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Desril
2010-05-26, 08:53 PM
"To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels."

So, for example I'll use a succubus (6 Racial HD, 6 LA), a level 1 character would have an ECL of 13.

That rule says that a level 18 human would have the same ECL as a level 6 Succubus making them relatively 'equal', but the human would completely destroy the demon.

But, if you just used the LA and not the racial HD, a level 6 Succubus (ECL 12) would be roughly equal to a level 12 human of the same class (assuming it doesn't rely on Cha anyway).

Why is it like that? Wouldn't just the LA of 6 be more balanced and make more sense? Is there something that I'm just not seeing or is that rule just stupid?

Tar Palantir
2010-05-26, 08:56 PM
The rules for playing as monsters with LA and/or racial HD are terribly broken (as in nonfunctional, truenamer broken, not overpowered, Planar Shepherd broken). Most are horribly underpowered, some are about right, and a few are ridiculously overpowered. There's no quick and easy fix, and the best solution is to revamp it on a case-by-case basis.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 08:59 PM
"To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels."

So, for example I'll use a succubus (6 Racial HD, 6 LA), a level 1 character would have an ECL of 13.

That rule says that a level 18 human would have the same ECL as a level 6 Succubus making them relatively 'equal', but the human would completely destroy the demon.

But, if you just used the LA and not the racial HD, a level 6 Succubus (ECL 12) would be roughly equal to a level 12 human of the same class (assuming it doesn't rely on Cha anyway).

Why is it like that? Wouldn't just the LA of 6 be more balanced and make more sense? Is there something that I'm just not seeing or is that rule just stupid?

You're usually better off designing the race as a level 1 with a bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm), creating racial alternate class features/substitution levels, and/or creating a 20 level monster class for exceptionally powerful concepts. There is no quick and easy fix.

Runestar
2010-05-26, 09:00 PM
Why is it like that? Wouldn't just the LA of 6 be more balanced and make more

The LA of +6 was determined by also taking into consideration its 6 outsider HD. If you want LA to function the way ECL is working, it will likely end up being higher (to take into account the monster's racial HD), so you would be no better off at the end of the day.

Granted, for most part, a monster's ECL does seem unfairly high, so reviewing them is the best way to go. I would recommend actually re-evaluating them from scratch.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-26, 09:00 PM
"To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels."

So, for example I'll use a succubus (6 Racial HD, 6 LA), a level 1 character would have an ECL of 13.

That rule says that a level 18 human would have the same ECL as a level 6 Succubus making them relatively 'equal', but the human would completely destroy the demon.

But, if you just used the LA and not the racial HD, a level 6 Succubus (ECL 12) would be roughly equal to a level 12 human of the same class (assuming it doesn't rely on Cha anyway).

Why is it like that? Wouldn't just the LA of 6 be more balanced and make more sense? Is there something that I'm just not seeing or is that rule just stupid?
In many cases (not all), it's over-reaction. Characters with a large LA in their ECL are, in general, going to be weaker than characters of the same ECL that didn't use a large LA race. However:

1) You can sometimes find a focus for a high ECL race that makes it worth the LA. A Vampire would normally make for a bad character... but if you stick behind the scenes, Dominating every commoner you run across, you can do some serious moving and shaking in the right campaign.

2) If you don't use ECL (or something very much like it) you have a problem: Some races are noticably more powerful than others. If the Succubus/Sorcerer-6 is in the same party as a Human Sorcerer-6, which is going to dominate the spotlight? So there has to be some form of counterweight for the racial benefits if you're going to permit nonstandard races.

PersonMan
2010-05-26, 09:06 PM
What I do in my campaigns is use these rules for LA:
Each level of LA gives you 1+Con mod hit points
Each level of LA gives you 2+Int skill points
Each level of LA gives you +1/4 BAB
You can receive feats and ability boosts from LA

These make LA levels weaker than levels in any class, but reduce the impact of them on a character's strength, so the aformentioned Succubus with the +6 LA would get 6+(6*Con) hit points, 12+(6*Int) skill points, +4 BAB, 2 feats and an ability boost, as opposed to...well, nothing.


2) If you don't use ECL (or something very much like it) you have a problem: Some races are noticably more powerful than others. If the Succubus/Sorcerer-6 is in the same party as a Human Sorcerer-6, which is going to dominate the spotlight? So there has to be some form of counterweight for the racial benefits if you're going to permit nonstandard races.

Yeah, before I knew what LA/RHD/ECL was, I'd be playing monster PCs at level two. Mind Flayers, Minotaurs, etc., all without RHD and at level two, using a horribly overpowered stat bonus system.

We never actually played those games much, but still...

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 09:09 PM
That's a lot better. Whether or not it works sufficiently is another mystery (that I will never explore, as I like very few things with LA) - but it's a lot better. Kudos.

(Perhaps it should include a small boost to Manifester/Caster level, as well?)

PersonMan
2010-05-26, 09:16 PM
That's a lot better. Whether or not it works sufficiently is another mystery (that I will never explore, as I like very few things with LA) - but it's a lot better. Kudos.

(Perhaps it should include a small boost to Manifester/Caster level, as well?)

Yeah, the only one who's used it so far is a near-Powergamer in his level of optimization, so...I can't really see what sort of effect it has on a normal game.

I'm not sure. Maybe allow the Practiced Spellcaster feat to apply to LA? Or just say that 1/3 of your LA becomes caster/manifester levels? You're right, this would help things like the Mind Flayers, who're built to be wizards(or another Int-based class) but lose too many caster levels for it. Hmmm.

Parvum
2010-05-26, 09:22 PM
LA is another way of saying 'We don't take kindly to yer type adventurin' round here'. If you don't mind the homebrew, there is an alternative from someone here on the playground: Improved Monster Classes. An extension of the idea put forward in savage species. After all, HD are pretty much levels. Why not start with the first?

nedz
2010-05-26, 09:27 PM
The way I look at this is that (taking your example): succubus is CR 7 so succubus +11 class levels would be CR 18 and therefore (in theory at least) a match for a level 18 PC.
I know the CR system is also broken, but just less so than LA+RHD.

It is a little crazy that the system has two different metrics depending upon whether the character is a protagonist or antagonist.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-26, 09:28 PM
Obligatory Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724)

sofawall
2010-05-26, 09:50 PM
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Black Ethergaunt yet.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-26, 09:56 PM
It is a little crazy that the system has two different metrics depending upon whether the character is a protagonist or antagonist.
Not really. Fast Healing-1 has much less of an effect over the course of a single battle (what CR is supposed to measure) than it does over the course of a campaign (what ECL is supposed to measure). A critter with Fast Healing-1 is not much more of a challenge than a critter with no fast healing at all, if you run across it and try to kill it. However, if it's invading your fortress, a critter with Fast Healing-1 is much more of a challenge than a critter with no fast healing at all, as you can't let it stop and rest - if you do, you have to start the process of wearing it down all over again.

Runestar
2010-05-27, 02:26 AM
The way I look at this is that (taking your example): succubus is CR 7 so succubus +11 class levels would be CR 18 and therefore (in theory at least) a match for a level 18 PC.
I know the CR system is also broken, but just less so than LA+RHD.

It is a little crazy that the system has two different metrics depending upon whether the character is a protagonist or antagonist.

With good reason too. Cr and ECL measure 2 completely different things, and should never be confused with each other or used interchangeably, IMO. The reason being that the same ability can be of different value depending on whether you are an npc who will interact with the PCs for 3-5 rounds max, and whether you are a PC who gets to spam those abilities non-stop over the entire course of your adventuring career.

Charm monster at-will? One thing which comes to mind is to acquire your own personal thrall-army.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 02:32 AM
Not really. Fast Healing-1 has much less of an effect over the course of a single battle (what CR is supposed to measure) than it does over the course of a campaign (what ECL is supposed to measure). A critter with Fast Healing-1 is not much more of a challenge than a critter with no fast healing at all, if you run across it and try to kill it. However, if it's invading your fortress, a critter with Fast Healing-1 is much more of a challenge than a critter with no fast healing at all, as you can't let it stop and rest - if you do, you have to start the process of wearing it down all over again.

Same thing with At Will SLAs. Decent in a single encounter, amazing over the course of a campaign. Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport, Polymorph (humanoid form only, sure, but free access to Warshaper if you want), etc.

Ingus
2010-05-27, 04:40 AM
I think that WotC feared overuse of monsters as classes and then heavily discouraged it with a high ECL for almost every monster, or no class advancement at all.

So, much of monsters are suboptimal as character races. In some case, you can easily fix it. Take gnolls: if you rule that they have 1 racial hd instead of 2, it is not a big deal, really, and you can ponder weather to balance it back improving the LA to +2 instead of +1.

