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lsfreak
2010-05-27, 04:30 PM
...depending on your definition of 'quick.' I was unsure whether to put this in homebrew, since fairly quick-fixes rather than complete rewrites often go in Roleplaying, but this is slightly more than normal for a quick-fix. Also, I think the threads here probably get read more reliably :p

Okay, I'm throwing together a shadowcaster NPC that my PC's are going to control. Wondering if this is going to be enough to bring the shadowcaster up to a more solid T3/lowT2. Since the campaign looks like it's going to be going to 20 and the PC's are only moderately optimized, I'd like to avoid the common fix of making mysteries/day instead mysteries/encounter (I'm not fond of dropping Ephemeral Storm every single encounter, or near-limitless dominated creatures).

The changes found here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/184955-shadowcaster-fixes-mouseferatu.html#post3273239) (main points: Cha determines save DC's and grants bonus mysteries, mysteries can be taken out of path order, bonus feats based on completed paths, Apprentice mysteries become true [Su] with DC of 10+1/2lvl+Cha).

Fundamentals are usable unlimited times per day.

All Apprentice mysteries gain one extra use per day. At every odd level from 7th level until 19th level, a shadowcaster gains a bonus mystery slot of that level's mysteries (4th level mysteries for 7th level, 5th level mysteries at 9th level) as if from high Charisma.

Gain an extra mystery at 1st level, and at 4th level and every even level thereafter.

Bonus metashadow feat at 6th, 12th, 18th level.

On 7th level, Heighten a mystery 1/day as if it were at your highest-level slot, with a +2 to caster level. This increase in CL can overcome level-based caps on spells. An addition use at 13th and 19th level.

20th level, something. Not sure what. Throwing around something along the lines of: Three times per day, the shadowcaster can becomes one with the Plane of Shadow. He gains one set of the following benefits, chosen when the ability is activated, and cannot be changed without an additional use:
- All mysteries are cast a +2DC and +4CL, this bonus to CL overcomes level caps on spells.
- Fundamentals and Apprentice mysteries can be auto-quickened, and all Apprentice and Initiate mysteries do not use up their daily uses.
Every round the shadowcaster is in one of these states, he takes 2 points of Constitution damage. This damage cannot be prevented in any way, even though immunity, and cannot be healed for 10 minutes after the ability is ended. The shadowcaster can voluntarily end this state at any time as a free action, even if helpless or unconscious.

The CL bonus of Path Focus and Greater Path Focus overcomes level-based caps.

Metashadow Feats:
Requires no other feats:
Still: Unlimited use
Enlarge: 3/day
Extend: 2/day
Requires 1 other metashadow:
Empower: 2/day
Reach: 2/day
Requires 2 other metashadow:
Line of Shadow: 2/day
Widen: 1/day
Maximize: 1/day
Requires 3 other metashadow:
Chain: 1/day
Quicken: 1/day
Twin: 1/day

New Feat: Metashadow Mastery: Requires 9th level, 2 metashadow feats. While casting a mystery of no more than half your highest-level mystery, you may expend a mystery of the listed level or higher in order to power a metashadow feat without expending a daily use.
Enlarge, Extend: 2nd
Empower, Reach: 4th
Widen, Maximize, Line of Shadow: 6th
Chain, Quicken, Twin: 8th

EDIT: Updated through Post 11 (number of mysteries/day, fundamentals at will).

Eurus
2010-05-27, 05:21 PM
I really like the extra mysteries known and bonus feats, since it removes some of the crippling lack of options that Shadowcasters (in my limited experience) seem to suffer from and makes them less feat-starved. Note that this does require that you remove the silly, silly rule that they can learn a new level of mystery only once they know at least two of the previous level (silly because it only penalizes characters who want to branch out into more weaker mysteries, which is already a generally-less-than-optimal choice).

Also, due to the way that the uses/day of mysteries are worded, Favored Mystery actually does always add one extra use per day. If I remember right, the rule is that mysteries used as spells are 1/day, SLAs are 2/day, and Su are 3/day. So if a Master mystery becomes an SLA, it gets an extra use.

