PDA

View Full Version : improving base classes that need it



gallagher
2010-05-28, 02:24 PM
and no, not just the monk, there are many base classes that just need a little tweaking to be at least viable without needed multiclassing or multiple and various prc dips.

as far as i see them, the monk, the soulknife, the ranger, and the knight just need a little bit of fixing. they each have something that gives them distinctive flavor. the monk has flurry, speed, slowfalling, and some other things, the ranger has favored enemies, soulknife has a mindblade, and the knight can force others to fight him.

each of these could be used well either in certain situations, or with a bit of upgrading. so what do you see as far as classes like these and what they need?

the monk could use a pounce ability to take advantage of the speed and flurry.
the ranger could use some more weapon style choices, or possibly skill tricks as part of the class itself
the knight could probably use some way to self heal, or at least a delayed damage pool like the crusader
the soulknife, i feel, should hit on touch AC, like the eldritch glaive warlock

what are some other classes that you think you could fix, and how would you fix htem?

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-28, 03:00 PM
Go to the Homebrew Design subforum. It's right below this one on the main forums page.
-Xavez

Renchard
2010-05-28, 03:03 PM
1) Gestalt the soulknife and monk into one class, and tack on all the soulbow features to boot. That would make a pretty interesting class. Make sure to have a feature to be able to flurry with both the soulknife and mind arrows.

2) Ranger should be able to spontaneously cast all ranger spells, like a warmage or beguiler. Animal companion should be as a druid of his ranger level.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-28, 03:05 PM
Go to the Homebrew Design subforum. It's right below this one on the main forums page.
-Xavez

Or click the banner in my signature. <_<

Greenish
2010-05-28, 03:06 PM
as far as i see them, the monk, the soulknife, the ranger, and the knight just need a little bit of fixing.Unarmed Swordsage, Soulbow, Wildshape ranger/mystic sword of the arcane order ranger/swift hunter, and the crusader.

true_shinken
2010-05-28, 03:31 PM
I think the idea of 'fixing' only arises on highly-optimized games.
When you have a low hp Wizard that mostly casts attack spells and a Cleric that just heals wounds, as is the case with most people stuck in the 2nd edition mindset or that actually follow the advice on the core books... then Ranger, Monk and Soulknife do not seem that weak. Seriously, nothing in D&D is prepared for fully optimized full-casters, they simply breeze through everything. It looks like the problem is with them, not with everything else...

Greenish
2010-05-28, 03:56 PM
I think the idea of 'fixing' only arises on highly-optimized games.
When you have a low hp Wizard that mostly casts attack spells and a Cleric that just heals wounds, as is the case with most people stuck in the 2nd edition mindset or that actually follow the advice on the core books... then Ranger, Monk and Soulknife do not seem that weak. Seriously, nothing in D&D is prepared for fully optimized full-casters, they simply breeze through everything. It looks like the problem is with them, not with everything else...Soulknife's only class feature is "I have a magical weapon!" How is that not weak in any game?

Pluto
2010-05-28, 04:05 PM
I've given half-casters (ie. Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spellthief) the Bard spell progression for a while without any problems*. I let a Monk player use the Psychic Warrior power progression once without anything going too wrong. Samurai, Marshals, Ninjas, Monks, Knights and Swashbucklers with Warblade maneuver progressions probably wouldn't be a problem (adjusting maneuver lists according to role).

The Fighter class doesn't really have a defining concept; I'd scrap it before trying to fix it.

*edit: I also bar prepared casting of any sort and do terrible things to classes which can rewrite their ability lists daily. That's probably about as relevant as the class bumps.

mabriss lethe
2010-05-28, 04:08 PM
Soulknife's only class feature is "I have a magical weapon!" How is that not weak in any game?

In a low magic setting or in an E6 game, a soulknife is surprisingly good.

Mando Knight
2010-05-28, 04:08 PM
Or click the banner in my signature. <_<

Well, we don't want to make the other homebrewers feel bad. :smallwink::smalltongue:

true_shinken
2010-05-28, 04:10 PM
Soulknife's only class feature is "I have a magical weapon!" How is that not weak in any game?

Oh, sure. Psychic strike, knife to the soul, bonus feats and bladewind are just not Soulknife abilities at all.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-28, 04:40 PM
Alternative Class Features (ACFs), substitution levels, feats, and magic items all can help you fix the weak points of such classes. You might be pleasantly surprised by how much you can accomplish with what WotC has already provided.

Let's take the Monk, for instance.

The Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil) trades evasion for the ability to turn invisible (at level 2) for 1 round every 3, and Blink (at level 9) for (WIS mod) rounds at a time. The Kung Fu Genius feat (Dragon Compendium) lets you use your INT mod instead of WIS mod for Monk class abilities; that includes Invisible Fist if you take that ACF. Using some party funds temporarily (because the item can be sold after use) at about level 7, a Monk can train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide); then they can make 10' steps in place of 5' steps. This means the Monk can full attack with Flurry of Blows, then step back 10'. Their opponent has to close so they only get 1 attack. At level 9 the Monk can acquire the Snap Kick feat (Tome of Battle), which gives them another unarmed attack with any form of melee attack (including full attacks, standard action attacks, AoOs, or bonus attacks); that gives the Monk 4 attacks to their opponent's 1.

None of this makes the Monk a strong class, but it does push it up about as much as the Dungeoncrasher variant pushes the Fighter: a noticeable improvement. If you want more improvement give the Wizard only ― share of party wealth, and the Monk gets 1― share. Enough of the right gear can shore up a lot of weakness, and the Invisible Fist Monk really needs a Ring of Evasion. :smallwink:

Da Beast
2010-05-28, 05:43 PM
Soulknife could use a full base attack bonus for starters. Maybe some bonus feats to go with either two handed or two weapon fighting to power it up a bit more, and some more special striking abilities to make it fun to play. Or just turn it into a psy warrior PrC, like it should be in the first place. Ranger could probably use full level for animal companion, boosted spell casting options (some good ones were listed above) and maybe both combat feat trees for free. I'm not really familiar with the knight so I can't comment on that one, and monk is such a mess I'd sooner just scrap it and replace it with an unarmed swordsage.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-28, 06:25 PM
Oh, sure. Psychic strike, knife to the soul, bonus feats and bladewind are just not Soulknife abilities at all.

They're also a psionic class without any real access to powers by virtue of class.

true_shinken
2010-05-28, 06:29 PM
They're also a psionic class without any real access to powers by virtue of class.
So what? Psionic races are also psionics with no powers.
...and you are wrong anyway, Mind's Eye has a variant that gives Soulknive's powers.

nekomata2
2010-05-28, 06:36 PM
That variant gives them 1 first level power. Really, Soulknife fixes are the PsyWar ACF, or remaking the 3.0 PrC, or making a new PrC. The 3.0 one comes off as more of a rogue.

For monks, maybe if the flurry was a standard action that would help, or upgrade them to full BAB.

The ranger has some good ACFs and feat support, and are my favorite for entering MoMF.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-28, 06:37 PM
So what? Psionic races are also psionics with no powers.
...and you are wrong anyway, Mind's Eye has a variant that gives Soulknive's powers.

Fair enough on the Mind's Eye variant, but I do find that the default Soulknife kind of just sits there laying claim to being psionic by virtue of power points rather than via powers.

Now, there are some psionic races who are also psionic for the same reason as the unaltered Soulknife, which I do find unfortunate, but most of them have either a PLA or some psionically fueled ability to them.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 06:39 PM
So what? Psionic races are also psionics with no powers.Except half-giants, dromites, duergar and maenads, who have PLAs, and elans who can use their power points to fuel racial abilities.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 08:08 PM
So what? Psionic races are also psionics with no powers.
...and you are wrong anyway, Mind's Eye has a variant that gives Soulknive's powers.

1) Most psionic races have something to do with their PP, however. Soulknife? Doesn't.

2) It gives them a power. ONE! First-level! :smallannoyed:

LingVudka
2010-08-09, 04:04 PM
This thread seems to have quietened down and I hope I'm not too late but:

Monk -

Full BAB with Unarmed Strike only, all other weapons get 3/4 BAB even the Monk special weapons. A Monk's body is their greatest weapon and should stay that way.
Let a Monk enhance their body much like the OA Samurai can their weapons.
Increase Wholeness of Body to Wisdom x Monk levels. Like a Paladin's Lay on Hands.
Abundant Step more than 1/day.
Allow Quivering Palm active more than 1/week but only one at any one time and make the Monk take damage based on the creatures HD when the Monk wills the creature to die. Also have the target creature take damage on a successful save.
At higher levels have Wholeness of Body able to recover ability points.
Give more Monk related bonus feats above level 6.
A better capstone please?



Ninja -

Am I the only one that thinks a Ninja's class abilities are out of power order? I personally think Ghost Step (Ethereal) is much stronger than Greater Ki Dodge and there are others. Also I think Ki Dodge (and Greater) should be immediate actions.
I also think giving a Ninja Mirror Image is perfect. (Bunshin no jutsu!!) As is giving Imp Ini as a bonus feat at 1st and Danger Sense as a bonus feat somewhere. They definitely don't overpower the Ninja
I've also been toying with the idea of giving bonus feat choices to the Ninja that are relative to their class. Like acrobatic combat feats and skill improving feats. Alternate them up through the levels.
Give them a bonus to saves against Divination and Detection abilities. A Ninja should never be seen.
Make Ghost Mind work against more detection abilities but have a DC = 15 + Ninja levels. Possible to beat by a very high level caster but still difficult. Also make it so that Ninja are always aware if they're being scryed even if it succeeds.


Marshal -

Give it abilities that allow it to impart their own feats to surrounding allies (for a very limited time).
Make it have Fighter levels equal to Marshal -4.
Give it special abilities where it can boost allies by either charging in first or acting as a rally symbol for defence. Big 1/day abilities.
I also think giving it the ability to rearrange their allies initiative order could be powerful and useful.
A capstone please?


Paladin -
Anything I could say has probably already been said and in a much better way. My attempt at Paladin is in my signature and there are other damn good versions out there.

Samurai -
I think this class was slapped together with not much in mind. The OA version is just a Fighter and the CW version is simply poor. There's too much adjustment to put it in here. I decided to merge them and give other stuff. I like to think of Rurouni Kenshin when I think of a Samurai's abilities.

Soulknife -
I love the concept and think of it as more the skirmisher of the Psionic groups.

More class skills! They've got practically none.
Auto Weapon Finesse with a Mind Blade.
Why oh why did they limit the enhancements that can be applied to a Mind Blade? Total nerfing.
Have Psychic Strike affect any Non-mindless creature and cause max damage on a crit.
Give it Hidden Talent, Wild Talent is so underpar in comparison. Or better yet how about both (at differing levels) and a 1st level power choice.
Give it some self boosting PSL's relative to it's Soulknife levels. They power up as it does. Simples.
I like the idea of Knife to the Soul affecting spell slots and power points OR mental stats. Then a Soulknife starts to worry a caster or manifester, especially if the Soulknife is a sneaky Skirmisher.
At higher levels give it the ability to imbue Psychic Strike as a swift action. Whether it applies to a whole attack or not.....??
A capstone please? I think it should be good whether the Soulknife is close combat or skirmisher focussed. Maybe something that lets them control a combat zone or move freely about.



Swashbuckler -

I think Swashbucklers are just plain lucky at not getting screwed or if they are they should have unusual options for getting out of... whatever.
The ACF Shield of Blades is nice and I'm tempted to give it as well as the Dodge bonus.
Give Lucky more times/day. It's no more broken than a Clerics domain ability.
Swashbucklers are charming and silvertongued. Give them a bonus to Charisma skills and interactions. Maybe even an extraordinary suggestive ability. (I think a Swashbuckler should only have (Ex) abilities).
Bonus feats for a combat style like the Spring Attack tree right up to Rapid Blitz.
Let them apply their Dexterity bonus to damge as well at higher levels.
And why not have them qualify as a Fighter of 4 levels lower?
A capstone please?


Well that's my 2cp. :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 04:10 PM
Throw feats at the problem. Enough feats solves all ills.

Eloel
2010-08-09, 04:15 PM
Throw feats at the problem. Enough feats solves all ills.

No, it doesn't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm)

Wings of Peace
2010-08-09, 04:18 PM
I think the idea of 'fixing' only arises on highly-optimized games.
When you have a low hp Wizard that mostly casts attack spells and a Cleric that just heals wounds, as is the case with most people stuck in the 2nd edition mindset or that actually follow the advice on the core books... then Ranger, Monk and Soulknife do not seem that weak. Seriously, nothing in D&D is prepared for fully optimized full-casters, they simply breeze through everything. It looks like the problem is with them, not with everything else...

That's not optimization that's just playing smart.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 04:21 PM
No, it doesn't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm)

Nah, not just "bonus feats from this list". Actual honest to goodness feats. The fighter feat list is lengthy, but is limited to very steriotypical fightery things. Adding real bonus feats would give the fighter both more power and more build variety.

Panigg
2010-08-09, 04:34 PM
Nah, not just "bonus feats from this list". Actual honest to goodness feats. The fighter feat list is lengthy, but is limited to very steriotypical fightery things. Adding real bonus feats would give the fighter both more power and more build variety.

Well damage/control/survival can be solved with more feats.

Specially damage is not a huge problem for a fighter.

LingVudka
2010-08-09, 04:36 PM
I agree Tyndmyr. Perhaps every 2nd or 3rd bonus Fighter feat can be taken as any feat? It would certainly allow more 'interesting' builds.

I do think as well that some of the Fighter feats could do with increasing in power as the Fighter levels up. There are so many homebrew adjustments though that it's difficult to really see what's nice. Perhaps a thread with all the specific homebrew Fighter feats and adjustments?

Greenish
2010-08-09, 05:31 PM
Swashbuckler -

I think Swashbucklers are just plain lucky at not getting screwed or if they are they should have unusual options for getting out of... whatever.
The ACF Shield of Blades is nice and I'm tempted to give it as well as the Dodge bonus.
Give Lucky more times/day. It's no more broken than a Clerics domain ability.
Swashbucklers are charming and silvertongued. Give them a bonus to Charisma skills and interactions. Maybe even an extraordinary suggestive ability. (I think a Swashbuckler should only have (Ex) abilities).
Bonus feats for a combat style like the Spring Attack tree right up to Rapid Blitz.
Let them apply their Dexterity bonus to damge as well at higher levels.
And why not have them qualify as a Fighter of 4 levels lower?
A capstone please?
No swashbuckler fix is complete without giving them at least the proficiency for bucklers, if not a special ability to swash them.

