PDA

View Full Version : More tier please!



Theodoxus
2010-05-27, 02:47 PM
I was looking at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138233&page=2) and didn't want resurrect it...

I noticed both it and the original tier thread on BG didn't cover the following classes, and according to the list on Wizards, this would complete the set:
Dragon shaman (PH2)
Dragonfire Adept (DM)
Mystic (DCS)
Psionic Artificer (MoE)
Shadowcaster (TM)
Shaman (OA)
Shugenja (CD)
Sohei (OA)
Spirit Shaman (CD)
Wilder (XPH)
Wu Jen (CAr)

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks! Still need thoughts for these last three though...

DragoonWraith
2010-05-27, 02:48 PM
Try this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119814).

Cog
2010-05-27, 11:08 PM
Psionic Artificer (MoE)
When specific variants aren't listed, it generally means they're at the same place as the original.

arguskos
2010-05-27, 11:12 PM
The Shadowcaster is generally acknowledged to be in the Tier 4 range, give or take, based on its lack of general stamina.

The Mystic appears to be a Favored Soul with a single Domain and no class features, so, let's call it Tier 2 as well.

Starscream
2010-05-28, 12:52 AM
While we're on the topic, does anyone know the tiers of the Dragon Compendium classes?

arguskos
2010-05-28, 01:11 AM
While we're on the topic, does anyone know the tiers of the Dragon Compendium classes?
I've had that convo as well. In order, the generally agreed upon Tiers from the last time I saw that come up was as follows:
Battle Dancer: Tier 4 (monk+, but that's not saying much)
Death Master: Tier 3, same reason as Dread Necromancer
Jester: Tier 3, same as Bard.
Mountebank: Tier 5, because it's craptastic beyond words almost.
Savant: Sadly, Tier 4-5, simply because it's not very good at being a jack-of-all-trades.
Sha'ir: There was no solid consensus on this one. I was thinking it'd be Tier 3-4, just because the spell recovery mechanic is such a bitch.
Urban Druid: Tier 1 probably, maybe Tier 2, since animated objects =/= dinosaurs and other such stuff.

PId6
2010-05-28, 02:04 AM
While we're on the topic, does anyone know the tiers of the Dragon Compendium classes?
Battle Dancer I'd put at mid-ish Tier 5. It's better than monk, but not much better, and still lags behind optimized fighters and paladins.

Death Master is basically a core-ish wizard with a weaker list and an "animal" companion. It's still a pretty large list though, with a few very nice spells on there, and he can theoretically learn all of them, so probably low Tier 1.

Jester is like a bard without nearly as much splatbook support. I was going to say Tier 4, until I saw Polymorph on their spell list. Tier 3.

The Mountebank tries to be a rogue replacement and fails at it. Its skill list is pretty good and it has UMD, but Deceptive Attack sucks and most of its tricks are pretty bad. Still, it has a few decent SLAs (like Alter Self). Low to mid Tier 5. (And the capstone is as messed up as Risen Martyr's!)

The Savant is a primitive Factotum. It's a lot worse than Factotum, but it still has a few things going for it. Having all skills as class skills is pretty nice, so it can easily foray into a class like Chameleon, and it has access to some of the same tricks that Factotums have (Iaijutsu Focus, for one), as well as something that even Factotum can't do (Skill Assistance). I'd go with Tier 4 on this one, but you can argue Tier 5.

Sha'ir is hard to classify. It has the potential to be incredibly powerful at later levels due to being able to "prepare" spells from the entire arcane/divine lists, but has a very complex and difficult mechanic that I would not want to play through at lower levels. There's also the constant looming threat of infinite Wishes from its ability to call genies, but we'll ignore that. Potentially very high Tier 1, but is difficult enough to actually play that even StP Erudite compares favorably in that regard.

Urban Druid is exactly what it sounds like, with the same triple threat that classic druids entail. Weaker than regular druid due to loss of splatbook support but still solidly Tier 1.

So yeah, most of these classes are as powerful as the classes they are based off of, with the same problems and pitfalls thereof.

Ingus
2010-05-28, 06:30 AM
Try from this http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138013
and go to Tier system for classes link (OT: ho i can put a link in a word? Ever guessed).

Psi Artificer is listed to tier 0 if there is one. To good reasons too.

Amphetryon
2010-05-28, 06:50 AM
Psionic Artificer is broken-good, and therefore Tier 0 on the JaronK scale, Tier 1 on the ToS scale.

Mountebank might be low Tier 4 just because of Alter Self, which can be very good in the hands of a smart player. It's highly situational, though.

Rake
2010-05-28, 06:52 AM
Tires don exits.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 07:00 AM
(OT: ho i can put a link in a word? Ever guessed).[ URL=www.urlhere.com ]Thelink[ /URL ]

Innis Cabal
2010-05-28, 07:13 AM
Tires don exits.

Preach it.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-28, 08:17 AM
Out of curiosity have either of you actually read the origional tier threads rather than just just seeing other threads where someone mentions tiers while contrasting build options. I understand that it could be very irksome seeing that repeatedly especially when the poster doesn't back up their argument in the thread their posting in but, tiers most definatly exist. They are a metagame concept supported playtesting, pointless duals and thorough analysis of both theoretical and realistic possibilities. Perhaps they shouldn't exist but they do largely because the actual creators of the d20 system didn't understand the material they were creating as well as the communities of this and other gaming sites.

Amphetryon
2010-05-28, 08:19 AM
Sometimes tires do don exits, however. Take a sharp turn too fast, and BAM! Your tire has donned an exit. :smallwink:

Greenish
2010-05-28, 08:25 AM
Out of curiosity have either of you actually read the origional tier threads rather than just just seeing other threads where someone mentions tiers while contrasting build options. I understand that it could be very irksome seeing that repeatedly especially when the poster doesn't back up their argument in the thread their posting in but, tiers most definatly exist. They are a metagame concept supported playtesting, pointless duals and thorough analysis of both theoretical and realistic possibilities. Perhaps they shouldn't exist but they do largely because the actual creators of the d20 system didn't understand the material they were creating as well as the communities of this and other gaming sites.Tires don exits (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tires_don_exits)! :smallamused:

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-28, 08:28 AM
Sometimes tires do don exits, however. Take a sharp turn too fast, and BAM! Your tire has donned an exit. :smallwink:Preach it, baby!

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-28, 08:32 AM
Ah, I thought the phrase was some kind of joke, but didn't realize that it was actually poking fun at people that disagree with the tier system.

SlyGuyMcFly
2010-05-28, 08:43 AM
Tires don exits (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tires_don_exits)! :smallamused:

I here I was thinking that this was some obscure latin quote...

Draz74
2010-05-28, 10:48 AM
I here I was thinking that this was some obscure latin quote...

I still hope it is. :smallamused: