Fighters and Kobolds and Trolls, Oh My! [3.5 D&D thought experiments]

[PId6]

Depends on if he just begun his existence in the middle of the arena. Otherwise, precast spells with 20+ hour durations make him pretty much just win. Moment of Prescience alone makes him guaranteed to win initiative, for example.

[The Glyphstone]

Or if he knows he's going to be in this situation. If he's also limited to core-only, and cannot employ pre-buffing time, it's a very viable tactic for him to start wearing Adamantine Full Plate and carrying a Tower Shield too. As soon as he gets a turn (the slingstones can't injure him outside crits, and only 8 can try and spear him), he casts a Stilled, Extended Ethereal Jaunt (bypassing the 85% ASF) and retreats to the Ethereal Plane. He then spends the next 1d4+1 minutes taking off his armor (lvl20 Extended Ethereal Jaunt lasts 4 minutes - if he's going to run out of time, which there is a 25% possibility of such, he pauses in the middle and readies an action to cast a Stilled Ethereal Jaunt, then finishes).

[Thane of Fife]

he casts a Stilled, Extended Ethereal Jaunt (bypassing the 85% ASF) and retreats to the Ethereal Plane.

I think that traveling to the Ethereal Plane probably counts as exiting the arena, which would not be allowed. Wearing adamantine armor and casting all his spells stilled could work, I guess, though it would seriously cut into his number of spells.

[Azernak0]

Fi-eye Toor (32 point buy)
STR: 18 (23)
DEX: 16
CON: 14

Using max at first level and average across the board, he has 205.5 hp with Toughness.

Gear:
Masterwork Spiked Chain
Adamantine Spiked Full Plate

AC:
10 + 8 + 1 = 19. Kobold's must roll a 18 to hit melee, and 16 with their slings.

Attack:

+29/+24/+19/+14
2d4+13

For some RAW-tarded goodness, he will be using non lethal to keep the kobolds alive and still occupying a space, thereby ignoring the respawn mechanism. However, I am sure this is not what you were looking for, so it's also possible not to use nonlethal and just kill them. No need to Power Attack here, as 1 hit will automatically deal 15 damage minimum, instantly killing the 14 HP kobold.


Feats

H: Combat Reflexes
1: EWP: SC
F1: Weapon Focus: SC
F2: Power Attack
3: Cleave
F4: Weapon Specialization: SC
6: Great Cleave
F6: Improved Unarmed Strike:
F8: Improved Grapple
9: Weapon Focus: Armor Spikes
F10: Weapon Specialization: Armor Spikes
12: Greater Weapon Focus: SC
F12: Greater Weapon Specialization: SC
F14: Greater Weapon Focus: Armor Spikes
15: Greater Weapon Specialization: Armor Spikes
F16: Quick Draw
18: Improved Initiative
F18: Toughness
20: Toughness


Kills:
It is impossible to actually calculate how many kobolds are killed. On his turn, Fi-eye kills every kobold in a 10 foot diameter around him (which is 18 if using hexagonal grid). On the kobold's turn, he waits for all the kobolds to fill the area, and than makes an Attack of Opportunity, killing 18 of them most of the time. More kobolds can mindlessly charge him and he gets 4 attacks of opportunity around on them. For the sake of simplicity, let's state that it is 90 total kobolds with the ability to be killed, meaning 4.5 are going to get to him with the ability to melee him because of natural ones, and 13.5 are filling in the spaces. Assuming one hits (which is likely), they deal 1d6-1 damage. Fi-eye has DR 3, so there is only a 33% chance that the kobold actually does any damage. Once it is Fi-eye's turn again, he kills the 18 kobold's around him and the whole process repeats again...

The kobolds can't afford to grapple because of the attack of opportunity and the armor spikes dealing 1d6+7 (or 1d6+4 if Armor Spikes don't get any strength bonus) which automatically knocks them unconscious. The kobolds can throw their spears, hoping for a 20 so they could deal a whole 1 or 2 points of damage considering they are having to shoot into melee, over their friends, and probably at range increment.

But none of that really matters because:
On his turn, he kills the 18 around him. Suddenly, a wave of kobolds pelt him with slings. With the hexagonal grid and a 300 x 300 arena, there are probably well over a 1000 kobolds. 1000 kobolds attack, 50 hit, 2.5 confirm a critical hit, and .125 of them cause an instant death via 20-20-20. You would need 8,000 attacks to get to the point that an instant 20-20-20 could happen (yes, I know the statistics don't quite work that way). If all the kobolds are willing to roll for the super 20's, then it really only matters how many kobolds there are in the 300 x 300 arena.

[The Glyphstone]

^It's already been mentioned that 20-20-20 is not a default rule. It's an optional variant, which hasn't been stated by the OP to be included.

Also, you're hampering your kill count and increasing your vulnerability by using a Spiked Chain instead of a Kusari-Gama plus Tower Shield.





I think that traveling to the Ethereal Plane probably counts as exiting the arena, which would not be allowed. Wearing adamantine armor and casting all his spells stilled could work, I guess, though it would seriously cut into his number of spells.

Oh, right, no leaving the arena.

So yeah, he's stuck in his adamantine armor+tower shield with all Stilled spells. The big loss from that is that he can't cast 9th level spells, though he can probably still win without them.

[sambo.]

within the constraints listed, especially the arena and the constraints put on kobold tactics, the fighter will just cleave his way through gazillions of kobolds.

however, if you redo it as the fighter is trying to fight his way into a kobold fortress, pthen things would be very, very different.

the term is Tuckers Kobolds.

just 'coz they're kobolds, doesn't mean they have to be dumb.

[DaDude9211]

DR 10 and crit immunity means that it's pretty much impossible for kobolds to hurt the wizard at all. Then he can just start wacking with a quarterstaff for all he cares. Wizard vs kobolds is no contest.

Wizard is totally off topic but OP already stated that the fighter gets 1 mundance weapon, armor, and if he wants a shield.

Your wizard has no spellbook. Your wizard has no DR 10 and crit immunity. Your wizard is quite dead, quite quickly...


ANYHOW, onto OP's challenge: I read the first few pages but I didn't see any other true Fighters in this thread yet who were adequately taking hold of the situation, so I don't believe anyone has suggested this yet, though I could be wrong... I have for you, a clever proposition, using your own unfair rules against you; such is the way of the Fighter, hah-ha! Three mundane items? Dare you give a HUMAN FIGHTER 20, THE MOST POWERFUL CLASS/RACE COMBINATION IN THE WORLD, THREE EXTREMELY MUNDANE, NEARLY USELESS ITEMS? My good sir, such is the mistake of a novice. Yay, a single sword in the hand of a Fighter is as if a dozen deadly tools of death being guided by the will of a murderous intent!

"At the end of each round, kobolds appear in every unoccupied edge square of the arena."

Hmm... every unoccupied edge square you say? THEN THEY SHALL HENCE FORTH BE OCCUPIED! Adamantium full plate, Colossal+++ edition! It occupies all the edge squares of the arena except one, which is occupied by a large adamantium tower shield.

DOOM! Doomed have these poor kobolds been subjected to, by merely two items of three! The Fighter may, at his leisure, unblock the edge square by moving the shield, and then strike down kobolds one by one, as if bite-sized morels! Leaving the weapon to be a conveniently medium sized one of his preference!

"The fighter is built using a 32 point buy, and has no constraints beyond those listed here."

NO CONSTRAINTS? Surely by now you know a Fighter without constraints is as a force without opposition! Fighters, the masters of ingenuity, have no rivals but lack of creativity and constraints (nonphysical ones of course, a proper strength check defeats the others).

I will then supplant, that the arena has a well in it and various foliage with berries and nuts for eating. Similarly, no plane of existence was defined. The Fighter, being the dashing glory-hound he is, should not be limited in his glory by constraints such as time. Neigh, he shall duel the kobolds on a timeless, ageless plain - an eternal glory to be paralleled by Valhalla itself!

Victorious again, the Fighter slays the kobold hordes eternally. The answer to the question, "How many can he kill?" OP, is quite simply: As many as he wants.:smallamused:

TL;DR:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5485/fighter20.jpg

[olentu]

Wizard is totally off topic but OP already stated that the fighter gets 1 mundance weapon, armor, and if he wants a shield.

Your wizard has no spellbook. Your wizard has no DR 10 and crit immunity. Your wizard is quite dead, quite quickly...

Oh come now as you just said yourself the limitations were only on the fighter so clearly the wizard can have a 20 story transforming robot tower with a basement full of major artifacts to outfit the kobolds for more of a challenge if he wants.

