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Lev
2010-05-27, 06:15 PM
Can intimidate work well on its own or does it need special class features to really bloom? Can a single player be effective with it or does it need multiple fear-like effects to stack each round?

Merk
2010-05-27, 06:20 PM
IME Intimidate is a very useful skill even without heavy optimization or effort. Just having intimidate means that you have a means of getting others to do what you want them to do (out of combat) and that you have a different option in combat (demoralizing as opposed to straight out attacking). With effort, it becomes a much more useful combat option.

Some DMs will allow you to key Intimidate to Str instead of Cha, which also helps out a lot.

Temotei
2010-05-27, 06:22 PM
It works fine on its own. Don't worry about that.

Although, if you want an optimized Intimidate technique, there's a samurai build on here with that.

IdleMuse
2010-05-27, 06:26 PM
I recommend you have a look at http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0 if you want to build a character with some level of scaring beyond pure Intimidate checks; it's an amazing handbook.

I'm planning on playing a Primal Fear-based Intimidation character in an upcoming Psionic campaign, it's pretty amazing what you can do with it.

Lev
2010-05-27, 06:27 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of a wilder with a crystal mask of dread.

IdleMuse
2010-05-27, 07:24 PM
Sounds awesome. Remember, size increases largely improve intimidate, and I think Expansion is a wilder power?

PId6
2010-05-27, 07:32 PM
Sounds awesome. Remember, size increases largely improve intimidate, and I think Expansion is a wilder power?
Psychic Warrior, but that's what Educated Wilder is for.

Drakevarg
2010-05-27, 07:51 PM
Personally, I don't bother rolling. I'll just RP out the torture sequence step by step until the DM caves. Or, if they don't cave, at least I'll have informed my party that I am not someone to be messed with when I let them get a look of whats left of the annoyingly stubborn prisoner.

Temotei
2010-05-27, 07:58 PM
Personally, I don't bother rolling. I'll just RP out the torture sequence step by step until the DM caves. Or, if they don't cave, at least I'll have informed my party that I am not someone to be messed with when I let them get a look of whats left of the annoyingly stubborn prisoner.

That doesn't always work with DMs. Personally, if you did that, I would lower the DC for good roleplaying.

arguskos
2010-05-27, 08:13 PM
That doesn't always work with DMs. Personally, if you did that, I would lower the DC for good roleplaying.
I'd laugh.

As for how useful Intimidate is, ask yourself this question: how useful will it be to yell REALLY LOUDLY at someone in character, and if the answer is "mildly" or more, then it's awesome. :smallwink:

Lev
2010-05-27, 08:44 PM
I'd laugh.

As for how useful Intimidate is, ask yourself this question: how useful will it be to yell REALLY LOUDLY at someone in character, and if the answer is "mildly" or more, then it's awesome. :smallwink:

Well this is true in the cases of mundane and non-enhanced intimidation, but when it starts to become more potent it's closer to a compulsive fear effect, except you can use it to enhance your diplomacy skill as well... roll a 40 in intimidate, diplomacy or bluff and you can get some pretty interesting results.

Sure you could get a circumstance bonus to intimidate by RPing it well, but generally intimidating someone is an art the same as diplomacy and it doesn't matter how many muffins you bake someone once you ask them to delve into a pit to show you where the monster lives, same as it doesn't matter how many fingernails you've pulled out if you go around kicking puppies eventually your paladin friend will hit you over the back of the head with a boot.

Drakevarg
2010-05-27, 10:00 PM
same as it doesn't matter how many fingernails you've pulled out if you go around kicking puppies eventually your paladin friend will hit you over the back of the head with a boot.

Eh, doesn't matter. I'm Lawful Evil, wouldn't be travelling with a Paladin anyway.

Reason I don't like Intimidate is because I can simply roleplay a(n incredibly detailed, gorey, sadistic) threat and allow them to react in character. If they look tougher than me and I'm in no position to back up these threats, I wouldn't make them in the first place. If I am and they don't comply, I would simply act out those threats and step over their mangled corpse and get whatever I want at the time.

Diplomacy is different because it involves lengthy conversation and deal making, and a player who simply isn't that charismatic IRL wouldn't be able to pull it off, even if their character could. Meanwhile, there is absolutely nothing stopping me from making brutally violent threats towards another's person until they either bend to my will or die in my attempts to make them do so.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 10:17 PM
Meanwhile, there is absolutely nothing stopping me from making brutally violent threats towards another's person until they either bend to my will or die in my attempts to make them do so.

