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Rainbownaga
2010-05-27, 01:35 AM
In 3.0 it was broken, in 3.5 it seems pretty "meh". 1/20 chance of killing a target vulnerable to decapitation per successful hit.

Question: How much damage would it do to give the players a +1 vorpal (exotic weapon that noone's proficient with) at level 2? My logic is that pretty much anything is going to die with a critical hit at low levels anyway, and by the time they figure out how to get enough successful attacks with an exotic weapon, the pitiful +1 is going to be a limiting factor.

Selling it isn't too big a deal (since the 'all items sellable at half market value' isn't written in stone and it isn't too hard to justify a lack of interest) nor is one hitting someone they shouldn't (Which is actually kinda cool).

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-27, 01:40 AM
It's probably not worth a +5 market modifier, but it's definitely a bit OP in the hands of a level 2 character. I suppose the proficiency issue balances that out, though. Just note that at later levels you often don't need weapons above a +1 enhancement bonus anyway, due to the availability of Greater Magic Weapon.

Draz74
2010-05-27, 02:04 AM
In 3.0 it was broken, in 3.5 it seems pretty "meh". 1/20 chance of killing a target vulnerable to decapitation per successful hit.

Question: How much damage would it do to give the players a +1 vorpal (exotic weapon that noone's proficient with) at level 2? My logic is that pretty much anything is going to die with a critical hit at low levels anyway, and by the time they figure out how to get enough successful attacks with an exotic weapon, the pitiful +1 is going to be a limiting factor.

Selling it isn't too big a deal (since the 'all items sellable at half market value' isn't written in stone and it isn't too hard to justify a lack of interest) nor is one hitting someone they shouldn't (Which is actually kinda cool).

Shouldn't cause much of a problem as far as I can see.

Ashram
2010-05-27, 02:16 AM
Not really broken, unless you find a 9th level cleric or a UMD-monkey who finds a scroll of Surge of Fortune... And then they get a free auto-decapitation so long as they can confirm a critical hit.

lsfreak
2010-05-27, 03:40 AM
Considering the amount of damage output of dedicated blasters, shadowpouncers, uberchargers, Jack B. Quicks, swift hunters, and... I could keep going, a 1 in 20 chance of decapitation (no effect on undead, constructs, plants, many aberrations, and a non-insignificant number of other creatures) probably isn't worth more than a +1 enhancement. Depends heavily on the level of optimization of the game, though.

Ingus
2010-05-27, 04:06 AM
Deep into the Magic Item Compendium there is a cheap system of automatic critical hit + automatic critical confirmation (you only need the latter). Add something to hit contact instead of normal and surge of fortune.
Then consider that there are two kind of creatures immune to decapitation: antropomorphic creatures and creatures without discernable anatomy. Only the latter are decapitation free, the former...
Imagine: decapitate a vampire, then put his head in your bag. Now, the rest of the body is still active, but how can he see, or smell, or hear? And talk with a vampire head is a really funny, funny roleplay. This require a bit of DM approval, but I definitely think it make sense

Amphetryon
2010-05-27, 04:10 AM
Wounding as a +3 and Vorpal as a +4 is more in keeping with 3.x power levels, but it's priced based on legacy issues.

mint
2010-05-27, 04:21 AM
You introduce an effect that ha a lot of potential to frustrate and as you say, pretty much anything is going to go down from a critical hit at a low level. Except the NPCs that you statted so that they would be able to survive a critical strike...
I think vorpal seems like a hassle.

Greenish
2010-05-27, 04:37 AM
Imagine: decapitate a vampire, then put his head in your bag. Now, the rest of the body is still active, but how can he see, or smell, or hear? And talk with a vampire head is a really funny, funny roleplay. This require a bit of DM approval, but I definitely think it make senseVampires are specifically called as being affected by the decapitation.

paddyfool
2010-05-27, 04:40 AM
A +1 enhancement? Everyone and their dog would take it, and everyone and their dog would also need crit immunity. (+3 or +4, however, might well be reasonable, since currently no-one takes it).

