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PersonMan
2010-05-28, 02:29 PM
Alright, I'm going be attending a game tomorrow and one of the players will...probably not be there. I want to be ready to solo the adventure.

So far I'm playing a Clericzilla-type character who has taken the Healing domain to cover heals. I'd like to know what other sort of character I should have to cover all of my bases. I'm thinking of a spellcaster of some sort, but I'm not really sure. I'm pretty sure that traps won't be a problem, and it looks like this is going to be a combat-heavy game. We're ECL 9 with 32 point-buy for stats and full WBL. I have Core+Drow of the Underdark, the MMs3-5 and the Complete Arcane. The DM has most of the Completes, so I can use stuff from there as well.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 02:34 PM
A skillmonkey and/or party face would be nice, depending on how many traps and/or social encounters you intend to deal with.

A Beguiler or Factotum can cover both bases with ease.

EDIT: Just noticed there won't be many traps. How is the social front?

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 02:34 PM
You don't need a dedicated healer.

Factotum(Dungeonscape) is a nice choice, it can do almost everything, just not as good. They can do some things better then anyone else though.

Binder also gives a lot of versatility, as well as being very flavorful.

Tier 1's can give you most of what you want, Druid, artificier, wizard etc.

Edit: I second the Beguiler, that one's also pretty awesome. You just have to hope your DM doesn't love Undead or other creatures immune to mind effecting spells.

strider24seven
2010-05-28, 02:35 PM
A Factotum is a great party member out of the box, but you would need Dungeonscape. Edit: ninja'd, but the Factotum can do most things better than anyone else, except for spellcasting by virtue of having Int to EVERYTHING. Including Initiative and battlefield control techniques like Bull Rush and Trip.

You can't go wrong with a Wizard, although in a smaller party a gish would work better. Especially if you go Jade Phoenix Mage or Swiftblade with a Warblade dip, if you can get a hold of ToB, that is. Otherwise, I recommend a Wizard/Swiftblade, possibly with a Fighter dip.

If you have access to the SRD, then Psion is an excellent alternative to Wizard, especially if you take the Slayer and (later) Elocater PrC's. Makes for a wonderful, versatile psi-gish.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 02:36 PM
Binder also gives a lot of versatility, as well as being very flavorful.


Just wanted to point out that if flavor is an issue, Clerics don't usually get along with Binders :smalltongue:

deuxhero
2010-05-28, 02:37 PM
Wizard/focused specialist/Malconvoker (ban enchantment and illusion as they will be redudent, evocation can also go if you are a focused) and Beguiler 19/mindbender 1.

Telonius
2010-05-28, 02:37 PM
Skillmonkey and arcane... maybe Artificer? You probably have melee pretty well taken care of, so I'd shy away from Druid.

PersonMan
2010-05-28, 02:39 PM
Just wanted to point out that if flavor is an issue, Clerics don't usually get along with Binders :smalltongue:

Clerics don't usually have 1/2 Farspawn in their lineage. I'm playing what is basically the Aasimar for 1/2 Farspawn, so...I'm not really worried about flavor issues.

As for the social front...Well, I'm pretty sure I can get by without a dedicated face.

Also, if my responses come slowly it's because I'm building the Cleric now.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-28, 02:40 PM
A human ranger with good charisma. Use the extra skill humans get for Diplomacy/Gather Info, and the good charisma gives high wild empathy (avoid fighting dire animals) and good bonuses to relevant interpersonal skills. Rangers also have good wisdom, so that allows for an acceptable sense motive. Finally, they're a good combat class, and you can't have the healer doing all the fighting.
If you want a spellcaster, use a wizard. More versitality than sorcerers.
-Xavez

Greenish
2010-05-28, 02:41 PM
With just two people, you won't have action advantage too often.

Enter Malconvoker (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0).

[Edit]: Meh, swordsage'd.

you can't have the healer doing all the fighting.Why not? Clericzilla > Tokyo.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-28, 02:41 PM
Seriously, another spellcaster, preferably Arcane, seems about right. With two people a Necromancer of some sort wouldn't go amiss, raise and/or cripple enemies, laugh as you and their former allies beat them down whilst they're Exhausted/Negative Level-ed/Fear-affected/Sickened/Nauseated/otherwise useless. You look to be on the right lines so I'll be on my way now.

Eldariel
2010-05-28, 02:41 PM
Druid and Cleric (if web enhancements are allowed for the Kobold-domain), or Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer. Druid is the most meat you can get for one character, also covering all the key perceptional skills, and Sense Motive with a feat or one-level dip, while Unseen Seer covers everything else. No reason to drop under Tier 1 here. Indeed, this is just the kind of a scenario where Tier 1 really is the way to go.

