, 11:15 PM
I like that tweak. Seems to work pretty well to me.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-02, 12:42 AM
OK, so I just -1'd the entire table. How's it look now? Is that too much off the higher levels?

Also fixed the lack of indicator on Deafening Blast; thank you, Lix, for pointing that out.

Haven't gotten to fixing the fluff yet, or addressing potions.

I do like the idea of doing something with Cantrips instead of Potions. I'll think on that more.

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 12:56 AM
Looks pretty good.

There's a typo on the number of least invocations at 10th level; it says 7 instead of 6. That's the only thing I could find wrong.

Now I need to figure out whether to dump Grease or Spider Climb.

Benly
2010-10-02, 01:54 AM
I would lean slightly towards incorporating the earlier idea of starting them at 2 invocations at level 1 and then awarding Magic Insight as a class feature instead of a proper +1 invocation at level 2. Since other invocation classes start with a blast and a utility, it does seem proper to let the invoker have that.

(I may sound like I'm contradicting myself, but being too strong at level 1 isn't that big a deal on its own considering that level 1 is when any given character dies on a critical hit from a kobold.)

Edit: Thinking about it, it doesn't make much sense for them not to have Magic Insight to start with if they've been developing their own spells from scratch. Never mind.

The Antigamer
2010-10-04, 03:27 AM
I love this class, but a few things:
One, your invocations known table is messed up, check the lesser column.
Two, I think maybe a small increase in invocations known would be better.
Three, why are the invocations from Complete Mage not on the list?

Roc Ness
2010-10-04, 03:31 AM
The simple answer would seem to be to delay Lesser Invocations by a level, but that has the really obnoxious side-effect of making the Invoker progress slower than the Warlock. I feel like the Orb spells just make sense on this list (since most of the list is damage + side-effect, and most of it is elemental, and both points were intentional), so I don't want to nix them. Ugh.

Nerf Orb of X slightly. Instead of +1d6 per caster level, why not just say +1d6 per two caster levels? You are making an invocation, you could change things however you needed to.

Benly
2010-10-04, 03:44 AM
Nerf Orb of X slightly. Instead of +1d6 per caster level, why not just say +1d6 per two caster levels? You are making an invocation, you could change things however you needed to.

Because then it's Eldritch Blast with a couple of Eldritch Essence options.

Roc Ness
2010-10-04, 04:31 AM
Exactly, right? :smallwink:

DragoonWraith
2010-10-04, 11:05 AM
I love this class
Thanks!


One, your invocations known table is messed up, check the lesser column.
Thanks, got it (10th level, yes?).


Two, I think maybe a small increase in invocations known would be better.
There was a small increase in invocations known originally, and everyone convinced me that it needed trimming because this class had more Invocations Known than the Sorcerer had Spells Known, even though Invocations are at-will and Spells are limited per day.


Three, why are the invocations from Complete Mage not on the list?
Because I didn't realize Complete Mage had Invocations in it. I'll look into it.


Nerf Orb of X slightly. Instead of +1d6 per caster level, why not just say +1d6 per two caster levels? You are making an invocation, you could change things however you needed to.
Hrm... that would, I think, make them strictly worse than Eldritch Blast. But I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Hrmm...

Hyooz
2010-10-04, 01:17 PM
As a whole, I really like the class. Invocations have always been fun, and a heavy invocation class was long overdue.

I am somewhat disappointed in the new Invocations, though. Way too many of them are just "Cast this spell." The few unique ones there are are a lot of fun, I just wish there had been more.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-04, 01:19 PM
As a whole, I really like the class. Invocations have always been fun, and a heavy invocation class was long overdue.

I am somewhat disappointed in the new Invocations, though. Way too many of them are just "Cast this spell." The few unique ones there are are a lot of fun, I just wish there had been more.
Yup, that's what happens when the class is intended as a simple one-off class. I did go through a lot of books looking for more interesting spells.

Most of the rest are blatantly ripped off Defense of the Ancients and/or Heroes of Newerth.

Benly
2010-10-04, 05:16 PM
There was a small increase in invocations known originally, and everyone convinced me that it needed trimming because this class had more Invocations Known than the Sorcerer had Spells Known, even though Invocations are at-will and Spells are limited per day.