[DaDude9211]

Oh come now as you just said yourself the limitations were only on the fighter so clearly the wizard can have a 20 story transforming robot tower with a basement full of major artifacts to outfit the kobolds for more of a challenge if he wants.

A: That is not a weapon, armor, or shield, even if it is mundane.
B: Artifacts would be magic.
C: OP never mentions a wizard, so if you apply the logic that the restrictions are only stated as applying to the Fighter then you could also follow up that through omission he doesn't exist either. I'm not too well versed on wizard optimization but I'm pretty sure existing is an important first base to cover.
To follow, if he does exist in place of the Fighter, duplicate rules should follow him. The wizard relies on a spellbook. This is a weakness a Fighter does not have. If his environment, such as this challenge, exploits that weakness against them, that's tough cookies. Perhaps you should consider a class without a glaring weakness in this environment, like a Monk, or if you have CW, Samurai.

[Gametime]

A: That is not a weapon, armor, or shield, even if it is mundane.
B: Artifacts would be magic.
C: OP never mentions a wizard, so if you apply the logic that the restrictions are only stated as applying to the Fighter then you could also follow up that through omission he doesn't exist either. I'm not too well versed on wizard optimization but I'm pretty sure existing is an important first base to cover.
To follow, if he does exist in place of the Fighter, duplicate rules should follow him. The wizard relies on a spellbook. This is a weakness a Fighter does not have. If his environment, such as this challenge, exploits that weakness against them, that's tough cookies. Perhaps you should consider a class without a glaring weakness in this environment, like a Monk, or if you have CW, Samurai.

Or a sorcerer. He doesn't need a spellbook, and can pull off enough relevant wizard tricks to trivialize the challenge in much the same way.

EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, kobolds are weak enough that a wizard could just pull off the same trick you described for the fighter. Poor base attack bonus and simple weapons are still sufficient to kill a single kobold a round, and readied actions mean they'll still never get a chance to attack.

[Fortuna]

DaDude, that's a wonderful plan, although quite similar to nolispe's. And yet, that's not actually the question I meant to ask, whether or not I did ask it. To that end, the OP has been edited.

Also, it's still not infinite. Due to auto-failures and auto-successes, you would die eventually. Eventually, there will be an exceptionally lucky kobold rolling 20 after 20 after 20 while you wonder at the poor luck giving you all those ones...

So that's actually just a lot,

[olentu]

A: That is not a weapon, armor, or shield, even if it is mundane.
B: Artifacts would be magic.
C: OP never mentions a wizard, so if you apply the logic that the restrictions are only stated as applying to the Fighter then you could also follow up that through omission he doesn't exist either. I'm not too well versed on wizard optimization but I'm pretty sure existing is an important first base to cover.
To follow, if he does exist in place of the Fighter, duplicate rules should follow him. The wizard relies on a spellbook. This is a weakness a Fighter does not have. If his environment, such as this challenge, exploits that weakness against them, that's tough cookies. Perhaps you should consider a class without a glaring weakness in this environment, like a Monk, or if you have CW, Samurai.

A: Wizard is not fighter.
B: Wizard is not fighter.
C: Oh sure the wizard was not originally part of the challenge but if you were following that rule you would not have mentioned wizards at all and yet you did.


Also since the restriction is only on the fighter's equipment the wizard is actually at a great advantage unless you were to propose a new challenge and I responded to it. Now if you want to propose a separate challenge regarding the wizard that is fine but if that is the case then actually propose the challenge. However you have not as far as I can tell defiantly done so and so I shall assume that you have not.

[Johel]

*Troll*
Shall we proceed with the original topic or do I point you to how to create new threads ?

@DaDude9211 :
Sir, this post of yours (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8603785#post8603785) deserves an Internet, if only for making me laugh like Hell.

[pingcode20]

*Pulverising the challenge*

Bravo, bravo man. You succeeded in breaking the challenge so hard that Random_Person had to adjust the rules to close that loophole.

Looking forward to you coming up with a new way to horribly abuse the challenge.

[Eldariel]

Oh, right, no leaving the arena.

So yeah, he's stuck in his adamantine armor+tower shield with all Stilled spells. The big loss from that is that he can't cast 9th level spells, though he can probably still win without them.

Why not just Shapechange into immune thing and kill? Anything Incorporeal, anything with DR above 10/theydon'tpenetrate, anything with DR and Fast Healing, etc. You don't need to cast more spells, you just need to cast some good ones.