Removing racial HD from the Succibus could lead to very nasty things. If you agree to keep your character on a low level optimization, you can go straight on it. Else, you can figure it out a very wide range of tricks.

Runestar
2010-05-27, 04:53 AM
I think you can safely remove all the racial HD from gnolls and they still would be a decent LA+1 race (roughly on par with goliaths). :smallsmile:

Draxar
2010-05-27, 07:28 AM
I think it's the At Wills that make the Succubus so high LA. The 'Kiss you, drain a level, save or let me kiss again" is also rather nasty.

But the main thing is the ability to go "I need to cross that chasm? Greater Teleport! I need to get back to town? Greater Teleport! I need to get out of the dungeon before it explodes? Greater Teleport! We need to transport these goods from here to the other side of the country? Greater Teleport, Greater Teleport, Greater Teleport!

Ingus
2010-05-27, 07:58 AM
I think it's the At Wills that make the Succubus so high LA. The 'Kiss you, drain a level, save or let me kiss again" is also rather nasty.


Besides, who'll refuse to kiss such a pretty girl anyway? :smalltongue:

So, as I was saying, the great risk with monsters is that they are a one trick pet. Not so broken in conflict with PC's, but potentially abusive in game - and also boring

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-05-27, 10:10 PM
There is no quick and easy fix.Its been easily fixed for a long time. I hate to do so but perhaps I should pimp this more: with some common sense, PC ECL = Floor[HD/2-LA] + LA + Class levels

Click to see the common sense restrictions
0) This variant is done on a character by character basis. Some in the party might use this but, not all must. This is why its a 'variant' and is actually useful.

1) If a race has racial spellcasting related to its racial HD, remove that abilities racial power source up to it's HD. For instance an psychic Illithid would have no psuedo psion levels but a Spellweaver would still have 2 psuedo sorcerer levels. Remember that this variant is done in a character by character basis allowing a psionic illithid to not use this variant while a spellweaver in the party may chose it.

2) The racial HD does not get con bonus to HP as class levels do. DMs should be strongly encouraged to waive this exception if they want PCs with above average amounts of HP - IMO HP is way too low compared to the damage both PCs and Monsters can receive.

3) Skill points for the first level are not added twice. So a character with aberration/construct/elemental/giant/humanoid/magic beast/monstrous humanoid/ooze/plant racial HD and one class level may must use the crappy 4x(2+int) for their starting skill point allotment rather than their lovely 4x(8+int) rogue class level's starting skill points. If you are a nice DM you could give them the higher of the two.

4) Skill points from racial HD do not allow a character to exceed the normal 3+ECL max since the HD no longer count towards the ECL. For most cases, this is surprisingly not that needed of a restriction.

5) BAB still counts as long as the total BaB from HD and ECL doesn't exceed 20 (if it would exceed 20 it is instead set to 20). However PrC prereqs may, at DM discretion, not use the racial BAB.

6) Natural healing rate is based off of ECL and so is not affected by the free racial HD, though this might seem a bit counter intuitive. If you want the RHD to help, it shouldn't make much of a difference.

7) Per level option of LA or RHD counting towards the required level for buyoff. This makes buyoffs happen a bit earlier. For players who use restoration cheese add a 1 iteration cap on each buyoff tier level per LA row in the chart.

The beauty of this system is that it doesn't mistake CR for LA, it only allows races with given LA, and allows someone to pick a fun race without sucking forever because of it. Like any choice there are optimal and unoptimal options (dragons and outsiders are still good, as they were pre-variant), but atleast its not nearly as bad as before.

Succubi are good anyways because of their steep RP costs. Who wants to kiss an enemy to death anyways? A Succubus should gain its first PC level at time when DMM clerics persist 4th level spells. All the succubus stuff is on par for 3-5 level spell effects except the etherealness, which is still available via other methods to said at that level. So its powerful but we expect that from evil.

Endarire
2010-05-27, 10:27 PM
A crude fix:

A creature's level adjustment equals its CR + 1. The creature must otherwise be suitable to play in your campaign- usually humanoidal in shape, corporeal, sentient (INT 3+), and not a swarm.

This crude LA includes racial hit dice, meaning a Storm Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm) with no class levels is roughly equal to a level 14 unoptimized PC.

The Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-g/giant/storm) system works approximately like this.