No clue about the proposed capstone, sorry.

arguskos
2010-05-27, 05:28 PM
lsfreak, when I have a more stable connection, I'll take a longer and harder look at your proposed fix list. It's more of a semi-revamp than a quick fix at this point though, since you're including a large number of new things and the proposed semi-official fixes from the designers. Not like that's bad though. :smallbiggrin:

lsfreak
2010-05-27, 05:32 PM
I really like the extra mysteries known and bonus feats, since it removes some of the crippling lack of options that Shadowcasters (in my limited experience) seem to suffer from and makes them less feat-starved.
That was one of my biggest concerns.


Also, due to the way that the uses/day of mysteries are worded, Favored Mystery actually does always add one extra use per day. If I remember right, the rule is that mysteries used as spells are 1/day, SLAs are 2/day, and Su are 3/day. So if a Master mystery becomes an SLA, it gets an extra use.
I can't believe that didn't sink in. I blame a late session last night and functioning on too little sleep today :smallredface:

arguskos
2010-05-27, 06:17 PM
The changes found here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/184955-shadowcaster-fixes-mouseferatu.html#post3273239) (main points: Cha determines save DC's and grants bonus mysteries, mysteries can be taken out of path order, bonus feats based on completed paths, Apprentice mysteries become true [Su] with DC of 10+1/2lvl+Cha).
No debates here. Love those changes personally.


Fundamentals are usable 3+Cha times at 1st level, unlimited at 9th level.
I am wondering why the limit at all, but I'm also the guy who loves infinite cantrips and reserve feats, so, fair enough.


All Apprentice and Initiate mysteries gain one extra use per day. At 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th levels, gain an extra bonus mystery of the relevant level, as if from high charisma.
"of the relevant level" is not super clear. Do you meant that at level 13 you gain a bonus Initiate mystery, while at level 17 you gain a bonus Master? This is partially just cause I'm tired and all, but yeah, its always good to clarify.


Gain an extra mystery known on every even level.
Fair enough, though you'll start running out at some point.


Bonus metashadow feat at 6th, 12th, 18th level.
Sounds good.


On 7th level, Heighten a mystery 1/day as if it were at your highest-level slot, with a +2 to caster level. This increase in CL can overcome level-based caps on spells. An addition use at 13th and 19th level.
Looks alright.


20th level, something. Not sure what. Throwing around something along the lines of: Three times per day, the shadowcaster can becomes one with the Plane of Shadow. He gains one set of the following benefits, chosen when the ability is activated, and cannot be changed without an additional use:
- All mysteries are cast a +2DC and +4CL, this bonus to CL overcomes level caps on spells.
- Fundamentals and Apprentice mysteries can be auto-quickened, and all Apprentice and Initiate mysteries do not use up their daily uses.
Every round the shadowcaster is in one of these states, he takes 2 points of Constitution damage. This damage cannot be prevented in any way, even though immunity, and cannot be healed for 10 minutes after the ability is ended. The shadowcaster can voluntarily end this state at any time as a free action, even if helpless or unconscious.
Personally, I don't like this. It doesn't really fit with the Shadowcaster as I see it currently. Perhaps giving them something like the Dread Necromancer's capstone (ie. a free template) or somesuch would be more thematic.


Favored Mystery always adds one extra use per day (two if the spell later becomes a supernatural ability).
Doesn't this feat already give you an extra use? The +2 thing is nice though.


The CL bonus of Path Focus and Greater Path Focus overcomes level-based caps.
Don't like this one. I dislike breaking level-caps, but that's just me.


Metashadow Feats:
Requires no other feats:
Still: 3/day
Enlarge: 3/day
Extend: 2/day
Requires 1 other metashadow:
Empower: 2/day
Split: 2/day
Reach: 2/day
Requires 2 other metashadow:
Line of Shadow: 2/day
Widen: 1/day
Maximize: 1/day
Requires 3 other metashadow:
Chain: 1/day
Quicken: 1/day
Looks fine and is a fair addition. Technically, Still just got nerfed, since it currently has no listed use cap (permitting silliness like Still Mystery and heavy armor prof to be giggletastic), but, I sincerely doubt it's an issue.


