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View Full Version : [3.5] A Ship Captain that Doesn't Fail?



balistafreak
2010-05-27, 09:05 PM
Okay, here's the beef. I need some way to make a character a ship captain that doesn't involve hilarious (opportunity) loss of actual class features off of the ship and still achievable at ECL 10 or below. (Above that, you have enough WBL to simply throw money at this sort of problem until it goes away. :smalltongue:)

I've seen a few "leader" type Prestige classes, but they all have the "slight" problem of, well, absolutely failing when it comes to leaving the ship. No other combat abilities, no casting, nothing.

Taking Leadership to acquire a first mate and crew is a given already.

Is the most efficent way to do it simply to not bother with taking levels in a class? I'd rather not put all the losses on the first mate, because I kind of want to use them both, and moving the class onto the firstmate doesn't solve my problem.

If so, what feat selection is really needed to make a ship captain-archetype fly? Skills are easy enough (max out everything relevant, duh), and I suppose WBL is relatively self-explanatory with buying and pimping out the ship in question, whether it sails on water or through the air. What feats really enable one to create a competent leader?

Hendel
2010-05-27, 09:20 PM
I have a Rogue/Swashbuckler/Duelist who took leadership and ranks in Profession: Sailor and he bought himself a ship with a crew. He spent some of his gold in the creation of the ship to make it fast and more durable. The party members actually began chipping in large sums of gold for the upkeep and we always had a mobile platform from which to adventure.

Off the ship he does pretty good damage (up to about 11d6 plus 28 or so per hit where he can use his critical) and his AC is about 66 at 20th level. His to hit isn't great but he now has access to Wraithstrike through some items so his can strike as a touch attach a lot of the time.

His cohort is the first mate and he stays on the ship all the time with the rest of the crew. That works out well now as he is a 17th level cohort and I do not plan on taking Epic Leadership to get him to a higher level.

I would have to say my "captain" is as successful off the ship as on the ship.

balistafreak
2010-05-27, 09:22 PM
His cohort is the first mate and he stays on the ship all the time with the rest of the crew.

... you're not helping! :smalltongue:

It sounds like your character doesn't have any mechanical benefits to being the captain other than the maxed ranks in Profession. Which is fine for many games, especially if the ship doesn't enter the combat equation, but...

... well, read the OP.

crazedloon
2010-05-27, 09:24 PM
artificer seems right, they have a lot of skills which can be put to good use on a ship. One of their higher stats tends to be Charisma which lends it self well to the position of Captain. They can provide magical tools to buff the ship and arm the ship as well as help the crew. And when you get on land you are still an artificer

sofawall
2010-05-27, 09:25 PM
Dread Pirate, Complete Adventurer?

Hendel
2010-05-27, 09:30 PM
... you're not helping! :smalltongue:

It sounds like your character doesn't have any mechanical benefits to being the captain other than the maxed ranks in Profession. Which is fine for many games, especially if the ship doesn't enter the combat equation, but...

... well, read the OP.

Sorry, I did read the OP and I assumed that you meant the battles and tatics at sea were not all on the first mate. I run every thing myself at sea and in naval combat. I give all the direction. The mechanics of a naval battle in game are not that difficult that what I have does not suffice.

The first mate only takes care of things when I go into a dungeon or whatever. Anyway, just trying to help...

PS I looked at the Dread Pirate too, but it really didn't give me enough off the ship to go with it.

sofawall
2010-05-27, 09:34 PM
PS I looked at the Dread Pirate too, but it really didn't give me enough off the ship to go with it.

wut. Seriously?

Lysander
2010-05-27, 09:39 PM
Bard is actually pretty effective. Your music gives bonuses to your crew, your charisma makes you good at trade and negotiation, you have bardic lore to gain knowledge about ports, islands, and sea monsters, you have a handful of useful spells, particularly illusion spells which you can use to mislead and frighten off enemy ships, and you get tons of skill points for Profession Sailor, Swim, and other skills.

Scipio
2010-05-27, 09:46 PM
I am playing a ship captain in the Savage Tide adventure path. My gestalt build is Paladin of Freedom/Pious Templar (temple is the ship) on one side, and Bard/Legendary Captain on the other. You are right about the captain side of things. It is a difficult balance, since there is little crossover outside of ship stuff. I decided on 3 levels of LC, since you get the Great Captain feat, +4 bonus on advantage checks, +2 to leadership and the best part of the class is Luck of the Wind 1/day.