Roland St. Jude
2010-08-09, 05:36 PM
This thread seems to have quietened down and I hope I'm not too late but:
...

Sheriff of Moddingham: Technically, you're too late. This is Thread Necromancy. It seems to have generated discussion, so while it earns you a Warning not to do that again, I'll leave it open.

Fouredged Sword
2010-08-09, 05:46 PM
A swash is a kind of belt. It has a large buckle. The archtype swashbuckler buckles his swash, all the while wielding a rapier in one hand and nothing in the other.

I would grant them a dodge bonus while wielding a weapon finesse weapon in one hand an nothing else. Maybe level/4 as a doge bonus.

Ether that or give them the abilities of a factotum of level/2. That may be an interesting synergy.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-09, 05:56 PM
For Swashbucklers, I'd probably expand upon the Wall of Blades ACF from PHB2 due to how common rapiers were with the main gauche.

LingVudka
2010-08-09, 06:37 PM
Thank you Roland. :smallredface:


For Swashbucklers, I'd probably expand upon the Wall of Blades ACF from PHB2 due to how common rapiers were with the main gauche.

I'm interested to hear how you would expand upon it?


No swashbuckler fix is complete without giving them at least the proficiency for bucklers, if not a special ability to swash them

I totally agree. :smallbiggrin:
Special circumstances must apply, like hanging onto a ledge with a rum bottle in one hand (improvised weapon! O_o) a dagger between the teeth and about swing wildly down somewhere on a rope or some such. Might need another arm to do all that. :smallconfused:


I would grant them a dodge bonus while wielding a weapon finesse weapon in one hand an nothing else.

Nothing else?! That's a little daring. :smalleek:
Boots! Must have those big knee length boots for it to properly work.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-09, 06:51 PM
For the Wall of Blades, probably go with maybe a little more AC, allow two-for-one on AoOs, so you can use both your weapons at once, and maybe some more expansions on TWF.

LingVudka
2010-08-09, 06:59 PM
How would you expande TWF. I was intending to compact TWF a little so the first time it's taken you get a penalty to all attacks but get as many off hand attacks as primary hand up to a maximum of 3. I like the idea of using both weapons in AoO's but only if you have TWF and both weapons in hand.

I can imagine one of my players trying to get the TW AoO if they only had one weapon in hand and had Quick Draw but I don't think I'd allow that.

FMArthur
2010-08-09, 09:33 PM
How would you expande TWF. I was intending to compact TWF a little so the first time it's taken you get a penalty to all attacks but get as many off hand attacks as primary hand up to a maximum of 3. I like the idea of using both weapons in AoO's but only if you have TWF and both weapons in hand.

I can imagine one of my players trying to get the TW AoO if they only had one weapon in hand and had Quick Draw but I don't think I'd allow that.

You can't take free actions unless it's your turn anyway. Talking is a specific exception, not a general rule for free actions.

Thurbane
2010-08-09, 09:33 PM
I like the aura-based classes, but I think they need some love:


Marshal - full BAB is a no-brainer. Not sure what other boosts could be implemented? Maybe it's Major Aura needs to scale faster than it does.


Dragon Shaman - needs a better skill list and 4 skill points/level IMHO. Maybe better weapon/armor selection - possibly even full BAB. Also, breath weapon should be more like the DFAs - 1/round, instead of 1d4 round recharge.


...also, I believe the Binder is a great class, but could also do with 4 skill/points level: it has a decent skill list, but too few skill points to take much advantage of it.

FWIW, I don't think the Fighter is a lost cause. The PF version has some decent improvements. As with many other classes, needs it's skill list expanded (primary gaurd/sentry type has no Spot or Listen?). I really like the concept of a character who get's a bucketload of combat-related feats as it's "class feature". I would receommend expanding the Fighter Bonus Feat list a little, too...

LingVudka
2010-08-10, 02:31 AM
Good point FMArthur. I completely skipped over that.

@Thurbane: I've never really encountered the Binder or Marshal much but I do think the Marhsal is quite underpowered. Yeah full BAB is clearly a no brainer. I thought that they look like they're commanding officer types of Fighters instead of the seargent type that is in the PHB.


FWIW, I don't think the Fighter is a lost cause. The PF version has some decent improvements. As with many other classes, needs it's skill list expanded (primary gaurd/sentry type has no Spot or Listen?). I really like the concept of a character who get's a bucketload of combat-related feats as it's "class feature". I would receommend expanding the Fighter Bonus Feat list a little, too...