If you want your character at level 2 to have a Vorpal weapon, then fine, give it to him but have the weapon have some kind of epic-level curse that makes it impossible to sell or give away; it can only be taken in combat from its previous owner, or left by them to their descendents or something. Otherwise it'll break WBL into a million shiny pieces.

Bharg
2010-05-27, 04:43 AM
Vampires are specifically called as being affected by the decapitation.

Depends very much on the scenario and the DM I guess.
Vampires are very fluffy creatures of darkness.

Greenish
2010-05-27, 04:48 AM
Depends very much on the scenario and the DM I guess.
Vampires are very fluffy creatures of darkness.Obviously anything can be changed by houserules. I don't think it's worth pointing out at every juncture.
Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off.

Koury
2010-05-27, 05:01 AM
Obviously anything can be changed by houserules.

Well, in one of the games I play in, the DM changed that.

I just feel like that may be worth pointing out.

lsfreak
2010-05-27, 05:07 AM
A +1 enhancement? Everyone and their dog would take it, and everyone and their dog would also need crit immunity. (+3 or +4, however, might well be reasonable, since currently no-one takes it).


"I decapitate you" and "I hit for twice your hit points over 3 attacks" are effectively the same, which is what the game slowly becomes starting around 6th level (when shock trooper comes into play) and reaching full-swing by 10th/12th.

Greenish
2010-05-27, 05:10 AM
Well, in one of the games I play in, the DM changed that.

I just feel like that may be worth pointing out.Then it also has to be pointed out that if you use the bell curve variant rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/bellCurveRolls.htm), vorpal is even less useful. If you have a rule stating that all threats are automatic crits, vorpal will be slightly better.

If you have houseruled that losing one's head is a minor inconvenience at the worst for most living creatures but is the only way to slay oozes, then vorpal is generally useless, but you ought to carry one in the party anyway.

If you have a houserule that the DM will buy everyone a pizza on successful decapitation, you should have at least one kicking around.

Koury
2010-05-27, 05:16 AM
Then it also has to be pointed out that if you use the bell curve variant rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/bellCurveRolls.htm), vorpal is even less useful. If you have a rule stating that all threats are automatic crits, vorpal will be slightly better.

If you have houseruled that losing one's head is a minor inconvenience at the worst for most living creatures but is the only way to slay oozes, then vorpal is generally useless, but you ought to carry one in the party anyway.

If you have a houserule that the DM will buy everyone a pizza on successful decapitation, you should have at least one kicking around

I was just teasing, of course. My bad that it wasn't clear enough. :smallsmile:

Greenish
2010-05-27, 05:19 AM
I was just teasing, of course. My bad that it wasn't clear enough. :smallsmile:I don't understand subtleties before my morning tea.

Anyway, free pizza on decapitation would be an awesome houserule, unless you happen to be the DM.

paddyfool
2010-05-27, 05:19 AM
"I decapitate you" and "I hit for twice your hit points over 3 attacks" are effectively the same, which is what the game slowly becomes starting around 6th level (when shock trooper comes into play) and reaching full-swing by 10th/12th.

Ah, but there are melee defenses against shock trooper (readied attacks with spearlike weapons set against charges, AoOs with reach weapons etc. mean that his sacrificing all his AC is going to hurt him, and even boosting your AC works if you can get it high enough). Only miss chances and crit immunity offer any protection against Vorpal, however, and with luck rerolls, lots of attacks etc. it gets pretty murderous.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-27, 05:21 AM
"I decapitate you" and "I hit for twice your hit points over 3 attacks" are effectively the same, which is what the game slowly becomes starting around 6th level (when shock trooper comes into play) and reaching full-swing by 10th/12th.

Well, actually, "I decapitate you!" is harder to heal. It requires Resurrection, rather than Raise Dead.