For what it's worth, that was only the case from 1-6. After that, sorcerers have more spells anyway.


Hrm... that would, I think, make them strictly worse than Eldritch Blast. But I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Hrmm...

Eldritch Blast is kind of bad without hellfire shenanigans or glaivery, is the thing. A CompArc + Core warlock is a worse blaster than a core-only archer.

The Antigamer
2010-10-04, 07:07 PM
I've gotta say, I'm just not a fan of lowering the invocations known :-/
You know what invocations it could use though, is something that increases AC, they currently have no invocations that do that. Also, pointing out the Imbued Staff (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/imbued-staff) option as an ACF for summon familiar. Re-tooled somewhat, it could be a viable replacement.

blackmage
2010-10-04, 09:02 PM
You know what invocations it could use though, is something that increases AC, they currently have no invocations that do that.

From what I've seen in the thread so far, I think that was intentional. The invoker certainly has defensive buffs, in Make Your Own Luck and Entropic Warding. And once you hit Lesser invocations, there's Flight, Flee the Scene, and Walk Unseen that should all keep you out of melee reach. So, yes, the Invoker will probably have abysmal AC...but it has a lot of ways to compensate for it.

Zaydos
2010-10-04, 09:06 PM
Scrolls of Mage Armor for 1. 1 XP 12.5 GP and an hour is as good as a day half the time.

The Antigamer
2010-10-04, 09:13 PM
From what I've seen in the thread so far, I think that was intentional. The invoker certainly has defensive buffs, in Make Your Own Luck and Entropic Warding. And once you hit Lesser invocations, there's Flight, Flee the Scene, and Walk Unseen that should all keep you out of melee reach. So, yes, the Invoker will probably have abysmal AC...but it has a lot of ways to compensate for it.


Scrolls of Mage Armor for 1. 1 XP 12.5 GP and an hour is as good as a day half the time.

These are both good points I had not considered.

Zaydos
2010-10-04, 09:19 PM
These are both good points I had not considered.

I'm applying to a Lv 4 PBP with one, so that's why I knew mine. As for the other, right now my only "defensive" invocation is Grease if they can't stand up they can't get into melee with me.

Though Lv 6 it's going to be their Flight power, and then either Walk Unseen or Orb of X.

Qwertystop
2011-07-23, 09:04 PM
This looks really interesting. Actually, I was considering making a prestige class for a warlock (never got anywhere) that might work well as a PrC for this. It was essentially a Warlock's answer to Specialization, in that it got extra invocations that were from one of several new lists (matching the schools of magic, with Divination and Abjuration combined, and Conjuration combined with Transmutation), and also got added effects to Eldtritch Blast depending on which list it chose.

You think that idea sounds like something to try for this?

Welknair
2011-07-23, 11:34 PM
....


That's quite the bump there.


And I think the OP got banned, which would make his answering your suggestion somewhat difficult.

Qwertystop
2011-07-24, 09:46 AM
....


That's quite the bump there.


And I think the OP got banned, which would make his answering your suggestion somewhat difficult.

Oh...
Wow, I misread the date of the last post by a long shot. Sorry, mods...
:redface:

Roc Ness
2011-07-25, 04:20 PM
Invoker is up here on my list of all time favourite homebrews.
On the Third Page:



Yeah, but it would be awesome for there to be specific prestige classes for the invoker. :smallwink::smallwink::hint::hint:Heh, you're welcome to make one! The only one I can see doing, and even them I'm not wild about actually doing it, is an Arcane/Invoker PrC, since you wouldn't be able to qualify for Ultimate Magus or Eldritch Theurge.

That should answer your question, right? XD

But just to be sure, you can talk to the OP here (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13) after you register. And I do remember there was an IRC floating around where you could find him and others, although I can't for the life of me find the link. :smallsmile:
EDIT: Found it. (http://wbe001.mibbit.com/?settings=25c3886e601ac15e693b9e96ac43f70a&server=irc.gamesurge.net&channel=%23giantitp) I wonder what happens to me life now.