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Choco
2010-05-27, 10:10 AM
So, got a Diamond Mind focused warblade with maxed out Concentration, base CON score of 18, and the Steady Concentration feat. Now all I really need are some items, abilities, whatever to give me bonuses to my concentration check, to get it as high as possible so I can always pass even taking a 10.

And while on this topic, it is generally accepted that effects that modify will/reflex/fort saves do not modify the concentration check you take in their place using the Diamond Mind maneuvers, but by that same logic do benefits not apply either? For instance if I have Evasion and I get hit with an AoE, and use a Concentration check in place of a reflex save and pass it, do I still take no damage?

So far we got:
Tunic of Steady Spellcasting - +5 Concentration (competence bonus)
Third Eye: Concentrate - +10 Concentration (competence bonus)
Expend Psionic Focus - Take 15 on the roll
Shape Soulmeld: Vitality Belt - +4 Constitution-based checks (morale bonus)
Draconic Aura: Resolve Aura - +1 Concentration, up to +4 if Dragonblood (untyped bonus)
Marshal: Motivate Constitution - +Charisma Modifier Constitution-based checks (untyped bonus)
Bard Cohort (Inspire Competence) - +2 Concentration (competence bonus)
Skill Focus (Concentration) - +3 Concentration (untyped bonus)
Aid Another - +2 Concentration (untyped bonus)
Masterwork Tools - +2 Concentration (circumstance bonus)
Hidden Talent (precognition) - +2 Concentration (insight bonus)
Strong Leg (Fiendish Graft) - +2 Constitution (inherent bonus)
Polymorph - +X Constitution
Amulet of Health - +2, +4, +6 Constitution
Pale Green Prisim Ioun Stone - +1 bonus to skills, attacks, saves, and ability checks (competence bonus)
Luckstone - +1 bonus to skills, saves, and abilities (luck bonus)
Manual of Bodily Health - +1 to +5 Constitution (inherent bonus)
Epic Skill Focus (Concentration) - +10 Concentration (untyped bonus)

Prodan
2010-05-27, 10:26 AM
Tunic of Steady Spellcasting, MiC, 2,500 gp for a +5 to Concentration.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 10:27 AM
So, got a Diamond Mind focused warblade with maxed out Concentration, base CON score of 18, and the Steady Concentration feat. Now all I really need are some items, abilities, whatever to give me bonuses to my concentration check, to get it as high as possible so I can always pass even taking a 10.

And while on this topic, it is generally accepted that effects that modify will/reflex/fort saves do not modify the concentration check you take in their place using the Diamond Mind maneuvers, but by that same logic do benefits not apply either? For instance if I have Evasion and I get hit with an AoE, and use a Concentration check in place of a reflex save and pass it, do I still take no damage?

Tunic of Steady Spellcasting [MiC] is the +5 Concentration-item. Third Eye: Concentrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#concentrate) is +10. And the maneuvers only replace the roll, not effects; Evasion and company work just fine.

Draz74
2010-05-27, 10:37 AM
Don't forget you can "take 15" on a Concentration check by expending a psionic focus.

Choco
2010-05-27, 10:37 AM
Alright, thanks guys, keep em coming!

Good call on the "replaces the roll, not the effects" thing. I can see it clearly now, effects that modify the roll itself do not apply, but effects that happen after the roll do.

Scipio
2010-05-27, 10:44 AM
Both the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting and the Third Eye: Concentrate provide competence bonuses. So (unless I am missing something) they do not stack.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 10:47 AM
Both the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting and the Third Eye: Concentrate provide competence bonuses. So (unless I am missing something) they do not stack.

You are correct. They do, however, present versions for different levels of gameplay due to monetary concerns.

Choco
2010-05-27, 10:49 AM
Being a melee character, the 3rd eye is really the only option for me (I am not sacrificing my armor...).

However, any other sources of Concentration bonuses are welcome, while we doing this may as well come up with a list.

Scipio
2010-05-27, 10:51 AM
You are correct. They do, however, present versions for different levels of gameplay due to monetary concerns.

We just use the item creation rules to create better versions of the existing items. At the point a character can afford it, he upgrades the item.

Example:
Tunic of Steady Spellcasting +5: 2,500gp
ToSS +10: 10,000 gp
ToSS +15: 22,500gp

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 10:51 AM
Being a melee character, the 3rd eye is really the only option for me (I am not sacrificing my armor...).

Torso and Body-slots are separate. You can wear armor and the Tunic just fine. Body-slot only takes Armors and Robes, so that's your limitation.

Choco
2010-05-27, 10:53 AM
oh DUH!

I am going to have to show this to my DM, we have been playing as if they are the same thing... Don't know if it is an intentional house rule or just an oversight.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 10:54 AM
We just use the item creation rules to create better versions of the existing items. At the point a character can afford it, he upgrades the item.

Example:
Tunic of Steady Spellcasting +5: 2,500gp
ToSS +10: 10,000 gp
ToSS +15: 22,500gp

Except those rules are guidelines and using them in such a manner constitutes creating custom items which are specifically something DM must make for you and as such, require him to go beg his DM to generate some handy dandy items for him, which may just as well be met with a "No." while these two present official items which do not require anything more than their existence in the world, which seems quite likely given their nature and official status, one even existing in the Magic Item Compendium.

Scipio
2010-05-27, 10:54 AM
Torso and Body-slots are separate. You can wear armor and the Tunic just fine. Body-slot only takes Armors and Robes, so that's your limitation.

According to the Crystal Keep pdf, a tunic occupies the body slot not torso.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 10:58 AM
According to the Crystal Keep pdf, a tunic occupies the body slot not torso.

That particular Tunic occupies torso slot regardless 'cause:

"TUNIC OF STEADY SPELLCASTING

Price (Item Level): 2,500 gp (7th)
Body Slot: Torso
Caster Level: 3rd
Aura: Faint; (DC 16) transmutation
Activation: —
Weight: 1 lb."

Darrin
2010-05-27, 03:19 PM
Shape Soulmeld: Vitality Belt (Magic of Incarnum p. 92). +4 morale bonus on Constitution-based checks, including Concentration (but not Fort saves).

Draconic Aura (Dragon Magic p. 16) can get you a +1 bonus with the Resolve aura, which may not seem like much but it's untyped and if you have the Dragonblood subtype it can increase up to +4 based on your class level.

Choco
2010-05-27, 03:48 PM
Wow, not nearly as many ways to boost Concentration as some other skills, like Diplomacy for example.

Let's see if we can grow the list even further

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 03:58 PM
Eh, Marshal to Motivate Constitution works always. But yeah, there's a reason why Diplomancers are so silly; you can stack synergies, get free bonuses and so on from a billion sources making epic checks in the first few levels easily doable.

herrhauptmann
2010-05-27, 05:36 PM
Wow, not nearly as many ways to boost Concentration as some other skills, like Diplomacy for example.

Let's see if we can grow the list even further

Leadership! :D
Get a bard cohort, his only usage of bardic music will be inspire competence. That's a +2 right there. Skill Focus is another. And you can take that one repeatedly.

Choco
2010-05-27, 05:53 PM
Good call on the Skill Focus. Though you can't take it more than once for the same skill unfortunately.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-27, 05:58 PM
A psicrystal could Aid Another for a +2 (and can boost this total via feats), and can add an additional +3 due to its type. You'll need a class-dip to get access to it, though. Psychic warrior may very well be worth it for access to expansion and psionic feats.

There's an item in Hyperconscious (a mask) that costs very little, and turns those cheap 1-use skill shards that grant bonuses to skill checks into continuous-use items.

Also, masterwork skill-bonus items.

Endarire
2010-05-27, 06:00 PM
Get a Masterwork Tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) for 1 pound and 50 gold.

If your DM allows you a custom item of Concentration, go for it! The retail price ("market value") is bonus * bonus * 100. For example, an item of +30 Concentration (the nonepic max) is 30 * 30 * 100 = 90,000 gold.

lsfreak
2010-05-27, 06:08 PM
A psicrystal could Aid Another for a +2 (and can boost this total via feats), and can add an additional +3 due to its type. You'll need a class-dip to get access to it, though. Psychic warrior may very well be worth it for access to expansion and psionic feats.

