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crazedloon
2010-05-27, 02:56 AM
Unseen seer advances precision damage at a 4/10 rate. Which class is best dipped to gain this benefit?

gorfnab
2010-05-27, 04:30 AM
Sneak Attack. Especially when combined with the spell Hunter's Eye (PHBII) which can be gained through Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning ability.

dobu
2010-05-27, 05:11 AM
The natural entry dip is rogue or spellthief, but it can be done with assassin as well

Fax Celestis
2010-05-27, 06:25 AM
Spellthief, in my opinion, with a pickup of the Master Spellthief feat.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-27, 10:20 AM
Spellthief, in my opinion, with a pickup of the Master Spellthief feat.

+1 to Master Spellthief. Admittedly, it does not work well due to the lack of a class to allow for more spell levels stored, but the ability to grab personal buffs off of the party cleric or druid is certainly worth more than the extra skills gained via a level in rogue.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 10:23 AM
+1 to Master Spellthief. Admittedly, it does not work well due to the lack of a class to allow for more spell levels stored, but the ability to grab personal buffs off of the party cleric or druid is certainly worth more than the extra skills gained via a level in rogue.

I disagree. You don't have the feat to spend on Master Spellthief and you'll have maxed UMD anyways. Besides, the Druid-buffs aren't generally personal. Cleric has a few useful ones, but you can generally manage. On the other hand, the skillpoints are stellar, especially in low-level play to cover your skillmonkeyness regardless of the poor Wizard skillpoints.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-27, 11:15 AM
I disagree. You don't have the feat to spend on Master Spellthief and you'll have maxed UMD anyways. Besides, the Druid-buffs aren't generally personal. Cleric has a few useful ones, but you can generally manage. On the other hand, the skillpoints are stellar, especially in low-level play to cover your skillmonkeyness regardless of the poor Wizard skillpoints.

You are forgetting you can steal uncast spells from your allies with a touch. Uncast spells are exempt from the targeting restriction of stealing active spells, because you cast the spell as the caster but using the robbed's CL and DCs. What's better than a clericzilla? A clericzilla with a spellthief/unseen seerzilla sidekick.

Optimystik
2010-05-27, 11:18 AM
You are forgetting you can steal uncast spells from your allies with a touch. Uncast spells are exempt from the targeting restriction of stealing active spells, because you cast the spell as the caster but using the robbed's CL and DCs. What's better than a clericzilla? A clericzilla with a spellthief/unseen seerzilla sidekick.

This. Double the casters' actions and be the skillmonkey? Sign me up.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 11:35 AM
You are forgetting you can steal uncast spells from your allies with a touch. Uncast spells are exempt from the targeting restriction of stealing active spells, because you cast the spell as the caster but using the robbed's CL and DCs. What's better than a clericzilla? A clericzilla with a spellthief/unseen seerzilla sidekick.

No, I'm aware of it. I'm just of the opinion that as a Wizard, you don't really need it, and the costs are too high. If you went straight Spellthief, sure, but you have 19-level Wizard spellcasting already so I don't see you needing most of the martial buffs Cleric offers and the few you'd want you can acquire through other means.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-27, 11:38 AM
...because you still get to be the main show? Master Spellthief, in addition to getting you the SA requirement but losing you 2 skill points, also means you don't lose any caster levels, because your CL is equal to the sum of your Spellthief levels plus your arcane spellcaster level. Depending on your DM, this may even circumvent the CL penalty for non-divination that Unseen Seers have. Plus, you get to thieve whenever you get a sneak attack with a touch/ranged touch/ray spell (which should be often, if you're running invisibility).

Meanwhile, a rogue dip gets you two more skill points, but no spellthievery and a lost CL, plus no shenanigans with the Unseen Seer CL penalties.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 11:44 AM
...because you still get to be the main show? Master Spellthief, in addition to getting you the SA requirement but losing you 2 skill points, also means you don't lose any caster levels, because your CL is equal to the sum of your Spellthief levels plus your arcane spellcaster level. Depending on your DM, this may even circumvent the CL penalty for non-divination that Unseen Seers have. Plus, you get to thieve whenever you get a sneak attack with a touch/ranged touch/ray spell (which should be often, if you're running invisibility).

Meanwhile, a rogue dip gets you two more skill points, but no spellthievery and a lost CL, plus no shenanigans with the Unseen Seer CL penalties.

Rogue gets you 8 extra skill points (first level, multiplied) and you spend the feat on Practiced Spellcaster, which unambiguously by RAW gets you full CL for non-Divinations throughout your career, while Master Spellthief costs you another feat for Practiced if you want the same benefits.

If Master Spellthief gave you full CL it'd be a probably stronger option but as it doesn't (it stacks Spellthief-levels with arcane caster levels so effectively +1 CL in Unseen Seer-builds), I find it not worth it.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-27, 11:45 AM
Wizard.

Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) for the pre-req. No lost levels, +6d6 SA damage. Spellwarp Sniper for some more.

Barring that, Scouts get a nice bonus since it progresses their damage without progressing the (less useful) AC bonus.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-27, 11:58 AM
Rogue gets you 8 extra skill points (first level, multiplied) and you spend the feat on Practiced Spellcaster, which unambiguously by RAW gets you full CL for non-Divinations throughout your career, while Master Spellthief costs you another feat for Practiced if you want the same benefits.

If Master Spellthief gave you full CL it'd be a probably stronger option but as it doesn't (it stacks Spellthief-levels with arcane caster levels so effectively +1 CL in Unseen Seer-builds), I find it not worth it.

You must not like thievery or casting in light armor for free. I know given the option between Spellthief and Rogue for entry into Unseen Seer, I'd take Spellthief every time. butthenagainiamkindofbiased

Scout is an interesting option too, since Skirmish applies to your weaponlike spells.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 12:28 PM
You must not like thievery or casting in light armor for free. I know given the option between Spellthief and Rogue for entry into Unseen Seer, I'd take Spellthief every time. butthenagainiamkindofbiased

I like:
1) Skillpoints on a skill-based character
2) Good skill list

I dislike feat tax.

That's basically what leads to me picking Rogue over Spellthief. The extra points and the skill list are amazing (for thievery, I find Rogue-base wins hands down), while casting in light armor loses meaning after level ~1 (when you're a Rogue anyways and thus wear light armor) when it becomes possible to keep Mage Armor up at relevant times (when it becomes relevant again, no ACF armors are so eminently available it doesn't really matter anymore as you don't want ACP anyways).


But yeah, I digress.

Darrin
2010-05-27, 03:07 PM
Wizard.

Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) for the pre-req. No lost levels, +6d6 SA damage. Spellwarp Sniper for some more.


At 1/2 Initiator Level, it takes a Wizard 12 levels to qualify for Assassin's Stance. Well, 10 levels, really, but the first opportunity he has to pick up Assassin's Stance with the Martial Study feat would be 12th level.

The cross-class skill requirements for Unseen Seer would also make things pretty difficult for a Wizard.