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View Full Version : Is this build even worth the time and loss of CL?



Os1ris09
2010-05-27, 03:49 PM
I am playing the following character:

Illumian
Warlock 1/Cleric 4
sigils: One that add's +1 CL per sigil stone and the INT based one for checks
Feats:
Enhanced Sigil (for +3 CL)
Extend Spell (getting ready for Persist and DMM)

What I want to know is it worth taking the PrC Ordained Champion for this build to add some "front line firepower" to the character OR just stay with the Eldritch Disciple till around 8th lvl and bail out into regular cleric again?

Renchard
2010-05-27, 04:00 PM
Are you glaivelocking with this build?

Jair Barik
2010-05-27, 04:01 PM
If being a cleric who draws power through some sort of demonic force is your character concept then sure it would be worth making a cleric warlock.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-27, 04:27 PM
Eldritch Disciple is the obvious choice here, and it looks particularly good if you're CG aligned. Get Corrupting Blast, Healing Blast, Protective Aura, and probably Wild Frenzy, and keep in mind that it's a swift action to activate those. After that maybe take Contemplative and/or Divine Oracle 4, and be sure to pick up Eldritch Glaive and Power Attack if you don't already have them.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-27, 04:30 PM
If being a cleric who draws power through some sort of demonic Fey force is your character concept then sure it would be worth making a cleric warlock.

Fixed that for you.:smallbiggrin:

Or, y'know, he could just have power from two places. His heritage/bloodline from which he inherits warlockness, and the god that he's sworn to.

Os1ris09
2010-05-27, 05:45 PM
I don't know what the glaive lock thing is but in general to all the above yes. I like the character concept as far as roleplaying. I AM to go into Eldritch Disciple and stick around for maybe 8 lvls or so but I wanted to get some BAB and combat abilities into play before I get into the 16/17 lvl range.

Il_Vec
2010-05-27, 06:11 PM
Did you check the Hellfire Warlock prestige class on Fiendish Codex 2?

Tip: There are easy and cheap ways to heal ability damage.

nedz
2010-05-27, 06:28 PM
Glaivelock is a term to describe warlock melle builds based on the Eldritch Glaive Lest Invokation.
Eldritch Glaive creates a melle weapon with reach from your eldritch power. It makes touch attacks and you get iterative attacks.
Eldritch Glaive is from the Dragon book (whatever its called)

Edit:
Dragon Magic p82 and its always a full round action to use

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 07:13 PM
Don't forget that the Planning Domain gives you the Extend Spell Feat.

And the Spell Domain for "Anyspell" and "Greater Anyspell" spells.

PId6
2010-05-27, 07:29 PM
I don't know what the glaive lock thing is but in general to all the above yes. I like the character concept as far as roleplaying. I AM to go into Eldritch Disciple and stick around for maybe 8 lvls or so but I wanted to get some BAB and combat abilities into play before I get into the 16/17 lvl range.
You don't need BAB when you've Divine Power and DMM: Persist. Eldritch Glaive gives you more than enough combat abilities, letting you make full touch attacks with reach and extra damage. I'd recommend going fully into Eldritch Disciple and finishing up in either Legacy Champion or cleric PrCs if you're lactose intolerant.

Oh, and Planning + Undeath is the standard DMM entry package (Extend Spell + Extra Turning).

Os1ris09
2010-05-27, 10:41 PM
@ Nedz: Ok that is the glaive lock. I knew about that invocation but didn't know there was a lock tactic with it involved.

@ Il_Vec: I do not have the Fiendish Codex II so you might want to help me out here. Whats good about that PrC?

@ The Cat Goddess: I forgot about those Domains. What good Deity gives those Two domains as its choices? Right now I have the Travel and Luck Domain with the Luck Domain given up to spontaneously cast Restoration Spells.