Couldn't agree more re: Spot & Listen. What feats would include in the FBF list? It's already huge. I like the concept of compacting a few of the feat trees a bit which could allow a Fighter to have alot of different styles of attack but would have slight penalties to them unless they took the advanced feats which remove said penalties and also give little boosts to other random things. Like why couldn't a Fighter hone their senses enough with Blind Fight to give 5 or 10ft blindsense at higher levels. Stuff like that.

sambo.
2010-08-10, 02:55 AM
broadening the "bonus feat" and class skills lists for fighters along with a healthy increase in skill-points/level would be a decent buff for the class.

JaronK
2010-08-10, 03:30 AM
I put together a reasonable Fighter fix a while ago. IIRC, some of the abilities it got (at various levels):

1: Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, and Knowledge: History added to class list (as these all make sense if Fighters are supposed to be Fighters, Military Leaders, and Experienced Combat Veterans). Also, 4+Int skills.

2) Fighters add 1/3 of their Fighter level to Trip, Grapple, Disarm, and Sunder attempts. Fighters are supposed to be well rounded in combat.

3) Get a bonus equal to your Fighter level to all knowledge checks to identify the strengths and weaknesses of a foe, and to obtain Strategic Advantages. All knowledge checks count as trained for these purposes. Fighters are supposed to know something about warfare and have fought a lot, so they ought to know the difference between a troll and a pixie.

4) Fighters get a bunch of floating bonus feats, similar to the Chameleon's feat except only off the Fighter list. They get one every 5 levels, and these can count as prerequisites for each other (but not for any other feat or class). Also, Fighters get the Weapon Aptitude ability currently found on Warblades. Fighters are supposed to be flexible, after all.

5) Fighters add their Con bonus to all saves at higher levels. They're tanks, not glass jawed goons.

JaronK

LingVudka
2010-08-10, 04:18 AM
Everyone seems to be in agreement that Fighters need more skill points and the skills to put them in.


2) Fighters add 1/3 of their Fighter level to Trip, Grapple, Disarm, and Sunder attempts. Fighters are supposed to be well rounded in combat.

I don't know about Trip but Sunder and Grapple sound good, definitely on Disarm and don't forget Bull Rush (which needs more to it). I think Trip is powerful enough as it is. I'd love to see Bull Rush doing something where you could slam an opponent into a wall, pillar or even another opponent and do extra damage. I mean pinning an opponent with your strength, weight and weapon against a solid object is going to be painful.

What about Fighters who use large bludgeoning weapons getting a Knockback ability where the opponent is hit to the edge of their reach and causes them to be prone (like Awesome Blow but one that actually works).

Mystic Muse
2010-08-10, 04:24 AM
Personally, I like classes that you don't Necessarily want to PRC or multiclass out of. Using a Prestige class or multiclassing should be an option to make a class more effective at something, not a requirement.

This is of course just my opinion and yours may differ. I don't have time to read the whole thread right now so I'm not sure if you've stated one of these yet.

I like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133737) Paladin fix personally. It makes me want to take it to twenty but it's not so good that I have to do so.

Coidzor
2010-08-10, 04:25 AM
I don't know about Trip but Sunder and Grapple sound good, definitely on Disarm and don't forget Bull Rush (which needs more to it). I think Trip is powerful enough as it is.

Well, without getting big, it's of limited utility against anything other than humanoids, and even then the way strength goes up with melee monsters...


I'd love to see Bull Rush doing something where you could slam an opponent into a wall, pillar or even another opponent and do extra damage. Isn't that the end of the Dungeoncrasher?

LingVudka
2010-08-10, 06:20 AM
Fair point Coidzor. I suppose I'm a little biased as I see Imp Trip always taken before the others.

I've never been exposed the Dungeoncrasher variant in a game so I don't really know about it. The little I've read about it seems like it's great at lower levels but doesn't really scale well.

With the Improved feats what's the biggest issues regarding Fighters that people have with them, if any. Namely Improved-

Bull Rush
Critical
Disarm
Feint
Grapple
Initiative
Overrun
Sunder
Trip
any I missed?


Does anyone think it a vialbe option to incorporate them into the Fighter class build. Or just figure out a way to scale them. If they're scaled I think it would be better to have the earlier choices be more powerful than the later choices. Opinions?

Emmerask
2010-08-10, 08:30 AM
I give monks psionic progression like psychic warriors, with those powers they really donīt need full bab or more feats :smallsmile:

The monk prcs get those progressions too except the enlightened and sacred fist. Arcane or divine progression on top of psionics would be too much (though in a high powered tier 1 tier 2 game it might be okay)

In addition it plays quite differently then the ua swordsage, while still being on roughly the same powerlevel (tier 3), so there are now plenty of options for monk type characters :smallcool:

Psyx
2010-08-10, 08:41 AM
I've always thought that the Ninja class needs sneak attack instead of sudden strike, for a start. And the 3rd level ACFs to sneak undead/other stuff. I can't see why anyone would even consider one otherwise.

