Fixing the Fighter

[Anithexx]

I've been strolling through the threads and noticed a common problem popping up, so I thought I would try my hand at it. The most common fix that I agreed with was fighters needed more skill points but every time I saw someone increase a fighters skill points they went on to add or change a whole slew of features of the fighter so here is what I purpose as a fix.

Class Skills
Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (Nature), listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Use Rope.

Skill points 6+int (x4 at 1st level)

Also changing the name "bonus feat" to "fighter feat" and granting additional bonus feats called "general" feats at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20th.

I believe that this will make a fighter more versatile and by making the fighter more versatile it becomes more powerful without unbalancing everything else.
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(If I should have posted this somewhere else or made some other newbie mistake please let me know seeing as this is my very first post on any forum)

[Eldan]

As many fixes, this alone doesn't go far enough.

More feats has never been the fighter's problem. In fact, if you look at only core, he can even take more feats than there are in the book. (Useful ones, anyway).

The problem is that mages can fly and make themselves invisible by level 5. Both of these things make it very difficult for a fighter to deal with them. By the level a wizard gets forcecage, the fighter could just as well give up.

The fighter's problem is on the one hand that he can't deal with any of the powerful effects available in late game, on the other hand that he can't do anything interesting himself.

More feats means he gets higher numbers in damage, or to hit, or in combat maneuvers. But he still can't deal with an invisible flying demon, or an incorporeal enemy. At least not without a caster specifically buffing him to do it. And in that case, the fighter isn't a hero anymore, he's a device for the caster to use.

[Eldan]

The problem, of course, being that the wizard can also search for traps better than the rogue.

And a high level wizard? Even with core spells, he doesn't even have to be on the plane he's adventuring on, thanks to Astral Projection.

The Fighter's problem is that while he has a lot of hit points and a large armour class, these just don't help him against any of the problems, if the game is moderately optimized. In a game after about level 10, it often doesn't matter how much damage you can deal, because you need to find and reach the enemy first. And there's a dozen low-level spells the wizard can use which the fighter has no defense against.

In the end, this has two effects, which together conspire to make the fighter all but useless in mid- to high-level play: he can be shut down easily, and he can be safely ignored even before that, because he rarely has a chance to hurt a lot of enemies.

Now, of course, the fighter shouldn't be able to do everything. No one is saying that. The problem is that, the way D&D is written right now, the fighter will have problems doing anything.

All I'm writing here is meant to be understood in somewhat optimized play. If you fight enemies on the ground with a wizard specialized in blasting and a fighter specialized in hitting enemies, then, by all means, use your fix. It will work just fine. However, there is the problem that, even without optimizing much, the druid player is himself a better tank than the fighter, and has a secondary tank, his companion, along. With two spells, a cleric can absolutely pound a fighter, while also being a caster. The wizard can be on a different plane, sending his projection to cast a forcecage or solid fog on the fighter, then proceeding to fight the rest of the party.

[Anithexx]

So what you saying is in your opinion a fight need more maneuverability?

Well how would you go about fixing a fighters mobility?

As a side note I'm not sure if you are taking in magical equipment into consideration. While a fighter can find several magical items that can allow them to increase their combat effectiveness a wizards most common magical enhancements allow them to adventure longer (such as scrolls, wands, and staffs) not increase their damage potential or at least not as constantly. A +1 flaming sword (8,000 gp) can grant a fighter between 2-7 damage per hit not including feats to augment the sword while a a rod of lesser empower (9000 gp) can only empower a level 1-3 spell 3 times a day at the time where this will be the character main piece of equipment a fighter would most likely see more use out of their sword than a wizard their rod.

[ZeroNumerous]

Fortunately WotC already fixed 3.x fighter: They renamed it Warblade. Unfortunately he's still falling short of bothering a particularly well prepared wizard, but that's the fault of the magic system rather than the Fighter.

EDIT:
a rod of lesser empower (9000 gp)

Why would any wizard ever buy that rod? Extend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicExtend) is 1/3rd the cost and several orders of magnitude more versatile.

[Eldan]

Yes, if you give a fighter, say, Wings of Flying and a short-range teleport item (these are in the Magic Item Compendium), then he becomes much more dangerous, true.

The problem with that is that the fighter was meant to represent the archetype of the mundane warrior. However, with this, the problem becomes that he now is more or less a minor caster, via items, in order to take down casters.

Again, you mention damage as a way to improve the fighter, i.e. flaming swords. Now, flaming swords are nice and have a lot of style, no doubt. The problem, however, is that at higher levels, dangerous fights aren't won by damage. They are won by taking away the enemy's ability to fight back.

See, you have two actions per turn. Your options are Hit him with my sword and Use Hold Person. One of them takes away 10% of the enemy's HP. The other kills him dead when he's effected. Both can be resisted, of course. But one of them is easier to resist than the other.

[Anithexx]

WotC? Are you talking about "Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords"? if so While I like the book I'm not ready to give in and say the fighter is obsolete lets us this.

[Ashtagon]

So what you saying is in your opinion a fight need more maneuverability?

Well how would you go about fixing a fighters mobility?

As a side note I'm not sure if you are taking in magical equipment into consideration. While a fighter can find several magical items that can allow them to increase their combat effectiveness a wizards most common magical enhancements allow them to adventure longer (such as scrolls, wands, and staffs) not increase their damage potential or at least not as constantly. A +1 flaming sword (8,000 gp) can grant a fighter between 2-7 damage per hit not including feats to augment the sword while a a rod of lesser empower (9000 gp) can only empower a level 1-3 spell 3 times a day at the time where this will be the character main piece of equipment a fighter would most likely see more use out of their sword than a wizard their rod.

Any item a fighter can find and use is an item almost any other class can find and use too. Swords aren't something a wizard can use, true, but the flametongue ability you cite is probably one of the worst examples of a magical power that fixes the problem. A fighter with flametongue swords can still be shut down just as easily as one without.

Plus of course, a wizard doesn't even need any magical items to effectively shut down the fighter, whereas the fighter can't even begin to compete with a non-optimised wizard without them.

[Eldan]

If your goal is to actually balance D&D, which one the one hand might not be necessary (our group never really had problems with it), and on the other hand might be next to impossible, you would have to start with more or less completely redoing the magic system. And not just the wizard class, rewriting about half of all spells. As long as the wizard gets things like Prismatic Sphere or Wall of Force, and the fighter gets Weapon Focus in exchange, they will never be on the same level.

And yes, in a battle between a naked level 20 wizard with all his spells prepared and a level 20 fighter with double WBL (who didn't spend all his money on emulating magic, of course, but actual weapons, armour and utility items), I'd still assume a win for the wizard. Even without obviously broken stuff.

[Anithexx]

As hold person is a 3rd level spell the target would get 5 saves through out the duration and the spell can only target a certain group type. While a fighter's feats and items would allow constant damage (it seems to me like the discussion is a debate of constant effect against risk and reward).

I'm not trying to nitpick I'm just trying to find out where a fighter needs to be altered the most so that it can be properly balanced.

[Anithexx]

I don't think it is possible to balance the fighter by saying to beat a wizard he needs these skills that more to deal with building a mage-hunter prestige class. What I think needs to be done to balance a fighter is to look at other classes and try to decide if that class can compare in it's chosen field as well as other classes in theirs.

[Eldan]

Yes. However, if one failed saving throw means that you'll be coup-de-grâced next, it becomes quite deadly.

Okay, then. What the fighter needs in my opinion (see also the quite long Fighter Manifesto thread):

-Unique class features. The fighter, as he is now, gets nothing except feats. And everyone can take feats. If there were really long feat chains (say, 7+ and worth it), okay. But as it stands, currently, after taking five feats for one combat style, the fighter starts to learn a new one from scratch. Also, most feats give a +1 or +2 to something, which is rarely worth it. Feats should give new abilities, not numerical bonuses. Look at what casters get: metamagic.

-Related to the above: combat options. For most fighters, combat boils down to "hit him", "hit him harder" or "hit him and try to throw him to the ground."

-Defences. If the fighter is intended to be walking tank, make him a walking tank. There are too many ways to kill someone other than damage.

[Anithexx]

So looking at class features vr. feats why not extend the fighter only feats list. Right now Fighters only have what 4 "fighter only" feats in the Player's Guide and how many more in others?

What type of fighter only feats would make a fighter more outstanding without turning the fighters into a different class all together?

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Your example of Hold person implies that there are more than one person one to cast the spell and another to coup-de-grace 'em. unless the wizard is doing it themselves in which case can you coup-de-grace with a spell? otherwise it should be fairly easy for a fighter to make his for save.

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Out of curiosity why does everyone seem so concerned with Fighters vr. Wizards? Wouldn't a Rouge be a better choice to go toe to toe with a wizard?

[Ashtagon]

Up to about 8th level or so, fighters can still (barely) hold their own. It's in the high-level stakes that fighters fall flat. You're looking at a level range where the disparity isn't so significant. Heck, 5th level is still inside the e6 level range.

[Samurai Jill]

*sighs wearily*


I believe that this will make a fighter more versatile and by making the fighter more versatile it becomes more powerful without unbalancing everything else.
No, it doesn't. You've put your finger on the very nub of the problem. The Fighter concept is basically not fixable, because there is no way to reconcile both niche protection with flexibility AND parity in effectiveness. If you make the fighter as powerful as, say, a Barbarian while being, at the same time, more flexible, then no Gamist in their right mind will play the Barbarian. If you make the Fighter less powerful, his flexibility can't compensate for the fact that in well-coordinated parties, everyone serves a well-defined, mutually supportive role in which they specialise. You can't 'fix' the Fighter without breaking the class.

One of the most bizarre defenses of the Fighter concept I've heard is that 'it gives you the freedom to make whatever character you want'. Then why in the blazes are you playing D&D? The whole POINT to a class system is to ensure well-defined party roles and allow functional powergaming at the expense of a mechanical straitjacket. Gaaah!

[Anithexx]

So right now I'm thinking add taunt as an ability under bluff, go through the prestige classes that are simply over specialization in something and turn them into fighter only feats with harder requirements. (example: take from "the Dervish" Fighter only feat Dervish Dance requirements level 8 fighter, Dodge, mobility, tumble rank 4, Base attack +6/+1. Benefit - a fighter can take a full attack action (for melee attacks only) and still move up to there speed however the fighter must move at least 5 feet between each attack. Blah blah blah.

[Eldan]

Out of curiosity why does everyone seem so concerned with Fighters vr. Wizards? Wouldn't a Rouge be a better choice to go toe to toe with a wizard?

Why should he? He doesn't have a lot of helpful stuff against a wizard.

The problem isn't really fighter vs. wizard, though. Intra-party conflict should be rare after all. The problems are more:

Monsters with spell-like or caster abilities. Look at a planetar, or Solar. They can cast like clerics. Other monsters cast like wizards.

And finally: contribution. In a high-level fight, it can easily happen that the wizard just has nothing meaningful to do. He has no options, and nothing he can do against a wide variety of abilities.

Most anti-caster monsters can still be defeated by a more or less creative wizard. Most anti-fighter monsters laugh and point at the poor little mortal with his heavy stick.
So, how does the fighter have a chance against them? By either being buffed by the caster, or using magic equipment, made by, you guessed it, a caster.

What I'm trying to say is: on higher levels, it's no longer the fighter himself contributing. He merely becomes a convenient vessel to put magical effects on.

[Anithexx]

Out of curiosity in what way is a barbarian not a fighter? How about a swashbuckler , or even a Samurai in what way are they not a fighter? I don't mean in how a barbarian gets rage and has more skills than a fighter but isn't the purpose behind a barbarian and a fighter the same?

[Eldan]

Basically, both their fluff and rules are different.

Yes, they fill the same general niche, but so do the cleric and druid, or wizard and sorcerer.

What they do is give a little bit more variety to the game, and a few more choices to the player.

Assuming the group is not big on refluffing, the player can think "Am I Sir Robert Hightower, with his father's warhammer and custom-made full plate, trained from young age by the best weaponmasters; Karka Bonesplitter, the mighty berserker of the Bloodscream tribe, hardened by years of survival in the frozen wastes or Gerardo Lucio Monteverdi, the spoiled third son of a noble from the Free Cities, deadly with a rapier and a favourite of all the ladies?"

Yes, a sufficiently broad fighter class with a lot of choices could probably do all of these. But a sufficiently broad casting class would also cover the Sorcerer, Wizard, Beguiler and Warlock. D&D, basically, always had a variety of classes with pretty narrowly defined roles. Some are wider than others, of course, since a wizard can be a blaster, an illusionist or a controller, but they are roles nevertheless and they carry a certain amount of fluff with them.

[Anithexx]

alright then in your opinion can any of those classes stand up to the same situations that the fighter is failing at and if so why is that?

[Eldan]

Not really, no. They have much he same problems.