@ PId6: Where is Legacy Champion? Also I don't know of a single Deity that gives those two Domains TOGETHER as there domain choices. OTHERWISE I would have gone with that choice regardless of Alignment. :smallbiggrin:

PId6
2010-05-27, 10:59 PM
@ Il_Vec: I do not have the Fiendish Codex II so you might want to help me out here. Whats good about that PrC?
It's a 3 level PrC that fully advances warlock invocations and EB. In addition, every level you gain 2d6 more damage for your EB (for a total of 6d6), but each time you use it, you deal yourself 1 Con damage. This can be mitigated either by either binding Naberius (ToM) to heal it away or by shaping Strongheart Vest (MoI) to give yourself effectively DR 1 for ability damage.

It's most awesome when used with Legacy Champion since then you get to gain more than 6d6 worth of damage by expanding Hellfire Warlock beyond 3 levels (how's at will 30d6 Eldritch Blast sound?).


@ PId6: Where is Legacy Champion?
Legacy Champion is in Weapons of Legacy. It advances the class features of any class, so you can use it to advance the progression of Eldritch Disciple beyond 10 levels.


Also I don't know of a single Deity that gives those two Domains TOGETHER as there domain choices. OTHERWISE I would have gone with that choice regardless of Alignment. :smallbiggrin:
You can just worship a cause or ideal and pick whatever domains you choose. I think the ideal of "Lichdom" would be well suited to the two domains, for example.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 11:07 PM
Domains available per Deity depend on your Setting.

If you become a "Cleric of an Ideal" rather than of a Deity, you can simply pick whatever Domains you want.

Legacy Champion is in the book "Weapons of Legacy".

Hellfire Warlock is a 3 level PrC that gives the option of adding 2d6 Hellfire damage per level (+6d6 at level 3) to your Eldritch Blast. Doing so causes you to take Con damage, however... I think only 1 point. It also allows you to infuse Wands & Staffs with extra power, but I don't recall the effect off the top of my head.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 03:19 AM
Ok I will probably do the Hellfire Warlock IF AND ONLY IF you can heal the ability damage with lesser restoration.

Lesser Restoration per Players Handbook:

Lesser restoration dispels any magical effects
reducing one of the subject’s ability scores
(such as ray of enfeeblement) or cures 1d4
points of temporary ability damage to one
of the subject’s ability scores (such as from
a shadow’s touch or from poison). It also
eliminates any fatigue suffered by the
character, and improves an exhausted
condition to fatigued. It does not restore
permanent ability drain.

Also as a general tip of advice which classes class features would you improve? Would you do Eldritch Disciple OR Cleric?

PId6
2010-05-28, 04:04 AM
Yes, you can heal the ability damage via Lesser Restoration. It's somewhat inefficient though, and eats your 2nd level spells very quickly. A wand of it is much better, but that's not cheap until higher levels.

If you're going to do Eldritch Disciple though, I'd recommend just skipping Hellfire Warlock. It's good, but it doesn't advance cleric casting, and cleric casting is better. Ultimately cleric > warlock and you'll want to max out cleric as much as you can while only dipping warlock goodies. I'd take Eldritch Disciple as far as you can, and Legacy Champion beyond that if possible, but if not, just take 10 levels of Eldritch Disciple and finish up with more cleric advancement.

nedz
2010-05-28, 04:53 AM
@ Nedz: Ok that is the glaive lock. I knew about that invocation but didn't know there was a lock tactic with it involved.

Lock is short for Warlock :smallsmile:
So a GlaiveLock is a Warlock based around Eldritch Glaive.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 01:18 PM
Lock is short for Warlock :smallsmile:
So a GlaiveLock is a Warlock based around Eldritch Glaive.

@ PId6: Well right now I have the Travel and Luck Domains with Luck's domain power given up for Spontaneously casting restoration spells. HOWEVER I may get rid of this quality to go with the UNDEATH and Planning Domains using the gish Idea of become a Lich. :smallbiggrin:

@ nedz:OK LOL didn't catch that. :smalltongue: I don't normally play warlocks just clerics or ranger's or fighter's. :smallbiggrin:

So would this class progression be the best to go for assuming DM allows Legacy Champion?