Really, just 'followers' works. They can all assist on the skill check, each one that gets a 10 gives you a +2 to your roll. In addition, if they have at least 5 ranks, for every additional 10 they roll above the DC10 you get an addition +1, by rules in Complete Adventurer (i.e. guy with 5+ Concentration rolls a 30, you get +4 from his Aid Another).

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-27, 06:12 PM
If you're dipping into a psionic class anyway, what about going Hidden Talent (precognition) for a +2 insight bonus to your Concentration check? Insight bonuses are hard to come by. If you went psion instead of psychic warrior, power stones of psionic moment of prescience are your friends.

Eurus
2010-05-27, 06:12 PM
Really, just 'followers' works. They can all assist on the skill check, each one that gets a 10 gives you a +2 to your roll. In addition, if they have at least 5 ranks, for every additional 10 they roll above the DC10 you get an addition +1, by rules in Complete Adventurer (i.e. guy with 5+ Concentration rolls a 30, you get +4 from his Aid Another).

Isn't that tremendously impractical? I mean, I guess you could have them all constantly readying actions, but if someone flings a Fireball your way, even if having fifty people screaming "CONCENTRATE!" at you does help your Action Before Thought maneuver somehow, most of those followers are going to end up dead. :smalltongue:

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-27, 06:13 PM
Don't forget there are damaging maneuvers you can use all of these for, as well. 4,563 damage without a damage roll? Yes sir! May I have another?

Superglucose
2010-05-27, 06:14 PM
(i.e. guy with 5+ Concentration rolls a 30, you get +4 from his Aid Another).
If a guy gets a 30 off of 1d20+5 then I want to play him :smalltongue:

herrhauptmann
2010-05-27, 06:30 PM
A psicrystal could Aid Another for a +2 (and can boost this total via feats), and can add an additional +3 due to its type. You'll need a class-dip to get access to it, though. Psychic warrior may very well be worth it for access to expansion and psionic feats.

There's an item in Hyperconscious (a mask) that costs very little, and turns those cheap 1-use skill shards that grant bonuses to skill checks into continuous-use items.

Also, masterwork skill-bonus items.

Not even sure what such an item would look like. I tend to squish players who announce "I want a MW item to add to my roll for skill X" Then when I ask what the item is, they say "The rules say I can get a MW tool for my skill"

Coulda sworn you get skill focus to stack... Dang.


Aid Another
You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.
Not sure if that really works for the concentrate skill. Plus, my bardic cohort would work better than a lot of random followers. Partly because he'd have some spells, and would have much better survivability than the 1st and 2nd level commoners.

What about familiars (I know you're not an arcane caster)? I'm sure one of them would grant you a bonus to concentration, even if the srd ones don't.

Another question. You know how a lot of later splat books offer "optional uses for skills"? Does one of those have an option to let you use a different skill in place of concentration? A skill which has much better support for item boosting.

Finally: Ring of concentration +X. Several rings and armors have been published just in the DMG to let you get bonuses to certain skills. Generally it's swimming, climbing or the like, but concentration would work just fine.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-27, 06:35 PM
Not even sure what such an item would look like. I tend to squish players who announce "I want a MW item to add to my roll for skill X" Then when I ask what the item is, they say "The rules say I can get a MW tool for my skill"A crystal that resonates psionically; it's a mundane, but its crystalline structure (deep crystal?) resonates when psionic energies are nearby. Also works fluff-wise due to him dipping into psionics (go psionic jade phoenix mage?).


Coulda sworn you get skill focus to stack... Dang.Nyet. Sorry.


Not sure if that really works for the concentrate skill. Plus, my bardic cohort would work better than a lot of random followers. Partly because he'd have some spells, and would have much better survivability than the 1st and 2nd level commoners.Dunno if it works with other creatures, but a psicrystal is a fragment of your mind, to the point where it has all of your skill ranks. A psicrystal should, if nothing else.

[edit] Also, anything that boosts your Constitution. A strong leg fiendish graft (from Fiend Folio) would help, as would the standard +2-+6 enhancement bonus granted in various ways. Being a dragonborn dwarf or dragonborn mongrelfolk would be good, as well. Of course, after level 7, you should be able to access metamorphosis and/or polymorph, which can boost your Con WAY up there (and getting a psychoactive skin of proteus is always a good idea anyway).

Hendel
2010-05-28, 12:07 AM
Have you thought of more common magic items like:

Amulet of Health +6 - +3 to Concentration (and HP, Fort save, etc)

Pale Green Prisim Ioun Stone - +1 Competence bonus to skills, attacks, saves, and ability checks (sure it won't stack with the tunic or third eye but there are other cool things you get)

Luckstone - +1 LUCK bonus to skills, saves, and abilities

Manual of Bodily Health +1 to +5 - See Amulet of Health

I am not sure what level you are playing, but if it is not Epic, then I am not sure why you need numbers this high. However, Epic Skill Focus gives you a plus 10 to the chosen skill. It appears to stack with the +3 from Skill Focus.

Plus, I had a Tome of Battle character with this and the best was the fear of never rolling a "1" and getting the crushing auto fail. Nice!

Endarire
2010-05-28, 12:22 AM
For a Masterwork Concentration Tool, I usually use a headband or stress gloves.

Hendel
2010-05-28, 12:34 AM
For a Masterwork Concentration Tool, I usually use a headband or stress gloves.

I guess the use of a masterwork tool on a skill check like Concentration would depend on the DM's understanding of the two little words "if any" in the description of masterwork tools.

"Tool, Masterwork
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any)."

Some have said that means if any skill check is associated with that particular type of skill check.

For example, a masterwork tool to help in forgeries would help, but is there something that would make sense to help you concentrate? I see it either way, but some DM's have ruled against such a use.

Choco
2010-05-28, 08:33 AM
Don't forget there are damaging maneuvers you can use all of these for, as well. 4,563 damage without a damage roll? Yes sir! May I have another?

I know, I got those lined up too, the 2nd question was just in regards to the saves because I needed to clear up how that works.


For example, a masterwork tool to help in forgeries would help, but is there something that would make sense to help you concentrate? I see it either way, but some DM's have ruled against such a use.

Quick apply/release earplugs...

The list is growing, that's good to see!

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-28, 08:52 AM
:elan: Concentrate concentrate concentrate on not getting killed! :elan:

Chen
2010-05-28, 09:07 AM
I'm playing a warblade as well and was wondering at the value of spending a lot of resources on Concentration.

Concentration will rise faster than your saves so this works out well for those maneuvers. But in terms of the damaging attack where you need to beat someone's AC with your concentration check it seems like there are much fewer bonuses to that, especially if you're playing a more low magic world (no item shops around). Without the +10 from the third eye, is it really feasible to focus on concentration? Compared to a regular melee attack I have the following:

- Your concentration skill is 3 higher than your Bab (assuming full Bab). +3
- Primary melee stat vs Con: I'm going to go with the idea that your Str is probably 4 higher than your Con unless you rolled REALLY well. -2
- Flanking. No chance to flank for your concentration check -2
- Magic weapon: Even a low magic world will have generic magic weapons at some point, at least in my experience. Depending on your level this is anywhere from -1 to -5
- Feats: Skill focus and the ToB feat to focus on a Discipline gives +5. Weapon focus only gets you +2 (with the greater one) for the same number of feats. +3 though at the cost of 2 feats. There are, however more feats available to add to your melee attack rather than your concentration.
- Buffs: I'm not really sure about this. A lot of generic buffs grant to hit (like haste) but don't grant + skills. Not really sure what this comes out to.

So looking at the above, the numbers come out to be nearly the same if you spend your 2 feats just improving concentration. The problem is all the maneuvers that require you to hit the person's AC with your concentration check also require an attack roll afterwards. Unless you're hitting on very low numbers, it seems to me like these maneuvers are almost not worth the risk unless you can get that third eye for +10. At this point the concentration check will succeed most of the time and the maneuver is then probably worthwhile to use.