Alternatively, fly, put up a Prismatic Sphere and start slinging funnies. Or just some Wind Wall setup if you really have to do it with lower level spells, but might as well abuse 9s when you have them.


Your wizard has no spellbook. Your wizard has no DR 10 and crit immunity. Your wizard is quite dead, quite quickly...

He only needs Spell Mastery: Shapechange. Hell, since his Int Mod is like to be quite high (he can have cast Wish to have 28 at least), he can have few other spells under Spell Mastery. But that doesn't even matter. Don't underestimate Wizards lest you have a death wish.

[Jack_Simth]

Why not just Shapechange into immune thing and kill? Anything Incorporeal, anything with DR above 10/theydon'tpenetrate, anything with DR and Fast Healing, etc. You don't need to cast more spells, you just need to cast some good ones.

Alternatively, fly, put up a Prismatic Sphere and start slinging funnies. Or just some Wind Wall setup if you really have to do it with lower level spells, but might as well abuse 9s when you have them.



He only needs Spell Mastery: Shapechange. Hell, since his Int Mod is like to be quite high (he can have cast Wish to have 28 at least), he can have few other spells under Spell Mastery. But that doesn't even matter. Don't underestimate Wizards lest you have a death wish.

Let's see... how to do it for sure...
1) Wall of Stone. Kobolds can't beat Hardness-8, so the wall will stick around forever. Make it so the kobolds have to go through a tunnel to get to you.
2) Wall of Fire. Duration Concentration, no save. If we Maximize it (7th level slot), it automatically puts any kobold coming within 10 feet of it, and auto-kills any kobold going through it.

So we make a Wall of Stone such that you can't approach the Sorcerer (or Wizard, or certain domain clerics) without going through the wall of Fire, and then just sit there and concentrate forever (well, until you starve to death, anyway ... and Permanency can deal with that).

[The Glyphstone]

Why not just Shapechange into immune thing and kill? Anything Incorporeal, anything with DR above 10/theydon'tpenetrate, anything with DR and Fast Healing, etc. You don't need to cast more spells, you just need to cast some good ones.

Alternatively, fly, put up a Prismatic Sphere and start slinging funnies. Or just some Wind Wall setup if you really have to do it with lower level spells, but might as well abuse 9s when you have them.


The point being discussed at the time was the danger that the wizard, who had been forbidden prep time or precast spells, could lose initiative against at least a portion of the kobolds. If he doesn't manage to go before all of them, then he's going to be subjected to roughly 4,500 slingstones (5% of the 90,000 kobolds who can fit in the arena) from just the kobolds who out-sped him by rolling natural 20's, and with his modifier+roll not exceeding theirs. Dead wizard. So, it was a rather unorthodox way of ensuring he'd survive until his turn began.

[Darcy]

Wizard is totally off topic but OP already stated that the fighter gets 1 mundance weapon, armor, and if he wants a shield.

Your wizard has no spellbook. Your wizard has no DR 10 and crit immunity. Your wizard is quite dead, quite quickly...


ANYHOW, onto OP's challenge: I read the first few pages but I didn't see any other true Fighters in this thread yet who were adequately taking hold of the situation, so I don't believe anyone has suggested this yet, though I could be wrong... I have for you, a clever proposition, using your own unfair rules against you; such is the way of the Fighter, hah-ha! Three mundane items? Dare you give a HUMAN FIGHTER 20, THE MOST POWERFUL CLASS/RACE COMBINATION IN THE WORLD, THREE EXTREMELY MUNDANE, NEARLY USELESS ITEMS? My good sir, such is the mistake of a novice. Yay, a single sword in the hand of a Fighter is as if a dozen deadly tools of death being guided by the will of a murderous intent!

"At the end of each round, kobolds appear in every unoccupied edge square of the arena."

Hmm... every unoccupied edge square you say? THEN THEY SHALL HENCE FORTH BE OCCUPIED! Adamantium full plate, Colossal+++ edition! It occupies all the edge squares of the arena except one, which is occupied by a large adamantium tower shield.

DOOM! Doomed have these poor kobolds been subjected to, by merely two items of three! The Fighter may, at his leisure, unblock the edge square by moving the shield, and then strike down kobolds one by one, as if bite-sized morels! Leaving the weapon to be a conveniently medium sized one of his preference!