You didn't mention LC, so I am unsure if you are familiar with the class or Stormwrack (the sourcebook). Luck of the Wind allows you to reroll a failed attack, save, skill check or ability check. My feeling is that most naval combats involve the party more than the ships, but I can reliably keep the "advantage" in naval combat, and I am not only good on ships. A 4 level dip makes your ship 20% faster, so that isn't bad either. The class drops off quite a bit after that, and Practiced Spellcaster covers 4 levels. Great Captain allows you to command your ship as a move action, so you are free to cast spells or whatever you need to do. Leadership is required to go into the class, and my first mate cohort is never stuck running the ship.

If you want to be a captain, you are sacrificing other areas. A 3 level dip to get Luck of the Wind is worth it IMO. Even in a non-gestalt, a bard captain is a great party support guy.

Hope that helps.

balistafreak
2010-05-27, 10:12 PM
wut. Seriously?

Did some pillaging of books.

Yeah, Dread Pirate is mechanically inferior to Legendary Captain in half a dozen ways. Probably more. Well, that's not entirely true: Dread Pirate was built more in mind of a hybrid of adventuring and sailing, while Legendary Captain focuses almost entirely on the sailing aspect. Dread Pirate spreads itself too thin in my opinion to be a class worth taking, while Legendary Captain has the problem of focusing itself too much in one area.

Basically, neither class has a power level high enough compared to something like, say, an Artificer. :smallcool:

That being said, I'm starting to feel Wilder7 (or something)/Legendary Captain2. The 3rd level of Legendary Captain just doesn't add enough - a reroll that you can't know the result of beforehand is weak, as opposed to a reroll of a known failed roll. Uncanny Navigation will be of little use if I'm on an airship (which is seeming more and more like a good idea), so yeah. A level of a manifesting class vs a relatively dead level? Hmmm.

Why Wilder? Why, I'm going to use the dread Psicrystal Leadership trick to get myself a second cohort, because while one first mate is good, a first mate and a master-at-arms is even better. And of all the psionic classes, Wilder is the only one that uses Charisma.

Are there feats for improving your Aid Another checks? I feel like there are some for combat related Aid Anothers, but but for the skill-based ones that will come up with Great Captain.

Also, how would you stat the crew out? They all have maxed ranks in their respective professions, but I'm tempted to also make them a shock-troop of Warblades or something. :smallamused:

Akal Saris
2010-05-27, 10:21 PM
I'd say wizard makes the best class for a captain overall, since so many wizards spells can help in naval combat, especially including the spells from Stormwrack like Submerge Ship, Detect Ship, Favorable Wind, Depthsurge, etc.

As for mechanical stuff, leadership is alright, though you could probably just spend 50g-200g and get a bunch of level 1 sailors/pirates and use diplomacy or intimidate to keep them in check. Followers are dirt cheap in 3.5, not really worth the feat unless you want the cohort as well. Though cohorts are always pretty broken if allowed.

A possible good feat would be Landlord, from the Stronghold Builder's Guide. Make the ship your stronghold, and use your free 25,000g (or more) to buy cool equipment for the ship.

What else...sanctum spell feat (make the ship your sanctum), tricks with acorn of travel + an oak tree on your ship, maybe a few other options.

As a sidenote, legendary captain is cool, but its only ability that is useful off a ship is the 3rd/7th luck reroll out of 10 levels. Other than those, off a ship basically you're a cleric chassis, but without spells .

Voldecanter
2010-05-27, 10:33 PM
Moongoose Publishing made a series of "Power Classes" , to give new taste or tricks to old classes , such as the Hedge Wizard , and the Alchemist ...not to mention the Pirate .


Basically , Your any kind of pirate you want to be ......and if you take this class it's Ship Included !

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-27, 11:03 PM
Interestingly, Incarnates make really good ship captains. Ranks in Profession (sailor) combined with the Sailor Bracers soulmeld can pump your checks into the stratosphere.

