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View Full Version : Non-HacknSlash duungeon? 3.5



Froogleyboy
2010-05-27, 09:18 PM
Hey, guys, I'm starting a dungeoneering campaign and, to put it simply, I hate games that are just hack-n-slash, so how can I keep my game from simply being:
Enter dungeon
Kill the monsters
Take the treasure

balistafreak
2010-05-27, 09:20 PM
Traps.

Lots of traps.

Really creative traps, something your players have to talk and RP their way through, not roll through.

Really evil traps.

Something like the original Tomb of Horrors, without the options to roll through most of the traps.

*coughsphereofannihilationinthestatue'smouthcough*

Emmerask
2010-05-27, 09:32 PM
puzzles, riddles :smallwink:

Balain
2010-05-27, 09:33 PM
Traps is a good one. If you look at old merp stuff. In Moria there were traps that the only way to free the person that set off the trap was to find the release that was 8 levels above or below the trap. Which got nasty when the person was drowning or stuck in a vat of acid.

Why are they in the dungeon? Why was the dungeon even made in the first place? Are there other adventurers in the dungeon? Intelligent monsters that will stop and talk to them before attacking? Depends on the group, but riddles works well too. Have chests that you need to answer a riddle to open it.

A friend of mine ran a campaign with these chests. They all contained spell scrolls. The wizard was the only one allowed to open the chest. Each chest had a number of tumblers equal to the number of letters in the answer. Each tumbler had a - z. The wizard had 60 seconds to answer the riddle correctly. If not his spell scroll was destroyed. The non-wizards would right their answers and if they got it right they would get bouns xp.

Lysander
2010-05-27, 09:47 PM
Make monsters that can't be killed without creative tactics. For example, have a giant monster in an unstable area of the cave. If they can collapse a chamber on it the monster can stopped, but otherwise they're likely to lose.

Lapak
2010-05-27, 10:02 PM
One of the simplest classic things you can do to keep players mildly confused in a traditional dungeon-exploration without turning the thing into an outright labyrinth is to include nonstandard level transitions. Whether they're going into the ground or climbing a tower, have certain floors be divided such that there are multiple non-connected sections or have gradual ramps or magical doorways cause them to change levels without easily recognizing it.

Something like
1 goes down to 2A or 2B
2A goes down to 3A or all the way to 4A
2B dead ends
3A dead ends
4A goes UP to 3B
3B goes down to 4B
4B goes down to 5

If your players really are into exploration as much as combat, it can be pretty satisfying to realize something like 'ah, we have to go back up a different stair in order to find the way further down.' Going back to the second floor and realizing that you're not where you thought you were is a pretty good 'what the heck?' moment for people who haven't dealt with it before. You can still have combat, and traps (as other people have suggested) are another great resource, but having the layout of wherever they are be non-obvious is a good tool as well.

Endarire
2010-05-27, 10:47 PM
Tomb of Horrors +1.

Now in 3.5 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a).

Froogleyboy
2010-05-27, 11:15 PM
I don't wana kill off my players either. For half the group, this is there first time ever playing

Anxe
2010-05-28, 01:37 AM
Why are they entering the dungeon? That's the first thing that should be changing for every dungeon they go into.

What is the climactic battle of the dungeon? Is it on a spiderweb, in cramped tunnels, in a windy place, or over a pool of lava. This can also change every time.

Is there another group of adventurers in the dungeon with them? This can creep the **** out of them.

Is the map of the dungeon static? The dungeon map doesn't have to be static. Rooms could move around. Magic exists in D&D after all.

Separate them.

Another_Poet
2010-05-28, 02:37 AM
If your players want a not-so-hacknslash-game, then have creative dungeon factions and monsters that aren't what they seem. The goblins are innocent, for example, and at the mercy of the kuo-toa deeper in the dungeon. Or one group of goblins is the standard raid-and-slaughter while another is trying to build a real civilization for themselves and even hoping to trade goods with the nearby human town.

Factions came make dungeons (or other adventures) far more interesting.

Be warned, however, if your players aren't on board with this "not so hack-n-slash" thing, they will just slaughter all the factions as soon as they meet them and never even learn your beautifully crafted story of intrigue and goblins-turned-good.

Alternately, run a West Marches (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/) style game. You'll see a lot more problem solving and organizing from the players, and they'll be much more invested in the world.

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-28, 03:39 AM
A well made dungeon should make sense. This means no random dungeon monsters. No green yello :smalltongue: right between two orcs... I would prefer a natural cave system with occasional large halls, pathways widened to fit whoever lives there if it is a sentient species, otherwise just try to figure out the pecking order of things and make a coherent random table.

Have a number of well thought-out encounters, a lot of food storage / weapon storage / sleeping chambers / common areas etc. No megasuperdeathtraps unless it somehow can be justified (the shaman's special luggage). Also try to have dialog written if possible, and above all give your PCs a purpose for being there other than !XP!

Eldan
2010-05-28, 03:47 AM
I second factions.


Basically: take any dungeon. It doesn't even matter which one. Take a look at the first room.
Then begin asking questions. Why are the monsters there? What are they doing before the PCs enter? What do they think of the other monsters in the same dungeon? Why are they fighting the PCs?

Say, the room contains two goblins.
Why are these two standing here? Are they just standing around all day silently waiting for the PCs so they can ambush them? Couldn't they be playing dice with knuckle bones? Perhaps they are brothers? Perhaps one of them is really afraid of the terribly huge human warriors coming to kill them? Are they scared of the huge Ogre in room 17? Or is the ogre actually a pretty nice guy, a little thick, but funny when he has a few drinks in him?

