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Caboose00
2010-05-27, 01:00 AM
I was wondering if anyone knew of a +1 LA template that is equal to, or better than the Dark creature template from Tome of Magic (Pact, Shadow, Truename Magic)?

All speeds are increased by 10 ft.
Special Qualities:
-Darkvision 60 ft.
-Hide in Plain Sight: Not usable in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect.
-Resistance to cold 10.
-Superior low-light vision.
Skills: +8 to Hide, +6 to Move Silently.
Level Adjustment: +1

The reason I ask this is because my DM is refusing to let me use this template with my back-up character (required by the DM). With the template, he would be a Scout 5 / Barbarian 2. He says the only way he will let me use the template with that level adjustment is if I can find another template that is just as good, if not better, than the Dark template. This is why I am asking for help. I am truly at a loss on this one, and I have been searching for a while.

I appreciate any help I can get on this one.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 01:03 AM
Half Minotaur. Download the template list from crystal keep here (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php)

It doesn't look like much at first but once you factor in the bonuses from size it's ridiculous.

Eloel
2010-05-27, 01:04 AM
Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)

Evolved Undead (Libris Mortis)

Primordial Giant is either +0LA or +1LA, can't remember. It's from Secrets of Xendrik.

Anthromorphic Bat is no-LA race that has like +4 (or was it +6) Wisdom. Seriously, Dark template is considered subpar (also thanks to the 30k item that gives the template for half (?) hour every day)

Vaynor
2010-05-27, 01:07 AM
Lolth-Touched (MM IV) is pretty good for a +1 LA if you're a melee class.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-27, 01:10 AM
A level of swordsage. (I know, I know.)

Koury
2010-05-27, 01:11 AM
Feral from Savage Species?

Simba
2010-05-27, 01:13 AM
+1 to feral.

Marriclay
2010-05-27, 01:15 AM
Feral is so wicked no DM I've met will allow it

Half-minotaur is really awesome too. +12 strength and +6 Constitution for +1 LA? yes please!

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 01:25 AM
Feral is pretty bad.

I can't get over the sheer hilarity of using an Anthropomorphic weasel as a druid though. Sure the Bat is better but the weasel is funnier.

Draz74
2010-05-27, 01:28 AM
Weasels are always funnier. For anything.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 01:30 AM
If I ever use one I'm going to ask my DM if I can just play it as a weasel that talks instead of the normal arms and legs most anthropomorphic animals get.

IonDragon
2010-05-27, 01:30 AM
Even from core, Aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm) could be argued to be better. Acid, Cold and Electicity reisit 5, Daylight as a SLA, +2 Cha, +2 Wis, +2 Search, spot.

Marriclay
2010-05-27, 01:33 AM
Even from core, Aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm) could be argued to be better. Acid, Cold and Electicity reisit 5, Daylight as a SLA, +2 Cha, +2 Wis, +2 Search, spot.

and with the feats from Races of faerun, you can gain multiple uses of that SLA and change those uses into deadly eye laser beams. not particularly optimized, but very, very cool.

gorfnab
2010-05-27, 01:33 AM
Feral (SS) is okay with some melee builds.
Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) can lead to some interesting builds.

Marriclay
2010-05-27, 01:39 AM
Feral (SS) is okay with some melee builds.

ok? OK?!

Feral has a pair of claws that deal damage like a longsword, fast healing that increases with your level, pounce, improved grapple, a bonus to movement speed, big bonuses to strength and constitution, more natural armor than an ogre, darkvision, and all that you take are hits to dexterity, intelligence, and charisma. All for +1 LA.

If that's not overpowered, I don't know what is.

Caboose00
2010-05-27, 01:40 AM
Thanks for all the good ones.

Also, can anyone tell me where I can find Anthropomorphic?

Marriclay
2010-05-27, 01:42 AM
Thanks for all the good ones.

Also, can anyone tell me where I can find Anthropomorphic?

that would be savage species, near the back. if you see a half-ogre, you've gone too far. the right section will be pointed out by a man-shaped donkey

man, how's that for weird directions?

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 01:42 AM
Thanks for all the good ones.

Also, can anyone tell me where I can find Anthropomorphic?

Savage Species.

Also, look up Half-Drow.

