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TheAz
2010-05-27, 06:57 AM
So.

A game I play on is preparing to do a leap into PF. I would like to do a bit of mechanically-sound high-level wizard-making, and I really could use your help to do it.

The reason I could use your help is the sources are severely limited and the character will be built in a slightly unorthodox fashion due to roleplaying reasons. (It's a high-charisma wizard. No, really!) See below for list of restrictions/potential issues and what I'm looking for.

The character was originally meant to be a blaster (I know, I know, wizardyness and blasting doesn't mix as well as some others, but bear with me here) - however, I'm curious to see all the options, so I welcome any and all builds in the thread.

The goal and starting point:
Mechanically, we'll look at vanilla PF Human Wizard, level 15, with the full 20 starting Int at level 1. I'm looking for feats, specialization, spell list, tactical options, possibly gear. Only optimize/mention Skills and base Ability Scores if they somehow tie into the above.

The problems/restrictions list:
-The only resource at disposal is the core Pathfinder book (release, not Alpha or Beta). This means no Spell Compendium, no Complete Arcane, no nothin' of the sort.
-An overwhelming portion of the Necromancy school is banned in the game world (it exists, but its use is highly punishable, making it an ideal banned school).
-The party changes in both number and setup session-to-session to extreme amounts. This is one of the reasons stacking piles of specialized buff spells in the preparation list isn't so convenient - not to mention the fact I don't exactly enjoy the role of the underappreciated buffbot.
-Excessively cheesy setups and tactics are not tolerated. If you were thinking 'Cleric cohort' or 'Silly Wish wordings', it won't pass. :smallwink: In fact, it's a question if a cohort of ANY kind will pass, so let's avoid relying on that as well.
-The monsters tend to be 2-4 CRs over the party level due to elevated statistics. This, amongst other things, means Spell Resistance is higher by 2-4 accordingly.

Keeping those in mind, can you still weave the usual wonders here? I'd like to see the local number crunchers' takes of wizard-building under these constraints. *pushes bowl o' numbers to the table middle*

imperialspectre
2010-05-27, 09:41 AM
Specialize Conjuration, ban Evocation and Necromancy. Boost Conjuration DCs whenever you can (there are fewer tools for it in PF, but that's fine because they didn't do anything about crap save progressions). Memorize Stinking Cloud, Web, and Glitterdust and use one of them every fight, switching off based on the enemies' weak saves. The enemies will be largely helpless and your friends can destroy them with impunity.

Basically, blasting still sucks in Pathfinder, but even worse than in 3.5 because the blasting spells that were actually good weren't reprinted. Save-or-lose, however, is still just as awesome (Glitterdust was slightly nerfed, but getting a new save every round when you need a 15 or better to save isn't that big of a nerf).

Swiftest
2010-05-27, 11:02 AM
Remember also that in Pathfinder you can still cast spells from banned schools, they just cost double the spell slots, so you can still roll around with a Contingency up or Ray of Enfeeblement that random giant or whatever. For that reason it may be better to ban Enchantment and keep Evocation, cause I bet you'll want to use more Contingencies or Walls of Force than Charm Persons or Crushing Despairs. I agree with imperialspectre that Conjuration is the way to go for a specialty. Glitterdust and Web are your best friends. In terms of other spells, most are generally the same but be aware that many save-or-die spells have been nerfed into 'save-or-take-a-lot-of-damage' spells. Some of them are still very good, but take great care to read each one.

You do have to decide whether you want an Arcane Bonded item or a familiar, but imo the choice is clear. Arcane Bond is so ridiculous, getting that one spell that you really need once per day will save your life so many times. Even if you just consider it an extra spell slot of your highest casting level it's still amazing. Just ... make damn sure you never, ever lose your arcane bonded item.

In terms of feats, the usual Spell focus Conjuration + Greater SFC combo is recommended, plus Augment Summoning (if you ever summon). Improved Initiative, Extend/Empower, and Heighten (to make those Glitterdusts and Webs more potent) are all good to take as well. I personally wouldn't worry about Spell Penetration as against monsters with good SR you can just disable them with Web/Glitterdust/Stinking Cloud and laugh maniacally as your BSF cracks their skulls. Since you're 15th level you could probably get some use out of quicken spell as well.

If you *don't* find yourself needing your swift actions every round, you could consider taking the Arcane Armor Training line of feats to wear armor while casting in, say, a Mithral Breastplate. I wouldn't recommend it though, swift actions are precious and Mage Armor is just fine.

I hope this helps! Let me know if you have more questions.

Gnaeus
2010-05-27, 11:24 AM
You do have to decide whether you want an Arcane Bonded item or a familiar, but imo the choice is clear. Arcane Bond is so ridiculous, getting that one spell that you really need once per day will save your life so many times. Even if you just consider it an extra spell slot of your highest casting level it's still amazing. Just ... make damn sure you never, ever lose your arcane bonded item.