"The fighter is built using a 32 point buy, and has no constraints beyond those listed here."

NO CONSTRAINTS? Surely by now you know a Fighter without constraints is as a force without opposition! Fighters, the masters of ingenuity, have no rivals but lack of creativity and constraints (nonphysical ones of course, a proper strength check defeats the others).

I will then supplant, that the arena has a well in it and various foliage with berries and nuts for eating. Similarly, no plane of existence was defined. The Fighter, being the dashing glory-hound he is, should not be limited in his glory by constraints such as time. Neigh, he shall duel the kobolds on a timeless, ageless plain - an eternal glory to be paralleled by Valhalla itself!

Victorious again, the Fighter slays the kobold hordes eternally. The answer to the question, "How many can he kill?" OP, is quite simply: As many as he wants.:smallamused:

TL;DR:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5485/fighter20.jpg

the best of posts!

[DaDude9211]

Looking up nolispe's post... wow that is shockingly similar. Nolispe appears to be a true Fighter!

@Eladriel I did not think of Spell Mastery; that is a good fix for that problem.

[OldTrees]

The Fighter 20
Human Fighter 20
Hit Dice: 20d10+36+120 (266hp)
AC: 23 (+1 Dex, Adamantine Full Plate [+8, DR 3/-], Adamantine Tower Shield [+4])
Attack: Adamantine Kusari Gama +25 melee 1d6+5
Full Attack: Adamantine Kusari Gama +25/+20/+15/+10 melee 1d6+4
Abilities: Str 16 [+3], Con 22 [+6], Dex 12 [+1], Int 08 [-1], Wis 08 [-1], Cha 08 [-1]
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kusari Gama), Weapon Focus (Kusari Gama), Weapon Specialization (Kusari Gama), Toughness x12

Minimize enemies in sling range/enemies in melee range by standing 3 squares diagonal from the corner.
lX X O
lX X X
lX X X
Enemies in 10ft. [20]
Enemies in 60ft. but greater than 10ft. [154]

Kobolds attacking from the center gain a +2 charge bonus for a total of +3 melee
Kobolds filtering in behind gain flanking bonus +2 for a total of +3 melee
Kobolds using slings have a total of +3 ranged
Armor Class 23 means only 20s hit

Spear normal damage is 1d6-4 min 0
0 damage on a roll of 1-4
1 damage on a roll of 5
2 damage on a roll of 6
Average Normal Damage 1/2

Spear critical damage is 3d6-6 min 0
3d6 #/216 3d6-6 #/216 x 3d6-6
Average Critical Damage 976/216

Average Spear Damage per attack
(1/20)(1/2 x 19/20 + 976/216 x 1/20)=14/400= 0.035 per melee attack

Sling normal damage is 1d3-4 min 0
Average normal damage 0

Sling Critical Damage is 2d3-5 min 0
1 damage on a roll of 3,3
Average Normal Damage 1/9

Average Sling Damage per attack
(1/20)(0 x 19/20 + 1/9 x 1/20)=1/3600= .000278

Average Sling Damage per round from 154 slings =154/3600= .042778

Since they have to walk through our threatened area to reach the rear, we can wait for our full reach to fill before triggering our AoOs on the last kobold each time.
Minimum number of Kobolds to trigger AoO is 9 (max is 20)

Each Full Attack without 5ft stepping targets 20 and each AoO targets 9-20.
I assume the Kobolds are dumb enough to allow 20 targets per AoO.

Each Attack with +14 or greater modifier kills ∑(19/20)^i [i=1->20] with great cleave
This turn out to be 12.18876747 with each cleave spree

Every round we full attack the twenty around us with our first 2-3 attacks and the cleave attempts from them. Then we wait and use our 2 AoOs to kill another 12.18876747 each for a total of 44.37753494 each round. We suffer 42.37753494 melee spear attacks per round

Average Spear damage per round (.035 x 42.37753494)= 1.483213723
Average Sling damage per round .042778
Average damage per round 1.525991723

Average Rounds Survived (266/1.525991723)=174.3128721
Average Kobolds slain (44.37753494 x 174.3128721)=7735.575572 =7736

[imp_fireball]

The warrior can probably kill an infinite number of them with Great Cleave. Attacks of opportunity and whatnot... They can't hit him... etc...