Caboose00
2010-05-27, 01:43 AM
that would be savage species, near the back. if you see a half-ogre, you've gone too far. the right section will be pointed out by a man-shaped donkey

man, how's that for weird directions?


Those were some of the best directions I've been given.

Marriclay
2010-05-27, 01:45 AM
Those were some of the best directions I've been given.

I'm adding that to my signature

Caboose00
2010-05-27, 01:48 AM
Now all I need to do is get my DM to read this thread so I can have the Dark template.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-27, 08:33 AM
hits to dexterity, intelligence, and charisma
That can be non-trivial.

Consider looking at Shadow-Walker (or whatever it's called) from Unapproachable East; it's another shadow-themed template.

katans
2010-05-27, 08:47 AM
Draconic (Races of the Dragon) is a good bet as well. +2 Str/Con/Cha, claws, lil' bit of NA, low-light and darkvision, save bonuses, skill bonuses... solid choice.

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 11:19 AM
I second Primordial Giant and Feral. Feral can (and probably would) break almost any game where its allowed.

Greenish
2010-05-27, 11:42 AM
Half Minotaur. Download the template list from crystal keep here (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php)

It doesn't look like much at first but once you factor in the bonuses from size it's ridiculous.Doesn't look much? Even without the stats changes from the size increase, you still get the bloody size increase!

And all those goodies can be stacked on a ridiculously strong base race (like human) for mere +1 LA? Goliaths and half-giants are +1 with worse stats by far and mere Powerful Build.

deuxhero
2010-05-27, 11:46 AM
Level 1 of half-fey savage progressions is pretty good.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-27, 11:51 AM
Also worth noting that Dark's version of HiPS is pretty damn weak. Yes, it's free HiPS, but it's not nearly as good as others - it lets you hide while being watched, but you still need Cover or Concealment, which are usually the much bigger problem.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 11:55 AM
Doesn't look much? Even without the stats changes from the size increase, you still get the bloody size increase!

And all those goodies can be stacked on a ridiculously strong base race (like human) for mere +1 LA? Goliaths and half-giants are +1 with worse stats by far and mere Powerful Build.

Which is why I say the Half Ogre & Half Minotaur templates there at LA +1 are broken.

The Half Ogre in Races of Destiny is the same as the template on that site and LA +2

Jair Barik
2010-05-27, 12:07 PM
Weasels are always funnier. For anything.

Problem is they have dreadful disguise check penalties. After all, a weasel is weasely wecognised. Of course a stoat is stoatally different....

Marriclay
2010-05-27, 12:09 PM
Which is why I say the Half Ogre & Half Minotaur templates there at LA +1 are broken.

The Half Ogre in Races of Destiny is the same as the template on that site and LA +2

good thing then that half-ogre is a race rather than a template. one other difference between the savage species version and the races of destiny version is that in savage species they're humanoids with the giant blood subtype, but in races of destiny they're straight up giants. make of that what you will

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 12:17 PM
good thing then that half-ogre is a race rather than a template. one other difference between the savage species version and the races of destiny version is that in savage species they're humanoids with the giant blood subtype, but in races of destiny they're straight up giants. make of that what you will

I'm sorry, but being Giant Type vs. being Humanoid (Giant) is not worth +1 LA.

The Half-Minotaur & Half-Ogre (Savage Species/Website version) at LA +1 are broken.

Jair Barik
2010-05-27, 12:21 PM
Perhaps then consider that Savage species was a 3E book and Races of destiny 3.5? Could it perhaps be that they realised the template was a bit strong and so made into a higher LA race instead? You know, just a thought on that.

Claudius Maximus
2010-05-27, 12:23 PM
It's clearly supposed to replace the template, but I'm wondering if it actually does by RAW, since they're not exactly the same category. It would be hilarious if you could play a Half-Ogre Half-Ogre.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-27, 12:26 PM
ok? OK?!

Feral has a pair of claws that deal damage like a longsword, fast healing that increases with your level, pounce, improved grapple ...
OK, hold your (feral) horses. That's not Improved Grapple; it's Improved Grab. Plus you probably don't get those special attacks (Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake, and Rend). You've got to read the template more carefully.
It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice Darkvision and Fast Healing are a function of your character hit dice, but you gain the special attacks only if you take levels of monstrous human HD.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 12:33 PM
Improved Grab is better, IMHO, than Improved Grapple...

But I haven't seen anyone take the "Monster Levels" interpretation before... Good limiter.

DericksDM
2010-05-27, 04:12 PM
I was wondering if anyone knew of a +1 LA template that is equal to, or better than the Dark creature template from Tome of Magic (Pact, Shadow, Truename Magic)?

All speeds are increased by 10 ft.
Special Qualities:
-Darkvision 60 ft.
-Hide in Plain Sight: Not usable in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect.
-Resistance to cold 10.
-Superior low-light vision.
Skills: +8 to Hide, +6 to Move Silently.
Level Adjustment: +1

The reason I ask this is because my DM is refusing to let me use this template with my back-up character (required by the DM). With the template, he would be a Scout 5 / Barbarian 2. He says the only way he will let me use the template with that level adjustment is if I can find another template that is just as good, if not better, than the Dark template. This is why I am asking for help. I am truly at a loss on this one, and I have been searching for a while.

I appreciate any help I can get on this one.

Hi this is cabooses DM. a few misrepresentations should be addressed here:
1. I have not restricted him from playing this template.
2. I had only suggested i may nerf the Level adjustment in the interest of game balance.
3. I even was going to allow him to play it at LA +1 and possibly nerf it after his character had run through a campaign.


My reasoning for the nerf is specifically HIPS its ridiculous easy to get this way, very breakable. Consider the alternative methods of squiring HIPS, how deep into generation it is, and really consider the impact HIPS has in game, its a nasty ability when used in and out of combat. I was considering saying it was a lvl 3 adjustment rather than 1. And Mr caboose, the only reason i said "show me something else LA 1 that's that cool" was to make the point that its broken, it should have been obvious to you.

Ill admit I haven't reviewed all of the templates outlined in this thread but the few i have aren't applicable to the argument, which is a non point as i said show me one that does to make a point, not to leave it at LA 1 if you can. FYI to all he cried to about this, we only use 3.5, 3.0 stuff used upon approval, and we don't allow campaign setting material <Primordial Giant is Ebberon>. Oh and seriously, comparing this template to the evolved undead from lib mortis, you should actually read evolved undead, not nearly as cool.
Some of these templates are totally going into my toolbox though :-) good info here, I am glad I am a member now. Stay cool all.

Koury
2010-05-27, 04:16 PM
I'd suggest reading the version of HiPS gained from the Dark template. It is markedly worse then other versions of HiPS.

Greenish
2010-05-27, 04:16 PM
My reasoning for the nerf is specifically HIPS its ridiculous easy to get this way, very breakable. Consider the alternative methods of squiring HIPS, how deep into generation it is, and really consider the impact HIPS has in game, its a nasty ability when used in and out of combat.As has been pointed out, dark template's HiPS is a very weak version of the ability. Most of the classes gain a stronger version (or complementary abilities such as ranger).

[Edit]: Ninjas, argh!

Anyway, the worst hiding can do is make a character hard to find. You can still kill his allies, you can sniff him out with scent/blindsight/blindsense/tremorsense/mindsight/echolocation etc.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-27, 04:18 PM
I was considering saying it was a lvl 3 adjustment rather than 1.
I can literally think of no printed template that is worth LA +3.

But I'm glad you can come to a resolution.

Draz74
2010-05-27, 04:22 PM
Well, DericksDM, I think the general consensus is:


Most LA +1 templates are a lot weaker than taking another character level, and are thus terrible choices as far as character power goes.
Half-Minotaur and Feral are the strongest LA +1 templates. Probably overpowered.
Dark is one of the few LA +1 templates (along with Mineral Warrior) that are considered more-or-less equally powerful to having another character level.


Of course it depends a lot on your campaign. A character with a strong class is hurt a lot more by LA +1 than a Monk or Fighter is. It also depends whether you are allowing your characters to use the LA Buyoff variant rules, and whether the magic item that grants the Dark template (with no LA; "Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis") will be available.


I can literally think of no printed template that is worth LA +3.