It is only clear if you don't intend to optimize your familiar. If (for example) as a wizard you spend just one of your 6-10 skill points per level maxing your Use Magic Device, and at level 7 you take improved familiar for an Imp, Mephit, or Quasit and give your pet some wands, you have just added an entire additional caster to your party. That may well be worth more than one anyspell per day depending on what wands you give them and how well you use their special abilities (Free Commune! Yum!). A lot of parties will allow improved Familiar that wouldn't allow a cohort, and the familiar is almost as good (in some ways better).

I will agree that I would rather have a bonded item than a rat that sits in your pouch all day.

Saph
2010-05-27, 11:27 AM
Have a look at the guide in my sig. There's a run-down of the different wizard specialities and an overview of the class.

TheAz
2010-05-27, 12:04 PM
Well, thank you folks. You've been much help indeed.

Conjuration wasn't amongst my top choices due to flavor reasons, but I'm sure I can fit in flavor elsewhere - and considering just how silly the Amazing Disable Trio of spells can get if a little Heightenin' is applied, it does seem like an opportunity that shouldn't be passed up.

*tips nonexistent hat and goes to ponder wand-totting imps/mephits/quasits*

LibraryOgre
2010-05-27, 03:21 PM
Well, thank you folks. You've been much help indeed.

Conjuration wasn't amongst my top choices due to flavor reasons, but I'm sure I can fit in flavor elsewhere - and considering just how silly the Amazing Disable Trio of spells can get if a little Heightenin' is applied, it does seem like an opportunity that shouldn't be passed up.

*tips nonexistent hat and goes to ponder wand-totting imps/mephits/quasits*

One thing you might look at is the Universal school. The 1st level ability is horrible, but the 8th level ability... free uses of Sudden with any metamagic feat you have? While it doesn't sound like you'll be able to match the awesome I can pull of with that (my DM has allowed Earth Spell... meaning that I can, 1/day, increase a casting level by 1 and a DC by 2 for 1 spell), it's HELLA useful if you like metamagic.

Paul H
2010-05-28, 04:20 AM
Hi

Just don't forget that Evokers add half their level (round down) in damage to all Evocation spells.

EG CL 15 casts Magic Missile for 5D4+12 total damage. Fireball 10D6+7 etc.

In contrast Draconic Sorcerors add +1/DAm Dice for their chosen element. Plus bonus spells, abilities, etc.

Cheers
Paul H
PS Sorc 5/Dragon Disciple 10 is only CL 12, but with many other benefits.

Vallum
2010-05-30, 02:09 AM
Hi

Just don't forget that Evokers add half their level (round down) in damage to all Evocation spells.

EG CL 15 casts Magic Missile for 5D4+12 total damage. Fireball 10D6+7 etc.

In contrast Draconic Sorcerors add +1/DAm Dice for their chosen element. Plus bonus spells, abilities, etc.

Cheers
Paul H
PS Sorc 5/Dragon Disciple 10 is only CL 12, but with many other benefits.
so... you give up 9th level spells for half dragondom? would rather get my wish imo

Thats why I use it more as a launchpad for a few gish builds of mine, using bard or sorc DIP for my fighter or barbarian... I prefer paladin for synergy if I can, (but only if I'm in the right group, most groups hate pallys and aloot of groups just love being CN for some odd reason :smallfrown: ), for DD in pathfinder, (because I still love gishes)... even just a level in bard with whatever melee class you in can qualify you for DD, you get
1) sorc bloodline of dragon blood benefit up to 10 levels, giving you some spells to augment your fighting if you're a light gish
2) moderate BAB wont lead you to far behind the ballpark
3) help augment stats for low point by games ((INT bonus is still out of place imo, but +4 STR and +2 CON is always welcome))
4) if bard dip, some augment for damage and hitting with baric music, and some minor spells I never look down on, (Cure Light Wounds, grease, and SM1), sorc nets you better spells, (enlarge person, expeditious retreat, and, again, grease & SM1 are my recommendations)
5) flavor, flavor, and more flavor for RPing... it just screams awesome, becoming half dragon

Course, I still love the new arcane archer in PF
I use it even in 3.0/5 games
---------------------------
on topic: can't go wrong in summoning in PF... Its so helpful if you dont want to buff as a wizard but still want to do your job, (nothing is more helpful then making another target for your foes, and and have them attack your summon, even once, instead of the BSF is profit). It fills in a role if you need a temp rogue, (literally summon a trap monkey XD)

Paul H
2010-05-31, 09:47 PM
Hi

The Sorc/Pal thingy is what I'm toying with in the PFS campaign.

Sorc 5/Dragon Disciple 10, followed by another 5 levels of Sorc is pretty good for spells (as 17th lvl Sorc), and plenty of other benefits. Nat Armour, D12 HP/Lvl, Dragon Form II, stat increases, etc, etc.

Cheers
Paul H