So wait, he can move infinitely? Unless you're talking about supreme cleave (or whatever feat allows 5ft. steps after every successful cleave), and even then assuming every kobold is clustered.


The kobolds aren't going to have more than +10 AC

Actually, maximum +11 AC. +8 Armor +1 Natural Armor +1 Size +1 Dex. And that's assuming they have variable mundane equipment. Then again, OP says otherwise.


Alternatively, isn't there a feat-based way to get access to manoevres, and thus be able to heal himself as he fights? (My ToB fu is very weak, but this could be awesome if accurate).

It's accurate. There's one that allows regenerate CON modifier in damage (I think) everytime he recovers a maneuver. Then again, maneuver recovery is different for non initiates (the feat says so), so it may take longer then the ever convenient swift action for warblades (that's the only class I'm certain about maneuver recovery for actually, if it's any longer then a swift action, his attacks will be hindered and the kobolds can swarm more easily).

[Kantolin]

Hey, I thought of something else.

Kobolds 'appear' in any unoccupied edge space, and people fill spaces.

Summarily, he should kill his way to the edges of the arena, then ensure that any kobold in any edge space is hit with nonlethal damage, thus preventing more from respawning while removing threats.

Once he's done that all the way around the arena, he can then kill one, and kill the kobold who replaces it, until he gets tired or hungry or thirsty or whatever, in which he can subdual the next one and take a nice nap, or eat them, or whatever must be done. Nonlethal the kobolds hardcore enough that he has enough time to rest until he's fully healed from natural healing.

[Gametime]

Hey, I thought of something else.

Kobolds 'appear' in any unoccupied edge space, and people fill spaces.

Summarily, he should kill his way to the edges of the arena, then ensure that any kobold in any edge space is hit with nonlethal damage, thus preventing more from respawning while removing threats.

Once he's done that all the way around the arena, he can then kill one, and kill the kobold who replaces it, until he gets tired or hungry or thirsty or whatever, in which he can subdual the next one and take a nice nap, or eat them, or whatever must be done. Nonlethal the kobolds hardcore enough that he has enough time to rest until he's fully healed from natural healing.

It hasn't been specified, but I'd wager the OP will soon be updated to clarify that unconscious kobolds disappear just like dead ones.

[DaDude9211]

Hey, I thought of something else.

Kobolds 'appear' in any unoccupied edge space, and people fill spaces.

Summarily, he should kill his way to the edges of the arena, then ensure that any kobold in any edge space is hit with nonlethal damage, thus preventing more from respawning while removing threats.

Once he's done that all the way around the arena, he can then kill one, and kill the kobold who replaces it, until he gets tired or hungry or thirsty or whatever, in which he can subdual the next one and take a nice nap, or eat them, or whatever must be done. Nonlethal the kobolds hardcore enough that he has enough time to rest until he's fully healed from natural healing.

An interesting prospect, can he do that though? You have to keep 236 Kobolds unconscious if I didn't miscount.

[Kyrthain]

Not too difficult, I imagine. I mean, all of the builds presented so far have been able to take out thousands, so I would imagine that the fighter would have no problem knocking them out instead. -4 to hit isn't too bad, given how much his attack bonus exceed their AC's

[olentu]

It hasn't been specified, but I'd wager the OP will soon be updated to clarify that unconscious kobolds disappear just like dead ones.

Well he could do that or he could instead and more humorously clarify that edge is in 3d so the rain of kobolds eventually will be able to remove one of the sleepers as that would work as an actual clarification rather then a change to the rules.

[tyckspoon]

Well he could do that or he could instead and more humorously clarify that edge is in 3d so the rain of kobolds eventually will be able to remove one of the sleepers as that would work as an actual clarification rather then a change to the rules.

Oh god it's the infinite goblins thread all over again (if the search tool was more useful here I would link it. It's worth reading- infinite goblins, one wizard, the wizard always rolls 1s, the goblins always roll 20. What do you do?)

[Kantolin]

It hasn't been specified, but I'd wager the OP will soon be updated to clarify that unconscious kobolds disappear just like dead ones.

Likely. ^_^ But the original point of the thought experiment has already been answered with a lot of effective math, too


An interesting prospect, can he do that though? You have to keep 236 Kobolds unconscious if I didn't miscount.