New Feat: Metashadow Mastery: Requires 9th level, 2 metashadow feats. While casting a mystery of no more than half your highest-level mystery, you may expend a mystery of the listed level or higher in order to power a metashadow feat without expending a daily use.
Still, Enlarge, Extend: 2nd
Empower, Split, Reach: 4th
Widen, Maximize, Line of Shadow: 6th
Chain, Quicken: 8th
I really don't think this feat is all that useful. Even with the bonus uses, it's probably going to be better to use your mysteries than burn them on this feat. That's just me though, and I'll grant there might be moments where burning a mystery to get an extra Chain might be really good.

lsfreak
2010-05-27, 06:33 PM
I am wondering why the limit at all, but I'm also the guy who loves infinite cantrips and reserve feats, so, fair enough.
I considered it. I've gone back and forth between limitless or not, and I think I'm leaning towards removing the restriction altogether.


"of the relevant level" is not super clear. Do you meant that at level 13 you gain a bonus Initiate mystery, while at level 17 you gain a bonus Master? This is partially just cause I'm tired and all, but yeah, its always good to clarify.
Good point. Meant that at 13th level you get a bonus 7th level slot, 15th a bonus 8th level, 17th a bonus 9th level. I didn't like giving all the Master mysteries an extra use each, but this gives a bit more uses of the 7/8/9th level ones.



Fair enough, though you'll start running out at some point.
I've got a few homebrew ones I'm finishing up and should have in the homebrew later tonight, and Realms of Chaos has a whole ton of them that I'll probably be pulling selectively from.


Personally, I don't like this. It doesn't really fit with the Shadowcaster as I see it currently. Perhaps giving them something like the Dread Necromancer's capstone (ie. a free template) or somesuch would be more thematic.
I viewed Shadow magic as harder to master, more powerful, but also more dangerous than typical magic. This might be influenced by what I remember reading from Realms of Chaos's fluff, though.



Doesn't this feat already give you an extra use? The +2 thing is nice though. Yep, moment of tiredness on my part. Unsure if I'm going to keep the +2, but for such a low-level mystery I'm considering it.



Don't like this one. I dislike breaking level-caps, but that's just me.
It's breaking level caps, but only for the bonus caster levels from the feats. I'm of the opinion that most level caps are fairly arbitrary anywho, since it's often damage spells that are capped, while things like haste are not.



Looks fine and is a fair addition. Technically, Still just got nerfed, since it currently has no listed use cap (permitting silliness like Still Mystery and heavy armor prof to be giggletastic), but, I sincerely doubt it's an issue.
Once again, something I just happened to skim over. I'll probably keep it at unlimited use, then.



I really don't think this feat is all that useful. Even with the bonus uses, it's probably going to be better to use your mysteries than burn them on this feat. That's just me though, and I'll grant there might be moments where burning a mystery to get an extra Chain might be really good.
I'm going with the assumption that the lower-level ones might be used fairly often, especially to keep low-level mysteries relevant. The ones that require sacrificing 6th or 8th level spells are more for emergency situations. I thought of it from a sorc's perspective, too: normally quickening a 4th level spell is an 8th level slot, this adds the cost of a 4th level slot for doing it when you shouldn't be able to.

arguskos
2010-05-27, 06:41 PM
I considered it. I've gone back and forth between limitless or not, and I think I'm leaning towards removing the restriction altogether.
I'd probably remove the restriction, but it's your call.


Good point. Meant that at 13th level you get a bonus 7th level slot, 15th a bonus 8th level, 17th a bonus 9th level. I didn't like giving all the Master mysteries an extra use each, but this gives a bit more uses of the 7/8/9th level ones.

What do you get at 19th then? :smallconfused:


I've got a few homebrew ones I'm finishing up and should have in the homebrew later tonight, and Realms of Chaos has a whole ton of them that I'll probably be pulling selectively from.

I have all of Realms' work. It's good work. Still, as written, you will run out at some point. It might be wiser to slow the new acquisition to one bonus/two levels, so people using just ToM don't run out of stuff and to preserve a reasonable balance point.


I viewed Shadow magic as harder to master, more powerful, but also more dangerous than typical magic. This might be influenced by what I remember reading from Realms of Chaos's fluff, though.

I dunno, I still don't think it fits thematically. Nothing else in the class indicates that level of difficulty or stat damage.


Yep, moment of tiredness on my part. Unsure if I'm going to keep the +2, but for such a low-level mystery I'm considering it.