I never considered that to be the non-combat use of Intimidation. I always found Intimidation to be a skill meant more for a social master who generates discomfort and fear with veiled threats rather than just hanging them on the wall until they piss their pants; for such purposes, size, strength and similar are immaterial and it's easy enough to mentally deconstruct even the toughest Barbarian unless they have iron will (high Wis).

Of course, this raises the question as to why it's a class skill for Fighters and Barbarians, but I guess they just needed something or WoTC decided it should also cover Brute Force Intimidation. Too bad it takes a feat to derive that off Str.

Drakevarg
2010-05-27, 10:25 PM
I never considered that to be the non-combat use of Intimidation. I always found Intimidation to be a skill meant more for a social master who generates discomfort and fear with veiled threats rather than just hanging them on the wall until they piss their pants; for such purposes, size, strength and similar are immaterial and it's easy enough to mentally deconstruct even the toughest Barbarian unless they have iron will (high Wis).

Of course, this raises the question as to why it's a class skill for Fighters and Barbarians, but I guess they just needed something or WoTC decided it should also cover Brute Force Intimidation. Too bad it takes a feat to derive that off Str.

Well, personally I'm not much of a fan of the social-interaction skills in general since a) they basically allow for a shortcut around roleplaying and b) some people's personalities are simply not built in a way that would respond to threats. I know from experience, for example, that I quite simply don't get scared. When I feel a sensation that I usually equate as fear, it turns out that it's simply hieghtened awareness of my surroundings. (Other emotions I can never recall experiencing include genuine joy.)

You could be the old sage who can make a veiled threat like nobody's business, but some people, like the huge, borderline insane gnoll sitting across from him (me) aren't going to budge an inch until you've beaten them within an inch of their life. Responding to Intimidate checks by RAW would simply be an out-of-character action.

Lev
2010-05-27, 10:27 PM
It's true, if a character IG is a sociopath with asperger's syndrome the DM will rule the lack of empathy and general emotion accordingly.
Intimidate is just your character's all around ability to project social energy in an intimidating way, you can roleplay all you want but when it comes down to it you really SHOULDN'T be roleplaying beyond your character's capacity. That's like saying that you never spend points in charisma because you can just roleplay it with your natural charisma anyway.

Prodan
2010-05-27, 10:29 PM
Intimidate is Klingon diplomacy.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 10:35 PM
Well, personally I'm not much of a fan of the social-interaction skills in general since a) they basically allow for a shortcut around roleplaying and b) some people's personalities are simply not built in a way that would respond to threats. I know from experience, for example, that I quite simply don't get scared. When I feel a sensation that I usually equate as fear, it turns out that it's simply hieghtened awareness of my surroundings. (Other emotions I can never recall experiencing include genuine joy.)

You could be the old sage who can make a veiled threat like nobody's business, but some people, like the huge, borderline insane gnoll sitting across from him (me) aren't going to budge an inch until you've beaten them within an inch of their life. Responding to Intimidate checks by RAW would simply be an out-of-character action.

Well, how you perceive things I cannot comment on since I'm not you and I don't know you, but I do know that I've never seen a man who couldn't somehow be deconstructed. You dig out their insecurities or inner weaknesses, let them see just for a glimpse how strong you really are (or make them think that in any case), etc.

A good enough intimidator can get to almost anyone, given some time and care. It's an art, like all social skills. Like all social skills, I use it with RP to see how things go; well-done RP gives bonuses, fails give penalties and then we see if the whole is good enough. I've found this very functional. And there are fear-immune things, if that's what you're thinking of; they won't be Intimidated, no matter what.


But maybe you just are a level 3 Paladin, then. Though heightened awareness does sound like it could be an effect of fear; you might monitor the environment to ensure you are in no danger, or that you can react to danger if necessary. But...yeah, it's you so I can't know, again.

Lev
2010-05-27, 10:38 PM
http://static.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/john-glover-as-lionel-luthor.jpg

sofawall
2010-05-27, 10:39 PM
You know, good Intimidation is just as hard to roleplay as good Diplomacy. Also, I don't like real-world charisma having an in-game effect. it leads to one Bard with Skill Focus: Diplo consistently losing to one without it, even the first should statistically win the majority of the time.

Drakevarg
2010-05-27, 10:39 PM
That's like saying that you never spend points in charisma because you can just roleplay it with your natural charisma anyway.

That would be bad roleplaying as well. Even if you're charismatic, and you're playing a character with low Charisma, play them rude and crude. I'm reasonably certain I have more Charisma than my gnoll, (he's got 6), but I RP him as a socially graceless jerk who will not hesitate to voice his opinions (violently if it strikes him as appropriate), even if the scenario doesn't call for it.


It's true, if a character IG is a sociopath with asperger's syndrome the DM will rule the lack of empathy and general emotion accordingly.

Also, I resent the implications of that statement.


You know, good Intimidation is just as hard to roleplay as good Diplomacy.

Evidently I have a natural talent for it, then. That is, if describing in chilling detail the exact process with which I shall evicerate you, all with a monotonously calm tone of voice as if I was describing the weather, counts as good Intimidation.

sofawall
2010-05-27, 10:44 PM
That is, if describing in chilling detail the exact process with which I shall evicerate you, all with a monotonously calm tone of voice as if I was describing the weather, counts as good Intimidation.

I wouldn't really be intimidated, unless you were a big freakin' Ogre or somesuch, and then you could be reciting the Dead Parrot Sketch for all I care, I'm intimidated by your Ogreness, not your threat.

Drakevarg
2010-05-27, 10:45 PM
I wouldn't really be intimidated, unless you were a big freakin' Ogre or somesuch, and then you could be reciting the Dead Parrot Sketch for all I care, I'm intimidated by your Ogreness, not your threat.

Would you be intimidated after I made good with my threat?

Also, I pretty much AM a big freakin' ogre. Or at least as close to such as a human can be expected to get.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 10:45 PM
Evidently I have a natural talent for it, then. That is, if describing in chilling detail the exact process with which I shall evicerate you, all with a monotonously calm tone of voice as if I was describing the weather, counts as good Intimidation.

It depends. For some, it might work. For some, you might need something else. It's...I always found Intimidate-check also represents the ability to figure out what breaks every particular person.

Drakevarg
2010-05-27, 10:47 PM
It depends. For some, it might work. For some, you might need something else. It's...I always found Intimidate-check also represents the ability to figure out what breaks every particular person.

Wouldn't that require the ability to analyze someone's personality, which even with someone who was good at it could take hours, probably longer if they were particularly introverted?

Lev
2010-05-27, 10:47 PM
That would be bad roleplaying as well. Even if you're charismatic, and you're playing a character with low Charisma, play them rude and crude. I'm reasonably certain I have more Charisma than my gnoll, (he's got 6), but I RP him as a socially graceless jerk who will not hesitate to voice his opinions (violently if it strikes him as appropriate), even if the scenario doesn't call for it.



Also, I resent the implications of that statement.



Evidently I have a natural talent for it, then. That is, if describing in chilling detail the exact process with which I shall evicerate you, all with a monotonously calm tone of voice as if I was describing the weather, counts as good Intimidation.
Yes, if you artistically weave your intimidation in RP you should consider letting your character catch up to you by putting ranks in it, or your DM might start to see the growing gap and use the base mechanical to decide for a while.
As far as I see it, the intimidation roll is as much your ability as it is a determination to how big of an effect it is on them, same as a bluff check's determination is partly based on how much information that random guard happens to have had beforehand to consider to weigh against your lie.

sofawall
2010-05-27, 10:47 PM
Would you be intimidated after I made good with my threat?

Also, I pretty much AM a big freakin' ogre. Or at least as close to such as a human can be expected to get.

I would not be intimidated, I would be dead.

Also, intimidation is not at all similar to torture. You intimidate so you do not have to torture.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 10:50 PM
Wouldn't that require the ability to analyze someone's personality, which even with someone who was good at it could take hours, probably longer if they were particularly introverted?

*shrug* Perhaps the ranks represent that you just get a good read on sight. I find the "how" of skill checks is irrelevant; the people in question are a 100 times better at it than any living human will ever be so one merely needs to imagine the general routes of action to figure what exactly happens.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-27, 10:50 PM
I have run many scenes where raw intimidation was a key to the interaction...

A young hero peered under a table in a bar only to come face-to-face with a tiger... This was bad enough... until the Tiger said, in a low, menacing voice, "Run."

The Elfin Archer/Spellcaster starts moving his hands to cast a spell when the sinister old sandcaster mage says, "That better be a Rug you're weaving." Needless to say, the Elf stopped casting right away.

I was playing a Goblin WarMage/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge in a party of Goblins. Thanks to feats and a few well-chosen spells, I quickly became the scariest member of the party. Not because I was able to beat people... just because I was scary!

Drakevarg
2010-05-27, 10:51 PM
Yes, if you artistically weave your intimidation in RP you should consider letting your character catch up to you by putting ranks in it, or your DM might start to see the growing gap and use the base mechanical to decide for a while.

Well, thing is, Intimidate seems to assume alot of subtle psyching people out... y'know, glaring, your hand wandering to your sword, tone of voice, etc. This is probably because most PCs are Good-aligned and don't actually want to cause harm to an innocent bystander. So they just make the bystander THINK that harm is a possiblity, and that solves the whole scenario.

By contrast, my tactic of intimidation doesn't NEED skill. I simply tell them in a calm voice how I intend to hurt them if they don't comply. Then, if they don't comply, I hurt them until they do. It's not psychological warfare, it's honesty combined with brutal sociopathy.


I would not be intimidated, I would be dead.

Also, intimidation is not at all similar to torture. You intimidate so you do not have to torture.

If you died, I'd be doing a piss-poor job at torturing you.

And to quote Firefly:

Mal: Just scare him.
Jayne: Pain is scary.

I've hurt you, and I will continue to hurt you WORSE until I get the information I want. Isn't this intimidation?


*shrug* Perhaps the ranks represent that you just get a good read on sight. I find the "how" of skill checks is irrelevant; the people in question are a 100 times better at it than any living human will ever be so one merely needs to imagine the general routes of action to figure what exactly happens.

Hm. Seems to be a Heroic Fantasy vs. Low Fantasy point of aesthetics. Not gonna go there.

Ozymandias9
2010-05-27, 10:53 PM
Evidently I have a natural talent for it, then. That is, if describing in chilling detail the exact process with which I shall evicerate you, all with a monotonously calm tone of voice as if I was describing the weather, counts as good Intimidation.

IMO, it doesn't. Threats, fear, and intimidation aren't the same thing. Good intimidation is heavily implied, and felt more than though about. It's about making someone believe you are dangerous without actually carry through-- making the "bad cop" come off as unhinged enough that the criminal reacts even though they know how "good cop/bad cop" works.

Don't get me wrong, carrying through with the threat (in part or in whole) is quite an effective option, but it should represent a (rather substantial) circumstance bonus rather than some measure of skill. Some one is substantially more likely to believe you'll cut off their finger if you're a mobster who's already cut off their pinky. The intimidate skill is about how likely it is you can get them to believe you if they've never heard of you before and you've not yet hurt them.

Drakevarg
2010-05-27, 11:08 PM
Don't get me wrong, carrying through with the threat (in part or in whole) is quite an effective option, but it should represent a (rather substantial) circumstance bonus rather than some measure of skill. Some one is substantially more likely to believe you'll cut off their finger if you're a mobster who's already cut off their pinky. The intimidate skill is about how likely it is you can get them to believe you if they've never heard of you before and you've not yet hurt them.

So what, threaten them with a long and detailed list of ways in which you intend to hurt them, make an Intimidate check, if it fails follow through with the first step, make another Intimidate check, then repeat until success?

((I'm guessing at this point it'd be pretty much impossible to convince you guys that I'm actually a pretty nice guy.))

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-27, 11:44 PM
((I'm guessing at this point it'd be pretty much impossible to convince you guys that I'm actually a pretty nice guy.))I'm pretty nice in real life, too, although that doesn't stop my Neutral Evil BlueGoblinTurnedSynad from taking delight in both physical and psychological torture.

And whatever you do, don't mention the Candlejack Effe-.

Drakevarg
2010-05-27, 11:48 PM
And whatever you do, don't mention the Candlejack Effe-.

Eh. More of a Slender Man guy myself. Or as I call him, "blank canvas for my nightmares."