Warlock 1/Cleric 4/ Eldritch Disciple 5/ Legacy Champion 10

OR If DM says Absolutly no then would this be better:

Warlock 1/Cleric 4/Eldritch Disciple 10/ Cleric 5

Also one question on spells. Does anybody know what a good combonation of spells are to make the opponent locked if they don't save. I know blasphemy is one of several good spells for this purpose.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 01:58 PM
There is another (better) option besides Legacy Champion - Mystic Theurge can advance both Warlock Invocations and Cleric Spells, and unlike LC will not lose caster levels.

The Divine Magician ACF (CM) gives your cleric arcane spells in place of a domain, allowing you to qualify without problems. From there, advance Warlock and Cleric.

It's also easier to get Complete Mage into most games than Weapons of Legacy.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 02:38 PM
There is another (better) option besides Legacy Champion - Mystic Theurge can advance both Warlock Invocations and Cleric Spells, and unlike LC will not lose caster levels.

The Divine Magician ACF (CM) gives your cleric arcane spells in place of a domain, allowing you to qualify without problems. From there, advance Warlock and Cleric.

It's also easier to get Complete Mage into most games than Weapons of Legacy.

I read Divine Magician and honestly I don't like the idea of getting rid of a domain completely IF I can get the undeath and planning domain idea ok'ed by my DM. However if that doesn't work then which domain would you take out of the two? Because I can easily pick up a Domain with a crappy power and trade out its ability with Spontaneous Restoration AND keep its spell selection. UNLESS you think there is a better alternative in the Arcane Spell list. If so plz list what spells you would choose for this particular build.

Warlock 1/Cleric 4/Eldritch Disciple 10/ Cleric 5

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-28, 02:50 PM
Actually, due to the ruling in Complete Arcane which allows Warlocks to qualify for PrCs that have spellcasting requirements, you can go into Mystic Theurge right after Eldritch Disciple with no cheese required.

At least one of your Invocations will count as "casting 2nd level Arcane Spells".

DragoonWraith
2010-05-28, 02:53 PM
I suggest you reread Complete Arcane - it specifically says you cannot do that. You can't qualify for anything that requires "X level spells". "Caster Level X" you can do, and you can also do "able to cast X spell" if there's an Invocation that mimics it, but you can't actually cast spells.

It's a really dumb ruling, IMO.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 05:33 PM
Actually, due to the ruling in Complete Arcane which allows Warlocks to qualify for PrCs that have spellcasting requirements, you can go into Mystic Theurge right after Eldritch Disciple with no cheese required.

At least one of your Invocations will count as "casting 2nd level Arcane Spells".

No, Warlocks can't get into MT on their own (see DragoonWraith's post.) MT will advance Warlock, but you need another way to actually get in.

Warlocks can only qualify for PrCs that say "Caster Level X" like Blood Magus, and "Able to cast X" like Mindbender/Swanmay.


I read Divine Magician and honestly I don't like the idea of getting rid of a domain completely IF I can get the undeath and planning domain idea ok'ed by my DM. However if that doesn't work then which domain would you take out of the two? Because I can easily pick up a Domain with a crappy power and trade out its ability with Spontaneous Restoration AND keep its spell selection. UNLESS you think there is a better alternative in the Arcane Spell list. If so plz list what spells you would choose for this particular build.

Warlock 1/Cleric 4/Eldritch Disciple 10/ Cleric 5

You don't have to drop either of them. Be a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) and trade your free Knowledge Domain in for Divine Magician. The flavor even fits - you cloistered away and learned some arcane magic. Done.

(Because you are using Divine Power to boost your BAB anyway, CC's poor BAB is irrelevant.)

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 05:38 PM
Ok so Mystic Theurge is out. I don't like the HD and I want a little more for my expenditure. I mean I am already losing some stuff as far as levels but I am not the primary Arcane guy. I just thought it would be cool to combine the two classes since no one has ever done that within my party. any feat suggestions for the build.

Right now i have the following which may change due to domains changing:
1 Enhanced Power Sigil
3 Extend Spell
6 Persist Spell
9 DMM Persist
12 Power Attack
15 I dont know
18 I dont know

If I choose the Planning and Undeath domains choice will change as follows:
Domain: Extra Turning
Domain: Extend Spell
1 Enhanced Power Sigil
3 Persist Spell
6 DMM Persist
9 Extra Turning (again)
12 Power Attack
15 I dont know
18 I dont know

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 05:39 PM
Ok so Mystic Theurge is out. I don't like the HD and I want a little more for my expenditure.

I don't understand. Are you going with Legacy Champion then? that's the only other way to get both 9th-level spells and Dark Invocations with Cleric/Warlock.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 05:45 PM
I don't understand. Are you going with Legacy Champion then? that's the only other way to get both 9th-level spells and Dark Invocations with Cleric/Warlock.

Ok, I was just about to edit my above post till I saw ur post. :smallbiggrin:

I may do that because we don't really have an arcane spellcaster type person. I see the cloistered cleric and I can do some really good fluff with it. I think I will change the build to the following:

Illumian with the extra CL sigil and + INT sigil
Warlock 1/ Cloistered Cleric of Lichdom 4/ Eldritch Disciple 10/Mystic Theurge 5

Domains: Knowledge (traded out for Divine Magician), Planning, Undeath

Feats:
Domain: Extra Turning
Domain: Extend Spell
1 Persist Spell
3 DMM persist
6 Extra Turning
9 Knowledge Devotion
12 Power Attack
15 IDK
18 I dont know

The only problem I can see with it is that I need to know if I need to absolutely have access to the knowledge domain for the feat OR if I can get away with Knowledge devotion even though i "sacrificed it" for divine magician

PId6
2010-05-28, 05:50 PM
The only problem I can see with it is that I need to know if I need to absolutely have access to the knowledge domain for the feat OR if I can get away with Knowledge devotion even though i "sacrificed it" for divine magician
There's nothing preventing you from actually taking Knowledge Devotion even if you trade Knowledge Domain away. However, know that you do lose several Knowledge skills from cloistered cleric since you don't have the domain, leaving only Arcana, Religion, and Planes (which is still pretty good, and you can use Knowledge Devotion to nab Nature to get all four good ones).

If you have extra feats, you can't go wrong with just taking Extra Turning.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 05:56 PM
The only problem I can see with it is that I need to know if I need to absolutely have access to the knowledge domain for the feat OR if I can get away with Knowledge devotion even though i "sacrificed it" for divine magician

You can just take Knowledge Devotion normally as one of your feats.


If you have extra feats, you can't go wrong with just taking Extra Turning.

This - your turning is being stretched very thin between DMM and your ED powers, so you will need as many attempts as you can get.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 06:35 PM
So basically replace unknown feats with extra turning. Ok I can do that.

What spells would you recommend for Divine Magician. I think haste at lvl 3 is very helpful.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 06:40 PM
Haste is out - you can only pick Abjuration, Divination and Necromancy spells, but Haste is Transmutation.

Shivering Touch is great against dragons. In fact, there are lots of nice necro spells like rays a cleric wouldn't normally get. Since rays are kind of your thing anyway you can go that route.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 06:46 PM
DANG IT :smallfurious:. I wanted haste....... :smallfrown:

any suggestions?

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 06:49 PM
DANG IT :smallfurious:. I wanted haste....... :smallfrown:

any suggestions?

UMD it - you're a Warlock, you get Deceive Item at Warlock 4.

Abjuration and Divination are generally covered by your cleric side, though you can pick up some nice spells like True Strike for your EB that way. It really depends on what you'll be up against.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 06:55 PM
UMD it - you're a Warlock, you get Deceive Item at Warlock 4.

Are you suggesting I get a wand or scroll for it? If so then yes I would Use Magic Device on it if I had enough INT but I guess all the skills I need are the following:

Sense Motive: 5
concentration: MAX
Bluff: 5
UMD: MAX
Knowledge religion: MAX
Arcana: MAX
The Planes: MAX
Spellcraft: MAX


Abjuration and Divination are generally covered by your cleric side, though you can pick up some nice spells like True Strike for your EB that way. It really depends on what you'll be up against.

Well I have no idea what were up against. New DM and just started the campaign. So I will do some research and see which spells would be good choices. If you could please list some high utility spells that would be probably good regardless.

Thanks GITP for the help making this character work. :smallbiggrin:

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-28, 07:00 PM
I have no idea how many spells of what kinds Divine Magician gives you... but...

True Strike & Shield (if you don't carry a Shield) are two good 1st level spells.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 07:24 PM
Are you suggesting I get a wand or scroll for it? If so then yes I would Use Magic Device on it if I had enough INT but I guess all the skills I need are the following:

Sense Motive: 5
concentration: MAX
Bluff: 5
UMD: MAX
Knowledge religion: MAX
Arcana: MAX
The Planes: MAX
Spellcraft: MAX


Cloistered Cleric gets a ton of skill points so that shouldn't be a problem. And no, you don't need to max UMD at all - Deceive Item lets you take 10 on UMD checks (even in combat) so you can get by with less ranks there. You also don't need to UMD divine scrolls/wands because you're a cleric.



I have no idea how many spells of what kinds Divine Magician gives you...

It gives one wizard spell per level, of either the Abjuration, Divination or Necromancy schools, taken from any source.

Think of it as a custom domain.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-28, 07:35 PM
Use Magic Device and Deceive Item are the best Warlock features. Seriously. Try to get at least a +10 on your UMD check so you can take-10 to hit 20 for Wands. It's not that hard.

Also, UMD keys off of Cha, not Int. You probably just meant you don't have the skill points, but just in case. As a Cleric/Warlock, you should probably have pretty decent Cha (for Turn Undead and Invocations), though it's not necessary (only affects Invocation DCs, which may not be important to you if you stick to Eldritch Blast and utility Invocations). If you do have, say, a 14 with a +2 item, that's +3, so you need another +7. 7 ranks probably shouldn't break the bank, but you can always use magic items to improve your magic item use. Or a Masterwork Tool, if you can think of something that your DM agrees would help.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 07:49 PM
I just realized something. Eldritch Disciple doesn't improve the Warlock Class features and Decieve Item is a 4th lvl warlock class feature. So how am I supposed to get that class feature with Warlock 1/rest of classes? I mean I get your guys idea and I agree with it but it seems I can not attain that class feature with my posted build

warlock 1/cloistered cleric of lichdom 4/eldritch disciple 10/Mystic Theurge 5

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 07:59 PM
I just realized something. Eldritch Disciple doesn't improve the Warlock Class features and Decieve Item is a 4th lvl warlock class feature. So how am I supposed to get that class feature with Warlock 1/rest of classes? I mean I get your guys idea and I agree with it but it seems I can not attain that class feature with my posted build

warlock 1/cloistered cleric of lichdom 4/eldritch disciple 10/Mystic Theurge 5

Oh my bad, I was thinking of the ur-lock build.
But you can still UMD items of Haste, you just can't take 10 in combat.

If you really want Deceive Item, you can use Ur-Priest instead of Cleric - they get Rebuke Undead too. The catch is you have to be Evil.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 08:05 PM
Oh my bad, I was thinking of the ur-lock build.
But you can still UMD items of Haste, you just can't take 10 in combat.

If you really want Deceive Item, you can use Ur-Priest instead of Cleric - they get Rebuke Undead too. The catch is you have to be Evil.

I guess I will just pump points into UMD then since I can't be evil..... good campaign or at the very worst neutral..... :smallfrown:

Well at least I got a solid build now. Any ideas for invocations besides Eldritch Glaive (already decided I am taking it)?

I thought about the one's that boost my Knowledge's and ones that help with social interactions. Unless the GITP has better suggestions?

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-28, 08:13 PM
Fell Flight (flying is nice)
Otherworldly Whispers for +6 on most Knowledges & Spellcraft is useful.
If you can convince your DM that the Dragonfire Adept Invocations should be open to you, then Humanoid Shape is sweet.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 08:22 PM
Seconding Fell Flight, as that will allow you to qualify for Flyby Attack.

Baleful Utterance is great - Shatter at-will, so start sundering the crap out of doors, weapons, anything that you don't want to deal with.

See the Unseen - See Invis + Darkvision for 24 hours, very worth it.

Check the Warlock Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=9ccl3goq5t5rrvgjf68n3jv3p6&topic=2915.0) for more.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 08:26 PM
Quick question: Can the battle caster feat let me attain the ability to wear mithral fullplate? Or should I just go with mithral breastplate if anything?

OR should i do the cheesy robe+greater magic vestment+MIC armor boosting powers+monks belt combo?

PId6
2010-05-28, 08:30 PM
Quick question: Can the battle caster feat let me attain the ability to wear mithral fullplate? Or should I just go with mithral breastplate if anything?

OR should i do the cheesy robe+greater magic vestment+MIC armor boosting powers+monks belt combo?
Yes, you can wear mithral full plate with Battle Caster. It's an extra +3 AC vs the breastplate, so whether that's worth it is up to you.

The bracers+magic vestment+monk's belt combo is obviously more powerful though.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 08:44 PM
Ok I will go the bracers+magic vestment+monk's belt route.

For invocations would you do the following with 11 to choose:

Least:
All seeing eyes
Baleful utterence
See the unseen
otherworldly whispers
entropic warding

Lesser:
eldritch Chain
The Dead walk
Fell-flight

Greater:
Repelling Blast
Vitriolic Blast

Dark:
Utterdark Blast

PId6
2010-05-28, 09:01 PM
Repelling Blast isn't that great, and The Dead Walk isn't necessary when you already have cleric casting for Animate Dead.

And you definitely need moar Eldritch Glaive.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 09:09 PM
I'm not a melee pro by any means, but could Repelling Blast provoke an AoO on the target? You knock them back with your Repelling Glaive, but it has reach, so they provoke an AoO when they fly back a square?

If not, then PID6 is right, you're better off without that one.

PId6
2010-05-28, 09:15 PM
I'm not a melee pro by any means, but could Repelling Blast provoke an AoO on the target? You knock them back with your Repelling Glaive, but it has reach, so they provoke an AoO when they fly back a square?

If not, then PID6 is right, you're better off without that one.
The invocation itself states that the movement doesn't provoke, so it's worthless. Also allows a save, and you don't want to have to support Cha that much.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 09:27 PM
Ok so glaive in place of the dead walk. What to replace Repelling blast?

PId6
2010-05-28, 09:33 PM
Flee the Scene is fun. Walk Unseen is very good. Voidsense is decent. Chilling Tentacles is amazing. I'm also a fan of Dark Foresight and Retributive Invisibility, but Utterdark Blast is quite good too. Entropic Warding is not really needed either, IMO.

Os1ris09
2010-05-29, 12:30 PM
Ok so where is chilling tentacles and dark foresight?

Your Nemesis
2010-05-29, 12:35 PM
Both are part of the complete mage warlock invocations.

PId6
2010-05-29, 12:46 PM
No, both are from Complete Arcane, where the warlock is. :smalltongue:

Os1ris09
2010-05-29, 01:43 PM
Ok. So I have a very good question. Divine Magician lets you pick XX arcane spells from certain schools and add them to your spell list. BUT you cast the in a divine fashion. How does this allow me into the mystic theurge PrC?

From what I can tell the current build I am going with doesn't have any means of arcane casting without UMD