Fair enough. I have those all the time.


It's breaking level caps, but only for the bonus caster levels from the feats. I'm of the opinion that most level caps are fairly arbitrary anywho, since it's often damage spells that are capped, while things like haste are not.

I still dislike breaking level caps, but, it's your call.


Once again, something I just happened to skim over. I'll probably keep it at unlimited use, then.

Yeah, most folks actually seem to miss that. It only works on arcane spell mysteries (given that all others already lack somatic components), but it's unlimited in use. This makes Shadowcasters scary with a level of Fighter or something.


I'm going with the assumption that the lower-level ones might be used fairly often, especially to keep low-level mysteries relevant. The ones that require sacrificing 6th or 8th level spells are more for emergency situations. I thought of it from a sorc's perspective, too: normally quickening a 4th level spell is an 8th level slot, this adds the cost of a 4th level slot for doing it when you shouldn't be able to.
Ah. I probably wouldn't take it personally, but I see where you're coming from then.

lsfreak
2010-05-27, 07:13 PM
What do you get at 19th then? :smallconfused:
Ha. Oops. Another relic of me being too tired. Fixed.


I have all of Realms' work. It's good work. Still, as written, you will run out at some point. It might be wiser to slow the new acquisition to one bonus/two levels, so people using just ToM don't run out of stuff and to preserve a reasonable balance point.
Just to make sure there's not a misunderstanding here, it's an extra mystery every even level. You'll end up with 30 total, not 40. I think you might have skimmed over that one word :smallsmile:
EDIT: Hmm. Would it be better to go with odd levels, so they start out with 2 mysteries versus 1? I was unsure about starting them off every new mystery level with 2 mysteries versus just 1, as it would give them 4 slots (plus Charisma) of their highest-level mysteries, and I didn't entirely like that. I thought it would even out their power gain if, when first getting a new level of mysteries, they started out with only 1 available (likely used 3 times per day) instead of 2 available (likely 5 times per day).


I dunno, I still don't think it fits thematically. Nothing else in the class indicates that level of difficulty or stat damage.
I think what I wanted was an ability that didn't have a set limit on it, but let the user choose whether it's worth it to keep going. I could alternatively just put it as "for x rounds," but I don't entirely like that. I'm completely open to suggestions on the capstone, either to alter what I have, or something completely new.

My view of shadowcasters - less stuff known, but tends to be more powerful than the level-equivalent arcane spells (barring a few of the more stupidly-powerful wizard spells) - lends itself to being fluffed up as tapping into a more powerful and more dangerous power source, but also that they can choose more carefully how far they tap into that source and make use of it (unlike wizards' formulae, sorcerers where it's innate but hard-to-control talent, and something like Far Realms where you simply can't resist tapping in). Hence both the backlash making some sense (I agree that I don't think it's ideal), and also breaking the caster level caps on spells.

arguskos
2010-05-27, 07:44 PM
Ha. Oops. Another relic of me being too tired. Fixed.
Fair enough then.


Just to make sure there's not a misunderstanding here, it's an extra mystery every even level. You'll end up with 30 total, not 40. I think you might have skimmed over that one word :smallsmile:
EDIT: Hmm. Would it be better to go with odd levels, so they start out with 2 mysteries versus 1? I was unsure about starting them off every new mystery level with 2 mysteries versus just 1, as it would give them 4 slots (plus Charisma) of their highest-level mysteries, and I didn't entirely like that. I thought it would even out their power gain if, when first getting a new level of mysteries, they started out with only 1 available (likely used 3 times per day) instead of 2 available (likely 5 times per day).

So I did, so I did. Also, concerning your edit, I'm going to vote for odd levels in that case.


I think what I wanted was an ability that didn't have a set limit on it, but let the user choose whether it's worth it to keep going. I could alternatively just put it as "for x rounds," but I don't entirely like that. I'm completely open to suggestions on the capstone, either to alter what I have, or something completely new.

See, it just doesn't fit with what we've already got. Nothing in the Shadow Magic fluff as it stands implies such a cost would fit or make sense, leading me to think it's unwise to include. I did read your personal views (and agree in some cases), but given that they aren't going to be shared by the community at large, it's not always a good plan to make things based on personal re-imaginings of what you are reworking (this sounds really harsh, but it's not meant to be; it's just that when you revamp something, you can't really change the fluff, as folks already have the fluff from the printed works, so you have to work with what you've already got).

As for a new capstone, I personally really like giving them a free power boost, such as the Umbral or Shadow template. It fits thematically (there's at least 1 PrC about turning into a shadow-like creature, and lots of mysteries are similarish in flavor and effect), is reasonably powerful, is an effect that is hard to acquire elsewhere, and is damned different. That would be my suggestion, in any case.

peacenlove
2010-05-27, 09:58 PM
...depending on your definition of 'quick.' I was unsure whether to put this in homebrew, since fairly quick-fixes rather than complete rewrites often go in Roleplaying, but this is slightly more than normal for a quick-fix. Also, I think the threads here probably get read more reliably :p

Okay, I'm throwing together a shadowcaster NPC that my PC's are going to control. Wondering if this is going to be enough to bring the shadowcaster up to a more solid T3/lowT2. Since the campaign looks like it's going to be going to 20 and the PC's are only moderately optimized, I'd like to avoid the common fix of making mysteries/day instead mysteries/encounter (I'm not fond of dropping Ephemeral Storm every single encounter, or near-limitless dominated creatures).

Speaking from personal experience, Shadowcaster NPC's tend to hurt a lot due to nearly or outright undispellable/undisruptable abilities and their ability to see in darkness and their ability to easily metamagic their highest level mysteries. What they lack is a wealth of choices, something Realms Of Chaos and other good homebrewers took care of :smallamused:

The changes found here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/184955-shadowcaster-fixes-mouseferatu.html#post3273239) (main points: Cha determines save DC's and grants bonus mysteries, mysteries can be taken out of path order, bonus feats based on completed paths, Apprentice mysteries become true [Su] with DC of 10+1/2lvl+Cha).

They are indeed solid houserules as i have heard a lot on these boards

Fundamentals are usable 3+Cha times at 1st level, unlimited at 9th level.

Give them unlimited fundamentals at level 1 please :smallamused: the only problematic one would be Caul of shadow that would act as a Free ring of protection +1 however AC is not an issue at low levels

All Apprentice and Initiate mysteries gain one extra use per day. At 13th, 15th, and 17th levels, gain an extra bonus mystery of 7th, 8th, and 9th levels, respectively, as if from high Charisma.

My concern with this fix, mousefartou fix and the proposed change below is that you create a class with almost DOUBLE mystery uses per day than the sorcerer. This combined with the inherent resistance of mysteries to be dispelled/disrupted tends to make them rather strong in a party. Consider alternatively at 19th level upgrading his master mysteries into spell like abilities and his initiate as supernatural abilities.

Gain an extra mystery known on every even level.

Bonus metashadow feat at 6th, 12th, 18th level.

People seem to forget that more mysteries known = more feats. You net the shadowcaster 3 more feats this way (10 mysteries = 3,33 paths completed). Also make it at odd levels, the 1st level shadowcaster having 1 mystery known is unfair IMO.

On 7th level, Heighten a mystery 1/day as if it were at your highest-level slot, with a +2 to caster level. This increase in CL can overcome level-based caps on spells. An addition use at 13th and 19th level.

CL increases over the cap are almost unheard of (with Elven Spell lore, some other feat from a dragonlance book and possibly 2-3 other cases being the exception) and they are very strong for non damaging spells/mysteries such as dispel magic. Also at 13th level, or with judicious use of Favored mystery feats most of your important mysteries will be supernatural in nature thus having the maximum possible save and no listed level (so they bypass globe of invurnerability and similar defenses) making this rule reduntant.

20th level, something. Not sure what. Throwing around something along the lines of: Three times per day, the shadowcaster can becomes one with the Plane of Shadow. He gains one set of the following benefits, chosen when the ability is activated, and cannot be changed without an additional use:
- All mysteries are cast a +2DC and +4CL, this bonus to CL overcomes level caps on spells.
- Fundamentals and Apprentice mysteries can be auto-quickened, and all Apprentice and Initiate mysteries do not use up their daily uses.
Every round the shadowcaster is in one of these states, he takes 2 points of Constitution damage. This damage cannot be prevented in any way, even though immunity, and cannot be healed for 10 minutes after the ability is ended. The shadowcaster can voluntarily end this state at any time as a free action, even if helpless or unconscious.

While in my class i have not done so, due to the free path masteries i give to the class, I heartily approve of Arguskos suggestion of a free template. Alternatively you can improve all his miscellaneous abilities (like improving the sustaining shadow to give regeneration or fast healing, Spell resistance 10+caster level and DR 10/magic and silver and Umbral sight to see in darkness at an unlimited range, fundamentals casted as extraordinary abilities and giving him blind sight 60 feet). In my experience a shadowcaster is a defensive caster and master of debuffs not a risk taking caster (none of his class abilities and mysteries indicate so :smallconfused:)

Favored Mystery always adds one extra use per day (two if the spell later becomes a supernatural ability).

Favored Mystery is already a good feat to take due to the nature of spell like and supernatural abilities.

The CL bonus of Path Focus and Greater Path Focus overcomes level-based caps.

Again shadowcasters are good dispellers, no need to boost them further.

Metashadow Feats:
Requires no other feats:
Still: 3/day
Enlarge: 3/day
Extend: 2/day
Requires 1 other metashadow:
Empower: 2/day
Split: 2/day
Reach: 2/day
Requires 2 other metashadow:
Line of Shadow: 2/day
Widen: 1/day
Maximize: 1/day
Requires 3 other metashadow:
Chain: 1/day
Quicken: 1/day

Chain should require 2 more metamagic feats thus keeping it in line with Maximize mystery which emulates a +3 metamagic feat. Also if you included chain, also include twin mystery, my shadowcaster loves it :smallbiggrin: Lastly Return Still mystery to its original state, armored shadowcasters are not problematic and actually lose mobility (a non issue if they select flicker but still...)


My comments in blue text. Also shameless plug to my Pathfinder Shadowcaster written in my sig (if you like it i can send you its updated 3.5 incarnation :smallsmile:).
Lastly i need to add my belief that the shadowcaster needs just a few tweaks to be more satisfying as a class. What he really needs are more options (And having playtested descent of shadows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519) for nearly 2 years, Realms of Chaos work is VERY good at that)

lsfreak
2010-05-27, 11:13 PM
Speaking from personal experience, Shadowcaster NPC's tend to hurt a lot due to nearly or outright undispellable/undisruptable abilities and their ability to see in darkness and their ability to easily metamagic their highest level mysteries. What they lack is a wealth of choices, something Realms Of Chaos and other good homebrewers took care of
It's metamagicking their highest-level stuff that concerns me most, though maybe it's just that I haven't been in a group that dispels/counterspells all that often.


Give them unlimited fundamentals at level 1 please the only problematic one would be Caul of shadow that would act as a Free ring of protection +1 however AC is not an issue at low levels
I think I've pretty much been convinced. Free fundamentals.


My concern with this fix, mousefartou fix and the proposed change below is that you create a class with almost DOUBLE mystery uses per day than the sorcerer. This combined with the inherent resistance of mysteries to be dispelled/disrupted tends to make them rather strong in a party. Consider alternatively at 19th level upgrading his master mysteries into spell like abilities and his initiate as supernatural abilities.
You're right that all three together are probably a bit much, but I'm unsure which to cut. At low levels, a single use per mystery just isn't enough to compete with other characters, and the bonus from Cha isn't enough either. I want the 30 mysteries just so that characters can afford to take some of the less necessary mysteries. Perhaps I should just up all Apprentice mysteries to an extra use per day each.


People seem to forget that more mysteries known = more feats. You net the shadowcaster 3 more feats this way (10 mysteries = 3,33 paths completed).
Only if you follow through with paths. I find that most paths aren't worth going all the way through, though certainly some are. An extra quicken a day just doesn't seem worth giving up a better mystery.


Also make it at odd levels, the 1st level shadowcaster having 1 mystery known is unfair IMO.
First level gets 2 mysteries, then starting at 4th level they get bonus ones every even level? I'm still not sure I like giving them two of their strongest mysteries as soon as they have access to them, it tends to lead to a bit rougher power progression.


While in my class i have not done so, due to the free path masteries i give to the class, I heartily approve of Arguskos suggestion of a free template. Alternatively you can improve all his miscellaneous abilities (like improving the sustaining shadow to give regeneration or fast healing, Spell resistance 10+caster level and DR 10/magic and silver and Umbral sight to see in darkness at an unlimited range, fundamentals casted as extraordinary abilities and giving him blind sight 60 feet).
Yea, I'm leaning more towards that now.


In my experience a shadowcaster is a defensive caster and master of debuffs not a risk taking caster (none of his class abilities and mysteries indicate so )
Well, a lot of the good lower-level spells are touch-range, which arguably makes him a risk-taking caster :smalltongue:


Favored Mystery is already a good feat to take due to the nature of spell like and supernatural abilities.
Just forgot to get rid of that.


Again shadowcasters are good dispellers, no need to boost them further.
Honestly, I'm starting to think them being godly dispellers isn't a problem. I'm getting a bit more concerned about them being impossible to dispel, but as I said, it rarely comes up for me. And it's not like some classes (clerics with Persist/DMM:Persist) have a problem getting near-undispellable spells, so I'm not sure how much of a problem it's going to be with shadowcasters; shadowcasters will simply have a bit of an easier time with it.


Chain should require 2 more metamagic feats thus keeping it in line with Maximize mystery which emulates a +3 metamagic feat. Also if you included chain, also include twin mystery, my shadowcaster loves it Lastly Return Still mystery to its original state, armored shadowcasters are not problematic and actually lose mobility (a non issue if they select flicker but still...)
Probably going to go through with these. Worth noting that, while Chain is normally +3, it's a very strong +3, especially for no-save and buffing spells, which shadowcasters have several of (especially with Reach Metashadow).

peacenlove
2010-05-28, 12:52 AM
It's metamagicking their highest-level stuff that concerns me most, though maybe it's just that I haven't been in a group that dispels/counterspells all that often.

More problems are that most conventional means of shutting down spellcasting (grapple->pin->silence, Mage Slayer line of feats with stand still to negate 5 foot steps, disarm spell component pouch) and many of the more magical ones (globe of invurnerability, spell turning/absorption, spell resistance) are blocked by the shadowcaster as a (arguably hidden) class ability. Also Line of Shadow, an ability exclusive to shadowcasters, negates even more defenses (displacement, prismatic sphere and many others).




You're right that all three together are probably a bit much, but I'm unsure which to cut. At low levels, a single use per mystery just isn't enough to compete with other characters, and the bonus from Cha isn't enough either. I want the 30 mysteries just so that characters can afford to take some of the less necessary mysteries. Perhaps I should just up all Apprentice mysteries to an extra use per day each.



Just erase the charisma bonus to mysteries. 30 mysteries with the suggested upgrade at 19th level works fine for my games although granting a few more uses would not be gamebreaking. Also for versatility treat the shadowcaster as a spontaneous caster, it will add many neat toys to his arsenal (most important runestaves)



Only if you follow through with paths. I find that most paths aren't worth going all the way through, though certainly some are. An extra quicken a day just doesn't seem worth giving up a better mystery.


While our play styles may differ i find many paths in the ToM (and the Cityscape web enhancement) very solid and i can make a viable character with filled apprentice and master paths (i will agree however that initiate paths are underwhelming).



First level gets 2 mysteries, then starting at 4th level they get bonus ones every even level? I'm still not sure I like giving them two of their strongest mysteries as soon as they have access to them, it tends to lead to a bit rougher power progression.


The sorcerer does it too so yeah go with that.




Honestly, I'm starting to think them being godly dispellers isn't a problem. I'm getting a bit more concerned about them being impossible to dispel, but as I said, it rarely comes up for me. And it's not like some classes (clerics with Persist/DMM:Persist) have a problem getting near-undispellable spells, so I'm not sure how much of a problem it's going to be with shadowcasters; shadowcasters will simply have a bit of an easier time with it.



If DMM clerics are common in your campaign then go ahead, i don't see any problem.




Probably going to go through with these. Worth noting that, while Chain is normally +3, it's a very strong +3, especially for no-save and buffing spells, which shadowcasters have several of (especially with Reach Metashadow).

True, i haven't noticed that many of the good buffs (shadow investiture for example) are Chain-able. However that can be said for other casters as well.