Paragon? :smallwink: Or did you mean a printed template that is printed as LA +3, and is also actually worth LA +3?

Greenish
2010-05-27, 04:24 PM
I can literally think of no printed template that is worth LA +3.Half-pun-pun?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-27, 04:26 PM
Paragon?

Half-pun-pun?

Clarification: I can think of no template worth no more and no less than LA +3.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-27, 04:26 PM
OK, hold your (feral) horses. That's not Improved Grapple; it's Improved Grab. Plus you probably don't get those special attacks (Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake, and Rend). You've got to read the template more carefully. Darkvision and Fast Healing are a function of your character hit dice, but you gain the special attacks only if you take levels of monstrous human HD.

I can always count on Curmudgeon to say what I was just about to say, in fewer words.

Just for those who may not have figured it out, those monstrous humanoid HD can come from a savage progression, since those aren't actually class HD.

The best +1 LA templates are Half Minotaur, Feral, Mineral Warrior and Lloth-Touched. I would recommend staying away from them unless you are playing in a group with a moderate amount of cheese. Lloth-Touched is probably the least of these, but is still incredibly good for +1 LA, though it does require you to be Chaotic Evil, iirc.

I made the mistake of allowing someone to use the mineral warrior template and even at level 11 the DR 8/adamantine for a mere +1 LA annoyed both myself and the other players. It made him overconfident however and his character fell to a leaping power-attacker via a failed fortitude save for massive damage. (It had already been established that the creature was doing about 50 damage per hit, and the mineral warrior had begun to taunt it to 'protect' the blurred displaced wizard with mirror images.

Now I want a feral horse. There's just something about a horse with claw attacks...

DericksDM
2010-05-27, 04:26 PM
Ok read a bit deeper here,
The feral template is broken, but to be fair it only helps with physicals really.
And as for the HIPS being ridiculous less cool, your totally right, I reviewed it again <overlooking things can happen from time to time i have alot of work as a dm ya know>
on that note i would have to say a nerf is not in order, but mr caboose was out of line for saying i wasn't going to let him play it. ok i feel better now.

so since you all rock at info can you answer my eternal quest question?
Whats a good easy low level template that hikes my CHA real good, so hard to pump that stat it seems, always want new options

Marriclay
2010-05-27, 04:27 PM
I can literally think of no printed template that is worth LA +3.

But I'm glad you can come to a resolution.

well, half-dragon is listed as +3, but it certainly isn't worth it...

Koury
2010-05-27, 04:30 PM
Isn't there a Magic Blooded, or Mage Blooded template thats +0 that gives like +2 Cha?

EDIT: Out of curiosity, is the OP named Derick?

DericksDM
2010-05-27, 04:30 PM
Well, DericksDM, I think the general consensus is:


Most LA +1 templates are a lot weaker than taking another character level, and are thus terrible choices as far as character power goes.
Half-Minotaur and Feral are the strongest LA +1 templates. Probably overpowered.
Dark is one of the few LA +1 templates (along with Mineral Warrior) that are considered more-or-less equally powerful to having another character level.


Of course it depends a lot on your campaign. A character with a strong class is hurt a lot more by LA +1 than a Monk or Fighter is. It also depends whether you are allowing your characters to use the LA Buyoff variant rules, and whether the magic item that grants the Dark template (with no LA; "Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis") will be available.



Paragon? :smallwink: Or did you mean a printed template that is printed as LA +3, and is also actually worth LA +3?
Caboose just showed me the buy off for LA, im really digging it, ill probably add it.

DericksDM
2010-05-27, 04:32 PM
Isn't there a Magic Blooded, or Mage Blooded template thats +0 that gives like +2 Cha?

I could cry if there is

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 04:32 PM
Well if you'd be willing to accept a race (Although, by the sound of it it should be a template) Deathtouched from dragon magazine should work. Download a pdf of races here. (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php)

Koury
2010-05-27, 04:37 PM
I could cry if there is

I think its -2 Wis, +2 Cha.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-27, 04:40 PM
The venerable template gives +3 Charisma, Int, and Wis, at the cost of -6 Str, Dex, and Con (not a big deal if you're a druid, or use metamorphosis or polymorph all the time, and not quite so big a deal if you're undead). It's Core, too. :smallamused:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-27, 04:41 PM
I think its -2 Wis, +2 Cha.

I'm thinking of the same one, but I can't find it on Crystalkeep.

EDIT: Ah, because it's in 3.0.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-27, 04:41 PM
Hi this is cabooses DM. a few misrepresentations should be addressed here:
1. I have not restricted him from playing this template.
2. I had only suggested i may nerf the Level adjustment in the interest of game balance.
3. I even was going to allow him to play it at LA +1 and possibly nerf it after his character had run through a campaign.


My reasoning for the nerf is specifically HIPS its ridiculous easy to get this way, very breakable. Consider the alternative methods of squiring HIPS, how deep into generation it is, and really consider the impact HIPS has in game, its a nasty ability when used in and out of combat.


The 3.5 rules for hiding, where you need cover or concealment to hide, are retarded. That makes Rogues run around with tower shields so that they can hide themselves and their equipment behind the cover of the tower shield (including the tower shield itself, which makes my brain hurt). Yes, you can totally hide when there are no intervening objects between you and the victim. It's called "sneaking up behind people" and in a game with no facing it's handled with a hide check opposed by spot.

(Dungeonomicon quoted only because I agree with it. I'm not trying to say it's RAW.) Let the martial character have nice things. Even with the Dark template, he still needs cover. Basically Dark gives the abilities to hide in shadows which isn't all that far-fetched or overpowering, especially if he's expending move actions every round to hide, or is using his actions for sniping. I'm currently playing in a game with a character who has the Dark template. After a sneak attack or two, enemies start to keep their eye on him. Occasionally other characters will distract them to give him a chance to hide again. Just be willing to say, "The monster, seeing his companion fall from a blow to the spine against a formerly unrevealed foe, is now watching the sneaky bastard carefully" once in awhile.

Greenish
2010-05-27, 04:41 PM
Whats a good easy low level template that hikes my CHA real good, so hard to pump that stat it seems, always want new options
Dragonic +2 cha, +1 LA
Half-fey +4 cha, +2 LA
Half-nymph +4 cha, +2 LA
Half-vampire +4 cha, +2 LA
Entropic creature +2 cha, +2 LA
Gravetouched ghoul +2 cha, +2 LA
Fire-souled +4 cha, +1 LA
Saint +2 cha, +2 LA
Special mention for Great Wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold.

[Edit]: That's not a complete list of templates that grant charisma and can be found from crystal keep. I didn't include anything with more than +2 LA.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 04:44 PM
[LIST]
Fire-souled +4 cha, +1 LA
.

Oooh. Where's this from?

Greenish
2010-05-27, 04:45 PM
Oooh. Where's this from?Dragon Mag. #314. Also gives you Leadership for free, Haste at character level 1/day and a few miscellaneous bonuses.

Koury
2010-05-27, 04:46 PM
I'm thinking of the same one, but I can't find it on Crystalkeep.

EDIT: Ah, because it's in 3.0.

Ah, that'd be the one. Has it been reprinted or otherwise invalidated, or is it still good to go?

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 04:46 PM
Dragon Mag. #314. Also gives you Leadership for free, Haste at character level 1/day and a few miscellaneous bonuses.

..........yeah, my DM isn't going to allow me to use this.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 04:52 PM
Fey-Kissed (Both Template & Feat) is a good Cha booster, isn't it?

Greenish
2010-05-27, 04:55 PM
..........yeah, my DM isn't going to allow me to use this.Oh, and immunity to stun & daze, that can't really be filed under "misc." like the morale bonuses for allies and stealing cha-based special attacks.

Good thing Dragon Magazine is so wonderfully balanced, eh?

The Glyphstone
2010-05-27, 04:56 PM
Oh, and immunity to stun & daze, that can't really be filed under "misc." like the morale bonuses for allies and stealing cha-based special attacks.

Good thing Dragon Magazine is so wonderfully balanced, eh?

Does the absolute drek that is the Dvatai race balance it out again? :smallwink:

Caboose00
2010-05-27, 05:58 PM
EDIT: Out of curiosity, is the OP named Derick?

It would be literally pointless to say that Derick is not my name considering that my DM has it in his name on here. Thanks_____

Koury
2010-05-27, 06:06 PM
If it makes you feel better, my name is Koury. :smallbiggrin:

Caboose00
2010-05-27, 06:20 PM
If it makes you feel better, my name is Koury. :smallbiggrin:

It really does make me feel better. I like the idea of knowing people's names. It makes way for my master plan to come into effect.


Ok read a bit deeper here,
The feral template is broken, but to be fair it only helps with physicals really.
And as for the HIPS being ridiculous less cool, your totally right, I reviewed it again <overlooking things can happen from time to time i have alot of work as a dm ya know>
on that note i would have to say a nerf is not in order, but mr caboose was out of line for saying i wasn't going to let him play it. ok i feel better now.

Yes, I was out of line for wording it the way I did. The options you presented me with though made it feel to me as though you were saying no. The idea of that having a +3 LA just seemed insane to me, as well as the other option of being the template but being restricted to Bard was just....Ewwww.

Koury
2010-05-27, 06:25 PM
It really does make me feel better. I like the idea of knowing people's names. It makes way for my master plan to come into effect.

Yay, Im helping! :elan:

Caboose00
2010-05-27, 06:35 PM
Yay, Im helping! :elan:

This has now become a part of my signature. I thank you.

sofawall
2010-05-27, 06:35 PM
My name, for the record, is not sofawall.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 06:37 PM
My name, for the record, is not sofawall.

Nor is mine Kyuubi. I am a nine tailed demon fox though. Among other things.

Caboose00
2010-05-27, 06:40 PM
I feel like I have started to spread fear and panic among the people.

Excellent

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 07:01 PM
I am The Cat Goddess.

That is all that is required of you to know.

You may promptly forget everything else.

DericksDM
2010-05-27, 07:03 PM
The venerable template gives +3 Charisma, Int, and Wis, at the cost of -6 Str, Dex, and Con (not a big deal if you're a druid, or use metamorphosis or polymorph all the time, and not quite so big a deal if you're undead). It's Core, too. :smallamused:

or if your polymorphing any object to redcap.

balistafreak
2010-05-27, 07:11 PM
Fire-souled +4 cha, +1 LA

I absolutely refused to believe that this was that good, so I quickly, ahem, acquired a copy of Dragon 314 just for the purpose of clarification.

It's CR +1, not LA +1. It's actually LA +3 which probably makes it totally not worth the loss of levels.

Somehow, I have the feeling that more than one of the rest in the list is also taken from the CR line, not the LA line.

You say you got this from Crystal Keep?

sofawall
2010-05-27, 07:22 PM
I absolutely refused to believe that this was that good...

Really? What about +6 wis for no LA? +12 Str for +1 LA?

Caboose00
2010-05-27, 08:13 PM
I am The Cat Goddess.

That is all that is required of you to know.

You may promptly forget everything else.

You have given me nothing else to forget. Therefore I cannot forget something I do not already know.

balistafreak
2010-05-27, 08:54 PM
Really? What about +6 wis for no LA? +12 Str for +1 LA?

Nah. Stat boosts are great and all, but money and clever construction can help emulate ridiculous stats. (I mean, after a certain threshold you're one-shotting most anything and the DM self-corrects so that your ridiculous stats cease to be.)

It wasn't the charisma bonus that turned me off, it was the free Leadership feat. Stat boosts are silver - bonus feats, especially feats as exploitable as Leadership (because if you're taking this template for Leadership by golly you have a plan for it), are golden.

Without digressing too much, even a basic fighter Cohort is pretty bloody good return for a feat, much less anything even semi-optimized: playing a Warblade cohort is almost as fast and exponentially better.

(I'm in the process of statting out a 3 or 7-man adventuring party at ECL 6-8, depending how you handle second-tier cohorts, that you could claim was just one character. It's pretty hilarious, and no sane DM would ever allow it, but it's a fun exercise.)

And all at LA +1 as before. Oh, and I think as written you can receive Leadership earlier than you're supposed to, which has to be worth something.

As it stands at LA +3, it's a cool little template that probably won't see much use.

sofawall
2010-05-27, 09:00 PM
Getting a free feat? Something I could totally see for an LA+1 template. Getting Leadership? Again, something I could totally see. Why can I see that?

Well, WotC apparently decided that Leadership was about as powerful as Whirlwind Attack, assuming prereqs are a judge of power.

Thurbane
2010-05-27, 10:43 PM
Is it just me, or are most of the broken best +1 templates from Dragon mag and/or 3.0 sources? :smallamused:

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 10:50 PM
Well, Dragon magazine isn't all bad. I don't think the deathtouched is too horribly broken. (+1 LA race) Although the SLAs may do something I'm not aware of.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-27, 10:51 PM
Nor is mine Kyuubi. I am a nine tailed demon fox though. Among other things.

Actual picture of Kyuubi:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/Chibi_nine_tailed_fox_by_Jen_Jen_Ro.png

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 10:52 PM
Is it just me, or are most of the broken best +1 templates from Dragon mag and/or 3.0 sources? :smallamused:

The Templates that got updated to 3.5 are generally pretty well balanced... which is why I say Half-Minotaur is so broken compared to Half-Ogre (for Races of Destiny).

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 10:57 PM
Actual picture of Kyuubi:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/Chibi_nine_tailed_fox_by_Jen_Jen_Ro.png

uh uh. Sorry, not me. I look WAAAAAAAAY different.

I'm not justa nine tailed demon fox.

I'm a nine tailed celestial fiendish demon fox half silver half pyroclastic dragon Paladin Druid of Bahamut.

Might be forgetting something

Vulaas
2010-05-27, 11:57 PM
uh uh. Sorry, not me. I look WAAAAAAAAY different.

I'm not justa nine tailed demon fox.

I'm a nine tailed celestial fiendish demon fox half silver half pyroclastic dragon Paladin Druid of Bahamut.

Might be forgetting something

I think you forgot application of the Mary Sue template.

Marriclay
2010-05-28, 12:07 AM
I think you forgot application of the Mary Sue template.

huh. Didn't think DMs ever allowed that one, since it's so incredibly overpowered

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-28, 02:46 AM
huh. Didn't think DMs ever allowed that one, since it's so incredibly overpowered

Haven't run into a lot of DMPCs, have you?

AvatarZero
2010-05-28, 05:18 AM
Veering back on topic for a moment, Necropolitan from Libris Mortis is a +0 template that costs a level (because it kills you:smallwink:). Not quite a +1 template, but a good template. All the benefits of being undead, plus natural healing, with no actual level adjustment. Just make sure not to apply it to anyone below level 3...because it kills you.

You lose a level, as Raise Dead, then lose 1000xp. Anyone lower than level 3 will be reduced to negative xp and permanently destroyed with no hope of resurrection. Ouch.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 06:07 AM
I absolutely refused to believe that this was that good, so I quickly, ahem, acquired a copy of Dragon 314 just for the purpose of clarification.

You say you got this from Crystal Keep?I don't have the access to Dragon Magazines, so I can't check them, but yeah, Crystal Keep lists Fire-Souled as +1 LA (and +1 CR).

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-28, 10:05 AM
Feral is so wicked no DM I've met will allow it


haha i did once. . . my own fault, i hadn't read the template i just let the player describe it.

feral is AWSOMELY powerful

as is mineral warrior

both are INCREDIBLY powerful

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 11:35 AM
My suggestion:

a Primordial Dvati Half-Ogre. Done, and for (granted a slightly high) 2 LA, you're a mage expert. Be a warlock and blast away

Mystic Muse
2010-05-28, 11:39 AM
I think you forgot application of the Mary Sue template.

Nope. Not a Mary sue. I have plenty of flaws. (Mostly character flaws that tend to come up a lot. Plus mechanical ones and a weakness to fire)

I'm just really powerful and have a bunch of templates.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-05-28, 10:43 PM
I allow feral. Feral Fighter19 vs Wizard20 anyone? We all know melees can't have nice things :smalleek:


OK, hold your (feral) horses....TY as usual for using the rules to save us.


I can literally think of no printed template that is actually worth the LA +3.Seconded, barring shenanigans of the likes of me.

keep in mind that crystal keep isn't perfect and has a large error concerning fire-souled

as a side note I love it went people derail threads about how much other should know about who they are, which usually requires repeating their handle