The barbarian has the advantage of having at least some unique mechanics, which the fighter entirely lacks.

The Swashbuckler is nice for a small dip to level 3, but he gets even less than a fighter after that.

[Anithexx]

So if a fighter is rendered useless around 7-8th level what can be done to improve a fighter at that point to keep his progression comparable to others without stealing the thunder from other classes.

[Samm]

So if a fighter is rendered useless around 7-8th level what can be done to improve a fighter at that point to keep his progression comparable to others without stealing the thunder from other classes.

Well, what everyone seems to be advocating is, give him unique class features. That'd be really cool. Also, these features have to be fairly powerful, and give him some use outside out of combat.

[Shpadoinkle]

Aside from using ToB or aping the ToB system in one way or another? Essentially nothing.

The fighter is a horribly designed class. No, WotC, bonus feats are not class features, they're bonuses. You know, stuff you should be getting on top of your class features.

More feats doesn't fix a damn thing, it just widens the number of situations where, if things were slightly different, the fighter could conceivably be useful, but since the wizard is there he's not. It's like if a sorcerer or wizard could only ever learn one or two level 2 spells, and for the vast majority of his career he can only ever learn level 0 or level 1 spells, and level 3+ spells simply didn't exist. That's the fighter's problem.

This was fixed with ToB. Not perfectly, granted, but it good progress towards bridging the planet-sized chasm between where fighters are at high levels and where casters are. Now the chasm is only continent-sized.

[Anithexx]

Well I though of making more fighter only feats but after i typed in an example it just sounded like a maneuver from "Tome of Battle" so if a fighter was to get unique class feature they have to be a solid concept sort of like how a Barbarian gets Rage but I was hoping to keep the Fighters "Adaptivity" (which my firm belief in has been successfully throttled)

[Eldan]

Oh, adaptable classes are fine. I mean, look at every caster archetype class: they have hundreds and hundreds of spells to choose from. If you play a sorcerer, you can make a very different kind of character within that niche.

Doing something similar for the fighter will be difficult, however, especially if you don't want to end up as a ToB copy.

[Oslecamo]

Oh, adaptable classes are fine. I mean, look at every caster archetype class: they have hundreds and hundreds of spells to choose from. If you play a sorcerer, you can make a very different kind of character within that niche.

Doing something similar for the fighter will be difficult, however, especially if you don't want to end up as a ToB copy.

I still say the solution is to get More and stronger feats. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132335)

This is, what makes the wizard so strong? He can learn lots of spells. And...That's it. People claim that the fighter is weak because it "just" gets more feats known, but they complain that the wizard is stronger than the sorceror because the first gets more spells known.

The reason behind that is simply because there's several OMG spells out there, and no OMG feats out there. If there was a feat that would allow the fighter to create and cut trough fields of force nobody would complain about him being weak.

We need high level feats and feat chains with high pre-reqs. Nobody ever got very far with that idea as far as I know. My work in the link above tries to do it but I only ended up making a dozen of feats for it.

But what's your opinion on it? I've been brewing some ideas and I plan to ressurrect that particular project, with more and bigger feats, somewhere on this weekend, but I would like some input in how much merit this idea has.

[Eldan]

Well...
A barbarian can still take feats. Even a wizard could take some, if metamagic feats weren't that much better for him.
The fighter still lacks a justification for his existence, since "I get more of what everyone gets, but nothing of my own" doesn't make a very interesting class.

[Oslecamo]

Well...
A barbarian can still take feats. Even a wizard could take some, if metamagic feats weren't that much better for him.

Well, that's for there's the "fighter only, not even warblade" clause.



The fighter still lacks a justification for his existence, since "I get more of what everyone gets, but nothing of my own" doesn't make a very interesting class.

But that's what the wizard does and everybody worships it! He casts by vancian spellcasting, gets bonus feats and just has a couple unique spells(like the fighter has a couple fighter only feats)!

[Anithexx]

the thing against making extended feat chains so that only a fighter can get it or more than one would mean the fighter wouldn't get a power boost till 8th level, and once he maxed that chain out they would have to start all over on another chain where as any other class always goes in a forward direction.

[Eldan]

The question is:
At this point, why even call them feats? If they are fighter only, they could just as well be paths of class abilities.

[Anithexx]

So drop the feats and make talent trees?