Well, nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 per hour (for a level 1 character like these kobolds, anyway). Summarily, assuming he had a single hour to get it done in, that's still 600 rounds to smack 236 kobolds, which the fighter can totally handle even without cleave or whirlwind attack or the like.

There then doesn't seem to be an upper cap for how much nonlethal damage you can do to a given target, so once they're all out he can just full nonlethal attack each one, which would take him ~236 rounds which is less than a half hour's worth of effort. If he's feeling particularly worried, he can do it twice, and then repeat it every morning (They'll have healed ~24 hit points each morning).

He's then free to kill one (two if he has cleave, as many as fit in his reach if he has great cleave) a round, and can just return to nonlethal damage if he's tired or feels the need to return to subdualing more kobolds.

[Fortuna]

Eh, stuff it. I've seen the answer, and it's big, and so now I declare this thread open to whatever ridiculous stuff you want to do with a core human fighter 20 against kobolds.

[Eldan]

Shall we make a few other interesting challenges?

I suggest:

The arena is a wide, open plain of infinite size.
The fighter gets: one mundane suit if armour of this choice, one mundane weapon of his choice, and one lit torch.

With him in the arena are three trolls. Every round, another troll pops in sixty feet away from the fighter, no matter how many there are already.

How many can he kill?

[Fortuna]

Actually, other interesting challenges could be fun. I might go rename the thread and edit the OP.

[Eldariel]

How many can he kill?

0, because he has no means of piercing their regeneration outside the Torch which doesn't do enough damage to meaningfully inconvenience them (1 point per hit vs. 63 HP? Yeah, that'll take a while) and as there are 3 new Trolls each round, the Fighter will never have the time to finish off the downed ones with lethal damage meaning at best he can keep some incapacitated.

I suggest challenge conditions be changed to Fighter merely dropping the Trolls and perhaps keeping them down.

[Eldan]

Oh, be a little creative.

Let's add a small body of water, then. 20x20x20 ft.

Also, it's one new troll per turn.

[Tiki Snakes]

Surely you just ubercharger them into absolute paste, then singe with the torch to keep them down?

[The Glyphstone]

Surely you just ubercharger them into absolute paste, then singe with the torch to keep them down?

That only works in 4E. Ubercharging them into paste will do a pile of nonlethal damage, but it'll stay nonlethal, even after you do 1 point of lethal damage with a torch. They'll heal slowly from the ubercharging damage.

Besides, you can't make a core-only ubercharger, due to the lack of Pounce. Can't even really make a normal charger without a mount, which isn't on our allowed list.

[Eldariel]

Besides, you can't make a core-only ubercharger, due to the lack of Pounce. Can't even really make a normal charger without a mount, which isn't on our allowed list.

For Core Charger to be any good, you need Mount as Spirited Charge is the only multiplier available in Core. Only other way to do meaningful damage after moving is Polymorph into something with Pounce; otherwise you're stuck with a ranged full attack or single melee attack, both of which are extraordinarily unimpressive.

[Johel]

Trolls treat slashing damage as non-lethal damage
Trolls heal 5 pts of non-lethal damage per round
Once a creature's non-lethal damage exceed its current hit points, it falls unconscious.
Trolls have 63 hp
Trolls have an AC of 16


Hence, our fighter must simply find a way to deal at least 69 damage per round while retaining a Attack Bonus of at least than +14.

Masterwork Spiked Chain (Attack Bonus +1, Damage 2d4)
Strength 22 (Attack Bonus +6, Damage Bonus +9)
Power Attack (Attack Bonus -10, Damage Bonus +20)
Weapon Focus (Attack Bonus +1)
Weapon Specialization (Damage Bonus +2)
Greater Weapon Focus (Attack Bonus +1)
Greater Weapon Specialization (Damage Bonus +2)


Round 1
TROLL 1, TROLL 2, TROLL 3 appear !!

1st Attack vs TROLL 1
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1 = +19
AC 16
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

2nd Attack vs TROLL 1
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-5 = +14
AC 16
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 1 is at -7 hp or less !!

Great Cleave vs TROLL 2
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-5 = +14
AC 16
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 2 is at 28 hp or less !!

3rd Attack vs TROLL 1
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-10+4 = +13
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

4th Attack vs TROLL 1
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-15+4 = +9
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 1 is at -77 hp or less !!

5th Attack vs TROLL 1
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-20+4 = +4
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

80% chances to hit.