Now, the PCs sneak up and here a conversation in gobbish they don't understand. They kick down the door, barge in. One of the two goblins just stares at them in disbelief, drops a few dice. The other grabs his spear and tries to hold the PCs back, telling his scared brother to run and hide.

And so on. Give every monster a little quirk, which may or may not show up. Think about how they interact when the PCs aren't around. Add some random little objects to the dungeon. A scrap of leather with a drawing on it. A bone amulet.

AvatarZero
2010-05-28, 06:05 AM
Make monsters that can't be killed without creative tactics. For example, have a giant monster in an unstable area of the cave. If they can collapse a chamber on it the monster can stopped, but otherwise they're likely to lose.

I like this one. It will take some time, but if you get generous with Knowledge checks to identify monsters (let players take 10) you should be able to convey which fights can't be won. You could also use some good old DBZ-style oneupmanship. "You know that ogre you guys were having trouble with? This thing just killed six. It's not injured."

Another option for weaning players away from kick-in-the-door style play is gradually making encounters less discrete. The first fight of the day is just a fight. The second fight has enemies in the next room, and you can hear them react if you make too much noise. The third time the players are noisy, the enemies in the next room will have fortified (kicked over tables for cover, already have their weapons drawn, readied actions to shoot whoever comes through the door). If you want to get really nasty, have the next encounter join in with the first one.

Don't forget to make alternative tactics viable while you're making conventional tactics ineffective. A series of closed doors with enemies directly behind them doesn't really leave the players options that aren't a straight fight. Wide open spaces, opportunities for ambushes and stealthy observation of enemies, alternative routes...

Finally, and this is probably most important if you want your players to avoid fights. Assure them that they'll get the same xp for successfully evading a fight as for massacring one. Assure them that they won't miss out on loot by not killing everything they see. Otherwise, by making fights tougher, you'll encourage your players to be more violent to power themselves up.

Amphetryon
2010-05-28, 06:44 AM
Have a refugee from the dungeon show up early, and need the PC's help in rescuing the refugee's spouse, who has been imprisoned within the dungeon. They'll need to guard the refugee and sneak around the inhabitants of the dungeon as well as free the prisoner, without setting off all the alarms.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-28, 10:01 AM
Puzzels!
But not too dificult cause your new players will get frustrated. i had a player that was REALLY REALLY good at math once so i stuck a 16 square sudoku into the game as a combination lock in a dugeon. I gave him a certain number of the answers based on their dicipher script+disable device role. It was funny and the who group was all hovering over his shoulder going "no put that there!" "no that doesnt add right that has to be over there!". much fun was had by all. Be careful though, tailor it to your groups abilities.

Mix puzzels with other things like Social encounters. for example the good aligned monster thats trapped and would appreciate help out of said dungeon.

WorstDMEver
2010-05-28, 12:31 PM
Kill them all -

Then have them find their way back.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-28, 01:03 PM
Diplomatic encounters. Yes, in a dungeon. The dungeon is populated by several warring factions, and the PCs can manipulate them one against the other.

Lapak
2010-05-28, 01:21 PM
Finally, and this is probably most important if you want your players to avoid fights. Assure them that they'll get the same xp for successfully evading a fight as for massacring one. Assure them that they won't miss out on loot by not killing everything they see. Otherwise, by making fights tougher, you'll encourage your players to be more violent to power themselves up.If you want to take this to the extreme...

(Note: I have fiddled with ideas for this, but not actually tried it)

Go with a completely non-combat XP structure: story rewards only, or the OD&D-style "value of treasure acquired = XP" rule, or give experience for successfully exploring and charting parts of the environment. Provide plenty of clear opportunities to collect XP in your new structure, whatever it may be. Increase the CR of every fight by 2.

Your players will find ways of avoiding all but the important fights pretty quickly, I'll bet, whether they are hard-core roleplayers or dedicated strategists. Monsters become obstacles/traps rather than automatically being combat-starters.

Emmerask
2010-05-28, 01:39 PM
Go with a completely non-combat XP structure: story rewards only, or the OD&D-style "value of treasure acquired = XP" rule,

I could be wrong but I seem to remember that it was only the rogue getting this 1gp = 1 xp ^^

WorstDMEver
2010-05-28, 01:56 PM
AD&D (or Ancient Dungeons and Dragons) gave a direct experience point reward for all treasure. Magic items had a gold value and an experience value. Personally, I think that this is the strongest change 3.x made to D&D. The old system had a fixed experience value for every item or creature. I don't recall there being a reward for disabling traps or opening locks though - so maybe there was no real incentive for the rogue (sorry, 'thief') to pick a potentially trapped lock....

And on the experience reward topic, if you give the same reward regardless of how the players overcome the obstacle then sneaking past the guards is worth as much as defeating them (unless they fail to get by on the way out, in which case, they actually defeat them and still get the same reward).

In a resource-poor campaign this will teach the players to be more diplomatic or stealthy when possible to better conserve their potions and spells.

JohnnyCancer
2010-05-28, 02:56 PM
Rival, non-hostile adventurers could spice things up too.

WorstDMEver
2010-05-28, 04:10 PM
Rival, non-hostile adventurers could spice things up too.

Especially if they really are rivals - after the same goal. I did this in a NWN module, just using the rival party as a goad. It could be cool to let the rivals capture the prize to see if the players will try to take it from them or congratulate them and help them to get back out.