How can Tarquin ignore Haley's crimes?

[Chazar]

How can General Tarquin welcome Elan, Haley, V and B as guests, after Haley unlawfully killed several of his most-likely loyal guards, who were just fulfilling their duty?

Will the guards guild cause the remaining guards to desert Tarquin for this atrocity, i.e. because he knowingly let an act of evil unpunished?

It is completely clear that Haley caused civil disorder by resisting arrest against the the authority of the realm. Outrageous that Tarquin ignores that!

[Grommen]

Cause it's funny.

Look man if you take that comix with any level of serious your gonna explode.

And she was escaping her ultimate and unlawful demise.

[Adeen]

Elan is his son, and he would probably be willing to do anything for his son, even murder people since he is evil. At least that's my opinion.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

NPCs to an evil overlord?

Yeah, tears will be shed alright.

[Mando Knight]

Several reasons.
1. She reminds him of his fifth wife, as they have similarly attractive... "eyes."
2. Potential daughter-in-law via his newly-reunited heroic son.
3. Kidnapping/arresting the girl is never a good idea, especially if you're the Evil Overlord father of the hero.
4. It was his fault she was defenestrated.

[Nimrod's Son]

What makes you think Tarquin even knows about it? He shouted down to the guards to capture her; next time he sees her she's held captive by guards. Since no one's told him otherwise, why would he assume she killed any?

[Theodoriph]

Minor point, but the killing of the guards by Haley was not criminal (I imagine you're getting your silly legal notion from Earthly examples, since we have no clue what the law of the Empire of Blood is).

You're allowed to resist an unlawful arrest even to the point of killing the guards if you're doing so in self-defense, which Haley was.


A brief wiki explanation:

In some instances, an individual may realize they are the target of false arrest and attempt to resist or flee. This is known as resisting unlawful arrest, and is a possible justification for such resistance where it would otherwise be a crime (i.e. resisting arrest, flight to avoid prosecution, assault, or even murder). Justification for such action is often hard to prove in court, and only justified in certain circumstances. Simple mistake of fact situations would generally not warrant attempting to elude law enforcement. However, there are some that would, such as:

* the person making the arrest never identifying themselves, causing the defendant to believe they are the target of kidnapping or robbery.
* the reasonable belief that the person making the arrest is an impersonator with the intent of victimizing the defendant.
* the reasonable belief that the defendant would be the victim of police brutality if taken into custody by that individual. (I would imagine being eaten by a dragon counts here :smalltongue:)

Many courts generally will not tolerate violence used in resisting an unlawful arrest, and even more rarely "deadly force," unless the police began to use violence before the defendant began to do so.

In the United States, several cases in the US Supreme Court have found that an illegal arrest is tantamount to a violent crime itself as though it were being committed by any other civilian, thereby making the right to self-defense applicable in such situations.

[Lin Bayaseda]

I think we can safely assume Tarquin ignores the killing of the guards simply because Rich told him to. And the reason Rich told him to, is because doing otherwise will lead to yet another twenty-strip tediuos trial. In other words, Rule of Funny. Or, as it may be, Rule of Not-Non-Funny.

But, by all means, do keep overanalyzing this.

[Ancalagon]

Meeting Son + Girlfriend > A few killed guards.

Simple as that, especially as Tarquin is quite probably evil. Who cries about a few broken low-level guards? Especially if you are the one who can prevent a trial with just a short word "Nah, let's not follow that, chancellor."

[Darcy]

it's the Empire of Blood, not the Empire of Job Security.

[Draconi Redfir]

What makes you think Tarquin even knows about it? He shouted down to the guards to capture her; next time he sees her she's held captive by guards. Since no one's told him otherwise, why would he assume she killed any?


^ what he said. i highly doubt Tarquin even knows anyone has died.

[TriForce]

tarquin is evil, since when do evil people let a murder or 10 stand between them and their family? unless the family is murdered ofc, unless they murdered the family...... you know, it would just be easyer to admit he needed to feed the bloodflowers down there anyway

[Tass]

^ what he said. i highly doubt Tarquin even knows anyone has died.

Not now, but he would surely find out. It is a super bureaucratic lawful empire after all.

It is going to cause him some problems, but I think he is easily powerful and feared enough to deal with those problems.

[derfenrirwolv]

Generalship is a noble title.

Noble titles are inherited.

Therefor Elan has a noble title.

Nobles can kill commoners.

The guards are commoners.

Therefore any killings done by elan or at his request are executions, not murder.



Isn't evil fun?

[Mellisan]

How can General Tarquin welcome Elan, Haley, V and B as guests, after Haley unlawfully killed several of his most-likely loyal guards, who were just fulfilling their duty?

Will the guards guild cause the remaining guards to desert Tarquin for this atrocity, i.e. because he knowingly let an act of evil unpunished?

It is completely clear that Haley caused civil disorder by resisting arrest against the the authority of the realm. Outrageous that Tarquin ignores that!

Well to argue it from an alignment perspective, the highest authority in a Lawful Evil empire is not in this case "the law" but rather the ruling authorities. So while they may have a strict set of rules for how people are to behave, as an Evil individual in authority Tarquin would not need to apply the law fairly or universally. Especially with a (usually) Chaotic Evil red dragon as empress, it's almost certainly a whatever I say goes type of government with an underlying bureaucracy to handle the day to day matters. Tarquin would only need to justify his decisions to the empress and (probably) Malack.

A strict adherence to the law without concern for the greater good or self-interest is more Lawful Neutral.

And yea, this might result in a labor dispute, but most likely it's covered in the guards' contracts ("employer is not liable for act of protagonist") or could be settled with a cash payment. It seems unlikely you'd have a demand for justice that transcended selfish interests. They wouldn't be concerned with punishment as much as compensation.

[Leecros]

Simple explanation: They weren't important enough for him to care. If it was say...Malack who died then yeah, i'd imagine there'd be a pretty big confrontation.


Simple Explanation 2: He was blinded by her magnificent set of perky round...eyes

[Mewtarthio]

* the person making the arrest never identifying themselves, causing the defendant to believe they are the target of kidnapping or robbery.
* the reasonable belief that the person making the arrest is an impersonator with the intent of victimizing the defendant.
* the reasonable belief that the defendant would be the victim of police brutality if taken into custody by that individual. (I would imagine being eaten by a dragon counts here :smalltongue:)

None of those apply. Being eaten by a dragon isn't police brutality: In the Empire of Blood, it's an accepted means of legal execution*.

*Though, I must admit, it is a little...

...draconian! :tongue:

[Leecros]

None of those apply. Being eaten by a dragon isn't police brutality: In the Empire of Blood, it's an accepted means of legal execution*.

*Though, I must admit, it is a little...

...draconian! :tongue:

a small part of me just died...way to go.

[denthor]

If she could defeat all of them she must be equal or better than all of them combined they were to weak to survive.

The LAW OF SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST applies in this case.


Besides Haley needed the experience.

[Mordae]

Under an evil overlord, guards who cannot manage to successfully restrain a prisoner didn't deserve to be guards anyway. Their service records will probably indicate that they were dismissed that morning for incompetence.

[Theodoriph]

None of those apply. Being eaten by a dragon isn't police brutality: In the Empire of Blood, it's an accepted means of legal execution*.

*Though, I must admit, it is a little...

...draconian! :tongue:

If I really had to explain how an innocent person being fed to a dragon by the police constitutes police brutality....well...I`d be banned :P So instead I`m just going to wander back to playing Warband.

[SPoD]

If they had been good enough to deserve to live, they would have beaten her. Survival of the fittest. Tarquin likely appreciates the opportunity to clear out the soldiers weak enough to be killed by a single-classed rogue wielding an unfamiliar weapon in toe-to-toe melee combat.

[hamishspence]

If I really had to explain how an innocent person being fed to a dragon by the police constitutes police brutality....well...I`d be banned :P So instead I`m just going to wander back to playing Warband.

Thing is, Malack isn't the police- he's a senior government official. and it's Malack that would have fed them to the dragon:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html

Possibly, he might be the judge as well.

Still, "police brutality" doesn't fit as well as "draconian :smallbiggrin: justice system"

[Dr.Epic]

A) They can be resurrected.

B) Elan is his son.

C) Who said he's forgiven her? He could be a villain and lulling them into a false sense of security.

[Hendel]

How can General Tarquin welcome Elan, Haley, V and B as guests, after Haley unlawfully killed several of his most-likely loyal guards, who were just fulfilling their duty?

Will the guards guild cause the remaining guards to desert Tarquin for this atrocity, i.e. because he knowingly let an act of evil unpunished?

It is completely clear that Haley caused civil disorder by resisting arrest against the the authority of the realm. Outrageous that Tarquin ignores that!

I think the reasons given are good enough, because it helps the plot for her not to be in jail or on trial again and because he thinks she is hot and his son, with whom he was just reunited, is in to her as well.

Besides, being lawful doesn't mean you let every law guide your every action. It seems that most rulers are "lawful" to some extent, but they tend to not let the laws govern their actions, just the actions of the masses. If the laws applied equally to the rulers, then where would the fun in ruling be?

Plus, we are not sure to what extent he has been informed about the slaughter and if, as mentioned, they are just low level guards or mercenaries, then something like this can be brushed under the carpet with a few legal procedures.

The added benefit is that the bodies can be fed to the Empress!!

[sihnfahl]

If they had been good enough to deserve to live, they would have beaten her.
However, if they were good enough to beat her, they would be more than mere generic guards.

Their contracts probably have clauses that cover Act of Adventurer.

[Bongos]

He's probably just going to bill her for the expense of raising them from the dead.

[Wardog]

As the great Terry Pratchet said:

They may be called the Palace Guard, the City Guard, or the Patrol. Whatever the name, their purpose in any work of heroic fantasy is identical: it is, round about Chapter Three (or ten minutes into the film) to rush into the room, attack the hero one at a time, and be slaughtered. No one ever asks them if they want to.

This book is dedicated to those fine men.

[sihnfahl]

He's probably just going to bill her for the expense of raising them from the dead.
Why would he want to raise them from the dead?

Mook Guards are dime a dozen.

[NerfTW]

How can General Tarquin welcome Elan, Haley, V and B as guests, after Haley unlawfully killed several of his most-likely loyal guards, who were just fulfilling their duty?

Will the guards guild cause the remaining guards to desert Tarquin for this atrocity, i.e. because he knowingly let an act of evil unpunished?

It is completely clear that Haley caused civil disorder by resisting arrest against the the authority of the realm. Outrageous that Tarquin ignores that!

Because he's evil. :smallconfused:

Also, why are you assuming murder is even a crime? Lawful doesn't mean slavishly obeying every rule. It just means you follow a personal code. Granting someone a pardon for killing low level mooks is perfectly reasonable. Especially since he has a flair for drama and KNOWS the low level guards can't possibly take out the protagonist.

[The Pilgrim]

Let's see...

Tarquin is a mercenary.

His soldiers, are problably mercenary, too.

So Tarquin's only problem here, is a decrease in soldier monthly wages equal to five units.

If they were unable to stop a rogue in melee who uses also a weapon she has no proficency in, it's that they were not that valuable after all, and easly replaceable.

[LtNOWIS]

Generalship is a noble title.

Uh, no it isn't...

General just means he's in charge of an army or other armed force. It describes his position within the organization.

[RMcMurtry]

Probably doesn't particularly value their lives.

[Dalek Kommander]

Lawful good people staunchly defend the rule of law because they see it as the best way to serve the greater good, and they will not abuse their power of their office for their own gain because that would be "missing the point".

Lawful evil people staunchly defend the rule of law because they see it as the best way to... abuse the power of their office for their own gain, at the expense of the greater good. Anything else would be MISSING THE POINT!

[Darakonis]

Although Tarquin probably doesn't regard murder to be as serious a crime as a Good-aligned person would (well, a Good-aligned person who isn't an adventurer), I'd still expect him to be at least mildly upset about his men being killed.

As Nimrod's Son said, he likely isn't aware of the fact that they are dead. We don't know how he'll react if/when he finds out.

Regarding the arguments that essentially state that Haley did Tarquin a favor by culling the weak from his soldiers' ranks...

First, we must remember that Tarquin is lawful, and follows strict procedure, as has been evidenced in-comic. "Decommissioning" a soldier, even through execution, would likely follow just as strict a procedure as everything else we've seen in the Empire of Blood.

Second, if Tarquin had to hold every one of his soldiers to the standard of "How do they fare against a mid-to-high-level adventurer?" then he'd have to "decommission" most of his army, I'd suspect. Most threats in the world can be handled by low-level mooks, and a huge number of low-level mooks are generally the best at dealing with a huge number of low-level threats. Four level 15 adventurers can't fight off an army of a thousand level 1 commoners (law of averages states that ~50 commoners would roll a 20 in the first round).

The guards may have been excellent at dealing with anything with a CR under 5. The fact that Stephen Hawking can't solve the Theory of Everything doesn't make him bad at what he does.

And level 15 guards aren't born. They're bred. (At least, in the OotS-verse...)

Peace,
-Darakonis

[The MunchKING]

Four level 15 adventurers can't fight off an army of a thousand level 1 commoners (law of averages states that ~50 commoners would roll a 20 in the first round).

But those thousand commoners would be nowhere near the 4 PCs at the time.

At best you could get maybe 32 commoners in combat at one time.

[Darakonis]

But those thousand commoners would be nowhere near the 4 PCs at the time.

At best you could get maybe 32 commoners in combat at one time.

They're using bows :)

It's just an example. The point is, a handful of powerful characters (typically) can't survive an overwhelming force of weaklings.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Ancalagon]

They're using bows :)

So what? Then the fighting happens in the shadow...

[sihnfahl]

It's just an example. The point is, a handful of powerful characters (typically) can't survive an overwhelming force of weaklings.
That would depend on the locale and the preparedness of the characters in question, wouldn't it?

[Ancalagon]

In D&D it also makes a huge difference if the powerful chars are casters or not.
A fighter might be as strong as he can be... sooner or later will enough people roll 20s.

But improved invisibility, fly, shield, and some other "not too high spells" and then some damage-output can greatly even the odds.

Sure, a sorcerer might only have five fireballs. But with that, you can kill quite a lot lowbies.

And stone shape can create some very suited defenses for your buddies. Casters make the difference.

Also, high level characters who know they will get into something have very vast ressources if they pour them in "just potions". Five dozen Poitions of healing + a decent fortification and some buffs get you pretty far.

[The Succubus]

They're using bows :)

It's just an example. The point is, a handful of powerful characters (typically) can't survive an overwhelming force of weaklings.

Peace,
-Darakonis

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html

[Ancalagon]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html

Even more, all main characters but one did survive the "horde of weaklings". And the one who died did not die to the weaklings.

"can't" is a big word.

[slayerx]

Even more, all main characters but one did survive the "horde of weaklings". And the one who died did not die to the weaklings.

"can't" is a big word.

Well they only survive because they ran away
And really i think it's was well enough implied that the intention of the previous post was to point out that a small group of high levels would loose to a huge pack of low levels (in a even more previous post he said "fight off" not just "survive")... the size of which increases as the level difference grows

Yes Balkar killed a bunch of hobgoblins, but he did need to make use of a healing potion, which tells you that the small amount of damage they can deal adds up... Frankly, O'Chul said it best that a high level fighter could indeed loose if the hoard of low levels was large enough

[Chazar]

Thanks to everyone who made a funny reply! There were many hilarious ones! :smallbiggrin: Totally worth posting my question!
(The :smallwink: smiley in the title headline of my opening post apparently did not get through to everyone. :smalltongue:)

I would like to add that despite the obvious plot/dramatic/story-telling reasons, Hinjo et al. did get upset by Belkar killing guards during his escape, which was quite a similar scene. Of course, Belkar's killings justified the plot device "mark-of-justice", whereas Haley killing guards was just a cheap joke. Nevertheless, I believe this is one of many obvious clues that answers the questions pondered in other threads whether or not Tarquin is evil, sparked just because he cares about Elan. Evil characters can be emotional and caring. Think of the black dragon avenging her young.