Round 2
TROLL 4 appears !!
TROLL 1 heals 5 hp, he is at -72 hp
TROLL 2 heals 5 hp, he is at +33 hp
TROLL 3 is at 63 hp

1st Attack vs TROLL 3
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1 = +19
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

2nd Attack vs TROLL 3
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-5 = +14
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 3 is at -7 hp or less !!

Great Cleave vs TROLL 2
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-5 = +14
AC 16
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 2 is at -2 hp or less !!

Great Cleave vs TROLL 3
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-5 = +14
AC 16
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 3 is at -42 hp or less !!

3rd Attack vs TROLL 2
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-10+4 = +13
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

4th Attack vs TROLL 2
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-15+4 = +9
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 2 is at -72 hp or less !!

5th Attack vs TROLL 2
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-20+4 = +4
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

80% chances to hit
Round 3
TROLL 5 appears !!
TROLL 1 heals 5 hp, he is at -67 hp
TROLL 2 heals 5 hp, he is at -67 hp
TROLL 3 heals 5 hp, he is at -37 hp
TROLL 4 is at 63 hp

1st Attack vs TROLL 4
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1 = +19
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

2nd Attack vs TROLL 4
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-5 = +14
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 4 is at -7 hp or less !!

Great Cleave vs TROLL 5
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-5 = +14
AC 16
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 5 is at 28 hp or less !!

3rd Attack vs TROLL 4
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-10+4 = +13
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 4 is at -42 hp or less !!

4th Attack vs TROLL 3
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-15+4 = +9
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 4 is at -72 hp or less !!

5th Attack vs TROLL 4
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-20+4 = +4
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

80% chances to hit

Round 3
TROLL 6 appears !!
TROLL 1 heals 5 hp, he is at -62 hp
TROLL 2 heals 5 hp, he is at -62 hp
TROLL 3 heals 5 hp, he is at -67 hp
TROLL 4 heals 5 hp, he is at -37 hp
TROLL 5 heals 5 hp, he is at +33 hp


1st Attack vs TROLL 6
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1 = +19
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

2nd Attack vs TROLL 6
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-5 = +14
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 6 is at -7 hp or less !!

Great Cleave vs TROLL 5
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-5 = +14
AC 16
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 5 is at -2 hp or less !!

Great Cleave vs TROLL 6
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-5+4 = +18
AC 9
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 6 is at -42 hp or less !!

3rd Attack vs TROLL 5
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-10+4 = +13
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 5 is at -37 hp or less !!

4th Attack vs TROLL 4
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-15+4 = +9
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

TROLL 4 is at -72 hp or less !!

5th Attack vs TROLL ...whoever you want !!
Attack Bonus : +20+6-10+1+1+1-20+4 = +4
AC 9 (Dex = 0)
Damage : 2d4+9+20+2+2 = 2d4+33

80% chances to hit

TROLL 1 is at -62 hp
TROLL 2 is at -62 hp
TROLL 3 is at -67 hp
TROLL 4 is at -67 hp
TROLL 5 is at -37 hp
TROLL 6 is at -42 hp

Round 4
TROLL 7 appears !!
TROLL 1 heals 5 hp, he is at -57 hp
TROLL 2 heals 5 hp, he is at -57 hp
TROLL 3 heals 5 hp, he is at -62 hp
TROLL 4 heals 5 hp, he is at -62 hp
TROLL 5 heals 5 hp, he is at -32 hp
TROLL 6 heals 5 hp, he is at -37 hp

...and all I'm blocked here.
Basically, I can put down Trolls forever, 2 attacks being enough to put a Troll into negative while 3 attacks put him out for at least 7 rounds.
But I can never find enough time to kill one with the torch.

[term1nally s1ck]

Add in quick draw, and hold a torch in one hand, using free actions to actually pick it up.

And you forgot that you'll get AoOs as they come towards you on their turn.

[Flickerdart]

Add in quick draw, and hold a torch in one hand, using free actions to actually pick it up.

And you forgot that you'll get AoOs as they come towards you on their turn.
You don't - they have Large reach.

[The Glyphstone]

Long Analysis

There's only two potential problems here - you appear to be assuming that trolls do not get to act on the turn they 'spawn', and that they start in full-attack range. If the first isn't true, the fighter will eventually run out of HP from trolls charging him. If the second isn't true, then won't trolls be spawning faster than they can be taken down?