It'd be so nice for Paladins to outperform clerics in their chosen role, too. Sadly, later products only seemed to widen the gap. Giving pallies the potential of casting as a free action for a feat was far too little, far too late.
I've also never seen a cleric played past 2nd level unless multiclassed with scout. That says quite a lot, too.

Giving Knights d12 hits was kind of insulting to Fighters, too.

And monks... full BAB surely shouldn't be too much to ask for?

I always feel that the tier system and balance issues are partly due to the fact that a lot of people focus on high-level play, or start play at the point where casters have started to be useful. If you play 1-12th level... heck maybe up to 14, then a lot of the awesomeness of the casters is tampered by their inability to be anything other that squishy meatbags for the first third of the campaign.




A swash is a kind of belt. It has a large buckle. The archtype swashbuckler buckles his swash, all the while wielding a rapier in one hand and nothing in the other.

You are of course joking.
I hope.

thompur
2010-08-10, 11:12 AM
Starting at 11th level, Fighters should reduce the penalty for iteritive attacks by 5, so full attack action at 11th would be +11/+11/+6.
Then another 5 at 16th level : +16/+16/+16/+11.

Also, fighters should get 4 skill points / level.

And all characters should be able to add 2 untrained skills to their skill list.

true_shinken
2010-08-10, 11:15 AM
{Scrubbed}

Pechvarry
2010-08-10, 04:47 PM
I've always thought that the Ninja class needs sneak attack instead of sudden strike, for a start. And the 3rd level ACFs to sneak undead/other stuff. I can't see why anyone would even consider one otherwise.


I always felt Ninja was cool because it was designed around sudden strike with a bunch of tools to attain sudden strike. Changing it to sneak attack takes out that synergy. Instead, I always felt it was the rest of their toys that need work (more ki uses, less restrictions on their use, etc).

Gametime
2010-08-10, 08:33 PM
If ninjas weren't nearly useless at dealing damage without the benefit of Sudden Strike, then it's status as a sometimes-achievable bonus would indeed be good game design. Arguably, that's a much stronger design than the actual state of precision damage. The problem is that the class is entirely reliant on getting Sudden Strike damage to contribute in any meaningful way to combat; making it more finicky than simple positioning forces the ninja to do lots of work just to achieve baseline competence.

sambo.
2010-08-10, 09:03 PM
Everyone seems to be in agreement that Fighters need more skill points and the skills to put them in.

no kidding.

by RAW, fighters have no kind of "perception" skills.

i would have thought that at the very least Spot and Listen would be fighter skills.

a fighter that blindly blunders around isn't going to last too long.

Pechvarry
2010-08-11, 02:43 AM
If ninjas weren't nearly useless at dealing damage without the benefit of Sudden Strike, then it's status as a sometimes-achievable bonus would indeed be good game design. Arguably, that's a much stronger design than the actual state of precision damage. The problem is that the class is entirely reliant on getting Sudden Strike damage to contribute in any meaningful way to combat; making it more finicky than simple positioning forces the ninja to do lots of work just to achieve baseline competence.

I don't mind that. They have good ideas with poor exection all throughout.

Go invisible and get your sudden strike. That's cool, but rather limited uses/day.

If ethereal, use the Ghost Strike class feature to complete the cycle but wait, move action charge up and only affects next single attack. This is exceedingly limited. If it were a passive trait: "as of X level, all weapons wielded are considered ghost touch", we'd be good to go.

And of course, Ki Dodge is almost entirely useless. 2 class features for those very few times where the only reason they're overcoming your invisibility is due to see invisible instead of the much more likely blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, etc.

So I like the concept of limiting their efficacy to setting up rare conditions along with the capacity to make them less rare. But in addition to the things I outlined above, there's a pretty glaring issue: this is all stuff other classes can do through magic.

I'd be interested in seeing a comparison between a Ninja and a Rogue sans UMD.

FMArthur
2010-08-11, 11:41 AM
There are a number of Shadow Hand maneuvers that help Ninjas a great deal. A two-level Swordsage dip after 6 levels in any other class will pay for the level-loss in Sneak Attack dice via Assassin's Stance and get you the Cloak of Deception boost, which is a Ghost Step that isn't limited per day (but requires full-round refreshing, making it bolster but not replace the Ninja ability). You get increasingly useful goodies depending on how long you delay the swordsage dip, though (something I dislike about ToB's otherwise good system). Shadow Hand-focused Swordsages may be inherently stronger than Ninjas and share the same general theme, but they don't do the same thing so I would never recommend fully replacing Ninja with Swordsage when someone wanted to play a Ninja.