I must add that Darakonis post above really makes me consider the initial question more seriously now. I still believe that the killing of the guards will not be mentioned in the comic again (unless Belkar can make a sour pun if he is ever told the full story), but that does not mean we cannot have fun wondering about it - and how one would resolve such a situation in a real D&D round at the table.

[veti]

The traditional attitude of somewhere like the Empire of Blood is that guards are well paid and enjoy a good social position, but the flip side is that it's understood that theirs is a high-risk job. If and when they get killed, it won't be considered a high-priority issue.

"Rebelling or waging war against the Empire" - now that's a crime. "Killing guards" is more like a hobby.

[Aron Times]

None of those apply. Being eaten by a dragon isn't police brutality: In the Empire of Blood, it's an accepted means of legal execution*.

*Though, I must admit, it is a little...

...draconian! :tongue:

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!! :smallcool:

[Aldrakan]

Generalship is a noble title.


Uh... what? He's the commander of their army, most people don't make that a hereditary title in case you end up with someone with a grasp of strategy like... well Elan's, in charge.
He's a general because he's got a lot of military experience so people want him to lead their troops, it has nothing to do with nobility.

[Voice of Reason]

Uh... what? He's the commander of their army, most people don't make that a hereditary title in case you end up with someone with a grasp of strategy like... well Elan's, in charge.
He's a general because he's got a lot of military experience so people want him to lead their troops, it has nothing to do with nobility.

I believe (and keep in mind that this is just conjecture) that the idea behind the comment was that the noble title was inherited, not the position of general. I believe the poster was assuming that when one becomes a general, one becomes, almost by default, a member of the nobility. General is not the same thing as nobility; in this case, one would grant the other. I believe the intent was to say that Elan was a noble (I.E., part of the upper class) in virtue of his father's position, not that he would one day inherit the generalship.

[Deliverance]

I believe (and keep in mind that this is just conjecture) that the idea behind the comment was that the noble title was inherited, not the position of general. I believe the poster was assuming that when one becomes a general, one becomes, almost by default, a member of the nobility.

I cannot immediately think of any society that has worked that way.

Societies where only the nobility can be granted command, yes, plenty of those, but societies where one is ennobled as a result of being made a general - no. (If you can think of any, please tell me - I am always ready to fill my pits of ignorance with knowledge)

The closest I can think of would be societies where a person showing great promise, ability, and having the right patrons would be ennobled when he reached the highest position a commoner could aspire to in order to allow him to advance even further as a member of the nobility - but we have no reason to believe that the Empire of Blood work on this principle and this doesn't seem to match what the person you quoted were writing anyhow.

It is a common thing in fiction (because the "rises through the ranks to the very top of military command and is coopted by the nobility" makes for a very romantic storyline and because most US and UK writers base their idea of generic medieval times on 14th-17th century Britain or rather on the 19th-20th century novels romantication of that period) but outside fiction I don't recall hearing about it except as the very rare exception.

[Mastikator]

NPCs to an evil overlord?

Yeah, tears will be shed alright.

This.

Also it's common for evil overlords to pardon the PC's if he wants them to live (in order to persuade them to his side).

[Leecros]

Also it's common for evil overlords to pardon the PC's if he wants them to live (in order to persuade them to his side).
that also opens up more Star Wars references for both Tarquin and Elan.:smalleek:

[Swordpriest]

Well, if she just walked in and started killing his guards, he'd probably have something to say about it.

However, it was a combat situation, and it seems likely that even a Lawful Evil character is going to realize that old but true statement --

"The laws are silent in the midst of arms."

[magic9mushroom]

How can General Tarquin welcome Elan, Haley, V and B as guests, after Haley unlawfully killed several of his most-likely loyal guards, who were just fulfilling their duty?

Will the guards guild cause the remaining guards to desert Tarquin for this atrocity, i.e. because he knowingly let an act of evil unpunished?