For example:a talent tree based of off "overwhelming force" with abilities like "powerful Blows" where a fighter can chose to drop an attack to deal double damage (such as a fighter with +6 base attack can give up his second swing to have the +6 deal double damage) or "Knock Away" if a fighter deal 15 + damage to an opponent that opponent must make a reflex save or go tumbling in a direction of the fighter's choosing 5 feet +5 feet for ever 5 points the opponent failed by.

[Eldan]

I'd suggest that, yes. It also gives an excuse for making them significantly more powerful and versatile than "mere" feats.

Also: really long chains. If a chain is seven "feats" long, the fighter, as he is now, will learn them by level 6 or 7. (1,1,1,2,3,4,6)

Finally: scaling with level.

[Anithexx]

I think one of the main failings of the Idea of extended feat chains is that the feat chains that are 7 feats long are not only dependent on feat requirements but also things like BaB. so you'll actually spend most of your lower level feats on different chains or on chains that don't really progress but spread out like power attack chain. Also take into account that after 6th level it "feels" as if feats progression slows down.

[Shpadoinkle]

So drop the feats and make talent trees?

Sounds good. I'd suggest calling them schools though.


For example:a talent tree based of off "overwhelming force" with abilities like "powerful Blows" where a fighter can chose to drop an attack to deal double damage (such as a fighter with +6 base attack can give up his second swing to have the +6 deal double damage) or "Knock Away" if a fighter deal 15 + damage to an opponent that opponent must make a reflex save or go tumbling in a direction of the fighter's choosing 5 feet +5 feet for ever 5 points the opponent failed by.

See, stuff like that is what the fighter needs. I wonder why nobody's ever made something like that for fighters before. (http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/bestselling-sci-fi-fantasy-2007/535-1.jpg)

[Eldan]

Well, the first one really is just about what Power Attack is (well, you don't drop your second attack, but with a big minus, it will probably miss. IT's a little more variable than just a fixed penalty for a fixed bonus).
The second one is available for larger creatures, at least.

[Oslecamo]

The question is:
At this point, why even call them feats? If they are fighter only, they could just as well be paths of class abilities.

1-Because fighter-only feats already exist.
2-No need for new silly names that can and will drive away players from them( it's too anime/WOW!).
3-Feats can be more easily moved and played around than fixed class abilities at fixed levels.
4-Easier integration with any new work that may grow from that.



See, stuff like that is what the fighter needs. I wonder why nobody's ever made something like that for fighters before. (http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/bestselling-sci-fi-fantasy-2007/535-1.jpg)

Indeed, I wonder why someone didn't make stronger fighter abilities whitout random cooldowns, prepared spellmaneuver slots and readying limitations:smallwink:

[Jogi]

I do not know whether I am too late, but I think you might wanna consider this: D&D is a game that deals with fantastical universes, where magic usually plays a major role in the world. Therefore you cannot seriously assume that a fluff like the fighter will actually work forever. The whole thing about magic is that it is not mundane, and it can do things you otherwise could only dream of. On the other hand, being a fighter means you're on your way to be on of the best weapon-swinging things in the world. Well that's marvellous, but again, magic ain't mundane. :smallbiggrin:

Nonetheless, I think the skill tree is a good idea.

[Anithexx]

I don't want to replace magic with weapon abilities or maneuvers that's one of the problems I have with "Tomb of Battle" what I want Is to look at the fight and say I could see me going to level 20 with this class. That is something I have never managed to do.

[Shpadoinkle]

I don't want to replace magic with weapon abilities or maneuvers that's one of the problems I have with "Tomb of Battle" what I want Is to look at the fight and say I could see me going to level 20 with this class. That is something I have never managed to do.

That's because the fighter was poorly designed.

[Eldan]

Of course. The problem is that without unique abilities, the fighter will not be viable at high levels. And that doesn't just mean higher numbers: if he had a +10'000 to melee attacks and near-infinite damage, the fighter would still have problems.

I really like Tome of Battle, because for me, it really does what the fighter class lacked. The Warblade is probably as close to a fighter upgrade as you'll get, and concentrating on the schools the Warblade gets still means you are a mundane character, just a strong one.

[Anithexx]

Right now I'm trying to think up rules or abilities that cause fear and panic effects (at higher levels) when you wound someone (they have to save) or kill (their allies have to save) It's not going easy right now though that's most likely due to the fact that I'm going on 30 hour of no sleep and no caffeine. Also running through my head are called shot type abilities such as breaking legs or nauseating stomach blows.

[Oslecamo]

I really like Tome of Battle, because for me, it really does what the fighter class lacked. The Warblade is probably as close to a fighter upgrade as you'll get, and concentrating on the schools the Warblade gets still means you are a mundane character, just a strong one.

Considering that the main trick of the "mundane" warblade is Iron "SHUT OFF THE SUN!" Surge (that however can't save you from paralysis), I must say that you have a quite strange definition of "mundane".:smalltongue:

But since we're at it please present your definition of strong. The fighter can dish out big amounts of damage. A IHS-less warblade can...Dish out big amounts of damage. Hmm, didn't you just said big numbers don't matter that much? It's enough to just have big numbers by other names?

[Eldan]

Intimidate checks?
You get a free intimidate check for killing someone in an especially brutal fashion. (Isn't that a Tiger Claw maneuver already?)

[Anithexx]

Not Intimidate checks but rather a mind affecting extraordinary ability or moral penalty based off of damage delivered or base attack bonus.

[Kaiyanwang]

Indeed, I wonder why someone didn't make stronger fighter abilities whitout random cooldowns, prepared spellmaneuver slots and readying limitations:smallwink:

QFT.

Moreover, if one sees as a problem the spellcaster uberness, I don't see how can ToB fix it.

[Lans]

The reason behind that is simply because there's several OMG spells out there, and no OMG feats out there. If there was a feat that would allow the fighter to create and cut trough fields of force nobody would complain about him being weak.

Boomerang Daze, various soulmelds, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Imperious Command and the 9th level fighter ability that people forget exists.



One of the most bizarre defenses of the Fighter concept I've heard is that 'it gives you the freedom to make whatever character you want'. Then why in the blazes are you playing D&D? The whole POINT to a class system is to ensure well-defined party roles and allow functional powergaming at the expense of a mechanical straitjacket. Gaaah!
Their are certain builds that require a lot of feats, such as Lockdown. It also required the 16th level fighter ability that people always forget about.



As many fixes, this alone doesn't go far enough.

More feats has never been the fighter's problem. In fact, if you look at only core, he can even take more feats than there are in the book. (Useful ones, anyway). But if you go out side of core he easily has need for much more featatude. Whether from Martial study, the combat focus line, or for save boosters.


The problem is that mages can fly and make themselves invisible by level 5. Both of these things make it very difficult for a fighter to deal with them. By the level a wizard gets forcecage, the fighter could just as well give up.
To be fair nothing keeps up with mages, no class should be as powerful as they are. But as far as forcage is concerned its pretty easily bypassed by any character that decides to put it into their repertoire, by a feat thats available at first level.


The fighter's problem is on the one hand that he can't deal with any of the powerful effects available in late game, on the other hand that he can't do anything interesting himself.
Name these effects please. He can't deal with mages that bring in a half dozen CR 47s at level 17 during the fighters surprise round, are omniscient, and have a small army of undead behind them, but should he be expected to?


More feats means he gets higher numbers in damage, or to hit, or in combat maneuvers. But he still can't deal with an invisible flying demon, There's a feat for this


or an incorporeal enemy There's a feat for this also.


. At least not without a caster specifically buffing him to do it. And in that case, the fighter isn't a hero anymore, he's a device for the caster to use.

Except there is a feat for both of those so try again.

[Anithexx]

So if we stop trying to compare the fighter to the wizard what should we try to compare the fighter against so that the class is more balanced (While I believe feats are important the Fighter never has given the feel of "If I take this Prestige class I'll never get these abilities though you can see the same in Wizards (no one complains about that due to how powerful wizards are.)

[Lans]

So if we stop trying to compare the fighter to the wizard what should we try to compare the fighter against so that the class is more balanced
We could try actual enemies and terrain features, or the more balanced classes like Warblade, Bard, Psychic Warrior, or Binder.





(While I believe feats are important the Fighter never has given the feel of "If I take this Prestige class I'll never get these abilities though you can see the same in Wizards (no one complains about that due to how powerful wizards are.)

Most wizards prestige classes give everything that a wizard gets and more.

As for fighter, it can get double damage at 16th level which is why Lockdown didn't take level dips until after that point.

Though their was a modified version of it that took monk 2 for its decisive strike, and used a different weapon.