Another thing to consider is taking the Sneak Attack fighter ACF (UA) and grabbing the Martial Stalker feat to still advance your Ki pool and AC bonus with your fighter levels. So if Sudden Strike and Ghost Step was all you wanted out of Ninja, this option really is superior in most ways. The Thug fighter variant (UA) is basically free (no tradeoff) when used with Sneak Attack fighter and is explicitly mentioned to work with it. Hit And Run Tactics (DotU) gives up a Fighter's armor proficiency (you don't use it) for a +2 to initiative and your Dex Mod to weapon damage on flat-footed foes. Nice!

Ninjas have lots of options that help them out and still let them do all the things you picked a Ninja to do.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-11, 11:46 AM
So I like the concept of limiting their efficacy to setting up rare conditions along with the capacity to make them less rare. But in addition to the things I outlined above, there's a pretty glaring issue: this is all stuff other classes can do through magic.

This was part of my reasoning behind the d20r rogue's rogue powers.

Greenish
2010-08-11, 12:23 PM
I've always thought that the Ninja class needs sneak attack instead of sudden strike, for a start. And the 3rd level ACFs to sneak undead/other stuff. I can't see why anyone would even consider one otherwise.Or you could just call your Rogue a ninja. Having "ninja" be a separate class when rogues can fill out most all of the stuff. At best, I'd make it a PrC for those who want the magical ninja magics.

Giving pallies the potential of casting as a free action for a feat was far too little, far too late.Battle Blessing allows for Swift action casting, to be exact.

I've also never seen a cleric played past 2nd level unless multiclassed with scout. That says quite a lot, too.:smallconfused: You mean rangers instead of clerics?
And monks... full BAB surely shouldn't be too much to ask for?Pathfinder almost did it, then balked at the last moment. PF monks functionally have full BAB for everything other than striking as a standard action.


I always feel that the tier system and balance issues are partly due to the fact that a lot of people focus on high-level play, or start play at the point where casters have started to be useful. If you play 1-12th level... heck maybe up to 14, then a lot of the awesomeness of the casters is tampered by their inability to be anything other that squishy meatbags for the first third of the campaign.Cleric and druid are both casters, too.

Psyx
2010-08-11, 12:30 PM
Yup; Ranger and Swift Action. My typos. I will hurl myself from my office window the moment I finish this reply.

I wouldn't touch a ninja with a bargepole, and of course your 'ninja' could be a rogue, but we're critiquing classes, rather than saying 'why did they even bother with this pile of dung, play X instead.'

Clerics and druids are a lot less squishy than most arcane casters, but until 5th level they are both poor fighters for most of the day. And clerics have a great spell-list, but at low level prior to magic items becoming more available, they get thumped with books by other players if they aren't using a lot of casting power on healing.

Emmerask
2010-08-11, 01:03 PM
Full bab is except for certain builds very much overrated.

With medium bab and a competent group you have very little trouble hitting most even Crīd +2 Monsters out of the MMs, even with your flurry of blows.
Sure it would help the first 3-5 levels but after that buffs and items become the dominant force behind hitting or not :smallwink:

All in all I donīt really think that full bab would help the monk all that much, the "only" thing it does help with is charge/power attacking and at that monks suck compared to barbarian, paladin or even fighters even if you gave them full bab.
Even a fighter would still outclass the monk if properly build due to having customizable feat selection :smallsmile:

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-11, 01:22 PM
I always feel that the tier system and balance issues are partly due to the fact that a lot of people focus on high-level play, or start play at the point where casters have started to be useful. If you play 1-12th level... heck maybe up to 14, then a lot of the awesomeness of the casters is tampered by their inability to be anything other that squishy meatbags for the first third of the campaign.

Core only: Glitterdust, sleep, color spray, entangle, grease, ray of enfeeblement, web, blindness/deafness. All first or second level spells. All of them able to either end the fight outright or make it nearly impossible for the enemy to win.

LingVudka
2010-08-13, 05:02 PM
I haven't seen on the Tier system or discussed here but what are people's opinions about the Wilder and its Tier? :smallconfused:

I'm thinking it's mid to high Tier 4, possibly Tier 3. But I don't really know how to fully optimise a Wilder.

Thurbane
2010-08-13, 05:47 PM
Core only: Glitterdust, sleep, color spray, entangle, grease, ray of enfeeblement, web, blindness/deafness. All first or second level spells. All of them able to either end the fight outright or make it nearly impossible for the enemy to win.
But at low levels, a caster can only use those a handful of times/day. The disparity between casters and non-casters doesn't kick in fully until mid-high levels. Psyx is correct in saying that full casters (arcanists) are pretty squishy in their lower levels, and depend heavily on other characters during the course of an adventuring day.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-13, 05:51 PM
I always felt Ninja was cool because it was designed around sudden strike with a bunch of tools to attain sudden strike. Changing it to sneak attack takes out that synergy. Instead, I always felt it was the rest of their toys that need work (more ki uses, less restrictions on their use, etc).