It is completely clear that Haley caused civil disorder by resisting arrest against the the authority of the realm. Outrageous that Tarquin ignores that!

He's Lawful Evil, and she's his son's girlfriend. You expect an obviously LE government to be free of corruption? :smallwink:

[Leecros]

He's Lawful Evil, and she's his son's girlfriend. You expect an obviously LE government to be free of corruption? :smallwink:
hmm...would that be considered corruption? i could see a Lawful Good person sticking his/her neck out for kin also. Especially under the pretense that it was a combat situation and she was defending herself. I say defense because he never orders them to attack her, which means that they most likely saw an escaping prisoner and automatically engaged.

[magic9mushroom]

hmm...would that be considered corruption? i could see a Lawful Good person sticking his/her neck out for kin also. Especially under the pretense that it was a combat situation and she was defending herself. I say defense because he never orders them to attack her, which means that they most likely saw an escaping prisoner and automatically engaged.

If it's because she's his girlfriend, then yes, it's certainly corruption, no matter who does it. Not sure whether "nepotism" is the right word, but it's certainly close.

[Voyager_I]

She was facing wrongful execution, and going by Tarquin's comments the guards were aiming to kill rather than capture. If that's not a legitimate justification for resisting arrest with lethal force, I don't know what is.

[rewinn]

We do not know for a fact that the Empire of Blood criminalizes homicide.

It might; homicide is one of the most universally-recognized crimes (in realityverse anyway). But there are so many variations ... it may well be that EoB has a weregeld system, in which homicide requires the payment of money to the survivors and then you're clear. After all, it's a part of the world in which regime change is not by peaceful election but by bloodily overthrowing the previous authorities; it may be lawful but it's not bloodless.

In some places, Law is about keeping the peace more than justice, and what is more peaceful than a pile of dead guards?

[Leecros]

In some places, Law is about keeping the peace more than justice, and what is more peaceful than a pile of dead guards?

a pile of UNdead guards?

[ChowGuy]

How can General Tarquin welcome Elan, Haley, V and B as guests, after Haley unlawfully killed several of his most-likely loyal guards, who were just fulfilling their duty?

No one is killing anyone. I gave my word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0723.html)."

It's called a pardon, or in this case amnesty (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amnesty), offered in exchange for the party's peaceful surrender, and governments do it all the time. Lawful governments even abide by them.

[Fishman]

I somehow doubt that a Lawful Evil commander is all THAT concerned about the lives of some mook guards. Lawful Evil types are typically more concerned about how something affects the bottom line than how it affects peoples' lives.

[hamishspence]

Hank Scorpio in the Simpsons seemed to combine Card Carrying Villainy with an exceptional level of concern for the wellbeing of his employees.

It's possible that Tarquin has read the Evil Overlord List (or a fascimile of it) and knows that loyalty in followers is best inculated by real concern for them.

[Luzahn]

Hank Scorpio in the Simpsons seemed to combine Card Carrying Villainy with an exceptional level of concern for the wellbeing of his employees.

It's possible that Tarquin has read the Evil Overlord List (or a fascimile of it) and knows that loyalty in followers is best inculated by real concern for them.

Or at least feigned concern, coupled with actions they approve of. Comes down to the same thing.

[Darakonis]

Hank Scorpio in the Simpsons seemed to combine Card Carrying Villainy with an exceptional level of concern for the wellbeing of his employees.

It's possible that Tarquin has read the Evil Overlord List (or a fascimile of it) and knows that loyalty in followers is best inculated by real concern for them.

Homer: Yes Mr. Scorpion.
Hank: Don't call me Mr. Scorpion. It's Mr. Scorpio. But don't call me that either. Call me Hank!

Great Simpsons' reference, great point. +1 internet

Peace,
-Darakonis

[KoboldRevenge]

It's a evil country, he could be any alinement so he could have just ignored the fact that Haley defended herself against people trying to kill her.

[Eloi]

What do you think Evil!Tarquin usually feeds to the Empress? Probably the same exact guards would have been eaten anyway.