Koury
2010-05-27, 05:22 AM
I don't understand subtleties before my morning tea.

Anyway, free pizza on decapitation would be an awesome houserule, unless you happen to be the DM.

Morning tea?! It's like 4 am here and I'm still up. Maybe I'm just not as clever as I think I am when its so late.

It's ok though, we can still be friends (yay!). :smalltongue:

crazedloon
2010-05-27, 05:27 AM
Well, actually, "I decapitate you!" is harder to heal. It requires Resurrection, rather than Raise Dead.

who doesn't dismember everything they kill :smalltongue:

Ingus
2010-05-27, 05:31 AM
A cup of tea for Greenish, so :smalltongue:

I think that the decapitation + holy wafers only stops him from regeneration, but it is a opinable call. but, just to say, apply it on a marut, a lich (so preventing him to being slain and reform from his phylactery) an elemental and so on.

This - to come back on topic - to support the usefulness of vorpal. I'll never ever give it to players at 2nd level. Also because at low/mid levels, it can be very nasty for monsters

Greenish
2010-05-27, 06:06 AM
Morning tea?! It's like 4 am here and I'm still up. Maybe I'm just not as clever as I think I am when its so late.It's not exactly morning here either, but I've never let such trifles stop me from having morning tea. :smallcool:

A cup of tea for Greenish, so :smalltongue:Yay!

I think that the decapitation + holy wafers only stops him from regeneration, but it is a opinable call.Yeah, it doesn't directly state that the decapitation destroys the vampire, only that it affects them.
but, just to say, apply it on a marut, a lich (so preventing him to being slain and reform from his phylactery)I'm not sure decapitation would bother a lich much. Many of them have done away with their bodies anyway. :smallwink:

This - to come back on topic - to support the usefulness of vorpal. I'll never ever give it to players at 2nd level. Also because at low/mid levels, it can be very nasty for monstersI'm not a big fan of SoDs and other instant death effects. Luck should play a part in a battle, but one roll shouldn't be the deciding factor.

paddyfool
2010-05-27, 06:10 AM
I'm not a big fan of SoDs and other instant death effects. Luck should play a part in a battle, but one roll shouldn't be the deciding factor.

If one player wants a real wildcard of a weapon, and is prepared to accept some cost for it, then fine. If the monsters have these, though, combat rapidly becomes not-fun for the players, hence why I oppose having it as a simple +1 enhancement.

Runestar
2010-05-27, 06:18 AM
I could have sworn wotc mentioned somewhere that crit immunity does not negate vorpal...:smallconfused:

I think the problem with vorpal is that it has too strong a possible effect - instant death (however rare that may be), so you need low odds to balance out a powerful effect. But +5 definitely seems too costly, maybe +4 or even +3 with some caveats.

Inability to control timing is also another drawback - it rocks if you roll a nat 20 on your 1st hit against demogorgon, but if that blow happens to be the final blow anyways, or if he is already very near death...

olentu
2010-05-27, 06:23 AM
I could have sworn wotc mentioned somewhere that crit immunity does not negate vorpal...:smallconfused:

I think the problem with vorpal is that it has too strong a possible effect - instant death (however rare that may be), so you need low odds to balance out a powerful effect. But +5 definitely seems too costly, maybe +4 or even +3 with some caveats.

Inability to control timing is also another drawback - it rocks if you roll a nat 20 on your 1st hit against demogorgon, but if that blow happens to be the final blow anyways, or if he is already very near death...

Crit immunity does not negate vorpal.

Rainbownaga
2010-05-27, 06:37 AM
Ah, but there are melee defenses against shock trooper (readied attacks with spearlike weapons set against charges, AoOs with reach weapons etc. mean that his sacrificing all his AC is going to hurt him, and even boosting your AC works if you can get it high enough). Only miss chances and crit immunity offer any protection against Vorpal, however, and with luck rerolls, lots of attacks etc. it gets pretty murderous.

Shouldn't that be AC and miss chance? Crit immunity doesn't stop decapitation and AC can drop the chance to 1/400.

Runestar
2010-05-27, 06:58 AM
I would also like to point out that when vorpal does not kick in, that is +5 worth of weapon enhancements which could have been spent on other weapon properties which actually do something. Such as the discipline weapon properties (ToB, adds +3 to-hit, +1), holy (DMG, +2d6 vs evil foes, overcomes dr/good, +2) etc.

Over the long run, you would likely be better off with more consistent benefits.

Maybe its benefit should be revised to something more consistent (and watered down), maybe bonus damage on a crit or something? I honestly cannot imagine anyone springing for the existing +5 vorpal ability as presented. :smallsigh:

true_shinken
2010-05-27, 07:59 AM
Anyone with Surge of Fortune would LOVE a vorpal weapon, period.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-27, 08:46 AM
"I decapitate you" and "I hit for twice your hit points over 3 attacks" are effectively the same, which is what the game slowly becomes starting around 6th level (when shock trooper comes into play) and reaching full-swing by 10th/12th.

Of course, that brings to mind another thing to consider - as much as this forum does advocate it, there are still a lot of games out there with low optimization levels, where sword-and-board fighters are still the baseline. Generally, instant-kill effects like Vorpal become more valuable the lower your game's optimization level, because it's much less likely your standard attack routine will also oneshot enemies (exceptions do exist, such as Surge of Fortune).

Quietus
2010-05-27, 08:57 AM
A cup of tea for Greenish, so :smalltongue:

I think that the decapitation + holy wafers only stops him from regeneration, but it is a opinable call. but, just to say, apply it on a marut, a lich (so preventing him to being slain and reform from his phylactery) an elemental and so on.

This - to come back on topic - to support the usefulness of vorpal. I'll never ever give it to players at 2nd level. Also because at low/mid levels, it can be very nasty for monsters

You realize this is how the very first demilich was created, right? The others are only trying to recreate this level of awesome.

BadJuJu
2010-05-27, 10:07 AM
I had vorpal once, and it was kinda cool. I hit an ally in combat and one hit killed her character. I didnt like her, so it was really funny. My guy had angel wing razor. Almost started a holy war with the artifact. A fun game.

Bugbeartrap
2010-05-27, 03:29 PM
As a player, I would never buy a vorpal weapon. However, in one game I played in, I trapped a Balor in a gem, then took it back to our stronghold. After preparing we released the balor and had the monk pin him, the duskblade steal his weapons, and then the rest of the party got 100ft away before we killed him. The duskblade later used this vorpal sword to charge the terrasque turn 1: natural 20. Me: celerity, wish the terrasque dead.

Edit: So they can be fun... just not +5 fun.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-27, 03:57 PM
As a player, I would never buy a vorpal weapon. However, in one game I played in, I trapped a Balor in a gem, then took it back to our stronghold. After preparing we released the balor and had the monk pin him, the duskblade steal his weapons, and then the rest of the party got 100ft away before we killed him. The duskblade later used this vorpal sword to charge the terrasque turn 1: natural 20. Me: celerity, wish the terrasque dead.

Edit: So they can be fun... just not +5 fun.Was the monk Gargantuan sized? He would've had to be. That, or like level 43.

Why not make it a flat +20,000 gp? Way too many weapon enhancements scale way up in price when they're not that valuable to begin with.

Akal Saris
2010-05-27, 04:04 PM
I'd price vorpal as +4 personally, on par with a dancing weapon or speed. It's a pretty strong effect when it does work.

A build that would get good use out of vorpal: TWF warblade (with maybe 1 level of barbarian or just pouncing strike). At 16th, it should have 4 base attacks +4 (raging mongoose) +3 (TWF chain) +1 (Haste effect) for 12 attacks/round. That's 12 chances of auto-decapitating somebody with very little optimization effort.

A more specialized build could probably hit 15 chances with flurry-type attacks (whirling flurry barbarian, exotic weapons master, eagle claws, etc), and by using the lightning mace feat with an aptitude eagle claw to gain many more attacks (presumably without going infinite).

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-27, 04:06 PM
Frankly, I'd rather have the speed enhancement than vorpal. It has a 100% chance of working and grants an extra attack at highest BAB; added to Power Attack, it could very well lead to an additional kill anyways.

herrhauptmann
2010-05-27, 05:30 PM
Was the monk Gargantuan sized? He would've had to be. That, or like level 43.

Why not make it a flat +20,000 gp? Way too many weapon enhancements scale way up in price when they're not that valuable to begin with.

That's actually a good idea. Probably make it a little higher than that though. Might do that as a houserule, but probably 30k.
Most warriors at level 15 will have a weapon with +6 in enchantments or higher (6squared, times 2, in thousands. 72k before materials, about 33% WBL at 15), so 30k would make it impossible to add to your standard sword until you start at level 16. Assuming DM says no more than half WBL on a single item. If you do take it, you'd have only a very awesome +5 weapon (40% WBL at 15).

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-27, 05:34 PM
Frankly, I'd rather have the speed enhancement than vorpal. It has a 100% chance of working and grants an extra attack at highest BAB; added to Power Attack, it could very well lead to an additional kill anyways.

But when your wizard is casting haste on you at the beginning of combat, the other melee character, and possibly an archer, your enchantment is as wasted as enhancement bonuses (above requisite +1) are when the cleric casts greater magic weapon at the beginning of the day. I'd rather have +5 worth of energy-types.


Of course, that brings to mind another thing to consider - as much as this forum does advocate it, there are still a lot of games out there with low optimization levels, where sword-and-board fighters are still the baseline. Generally, instant-kill effects like Vorpal become more valuable the lower your game's optimization level, because it's much less likely your standard attack routine will also oneshot enemies (exceptions do exist, such as Surge of Fortune).

Sword-and-board fighters reveal their uselessness after about level 5 even to novice players. If these players run several sessions, they'll realize that with power attack in play, under the base system there's very little good reason to use a shield. ToB's Diamond Mind helps this a little, mostly with Insightful Strike.

This in no way invalidates your point, though. It's been observed that the developers in testing played 3.x the same way they played AD&D and so these things held true. The main problem with vorpal is that on the creatures on which a character is going to really want it to work, it's probably not going to because they will have to confirm the critical and many critical-confirmation abilities do not work with it.

I would definitely drop it to +4.


Assuming DM says no more than half WBL on a single item. If you do take it, you'd have only a very awesome +5 weapon (40% WBL at 15).
Assuming you're creating a character from scratch. I can see no reason (or instance) of this limitation occurring in-game except via settlement gold-limits. In my experience, when using WBL, martial characters that level-up over a campaign have higher than 50% of their wealth invested in their weapon.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-27, 05:44 PM
But when your wizard is casting haste on you at the beginning of combat, the other melee character, and possibly an archer, your enchantment is as wasted as enhancement bonuses (above requisite +1) are when the cleric casts greater magic weapon at the beginning of the day. I'd rather have +5 worth of energy-types.I don't build my characters to be dependent upon other characters to make them work. If I'm going to have haste cast on myself, I'm going to cast it on myself.

A character that needs a second character to work, is a bad character, IMO. Relying on other party members to fill their roles is all fine and good; the sneakster sneaks, the mage uses BFC, the healer is held by the sneakster and is UMD'd. If I'm going to be the fighter-man (see: warblade and crusader and psychic warrior and totemist and wildshape ranger), then I'm going to stand on my own two feet, kick ass, and take names, all by myself. Buffs should be a perk, not a requirement.

Endarire
2010-05-27, 06:07 PM
As-is, I price Vorpal at +3. I may change this to a flat gold cost considering greater magic weapon and straight +s are better so often.

Runestar
2010-05-27, 06:37 PM
Buffs should be a perk, not a requirement.

I don't think haste is a must-have, though an extra attack at your best bab every round is always welcome. Plus, if your wizard is willing to buff the party with it (it is not as if you will be the only recipient of a haste spell), why not? Save the +3 and spend the money elsewhere.

You make it sound as though it were taboo to even broach this subject with the party...:smalltongue:

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-27, 06:49 PM
I don't think haste is a must-have, though an extra attack at your best bab every round is always welcome. Plus, if your wizard is willing to buff the party with it (it is not as if you will be the only recipient of a haste spell), why not? Save the +3 and spend the money elsewhere.

You make it sound as though it were taboo to even broach this subject with the party...:smalltongue:Requiring other party members to do your thing reliably is...unreliable. If the wizard player doesn't show up, or is captured, or needs the spell slot for another spell (whether due to story constraints, or a lost spellbook, or something else), and so on, your ability to function is significantly impaired. Haste is awesome, and I'm not denying that; it's just that needing to ask for help all the time is asking for trouble.

PId6
2010-05-27, 07:03 PM
I frankly think Vorpal shouldn't exist at all. I just don't think no-save instant-kill effects should exist, much less one that just screams to be abused since it's otherwise way too expensive to care about. If you start comboing Vorpal with things like Surge of Fortune, it's broken.

Even if you use as intended, on players, it's just going to kill a few random mooks you were going to kill anyway. Very very infrequently it might kill the unlucky BBEG in an incredibly anti-climatic way. For the DM, monsters with Vorpal will find that ability useless 95% of the time and stupidly kill a PC 5% of the time, which is certainly not how I'd want my character to go. An ability like this is just so luck-based and so unnecessary that I'd much rather it never existed in the first place.

Runestar
2010-05-27, 07:20 PM
Requiring other party members to do your thing reliably is...unreliable. If the wizard player doesn't show up, or is captured, or needs the spell slot for another spell (whether due to story constraints, or a lost spellbook, or something else), and so on, your ability to function is significantly impaired. Haste is awesome, and I'm not denying that; it's just that needing to ask for help all the time is asking for trouble.

I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, just that it does not seem all that efficient.

It would be nice to be able to cover all your bases on your own merit alone, but that appears to involve a disproportionate amount of resources. To me, since casters have the comparative advantage in terms of buffs (such as mindblank virtually negating the drawbacks of a crap will save), it makes sense to have them fill in his void, freeing up your resources to improve in other areas where their spells cannot touch.

Of course, this assumes the party casters are willing and able to consistently provide buffs for every combat (which at least, is more or less true in my gaming group). I notice that at higher lvs, their lower lv spells are typically sitting around uncast anyways, so may as well supply chained nerveskitters and the like...:smallsmile:

I dunno, to me, it just seems as though this whole "cannot rely on casters" mentality seems to reek more of pride or "face-saving" rather than pragmatism. Like you want to prove that you "don't need casters to survive", whatever the cost. A little is okay (so you don't end up taxing the casters' resources too much), but carried to extremes...:smallconfused:

herrhauptmann
2010-05-27, 08:46 PM
I dunno runestar. I'm more with Lycanthro on this one.
If I and another member of hte party agree beforehand (out of character) that we would help one another: Buffs, attacking the people who are attacking me, whatever, that's one thing.

But expecting the wizard in the party to use 2 spell slots per day on me, or worst, 2 rounds at the start of combat, just so I can do my thing, is selfish. And I see this as advice far too often.
I've been the guy who at the start of each combat, had to cast a spell just so the other characters could be effective. (Dwarf warrior, with 1 level in cleric. Had to cast light so the human paladin could see what he was hitting) It sucked. I knew it was a necessity so that he didn't die, but it was still a pain having to cast a spell for other players at teh start of each fight.

Runestar
2010-05-27, 09:03 PM
I dunno runestar. I'm more with Lycanthro on this one.
If I and another member of hte party agree beforehand (out of character) that we would help one another: Buffs, attacking the people who are attacking me, whatever, that's one thing.

Which is exactly what I am advocating. Mutual agreement on what constitutes the best tactics before the game starts so you know exactly what to expect and how to approach combat and the like.


But expecting the wizard in the party to use 2 spell slots per day on me, or worst, 2 rounds at the start of combat, just so I can do my thing, is selfish. And I see this as advice far too often.
I've been the guy who at the start of each combat, had to cast a spell just so the other characters could be effective. (Dwarf warrior, with 1 level in cleric. Had to cast light so the human paladin could see what he was hitting) It sucked. I knew it was a necessity so that he didn't die, but it was still a pain having to cast a spell for other players at teh start of each fight.

I see it more as "How can the party benefit as a whole, including myself?", and I am speaking from the wizard's POV. It helps that I have been indoctrinated by Treantmonklv20's wizard GOD guide. :smallwink:

Haste benefits the entire party (though attackers benefit more than casters). With more attacks, fighters should deal more damage overall, which allows them to take down the foes faster. This should in turn result in fewer resources expended overall.

For example, the faster the foe dies, the less damage he deals, which means fewer resources spent on healing the party after the fight (which benefits the cleric). Likewise, the extra damage from haste is not necessarily inferior to the next best alternative the wizard may have been casting, such as fireball. Heck, I may not even need to spam as many damage spells because the rest of the party is able to do their job properly (or better than before).

Perhaps buffing the party/debuffing the foes/controlling the battlefield is not quite as satisfying as initiating combat by toasting the horde of orcs with a well-placed fireball, but I am fairly sure it is no less effective by any means.

Open up with a sculpted glitterdust, followed by haste, and your wizard can now sit back and twiddle his thumbs while the rest of the party mops up (or maybe spam a reserve feat). He shouldn't need to cast any more spells - the outcome is pretty much set in stone. If I were a blaster, I would likely have to follow up my fireball with scorching ray and magic missiles, necessitating a greater expenditure of resources for a similar outcome. :smallsmile:

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-27, 10:08 PM
@Lycan: I completely understand what you're saying. My point is that there are other enchantments that will be as good or nearly as good (unless you're a pouncing ubercharger in which case, yes a weapon of speed is a very good idea) that will not be made completely useless when you do get such a buff.

Luckily I play with a group who tends to make characters together and builds toward a minimal level of synergy. We don't always have someone to cast haste though.

@Runestar: I played a Batman-type wizard (in a very fun RP-heavy group) and was constantly badgered (in a good-natured way) by the other players for "never doing anything useful" in combat because of similar tactics. They eventually came to appreciate the benefit of the grease spell in a combat with nigh-infinite skeletons climbing up a set of spiraling stairs toward us (we were meant to be rescued by NPCs for the purposes of plot advancement we later learned). I'm fairly certain if grease-o-mancer had a better ring to it, they'd have begun referring to poor old Melriach by that.

Ozymandias9
2010-05-27, 10:35 PM
Sword-and-board fighters reveal their uselessness after about level 5 even to novice players. If these players run several sessions, they'll realize that with power attack in play, under the base system there's very little good reason to use a shield. ToB's Diamond Mind helps this a little, mostly with Insightful Strike.

You're assuming a fair amount of mathematical and system sophistication on the part of the players here. I know plenty of players who will never use power attack because they already fear the chance that their attacks will not hit.


But expecting the wizard in the party to use 2 spell slots per day on me, or worst, 2 rounds at the start of combat, just so I can do my thing, is selfish. And I see this as advice far too often.

It's not necessarily an expectation of the wizard casting haste: it's the possibility thereof. There is an opportunity cost to the enhancement equal to the number of hastes over the adventure you would otherwise have benefited from.

Rainbownaga
2010-05-28, 03:29 AM
Something occurred to me.

Vorpal has a 1/20 chance of insta-killing the majority of enemies.
Because of overkill and the like this is actually worse than dealing 5% of the target's life on every hit.

So until the average creature has more than 100 points of health this effect, this +5 ability does average damage of less than +5.

This is the issue I was trying to address in the OP; there's no way I'd normally give a level 2 character a weapon with a high value enchantment, but vorpal seems to scale with the character, being nearly useless at lower levels (particularly if attached to something like a scythe) but becomes more powerful as you gain more attacks and more powerful enemies.

I need to look up this 'surge of fortune ability', but I don't think it will come into play anyway.

Ingus
2010-05-28, 06:23 AM
I'm not sure decapitation would bother a lich much. Many of them have done away with their bodies anyway. :smallwink:


You realize this is how the very first demilich was created, right? The others are only trying to recreate this level of awesome.

You two, be my guests. :smallcool: This happened once and it was very funny. And...
If any of my players is reading here, don't go further

In the campaign I'm DMing, there is an effective lich-head giving good advices to another very powerful lich elf. In effect, the head lich is his uncle, decapitated by his nephews and "saved" by one of them while his floating castle were displaced in a demiplane with the rest of his body.

Sadly for me, my players managed to travel in time way before the lich-ification of both. Lots of NPC put aside or significantly less powerful.
(Don't be too sad: they'll find other heavy opposition :smallbiggrin:)

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-28, 08:26 AM
Something occurred to me.

Vorpal has a 1/20 chance of insta-killing the majority of enemies.
Because of overkill and the like this is actually worse than dealing 5% of the target's life on every hit.

This is compounded by the need to actually confirm the critical hit.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 11:24 AM
Once, when I was DMing, the PCs got a vorpal butterknife from a kobold noble. Killed the Big Bad in one turn

Mastikator
2010-05-28, 12:39 PM
Well, actually, "I decapitate you!" is harder to heal. It requires Resurrection, rather than Raise Dead.

If you want someone to stay down then you could just burn the body and scatter the ashes, now it requires true resurrection.

arguskos
2010-05-28, 12:54 PM
If you want someone to stay down then you could just burn the body and scatter the ashes, now it requires true resurrection.
No, you use the Reaping Spell metamagic to truly keep someone down. Raise and Rez auto-fail on them, and even True Rez has only a 50% chance to succeed. :smallcool:

AstralFire
2010-05-28, 12:55 PM
Thinaun weapons, anyone?

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-28, 01:15 PM
Thinaun weapons, anyone?

Dang, someone beat me to it.

Thinaun weapons are probably the surest way of keeping someone down, short of feeding them to something that makes them impossible to rez.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 01:19 PM
Dang, someone beat me to it.

Thinaun weapons are probably the surest way of keeping someone down, short of feeding them to something that makes them impossible to rez.

Vorpal Thinauan Scythe with all kinds of crit modifiers

AvatarZero
2010-05-28, 03:52 PM
I don't much like death effects, whether they're melee or spell based. But a lot has already been said about them.

If you want an effect that means that enemies are very likely to be killed by your criticals, why not retool Vorpal to be a parallel of Keen? Rather than doubling the width of a weapon's critical, Vorpal doubles the depth of them. A 19-20/x2 weapon becomes a 19-20/x3 weapon, a 20/x3 weapon becomes a 20/x5 weapon. (0.1 chance of +100% damage becomes 0.1 chance of +200% damage, 0.05 chance of +200% damage becomes 0.05 chance of +400% damage.) A scythe wouldn't be significantly less powerful than pre-existing Vorpal weapons (20/x7!).

Make it a +1 equivalent weapon property. You'd probably want to make sure that it can't be combined with other crit-enhancing effects. (+1 Blessed Keen Vorpal Falchion, 14-20/x3, auto-confirms criticals against evil creatures.)