As you're the Cleric, I'd look into Cloistered and handling traps and some skill monkery. You don't want Healing-domain for healing; Mass Lesser Vigor (in Complete Divine) Persisted combined with Heal- and Revivify-scrolls is all you need.

Amphetryon
2010-05-28, 02:42 PM
Druid + Beguiler would be my first choice, if restricted to 2 only characters.

PersonMan
2010-05-28, 02:44 PM
I think I'll go with Druid. Two fullcasters and a fighter. Pretty nice deal for two characters.

EDIT: Speaking of casters, what are some good 0th level Cleric/Druid spells?

ScionoftheVoid, I saw your white text. Thanks for the help :P

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-28, 02:46 PM
With just two people, you won't have action advantage too often.

Enter Malconvoker (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0).

[Edit]: Meh, swordsage'd.
Why not? Clericzilla > Tokyo.

Well, I just assumed cleric with some combat capabilities. What is a Clericzilla?
-Xavez

PersonMan
2010-05-28, 02:48 PM
Well, I just assumed cleric with some combat capabilities. What is a Clericzilla?
-Xavez

As far as I know, a CoDzilla build is a Cleric or Druid who focuses on buffing themselves into...well, CoDzillas during combat.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-28, 02:49 PM
ScionoftheVoid, I saw your white text. Thanks for the help :P

I altered the advice after seeing something about traps not being a problem. I'm not much good at this stuff, but I can copy and adapt previous advice well enough.

Eldariel
2010-05-28, 02:49 PM
I think I'll go with Druid. Two fullcasters and a fighter. Pretty nice deal for two characters.

EDIT: Speaking of casters, what are some good 0th level Cleric/Druid spells?

ScionoftheVoid, I saw your white text. Thanks for the help :P

It's hard not to notice white text when it extends the post by a couple of empty lines before signature, something the board doesn't otherwise allow. May be prudent to write 'em after lines with other text to really have a chance at concealing anything.

And Orisons? Detect Magic, Read Magic, Purify X & Y, some such. Guidance and such can be useful for skills if you don't have other buffs overlapping with them yet. Light and Create Water can have uses too.

EDIT: For Druid, Dawn and Naturewatch [Spell Compendium] are both somewhat useful too. With Orisons, it's more of a matter of "what you might imagine you need" than "what you expect to use regularly". Only Detect Magic is something you'll probably cast with some regularity, and that's if you don't have it Permanencied or from some object already.

Amphetryon
2010-05-28, 02:50 PM
Well, I just assumed cleric with some combat capabilities. What is a Clericzilla?
-Xavez

Colloquially, ClericZilla refers to any Cleric that is able to be a better fighter than the classes that are supposed to be good at it.

Typically, it refers to Clerics that take advantage of DMM: Persistent Spell in order to buff themselves up to the stratosphere.

Originally, it was a phrase coined by Radical Taoist on WotC as a counter to any DM who complained about a specific splatbook being too cheesy, because core Cleric and/or Druid is more powerful out of the box than most any non-theoretical build that is based on extra splat books.

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 02:50 PM
I think I'll go with Druid. Two fullcasters and a fighter. Pretty nice deal for two characters.

EDIT: Speaking of casters, what are some good 0th level Cleric/Druid spells?

ScionoftheVoid, I saw your white text. Thanks for the help :P

Cloistered Cleric with the domain that grants trapfinding? :smallbiggrin:

All you'd need then is, eh... A face? Druid will fill that role if necesary, I think. :smallconfused:

PersonMan
2010-05-28, 02:51 PM
I don't really need light, due to Darkvision. I know it can be useful, but I think I'll prepare something else.

Note: I also have the SpC.

Eldariel
2010-05-28, 02:53 PM
Oh, and Summon Holy Symbol [CChamp] is obviously a rather useful Cleric orison for...unexpected circumstances. Worth having one prepared.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-28, 02:59 PM
I think I'll go with Druid. Two fullcasters and a fighter. Pretty nice deal for two characters.

EDIT: Speaking of casters, what are some good 0th level Cleric/Druid spells?

ScionoftheVoid, I saw your white text. Thanks for the help :P

Detect magic. Create Water. Mending. Open/Close. That sort of stuff.
-Xavez

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-28, 03:02 PM
It's hard not to notice white text when it extends the post by a couple of empty lines before signature, something the board doesn't otherwise allow. May be prudent to write 'em after lines with other text to really have a chance at concealing anything.