When you're not on your boat, you can simply shape soulmelds that will be useful for the situation at hand. A Chaos incarnate would be good for a wanderer or explorer, or perhaps an Evil Incarnate for a fearsome pirate. Even a Good or Law Incarnate could pull it off.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 11:07 PM
Equally amusingly, Druids are amazing captains. Wis-based with Profession leads to hilarity, and they...well, I really don't need to introduce you to the benefits of having a seaful of help and controlling winds whenever sailing, do I?

Fax Celestis
2010-05-27, 11:16 PM
Are there feats for improving your Aid Another checks? I feel like there are some for combat related Aid Anothers, but but for the skill-based ones that will come up with Great Captain.

Check Races of Destiny and PHB-II, I think there's one or two in there.

Deth Muncher
2010-05-27, 11:17 PM
You don't need any fancy ship-related classes. You want a multiclassed Rogue/Sorceror. Why? My friend played one in a campaign, and eventually built up a fleet so large he got referred to as Admiral Crunch. :D Here's how he did it. By being a Rogue, he could sneak around. He would get onto a pirate's ship, sneak up, kill the captain and the ship was his (y'know, after having us clear out the pirates that didn't want to join us). Other tactics he used were making a Greater Image of...oh, Heironeous I think to intimidate the pirates, and using Slippers of Spiderwalk to climb the side of a ship and gank people from the side.

In retrospect, Bard/Rogue or Beguiler/Rogue would have worked better, but Bard/Rogue gives you the benefit of being able to sing sea shanties. As well as being a Bard, you've got the bonus of having lots of Knowledge, as every pirate should, and you can do the aforementioned Image Of [Insert God/Thing Here] to scare pansies off of their ships to "reclaim" them.

EDIT: Also, with all those skillpoints you'll be getting, throw max into Profession: Sailor, Balance Craft: Woodworking (to fix your ship) and Craft: Clothwork (so you can repair your flag/clothing) and you'll be golden.

EDIT EDIT: Moar ideas: Using illusion spells from Bard/Sorceror/Beguiler to cloak your ship to look like a dinghy. Also, being a sneakster, you can take a Bag of Holding and get belowdecks, locate their treasure store (they are pirates, after all) and take it. Or any other supplies.

Scipio
2010-05-27, 11:18 PM
Did some pillaging of books.
The 3rd level of Legendary Captain just doesn't add enough - a reroll that you can't know the result of beforehand is weak, as opposed to a reroll of a known failed roll.

I had actually forgotten the way the wording is on LotW. The first sentence says you are rerolling a failed roll (like Dread Pirate), and the next sentence says you have to choose to reroll prior to knowing the result. My DM ruled that the Legendary Captain's ability is the same as the Dread Pirate. Since the LC clearly comes from the DP, it makes sense, but you would have to convince your DM. If it didn't work that way, I would not go into the class. I do like how they split the Dread Pirate out into two classes in Stormwrack. The other class being Scarlet Corsair, and it is pretty cool (not for a captain though).


Also, how would you stat the crew out? They all have maxed ranks in their respective professions, but I'm tempted to also make them a shock-troop of Warblades or something. :smallamused:

Assuming you are only using your leadership followers as crew, there are not a lot of options with NPC classes. I went with a crew of experts. Even at the max non-epic leadership score your followers levels are only up to 7th. Our party does all the heavy lifting, and I try to keep my crew out of harm's way. A difficult task indeed when sailing around the Isle of Dread.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-27, 11:26 PM
Also don't forget the power of passwall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passwall.htm) as a weapon of naval warfare.

Scipio
2010-05-27, 11:30 PM
Also don't forget the power of passwall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passwall.htm) as a weapon of naval warfare.

In our big naval battle, the wizard put up a Wall of Force at about deck level. It tore through the rigging and masts. Then the druid reversed the currents and sent the ship back through the wall.

For my part (as the bard), I found Confusion to be a fantastic spell. A bunch of low level sailors did not have a chance. The medium range is great as well.

Deth Muncher
2010-05-27, 11:31 PM
Also don't forget the power of passwall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passwall.htm) as a weapon of naval warfare.

...

:smalleek:

Holy crap. That would do what I think it does, doesn't it.

Hendel
2010-05-27, 11:48 PM
...

:smalleek:

Holy crap. That would do what I think it does, doesn't it.

Yeah, but with a range of touch, you would have to get real close or use Reach Spell from not much farther away.