I agree that the ninja could definately use more Ki options, and perhaps have those options rewritten as Ki feats... granting the ninja bonus Ki feats as they level.

Ninja Brew Jutsu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161863)

Feat Ninja Variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9064991)

Wings of Peace
2010-08-13, 06:08 PM
Replace Fighter with Generic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm). No, seriously.

LingVudka
2010-08-13, 07:27 PM
Replace Fighter with Generic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm). No, seriously.

Totally agree. I think I'll do that with my group.

gallagher
2010-08-13, 08:12 PM
Totally agree. I think I'll do that with my group.
so it is a fighter, subtract the tower shield proficiency, but you get to choose your own skill list???

that sounds incredibly.... incredibly useful. Autohypnosis, tumble, hide, move silently, jump. done

Fax Celestis
2010-08-13, 08:16 PM
so it is a fighter, subtract the tower shield proficiency, but you get to choose your own skill list???

that sounds incredibly.... incredibly useful. Autohypnosis, tumble, hide, move silently, jump. done

You lose Heavy Armor Proficiency too, but you get to choose your good save.

gallagher
2010-08-13, 08:21 PM
You lose Heavy Armor Proficiency too, but you get to choose your good save.heck, heavy armor isnt that great after the first few levels. at level 5, tops, i should be getting mithral armor. if AC is that important to me and its low level, i can sword and board for a while and have a handy-dandy rogue flanking. at higher levels i will be using miss chances and an animated tower shield or something to keep me safe.

so Will save it is

Gnomo
2010-08-13, 08:27 PM
I gave the Fighter in my games:
d12 Hit Die
4+Int. Mod. skill points per level
A feat every dead level, that doesn't have to be necessarily a fighter bonus feat

Swashbuckler:
Proficiency with light and heavy shields
Uncanny dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge
A bonus to Initiative equal to the Grace bonus
Improved Critical with all fineasseable weapons
New re-rolls per day

Monk:
d10 Hit Die
Full base attack bonus but no flurry
An attack as a swift action with a -5 penalty that goes away at 11th level
More uses per day of abundant step

Rogue:
d8 Hit Die
Sneak Strike: Sneak attack for half damage against enemies immune to critical hits.
Trap Sense bonus to Initiative

Barbarian:
d12+1 Hit Die
Extra 10 feet of land speed while in Rage
Trap Sense bonus to Reflex Saves all the time while in Rage
Mettle while in Rage
Immortal Fury: Immunity to death attacks while in Rage

Ranger:
Same Animal Companion as a Druid of his Ranger level
Caster level equals to his Ranger level -3 instead of half his Ranger level
Both combat styles at the same time
Further combat styles bonuses

Paladin:
4 + Int. Mod. skill points per level
Caster level equals to his Paladin level -3 instead of half his Paladin level
Protection Aura: spending a turn attempt can grant his allies a bonus on all saves equal to his bonus on the turn check.
Double the Lay on Hands healing points

Ninja:
d8 Hit Die
For every hour that passes the Ninja recovers 1 spent ki point
Add acrobatics bonus to Initiative
Shadow Clones: Mirror Image spending 1 ki point as a swift action
Shadow Pin: Hold Monster spending 1 ki point as a standard action with concentration to maintain
Suplantation: Teleports up to his land speed as an immediate action spending 1 ki point, leaves a Silent Image of himself on the spot for 1 round

FMArthur
2010-08-14, 12:29 AM
so it is a fighter, subtract the tower shield proficiency, but you get to choose your own skill list???

that sounds incredibly.... incredibly useful. Autohypnosis, tumble, hide, move silently, jump. done

Your bonus feats can be ANY feats. Making it even better at dips for actual classes that have class features. :smalltongue:

Gnomo
2010-08-14, 08:32 PM
I don't think that's the case, and even if you turn the Fighter into a 3 levels dip class from a 2 levels dip class, you have gotten a slighter more balanced class.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-14, 08:40 PM
Your bonus feats can be ANY feats. Making it even better at dips for actual classes that have class features. :smalltongue:

Don't forget it gets class features for feats:
1) Evasion
2) Favored Enemy: +2
3) Sneak attack: +2d6
4) Uncanny Dodge
5) improved Sneak attack: +3d6 instead of +2d6
6) Greater Sneak attack: +4d6 instead of +3d6

nyarlathotep
2010-08-14, 08:58 PM
You could always play pathfinder. :smallbiggrin:

Or just use the new classes in a 3.5 game.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-14, 09:32 PM
He could use the iron Heroes version of Fighter (Man at Arms).
They get good saves (defense bonus).
At lv 5 and every 5 levels after, they get Wild Card ability. A bonus feat you can change each day.
They (get 6 + Int) skills points. You get 3 skill groups (condensed skills like Pathfinder).