Akal Saris
2010-05-27, 11:49 PM
And to quote Firefly:

Mal: Just scare him.
Jayne: Pain is scary.


For another intimidate check from Jayne:

Jayne: Do you know what the chain of command on this ship is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here!

Drakevarg
2010-05-27, 11:51 PM
For another intimidate check from Jayne:

Jayne: Do you know what the chain of command on this ship is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here!

Well, it doesn't subvert my point. If he hadn't passed out a few seconds later, he'd probably have honestly considered going to get his Chain of Command.

New magic weapon idea, btw.

Lev
2010-05-28, 12:21 AM
By contrast, my tactic of intimidation doesn't NEED skill. I simply tell them in a calm voice how I intend to hurt them if they don't comply. Then, if they don't comply, I hurt them until they do. It's not psychological warfare, it's honesty combined with brutal sociopathy.
You are correct, your tactic isn't to be good at intimidation, it's to take 20.
You point out that you are not good at intimidation yet you are a bully, the difference is that you persevere rather than try and be good at it.

Drakevarg
2010-05-28, 12:23 AM
You are correct, your tactic isn't to be good at intimidation, it's to take 20.
You point out that you are not good at intimidation yet you are a bully, the difference is that you persevere rather than try and be good at it.

Can you even Take 20 on Intimidate checks, by RAW?

Lev
2010-05-28, 12:33 AM
Can you even Take 20 on Intimidate checks, by RAW?
If you have on average 20 mins to hold them against the wall and beat the checks into them, then I don't see why not.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/loopytube/videos/261/

Ozymandias9
2010-05-28, 12:36 AM
So what, threaten them with a long and detailed list of ways in which you intend to hurt them, make an Intimidate check, if it fails follow through with the first step, make another Intimidate check, then repeat until success?

((I'm guessing at this point it'd be pretty much impossible to convince you guys that I'm actually a pretty nice guy.))

More or less: after the first step, you would probably get a circumstance bonus because they don't doubt you. Eventually, you should also get another because their resolve should start to crack in the face of pain and torture.

WorstDMEver
2010-05-28, 02:27 AM
Ok - I'm going to take a shot at this.

If your character doesn't have ranks in Intimidate, it shouldn't make much difference how you roleplay his intimidation attempt. Just like it doesn't make much difference how you roleplay your attempt to lift a huge portcullis. Your character has different skills than you do. The skill ranks you choose for your character define his or her in-game abilities to perform certain tasks. This is important for game mechanics.

Good roleplay is important. I cannot stress this enough. However, a character with no skill ranks in Intimidate isn't going to be very intimidating. I usually allow a physical comparison to modify an Intimidate check where there is a wild disparity between the characters in question - say a tall fighter with high Con and Str towering over a short and frail librarian with low Con and Str. But it's a circumstance bonus to the skill, backed by good roleplay. Roleplay can't be allowed to override the rules just like rules can't be allowed to stifle roleplay.

I don't care how well you try to roleplay it, you're not talking the lead villain into just giving you his treasure and going away to become a paladin. It isn't happening. And you're not getting that no matter what your Intimidate or Diplomacy is. However, a successful Intimidate check at the start of combat can give a party a round or two where their enemy is shaken....

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-28, 02:31 AM
Remember the "To the Pain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoSHmVkjmuA&feature=related)" speech in Princess Bride?

That's Intimidation.

WorstDMEver
2010-05-28, 08:41 AM
Remember the "To the Pain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoSHmVkjmuA&feature=related)" speech in Princess Bride?

That's Intimidation.

Stop that - I almost woke up the kids laughing!

Sniff, sniff ... "Iocaine powder, I'd stake my life on it."

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-28, 11:02 AM
Psyco, Calm level headed threats can be very intimidating however think about the best intimidate check you've even seen in a movie. Now picture Peter Griffon reading from the same script. That's the disparity between having and not having intimidate ranks.

Sure, your DM may very well grant a bonus and a recheck when you start hurting them but, if you don't have Cha and/or intimidate ranks they may still not respond well. They may get angry instead of scared or they may think that you've gone as far as you're willing to go and that any further threats are bluffing.

Also without ranks in intimidate and/or torture your character shouldn't be good at it and he may very well accidentily kill someone before he or you the player want him to. Just because you know good torture techniques doesn't mean your character does.