I guess the consensus is that the "pirate specific" classes are okay but nowhere near necessary. Once more, I have been very successful with the Rogue/Swashbuckler/Duelist. Of course we have all types in the party, including casters and such to keep us going in times of need.

If your DM will allow items from the Arms and Armament (3.0 book), there are some nice magical sales and upgrades that you can make to a ship to make it faster. Then again, it sounds like you are going with the airship, so I would look to the Eberron rules for more juicy stuff on that.

Hendel
2010-05-27, 11:50 PM
wut. Seriously?

Actually, Yes!

Krazddndfreek
2010-05-27, 11:54 PM
Dread Pirate, Complete Adventurer?

A straight fighter PrCing into Dread Pirate would get weaker. So would a Rogue. The class is horrible.

Akal Saris
2010-05-27, 11:58 PM
It does require touch, but yeah, Passwall will end a ship. My PCs went with the slightly less impressive method of Water Breathing + Freedom of Movement + Adamantine Greatsword. Like a can opener from underneath...

Seriously, ships and castles are 2 things that just don't work very well in a fantasy battle...

Deth Muncher
2010-05-28, 12:01 AM
It does require touch, but yeah, Passwall will end a ship. My PCs went with the slightly less impressive method of Water Breathing + Freedom of Movement + Adamantine Greatsword. Like a can opener from underneath...

Seriously, ships and castles are 2 things that just don't work very well in a fantasy battle...

Heh. Lollarious. Other effective method: Taking the Iron Door patch off of a Robe of Useful Items and smashing a hole through the ship with it. Aforementioned Rogue/Sorceror did this, but thankfully these were Sand Pirates, so the ship just stayed put until we fixed it. He also killed the Cap'n of the ship with this attack. Best. Sneak Attack. Ever.

QuantumSteve
2010-05-28, 12:09 AM
It does require touch, but yeah, Passwall will end a ship. My PCs went with the slightly less impressive method of Water Breathing + Freedom of Movement + Adamantine Greatsword. Like a can opener from underneath...

Seriously, ships and castles are 2 things that just don't work very well in a fantasy battle...

Wouldn't Freedom of Movement cause you to sink like a rock? I mean, if you can't push against the water, how can you swim?

Thespianus
2010-05-28, 12:11 AM
It does require touch, but yeah, Passwall will end a ship. (...)
Seriously, ships and castles are 2 things that just don't work very well in a fantasy battle...
I'd say that ships would get modified in a fantasy battle setting. If you line the outside of the hull with a thin coat of mithral, you're immune to the passwall problem. Ok, it might raise the price of the ship a little, but for important vessels, this should rapidly become standard in a passwall-enabled universe. ;)

Also, I'm guessing that abjuration-spells dedicated to protecting ships would be quite common. ;) In fact, I find it odd that there are no (or very few) such spells in Stormwrack.

Hendel
2010-05-28, 12:17 AM
Wouldn't Freedom of Movement cause you to sink like a rock? I mean, if you can't push against the water, how can you swim?

Fly!

Also, I have a bunch of items that nobody normally takes.

Feather Token: Anchor (only 50gp!!) - When you absolutely, positively have to get away from the bad guy's boat. Applied as mentioned above, Free Action, Water Breathing, Invisibilty, and Fly!! Seems to work every time and never gets old.

Eloel
2010-05-28, 12:21 AM
Ask any sailor/captain, even in modern ships.
They'll say the biggest enemy/best ally is nature.
Now, take a class that CONTROLS said nature.

Druids make the best captains...

Deth Muncher
2010-05-28, 12:26 AM
Ask any sailor/captain, even in modern ships.
They'll say the biggest enemy/best ally is nature.
Now, take a class that CONTROLS said nature.

Druids make the best captains...

Stormwrack (better known round these parts as "It's Wet Outside") has several casting PrCs based on just this.

Safety Sword
2010-05-28, 12:37 AM
Wouldn't Freedom of Movement cause you to sink like a rock? I mean, if you can't push against the water, how can you swim?

Please... let's not get into Freedom of Movement being and anti-friction device debate... again!

It's magic.

QuantumSteve
2010-05-28, 02:13 AM
Wouldn't Freedom of Movement cause you to sink like a rock? I mean, if you can't push against the water, how can you swim?

Fly!


W00t! Problem solved.:smallbiggrin: