[3.5] Highest initiative?

[weenie]

Just as the title says, how high can you get your initiative modifier? Let's use all wotc sources available for this challenge, but all the methods used must be 100% legal.

[Prodan]

Improved Initiative: +4
Quick Reconnoiter: +2
Hummingbird Familiar + Elven wizard substitution level: +8
Nerveskitter: +5
+6 item of Dex: +3
Pale Green Ioun Stone: +1
Stone of Good Luck:+1

+24 before the base Dexterity score is taken into account.

Add +25 to that if Moment of Prescience adds to initiative.

Discounting infinite loops of course.

[Adumbration]

What level/books allowed?

[Koury]

Eager [weapon] of Warning is another +7.

[Ossian]

Just as the title says, how high can you get your initiative modifier? Let's use all wotc sources available for this challenge, but all the methods used must be 100% legal.

In this order:

Max out your Dex.

Gain Improved Initiative (+4)

Add levels in Scout

Add levels in Dread Commando.

With a dex of 18 (eg) you could end up with a massive +15 or something...

[Adumbration]

You should also be a halfling with a high Wis and take Yondalla's sense for wis to initiative.

[crazedloon]

its roughly 100 I did this for fun a year or so ago but for the life of me I can not find my notes

but you can add int, wis, and dex to init rather easily add in some spells for other buffs. Start adding the same stat a few times and then add in stat boosters and high stats for more fun.

of the top of my head

halfling as base race
yondalla's sense for wis to init (with the right Items can be better than elf sub level with less level dipping needed)
factotum 3 for int to dex checks (which init is)
lurk 6 give int again
improved init
Quick Reconnoiter

there with 18 in 3 stats (let assume you roll really well)
your stats end up being
20 dex
18 wis
23 int
with a belt of magnificence they are
26 dex
24 wis
29 int
with artificer manipulated Items
32 dex
30 wis
35 int

so that has an initiate of
11 + 10 + 12 + 12 + 4 +2= 51
add in
nervskitter and a scroll of Moment of Prescience (cl 25)

and you have a base line of 81 and there are plenty of other ways to raise it

[Prodan]

There's some debate as to whether MoP adds to initiative, as it only works on opposed rolls and initiative isn't explicitly defined as an opposed roll.

[Curmudgeon]

The Sign spell (Clr 1) adds +4 to your next initiative check.


Moment of Presience isn't helpful, because there's no opposed check. A lower initiative is just a number, not a failure (which is required for an opposed check), because you're allowed to Delay and pick any subsequent initiative count you want, including +200 on the next round.
Delay

By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's some debate as to whether MoP adds to initiative, as it only works on opposed rolls and initiative isn't explicitly defined as an opposed roll.

A roll compared to a set DC is not an opposed roll. A roll compared to another roll made by someone else is an opposed roll, since the two rolls are opposed to each other rather than to a set DC. There is no gray area, MoP can definitely be added to initiative. Just because you can't find "this is an opposed roll" anywhere in the initiative rules does not mean that it is not an opposed roll. If you found "this is not an opposed roll" then it wouldn't be, despite its similar mechanic, but this is not the case. To the question of "is initiative an opposed roll?" the only reasonable answer is yes, especially considering there is not a single letter of rules supporting an answer of no to that question.

[Curmudgeon]

Opposed Checks

An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. As I noted previously, failure is required for a lower check to be in opposition. There's no failure directly associated with lower initiative.

[crazedloon]

As I noted previously, failure is required for a lower check to be in opposition. There's no failure directly associated with lower initiative.

but that assumes that failure is a keyed term in DnD which it is not at least not in that context.

A hide check is an opposed roll vs your opponents spot check. However if 1 opponent spots you, you do not appear because your hide check was a "failure" allowing those who rolled too low to see you. In the same respect someone may beat your Init roll but it does not mean you go last because you failed.

[gorfnab]

The Optimized Initiative Compilation (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0)

[The Cat Goddess]

Don't forget "Quick to Act" from Swordsage.

[Octopus Jack]

If it hasn't been said already Draconic Aura- senses but that is rather pitiful compared to what's already been said

[Machiavellian]

Highest initiative possible:

Tallfellow Halfling (they count as both Elves and as Halflings)
Yondalla’s Sense - + Wis
Improved Initiative - +4
Lightning Initiative - +4
Hummingbird Familiar + Elf Wiz Sub levels - +8
Dexterity Maxed Out
Quick Reconnoiter - +2
Nerveskitter - +5
+6 item of Dex - +3
Pale Green Ioun Stone - +1
Stone of Good Luck - +1
Eager Weapon of Warning - +7
Whatever other Dirty Tricks

[Foryn Gilnith]

To the question of "is initiative an opposed roll?" the only reasonable answer is yes.

Although it's implicit in any argument that the other answers are unreasonable, explicitly stating the exclusive truth of your argument strikes me as a bit odd, given that there is quite clearly disagreement about the matter.


Tallfellow Halfling (they count as both Elves and as Halflings)
Where does it say they count as both Elves and halflings?

[demidracolich]

You guys are forgetting MoI here, bluesteel bracers.

[true_shinken]

Thug, from Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, adds an extra +2.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget Marshal with Motivate Dexterity. Belt of Battle too. And Iaijutsu Master.

[AmberVael]

Here is a thread on this topic. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0)
Has quite a bit of useful information, really.

[Jeff240sx]

Nobody has brought up Swiftblade. +CHA to Initiative...

[dextercorvia]

+Int from swiftblade if you prefer

[Aneantir]

+Int from swiftblade if you prefer

With Factotum 3 to add it again with Brains over Brawn.

[Irreverent Fool]

With Factotum 3 to add it again with Brains over Brawn.

Yup. Remember that Initiative is a Dexterity check!

[GeminiVeil]

Just to add in my 2 cents on the whole initiative is a dex check, in the PHB under check on pg 306 the first line is "check: A method of determining the result when a character attempts an action (other than an attack or a saving throw) that has a chance of failure."
As far as I know, you don't take an action by 'taking initiative.
It also says that other than ability and skill checks, there are also turning checks, caster level checks, dispel checks, and initiative checks"
(bolded is me emphasizing)
Which would imply that initiative is not an ability check.

[Koury]

Initiative Checks
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

Emphasis mine.

[GeminiVeil]

I thought the books themselves "Outranked" the SRD because it is just a referance document and they never won over the books?

(and sorry, edited earlier post #26)

[Koury]

Fine, we'll do it your way.


The initiative check in combat, for example, is essentially a Dexterity check.


INITIATIVE
Before the first round, each player makes an initiative check for his
or her character. The DM makes initiative checks for the opponents.
An initiative check is a Dexterity check (1d20+Dexterity modifier).
Characters act in order from highest initiative result to lowest, with
the check applying to all rounds of the combat.
A character is flat-footed until he or she takes an action.

[Togo]

The entry for Marshal in minatures handbook refers to initiative as a dexterity check.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I was about to say 'needs moar Swiftblade and Factotum" but I was swordsage'd.

[GeminiVeil]

Fine, we'll do it your way.

While I have to say I didn't care much for the attitude implied in that, I will agree that the seeming 'fluff' in the PHB does indeed referance it as a Dex check. I was only say that the terms in the back, which I had always figured defined the usage of words and phrases for the game, made no mention of this. I looked in several definitions in the back, and found no referance to Dex check in any of them.

[Endarire]

The Optimized Initiative Compilation (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0)

[Koury]

While I have to say I didn't care much for the attitude implied in that

I have been dealing with numerous people, irl, making me prove things I'd assumed were simple or obvious. My bad for being snappy. Snarky-ness retracted. Sorry.

[Ernir]

I don't buy into MoP qualifying as an opposed check. It's a dexterity check made by all participants in a combat, the results being tabulated and used to determine turn order.

[Dracons]

Shocked no-one mentioned Blooded from FRCG. Someone did get Thug at the very least.

Blooded gives another +2 to init.

[Lycanthromancer]

Is ∞ high enough? A psi-contingent metamorphosis into a dire tortoise means you always go first.

[strider24seven]

Actually, isn't there a psicrystal personality that gets you a bonus to initiative?

And there is the Aggressive trait from UA. You do get -1 AC, though. And you don't even get a familiar.

There's a ton of spells and powers that add to initiative if I remember correctly, including, but not limited to Nerveskitter and all the +DEX/+INT/+CHA spells.

Isn't there a monk-based PrC that adds WIS to Initiative (Shiba Protector, maybe? I'm AFB right now, so I haven't a clue)?

And the epic feat Superior Initiative if you manage to kill all of your enemies in the surprise round until you reach level 21.

[arguskos]

Is ∞ high enough? A psi-contingent metamorphosis into a dire tortoise means you always go first.
Never! ∞+1 or bust! :smalltongue:

[Lycanthromancer]

Never! ∞+1 or bust! :smalltongue:Them's deities, right thar.

[balistafreak]

Is ∞ high enough? A psi-contingent metamorphosis into a dire tortoise means you always go first.

Wait, what?

Dire tortoise? :smallconfused:

[Lycanthromancer]

Wait, what?

Dire tortoise? :smallconfused:From Sandstorm; one of a dire tortoise's Ex attacks is the ability to always go first regardless of initiative.

[true_shinken]

From Sandstorm; one of a dire tortoise's Ex attacks is the ability to always go first regardless of initiative.

I thought it was only immunity to being flat-footed.

[Hendel]

Don't forget Marshal with Motivate Dexterity. Belt of Battle too. And Iaijutsu Master.

I can't believe that we got to post #20 before someone mentioned a Belt of Battle. I never leave home without one!!

[Lycanthromancer]

I thought it was only immunity to being flat-footed.Well, Lightning Strike gives you a surprise round always, and forces everyone to be flat-footed against you.

[Grumman]

My Drow Murderer build (an Iaijutsu Master / Dread Fang of Lolth) gets a +40-something bonus to Initiative, can always act in the surprise round, and will generally get a full-round action in the surprise round by ECL 20.

[Gorbash]

Combat Readiness (Drow of the Underdark) for +6 more.

[GeminiVeil]

I have been dealing with numerous people, irl, making me prove things I'd assumed were simple or obvious. My bad for being snappy. Snarky-ness retracted. Sorry.

If it makes you feel better, I completely know how that is. Apology accepted. :smallsmile:
Plus, I did end up pretty much in agreement with you.

[strider24seven]

Never! ∞+1 or bust! :smalltongue:

But that would be pointless, as ∞+1=∞. Just nitpicking here. You would really want a divide by 0 on your initiative for ultimate cosmic power.

Also, are there ways to decrease your opponents' initiative? Something like a trap with Shivering Touch smacking your opponents before the surprise round would raise your relative initiative a few points.

[mabriss lethe]

Improved Energy Drain from Libris Mortis, is also a pretty good one.

[Caboose00]

Out of curiosity. Would the weapon abilities of Eager (+2 bonus to Initiative) and Warning (+5 Insight bonus to Initiative) stack together when wielding a weapon that has both abilities on it?

I'm asking this because I have a friend who says that they do not.

[Tytalus]

Out of curiosity. Would the weapon abilities of Eager (+2 bonus to Initiative) and Warning (+5 Insight bonus to Initiative) stack together when wielding a weapon that has both abilities on it?

I'm asking this because I have a friend who says that they do not.

Of course. One bonus is unnamed, the other is an insight bonus.

[Heliomance]

Don't forget Nerveskitter (SpC)

Pretty sure there's a Weapon of Legacy ability that does it as well.