The post has to be at least as long as the avatar of the poster, I was hoping it was short enough to appear to be that Looking through even this thread, I appear to have remembered incorrectly. I'm going back to remove the colour tags now though, wasn't a particularly good joke in the first place.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 03:04 PM
Detect magic. Create Water. Mending. Open/Close. That sort of stuff.
-XavezOoh, create water. You can drown someone with that. Of course, first you have to render the target helpless and force the water into it's lungs.

Eldariel
2010-05-28, 03:24 PM
The post has to be at least as long as the avatar of the poster, I was hoping it was short enough to appear to be that Looking through even this thread, I appear to have remembered incorrectly. I'm going back to remove the colour tags now though, wasn't a particularly good joke in the first place.

You should disable your signature in posts where you use hidden text; it'll work better that way :smallwink:

Geez, here I am telling people how to hide text meant to be found in posts more efficiently... Seriously now.

Draz74
2010-05-28, 04:51 PM
Geez, here I am telling people how to hide text meant to be found in posts more efficiently... Seriously now.

Bored much? :smallamused:


Druid + Beguiler would be my first choice, if restricted to 2 only characters.

Agreed, in a campaign where social is going to be a significant element (and undead is not going to be an overwhelming element).

If either of those qualifications is untrue, I'd think about shifting to something else ... like Swordsage and Archivist (or Cloistered Cleric), or ClericZilla and Factotum.

nedz
2010-05-28, 05:27 PM
Ranger is pretty versatile.
Good skills, esp spot & listen & stealth
Reasonable Melle
Some spells
Companion for extra action

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 05:36 PM
Ranger is pretty versatile.
Good skills, esp spot & listen & stealth
Reasonable Melle
Some spells
Companion for extra action

A class needs more then versatility, they need to be able to do so succesfully. :smallbiggrin:

World Eater
2010-05-28, 05:38 PM
Two bards.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 05:41 PM
A class needs more then versatility, they need to be able to do so succesfully. :smallbiggrin:Meh, you can turn them into pretty decent mini-druids. Toss combat style feats for wild shape, toss AC for mystic ranger, grab SotAO. Get Wild Cohort for non-gimped pet if it tickles your fancy.

Seatbelt
2010-05-28, 05:49 PM
Two bards.

walk in to a bar.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 05:51 PM
walk in to a bar.The other one

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 05:52 PM
The other one

ducked!

*bows*

Boci
2010-05-28, 05:57 PM
Two bards.

Yeah, maybe they can get a discount for ordering two coffins.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 06:01 PM
Yeah, maybe they can get a discount for ordering two coffins.Or maybe they're using Diplomacy as per RAW and conquer the world with their hordes of fanatics.

Boci
2010-05-28, 06:04 PM
Or maybe they're using Diplomacy as per RAW and conquer the world with their hordes of fanatics.

Not if I'm the DM. Or any of my friends for that matter. Bard hate sure it common here in Scotland.

PersonMan
2010-05-28, 06:06 PM
Great. Well, thanks guys, but the uncooperative player was looking on these forums and found this thread, and I've received information that he's copying my build...

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-28, 06:06 PM
Ooh, create water. You can drown someone with that. Of course, first you have to render the target helpless and force the water into it's lungs.

Or prevent dying of thirst in a desert/on the ocean.
-Xavez

arguskos
2010-05-28, 06:07 PM
Great. Well, thanks guys, but the uncooperative player was looking on these forums and found this thread, and I've received information that he's copying my build...
Wait seriously? Suck. :smallyuk:

PersonMan
2010-05-28, 06:11 PM
PM me if you have any advise. Thanks.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 06:23 PM
Not if I'm the DM. Or any of my friends for that matter. Bard hate sure it common here in Scotland.Scotland? Cool place, but bards are awesome, actually.

Or prevent dying of thirst in a desert/on the ocean.
-XavezOnly pathetic meatbags die to thirst. Play warforged!

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 06:49 PM
Cant if your not in eberron. LOL or at least thats my DM's logic.

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 06:51 PM
Cant if your not in eberron. LOL or at least thats my DM's logic.

Nonsense, you're an awakened golem!

Greenish
2010-05-28, 06:52 PM
Cant if your not in eberron.May I cant even though I am in Eberron?

Lord Loss
2010-05-28, 06:59 PM
Clericzilla + Wilshaping Druid allows you to do anything. Including recreate any Godzilla movie.

Seriously though, this would work well.

Os1ris09
2010-05-28, 07:02 PM
May I cant even though I am in Eberron?

LOL ok bad wording. But you get my point.

@ Ferrin: Am I a flesh golem? or stone golem?

PersonMan
2010-05-28, 07:15 PM
Alright, conflict resolved. The other player backed down after a direct verbal confrontation, and he's now playing...an Arcane Archer. Had he not done what he just did, I'd have warned him about the fail in the class.

Boci
2010-05-28, 07:18 PM
Scotland? Cool place, but bards are awesome, actually.

Yeah there are some pretty cool bard builds, but the core bard wasn't really anything special, and that is what stayed in most people's mind.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 07:26 PM
Yeah there are some pretty cool bard builds, but the core bard wasn't really anything special, and that is what stayed in most people's mind.Core bard was/is a lot better than core fighter or core monk.

Devils_Advocate
2010-05-28, 07:48 PM
So, just to be clear, if the other player doesn't show, you get to play two characters? That seems clearly implied, but "solo" seems like a strange word to use to describe that scenario, so I'm sort of confused.


So far I'm playing a Clericzilla-type character who has taken the Healing domain to cover heals.
Clerics fill the healer role just fine by default. (Even negative-energy-channeling clerics, really, since undead minions are healed by inflict spells, not cures.) The Healing domain is great if you really want to specialize a cleric into that role -- That's what it's for -- but if you're looking to expand the limited options of a two-character group, it seems like an odd choice. I'd look to domains like Magic and Travel for that.


I'd like to know what other sort of character I should have to cover all of my bases.
Depends on which bases you want to cover. You seem to be indicating that the usual skill-monkey stuff isn't a concern. Given your description of the game as probably "combat-heavy", are you looking to cover all of your bases within the relatively narrow field of killing things, so as to ensure that you're prepared to kill whatever you might have to kill?


Use the extra skill humans get for Diplomacy/Gather Info
Humans get bonus skill points, not an extra class skill. Perhaps you are thinking of the Human Paragon class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon)?

Why you'd recommend turning a Ranger of all things into a social character I have no clue. Yeah, Rangers do get Bluff and Sense Motive bonuses against their favored enemies, but that's mostly a weird quirk of the rules, because social interaction with intelligent beings is generally not something that that class is set up for at all. The relevant character archetype is that of an isolated survivalist who lives in the wild and gets along better with animals than with people, and that's by and large what the Ranger's class features support.

The swashbuckler is archetypal the face/combatant adventure character. A Rogue or a Bard can fill this role. A Ranger/Telepath/Illithid Slayer could perhaps fulfill those functions in a rather unconventional way. A Paladin has the Diplomacy and Sense Motive skills and gets other significant benefits out of a high Charisma score. But straight Ranger? What? That's... really playing against type, there. Even Barbarians and Fighters at least get Intimidate!


you can't have the healer doing all the fighting.
Sure you can. In-combat healing is generally for chumps. Every action spent casting a healing spell is an action not spent directly hastening an enemy's defeat and thereby preventing further damage to one's team. If a monster is doing a lot of damage that needs to be healed, then the goal at hand is to solve that problem: to put a halt to the monster's attacks. Cure spells just treat the symptom, not the disease, so to speak, which is often not the best medical approach.


What is a Clericzilla?
"It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill. So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions."
— Radical Taoist


Great. Well, thanks guys, but the uncooperative player was looking on these forums and found this thread, and I've received information that he's copying my build...
You didn't really even post a build yet. Was he able to see it via other means?

If he was just also going to work off of the concept of "combat cleric", I'd have just let him, personally. The characters probably wouldn't have wound up as exact clones of each other. Might even be interesting to see how the different interpretations of the idea compared. And two clerics makes a workable party, really.


the core bard wasn't really anything special
I don't see how it's any less special than the average core class.

Thurbane
2010-05-28, 08:37 PM
Cleric, plus a Dvati Dragonfire Adept, with Entangling Exhalation. Two entangling breath weapons per round...kinda violates the spirit of a "two-person" party, though. :smalltongue:

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-29, 08:42 AM
Bard hate sure it common here in Scotland.

I know what you mean. I once decided to play as a Bard in a one-shot adventure. We started outside a tavern called "Kill the Bard" (the DM made the tavern name after knowing who was playing what). Everyone in the party was trying to convince the people of the tavern that someone else in the party (not always my character) was a Bard. Eventually I was cornered by every person in the place. Luckily the DM didn't look up the penalties to Bluff when my character yelled "You're all Bards!". Everyone but the barman believed me and killed themselves and/or one another. The game ended before the barman could do anything but I still think that's one of the best actions I've every succeeded in in-character. Mass murder with three non-magical words at level one (or two, I can't remember).

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 08:46 AM
LOL ok bad wording. But you get my point.

@ Ferrin: Am I a flesh golem? or stone golem?

A medium size iron golem with sentience and Warforged stats. :smallbiggrin:

Gamerlord
2010-05-29, 08:49 AM
Cleric and druid, healing each other while turning the enemy into mangled shreds of what appears to be flesh.