Then the druid gave its Elemental Companion a spike chain and redid its feats, through either Psychic reformation/the other method/or having it taking different feats through the level up.

[Oslecamo]

Boomerang Daze, various soulmelds, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Imperious Command and the 9th level fighter ability that people forget exists.

Boomerang daze is quite good, but not time stop/mormekdain's disjuction. Soulmelds are good but still weaker than spells. ToB stuff is powerfull, but at best they're in the power level of spells on the 3-4 range. The 9th level fighter ability...I'm afraid I don't know what that one is really.

But basically, yes, those are all cool powerfull effects, but magic is still damn stronger whitout even touching the cheese. Teleport, improved invisibility, cloudkill, force effects, ect, ect.

[Anithexx]

Well I know that the Juggernaut epic prestige class allows some one to rip apart a wall of force so why not allow a sunder chain to eventually work against force effects (what is the earliest that force effects can come into play?)

As for actual monsters let pick a combat focused Cr 6 monster and see what we can do to help a fighter compare against it (at what level could some one solo a cr 6?)

[Lans]

Boomerang daze is quite good, but not time stop/mormekdain's disjuction. Soulmelds are good but still weaker than spells. ToB stuff is powerfull, but at best they're in the power level of spells on the 3-4 range.
Its not the power, its the utility, a Fighter with 1 magic item can be a reasonable threat to most monsters. The Soulmelds take care of force effects, battle field control, and incorporeal, the ToB stuff repairs status effects, and Boomerang Daze gives a superscaling effect that covers combat.




The 9th level fighter ability...I'm afraid I don't know what that one is really. Swift action demorilize, with IC and Never Outnumbered it gets damn good action economy.


But basically, yes, those are all cool powerfull effects, but magic is still damn stronger whitout even touching the cheese. Teleport, improved invisibility, cloudkill, force effects, ect, ect.

Cloudkill really isn't that good outside of fights with NPCs, force effects are beat with a feat, teleport is utility, invisibility is beat with a feat chain, as are mind affecting effects, energy/ability drain, and other stuff I'm sure.

edit-not saying that fighters have enough feats to do all of this, a hypothetical fighter that has 40 feats sure can.

[Oslecamo]

Its not the power, its the utility, a Fighter with 1 magic item can be a reasonable threat to most monsters. The Soulmelds take care of force effects, battle field control, and incorporeal, the ToB stuff repairs status effects, and Boomerang Daze gives a superscaling effect that covers combat.

Notice martial study can be used once per combat.
But soulmelds seem to indeed be good stuff but they're also a poorly known system. Guess I'll have to take a closer look at my incarnum book, seems I have been missing some cool stuff.



Swift action demorilize, with IC and Never Outnumbered it gets damn good action economy.

Not if you face anything immune to fear.



Cloudkill really isn't that good outside of fights with NPCs, force effects are beat with a feat, teleport is utility, invisibility is beat with a feat chain, as are mind affecting effects, energy/ability drain, and other stuff I'm sure.

Yes, but then you start to actualy run low on feats, as you also need power attack chain and close combat quarters and pierce magical protection and... You get the idea. My tactical feat project also aims at puting diferent effects on the same feats.

[Anithexx]

Have you posted your tactical feat project I would really like to see what you have done with ( I've always liked tactical feats but most seem disappointing)

[Lans]

Notice martial study can be used once per combat.
But soulmelds seem to indeed be good stuff but they're also a poorly known system. Guess I'll have to take a closer look at my incarnum book, seems I have been missing some cool stuff.

True, its not a perfect system but it gives a potential action to negate a lot of potential actions.


Not if you face anything immune to fear.
True, but that's like saying Mordakens Disjunction is useless against a nonmagical foe. Its also a swift action so its not really a loss of an action. I can't really think of too many uses for swift actions for a fighter. Maybe something from Complete Champion or ... something.




Yes, but then you start to actualy run low on feats, as you also need power attack chain and close combat quarters and pierce magical protection and... You get the idea. My tactical feat project also aims at puting diferent effects on the same feats.

I know, I edited my post while you were posting this.

[Eldan]

Well I know that the Juggernaut epic prestige class allows some one to rip apart a wall of force so why not allow a sunder chain to eventually work against force effects (what is the earliest that force effects can come into play?

Disjoining Strike

Prerequisites: Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, BAB 10+

Benefit: Something along the lines of "you can sunder force effects".

?