[Any] Ways to Make Going Last Good

[Amphetryon]

As the title says. I'm looking for ideas for how to design a combat system that rewards the 'meat shield' archetype specifically for going later in a round, rather than earlier. I'm aware that other issues like survivability intertwine with this design goal, and would like to hear input on those other issues and how to address them as well.

[DracoDei]

Not sure if this helps, but I have an item for 3.X D&D (which I blatantly ripped off from 2nd Edition) which helps with that (See First Word and Final Word in my extended signature but it might take a little reading to find it), and a feat (Blocker, same place to find the link).

[lesser_minion]

As the title says. I'm looking for ideas for how to design a combat system that rewards the 'meat shield' archetype specifically for going later in a round, rather than earlier. I'm aware that other issues like survivability intertwine with this design goal, and would like to hear input on those other issues and how to address them as well.

I can understand the idea of coming up with ways to mitigate the disadvantage of rolling low for initiative, but a character should never be better off with a lower dice roll for initiative. It just makes a complete mockery of everything initiative is supposed to represent.

Voluntarily delaying to after another character, and similar initiative actions, would be a lot more reasonable, if that's what you were looking for.

In that case, some very simple possibilities would be:

-- Allow certain characters to defer their movement to an arbitrary point later in the round (like a ready action, but only consuming a move, and allowing it to be used in response to an arbitrary condition)

-- Allow characters to ready a full round's worth of actions. This is better than a delay, since you can use the ability as an interrupt.

[Amphetryon]

-- Allow certain characters to defer their movement to an arbitrary point later in the round (like a ready action, but only consuming a move, and allowing it to be used in response to an arbitrary condition)

-- Allow characters to ready a full round's worth of actions. This is better than a delay, since you can use the ability as an interrupt.

1. Thank you for the reply.
2. This is for an RPG I'm working on, not a published one.
3. As presented, neither of those options are a good idea for the character in question, and perhaps even less so for a meat shield. I'd like to discuss how to create a combat system where it actually is a good idea for the meat shields to go later, with the ability to survey the battlefield and such before moving.

[lesser_minion]

3. As presented, neither of those options are a good idea for the character in question, and perhaps even less so for a meat shield. I'd like to discuss how to create a combat system where it actually is a good idea for the meat shields to go later, with the ability to survey the battlefield and such before moving.

In both cases, they allow the meat shield to move out of turn, and block another character's movement - so they are certainly better for the meat shield than for other characters.

[Godskook]

1.Have you read Another Gaming Comic? At one point, they do a matrix-spin-off game, and there was a lot of value in going last, as you'd have more 'actions' available to attack than your opponents would have to defend with. Sure, if you ended turn with them alive, the reverse would also be true, but in such a system, going last has a distinct advantage.

2.Having now started playtesting my [Ascendant] feats(which still need a lot of work, ugh), I can say that I made initiative not really matter to him. Going first, going last, it doesn't matter. All the important stuff happens during AoOs, and for that, all I need is combat reflexes and I'm good. The key aspects to doing that(in 3.5) were significant reach(not exactly, but that's what it amounts to) and the ability to move as part of an AoO.

In either case, the over-arching concept is to move away from the 'turn-based' concept a little, or at least alter how different classes interact with it.

[Amphetryon]

The stated design intent is to make it important for casters (split between buffers and summoners, direct damage is not directly a caster shtick), sneaks, and other archetypes to go early, while making it both viable and desirable for the meat shields to go later in the round.

Therefore, initiative should still be important, but should mean different things to different classes.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Honestly, rolling poorly on Initiative or having a low Dexterity means that you're slow to react, and slow to pick up on the fight. If you want to reward meat shields going last, you should still rewards those attentive and/or fast enough to be able to act quickly, but who then assess the situation and act later.

This means giving them abilities that trigger of delaying their action, or off of readying actions to attack or intercept their opponents later in the round. This encourages them to act later, but only if they originally could have acted first.

Otherwise you run into the situation where an incredibly slow and clumsy fighter is a better meat shield than a fast, agile one...which is incorrect. If Fighter A and Fighter B are in a fight and Fighter A is quicker to assess the situation and see an opening (higher initiative), he should be in a stronger place in combat than Fighter B. If going later is advantageous, this isn't true. If, however, going sooner and choosing to delay your actions is advantageous, then the whole system works nicely.

[Lysander]

One solution is to simply give an attack roll bonus to those who go later in the round, as a result of having more time to survey their opponent and plan their strike.

Spells and sneak attacks wouldn't benefit from this bonus, so while people with higher initiative could delay their action to also get this bonus, there wouldn't be a reason to unless engaging in regular combat.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

One solution is to simply give an attack roll bonus to those who go later in the round, as a result of having more time to survey their opponent and plan their strike.

Spells and sneak attacks wouldn't benefit from this bonus, so while people with higher initiative could delay their action to also get this bonus, there wouldn't be a reason to unless engaging in regular combat.

That's the thing though...Initiative represents how quickly you assess and react to a situation, hence why you're flat-footed until you act. Giving such a bonus to those who delay their actions makes sense. Giving it to those who roll poorly doesn't.

[Lysander]

That's the thing though...Initiative represents how quickly you assess and react to a situation, hence why you're flat-footed until you act. Giving such a bonus to those who delay their actions makes sense. Giving it to those who roll poorly doesn't.

In d&d yeah. But a different system can use different logic. Call it "Haste vs Accuracy" instead of initiative and it's instantly reflavored. You'd still need to worry about game balance though, but in a different system you could design classes so this is fair.

You could also theoretically, although with difficulty, design a game without turns where everyone goes simultaneously.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

In d&d yeah. But a different system can use different logic. Call it "Haste vs Accuracy" instead of initiative and it's instantly reflavored. You'd still need to worry about game balance though, but in a different system you could design classes so this is fair.

You could also theoretically, although with difficulty, design a game without turns where everyone goes simultaneously.

True. Perhaps you can choose to add your Dexterity to your Initiative roll, or you can choose to subtract your Wisdom modifier. If you do the former, you may gain a bonus of some sort against foes with a lower initiative. If you do the latter, you may gain some bonus from being more attentive, but going later.

[Merk]

What about something like this?

Tactician's Might

In combat, your careful study of the situation lends itself to more precise and more damaging attacks.

Prerequisites: Improved Initiative
Benefit: Before rolling your initiative during combat, you may select a number no higher than your base attack bonus and gain this as a bonus to attack and damage rolls during the first round of combat, while also decreasing your initiative roll by the same roll.